New Ashenzari redesign


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 797

Joined: Sunday, 23rd June 2013, 15:20

Post Saturday, 27th February 2021, 13:56

New Ashenzari redesign

Greetings, new overhauled Ash has arrived in trunk. A major redesign, abilities got shifted around: scrying now comes last instead of first. On exploration you get offered curses, which give you the opportunity to curse an item, which becomes the source of two random skill boosts. You get an ability to destroy the cursed item, which also drops piety. For example:

h - the cursed ring of the All-Knowing (left tentacle) {rCorr, Erth, Xbow}
l - the cursed amulet of Ashenzari's Prison (around mantle) {Reflect SH+5, Maces, Erth}
E - the cursed ring of Ashenzari's Hedonism (right tentacle) {Slay+4, Erth, Sbl}
I - the cursed ring of Ashenzari's Vision (on tentacle) {rPois rC+ Will+, Dodge, Shld}


Feedback:

I am a major Ash user and worship her on at least 80% of games. This has so far made Ash absolutely unusable. In the game of which the example is from, I worshipped on D:5 on a delver: as early as possible. I am at **, after uncursing a single item in Lair:2. I also have gotten a single item that actually gives me a skill boost, Dodge+Shield, also rather late.

Compared to old Ash, the skill boost got to me 5 or 6 fully explored level too late; I also am missing out on weapon skill boost.

Random skill boost is simply not acceptable. Old Ash was the goddess of reliability and consistency with the trap stuff and the scrying. New Ash is extremely random. My first offer was for Mace+Necromancy, which I was not using at all!

Scrying as piety cap ability is fine. Destroy item on uncurse is fine. Zero selection on skill boost is simply unacceptable, it needs at least a gozaq like selection of different options. Also a Ru style "Reject Curse" option would be of benefit.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 245

Joined: Thursday, 27th November 2014, 19:12

Post Saturday, 27th February 2021, 14:46

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

When talking about trunk it's best to include a version string from your game and the server you're playing on, since things tend to change rapidly.

For example, earlier today I increased the curse rate to speed piety gain, but we have no way of knowing if your feedback is based on the old speed (which got a lot of "this is too slow" feedback) or if the new speed is also playing very slow.

Re: Rejecting Curse; again things are updated such that the new curse will arrive at the same time interval no matter what you do. (The new curse skills will replace the old ones.) The only thing that resets the timer is destroying a cursed item.

The completely random skills was a first draft of coupling the curse's benefits more tightly to a single curse, more changes to come.

vt

Halls Hopper

Posts: 79

Joined: Saturday, 7th December 2019, 17:58

Post Saturday, 27th February 2021, 23:31

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Can we please have explanations of what 'cun' 'bglg' etc. mean in terms of specific skills boosted in character dumps?

It looks like the correspondence is already printed in in-game item descriptions.

It is relevant for understanding the state of a character. Currently it seems (assuming you don't have this info memorized) if you want to see which of multiple cursed items are giving which skill boosts for a character in a dump, your best bet is to go code diving for the correspondences.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1243

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Saturday, 27th February 2021, 23:52

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

It looks like in the latest version, rather than completely random skills, you now get boosts to groups of skills:

Melee: all melee combat skills
Ranged: all ranged combat skills
Fortitude: Armour and Shields
Cunning: Dodging and Stealth
Elements: Air, Earth, Fire, and Ice Magic
Alchemy: Transmutations and Poison Magic
Beguiling: Conjurations, Hexes, and Translocations
Companions: Necromancy and Summonings
Self: Fighting and Spellcasting
Evocations: Evocations.

So I'd guess "cun" is cunning and "bglg" is beguiling.

It looks interesting, but I think I'll wait until things are a bit more stable before trying it.

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vt

Halls Hopper

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Joined: Saturday, 7th December 2019, 17:58

Post Sunday, 28th February 2021, 00:23

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

I mean I know how to look it up in the source code. I didn't mean someone please tell me here what they mean, I meant that it should be easier for anyone to tell without looking at code or a spoiler, loading up wizmode and getting god gifts, etc.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Sunday, 28th February 2021, 06:44

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Yeah, the initial version of the rework was a bit too much of a crapshoot, IMO. It was a neat idea to spend a useless curse on an expendable item just for piety, but that only paid off if you could follow it up with a useful curse. But, I couldn't be happier with the overall design direction, and I'm super eager to try out the new categories system.

I'm not sold on the 4-tile range for scrying, though... it encourages standing around waiting for monsters to move within range. I'd suggest setting the range to # of piety stars + 1, or just making it full LoS once obtained. I think players would still try for ****** just for skill boosts, at least until they found an unrandart they wanted to use while planning on eventual abandonment.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Sunday, 28th February 2021, 10:00

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Just noticed amulets of faith are marked as unusable. Seems like they could increase rate curse offerings when worn, similar to Ru, no? Granted, faster curse offerings can be a bad thing if a good curse is offered but no uncursed equipment is available... but in that case, players could just choose to take it off, yes?

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Sunday, 28th February 2021, 13:49

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

vt wrote:I mean I know how to look it up in the source code. I didn't mean someone please tell me here what they mean, I meant that it should be easier for anyone to tell without looking at code or a spoiler, loading up wizmode and getting god gifts, etc.


In the latest version, the categories are explained when viewing the details of the Curse Item ability or a cursed item. Seems like an optimal solution to me.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 07:55

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Seems Ash in version 0.27-a0-463 is most useful for combat mages. Gaining bonuses to magic skills isn't really valuable unless the character has high Int, and a pure mage is probably better off going Sif Muna for Channel and guaranteed access to high-level spells. Combat mages have the high Int needed to make use of Ash's magic skill bonuses and have the demand for massive widespread skill investment that Ash fulfills, and they're able to make use of the majority of curses offered, so they're much less likely to die while waiting for a chance to raise piety.

I thought maybe Ash would help out some of the more hopeless build concepts... Deep Elf Arcane Marksman, summoners in general, etc.... but, that was rather foolish, considering Ash is rarely generated on D:1, and it takes a while to roll a helpful curse on more focused builds. Also, Ash doesn't gift ammo.

Seems like a pretty niche god, but a very helpful one to that niche.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Joined: Monday, 24th April 2017, 11:46

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 08:23

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Nekoatl wrote:considering Ash is rarely generated on D:1

Which God ever is?
Maɟaŋ

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 08:40

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Trog, Lugonu (sort of), and Xom. There used to be more, but these 3 are all that remain.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 09:46

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Maybe magic skills (excluding spellcasting) should all be lumped into a single category? I mean, it's a lot of skills, but there are natural limits on spell usage that would seem to make it unlikely that players would benefit from more than a few. The biggest advantage would be that it would boost each school of each multi-school spell, but with spell competency being divided by number of schools, maybe that isn't as big a deal as it might seem. This would make curse selection much easier for characters with low Int and would help bring mages of different types more in line with each other (right now, mages whose multi-school spells fall within a single category, like Conjurers, stand to gain more than those with a mix, like Hedge Wizards).

Zot Zealot

Posts: 931

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 09:50

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Nekoatl wrote:Seems Ash in version 0.27-a0-463 is most useful for combat mages. Gaining bonuses to magic skills isn't really valuable unless the character has high Int, and a pure mage is probably better off going Sif Muna for Channel and guaranteed access to high-level spells. Combat mages have the high Int needed to make use of Ash's magic skill bonuses and have the demand for massive widespread skill investment that Ash fulfills, and they're able to make use of the majority of curses offered, so they're much less likely to die while waiting for a chance to raise piety.

I thought maybe Ash would help out some of the more hopeless build concepts... Deep Elf Arcane Marksman, summoners in general, etc.... but, that was rather foolish, considering Ash is rarely generated on D:1, and it takes a while to roll a helpful curse on more focused builds. Also, Ash doesn't gift ammo.

Seems like a pretty niche god, but a very helpful one to that niche.


How is any of this changed by the Ash redesign? It all also applies to the old Ash. Who was great for pure magic mages BTW, the spell success (and spell power) bonus was better even than Vehm, and the flexibility offered by *transfer skill* could make up for the lack of book gifts. Seeing where enemies are is also great for a mage who likes to blast everything when it's far away (and doesn't like to be surprised when walking around corners).

I'm slighly worried the current redesign reduces the flexibility that was so characteristic of Ash, but I haven't encountered actual problems in actual games.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1243

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 11:12

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

If I understand correctly, new Ash can now boost unarmed combat, which was never possible with old Ash, which could be interesting for transmuters.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 12:15

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

That's correct, though most species won't be able to reach full piety while unarmed. How much that matters to a transmuter may vary.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 15:46

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

petercordia wrote:How is any of this changed by the Ash redesign?


Old Ash was good for pretty much any character that didn't use unarmed combat, but better for non-magic users because you could leave all your ring slots uncursed for resistance swapping. Old Ash was also more predictable in what skills you would able to boost when, assuming the game actually felt like generating the needed scrolls, you could count on specific competency boosts at specific times, regardless of how many skill boosts you were actually interested in.

New Ash is more versatile in theory, because of more potential skill offerings, and not having skills tied to specific slots (esp. rings). But, in practice, new Ash is much more helpful to builds that can more consistently make use of the offered curses, which means the fewer skills you're using, the less likely Ash is to be helpful.

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Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 16:01

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Giving a flat bonus per instance of a category would seem to heavily advantage species with more equipment slots. To keep overall power level consistent, I suggest linking total skill bonus potency directly to piety and distribute that bonus among skills proportionately based on curse count.

E.g. a felid wearing a ring cursed with Cunning and Melee, an amulet cursed with Beguiling and Melee, and an uncursed ring would have:

1/3 bonus to Melee because (2/4) x (4/6)
1/6 bonus to Cunning because (1/4) x (4/6)
1/6 bonus to Beguiling because (1/4) x (4/6)

whereas one wearing 3 pieces of jewellery with Cunning and Melee would have:

1/2 bonus to Melee because (3/6) x (6/6)
1/2 bonus to Cunning because (3/6) x (6/6)

vt

Halls Hopper

Posts: 79

Joined: Saturday, 7th December 2019, 17:58

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 20:22

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Nekoatl wrote:In the latest version, the categories are explained when viewing the details of the Curse Item ability or a cursed item. Seems like an optimal solution to me.


I realize the information is available in game. I am asking for it to *also* be printed in the character dump in the item description, just as it is in the in game item description, so it is comprehensible when you are looking at a character dump without having to load up a game, look at spoilers, look at the source code, or memorize the correspondences. I really think it was not that unclear.

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andrew

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1243

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 22:11

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

The latest updates remove the skill boosts from melded equipment, so it just got a lot less interesting for transmuters (other than octopodes.)

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 23:01

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Maybe I'm missing something, but that would seem to make it potentially more interesting? I mean, you can put bonuses to Transmutations on the equipment that'll get melded, and bonuses to fighting on equipment that won't, right? But maybe the timing won't always work out so well for that.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1243

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Monday, 1st March 2021, 23:25

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

I guess when I said "interesting", I really meant "strong" - this change makes Ash weaker for transmuters than for characters that can use all the bonuses all the time.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Sunday, 11th September 2016, 17:21

Post Tuesday, 2nd March 2021, 02:37

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

That's true if Ash is weaker for species that naturally have fewer equipment slots, or if merged equipment gets counted against how much skill bonus Ash applies to non-merged equipment. If I'm not mistaken, the only form that can't wear any equipment is wisp form, so if Ash's skill bonus potency is diluted across the number of equipment slots, then merging some of that equipment would not imply a loss in power, merely a shift in where that power is allocated, which could potentially be an advantage for transmuters, and may be an incentive for other characters to branch into transmutations.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1243

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Wednesday, 3rd March 2021, 12:58

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Saw the reddit post where if you get a mutation like hooves or horns that makes some equipment unusable, any cursed gear in that slot will fall away, destroying itself and the curse.

IMO this is horrible, and Ash should block mutations that would cause cursed gear to be unequipped.

Edit: actually, it might be interesting if Ash suppressed the mutation for as long as that slot remained bound; it would give additional decisions about whether to remain cursed as when you took the gear off you would get the mutation.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1243

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Thursday, 4th March 2021, 20:12

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

First attempt with new Ash
https://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/Gonzollydolly/morgue-Gonzollydolly-20210304-193751.txt

Got lucky in finding the altar on D:2 and felt powerful very quickly (the amount of skill boost was nerfed part way through the run, so I don't know how the early game would have played with the post-nerf levels.)
New Ash seems particularly good with Gnolls because as you are training all skills you can probably make use of whatever curses are offered - I went from being a stabber with invisibility, to a strong melee fighter to having AZ and Tornado castable by the end of Depths.

When equipment is melded by transmutations, you just lose the bonuses from it, you don't get higher bonuses from non-merged equipment. This is a big disappointment as it stops Ash being much use for non-Octopode transmuters. You could still probably build a character around using Blade Hands and ensuring the boosts you want when in melee don't end up on your glove, weapon or shield slots, but if you want a god to buff unarmed combat, Oka or Chei are probably better.

Permanent scrying breaks autoexplore; it won't let you autoexplore (or rest to heal) if a monster is visible on the other side of a wall.
It can also be a bit unclear which monsters are actually in LOS and which are just round a corner but revealed by scrying - a number of times I was trying to affect a monster with a spell or throw boomerangs and wondering why no target was available.

Overall, it felt both interesting and powerful (maybe too powerful...?) Though I'd like to see how it plays on a non-Gnoll species

Zot Zealot

Posts: 931

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Sunday, 7th March 2021, 12:31

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

My first game with the new Ash:
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.27-a0-543-gd81048afd2 (webtiles) character file.

petercordia2 the Caller (Ogre Summoner)            Turns: 18100, Time: 01:03:44

Health: 98/98      AC:  6    Str: 14    XL:     10   Next: 7%
Magic:  5/18       EV: 13    Int: 19    God:    Ashenzari [*.....]
Gold:   322        SH:  9    Dex:  9    Spells: 4/20 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .   a - +1 falchion (flame)
rCold    . . .     Faith    .   j - +0 kite shield
rNeg     . . .     Spirit   .   d - +0 robe
rPois    +         Reflect  .   (helmet restricted)
rElec    .         Harm     .   U - +2 cloak of Cremastomancy {rCorr, Bglg, Range} (curse)
rCorr    +         Rampage  .   (gloves unavailable)
Will     +....                  (boots unavailable)
Stlth    +.........             (no amulet)
HPRegen  0.26/turn              H - ring of poison resistance
MPRegen  0.16/turn              N - ring of the Cursed Doubts {EV+4, Evo, Alch} (curse)

@: no status effects
A: large, unfitting armour, tough skin 1
a: Renounce Religion, Shatter the Chains


You are on level 9 of the Dungeon.
You worship Ashenzari.
Ashenzari is aware of your devotion.
You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 12 of its levels.

You have collected 638 gold pieces.
You have spent 316 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +1 falchion of flaming (weapon)
 b - a +2 hunting sling of freezing
 t - a +0 vorpal spear
Missiles
 c - 296 stones
 e - 18 boomerangs (quivered)
 l - 68 arrows
 n - 93 poisoned darts
 p - 139 bolts
 A - 5 silver boomerangs
 D - 20 sling bullets
 P - 4 silver javelins
 S - a curare-tipped dart
Armour
 d - a +0 robe (worn)
 j - a +0 kite shield (worn)
 U - the cursed +2 cloak of Cremastomancy (worn) {rCorr, Bglg, Range}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Dungeon)   
   
   If you remove this armour, your AC would decrease by 3 (6 -> 3).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
Jewellery
 E - a ring of ice
 H - a ring of poison resistance (left hand)
 K - a ring of flight
 L - an amulet of guardian spirit
 N - the cursed ring of the Cursed Doubts (right hand) {EV+4, Evo, Alch}
   (You found it on level 9 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of evasion]
   
   It affects your evasion (+4).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 O - a ring of see invisible
Wands
 q - a wand of polymorph (10)
 I - a wand of mindburst (19)
 M - a wand of iceblast (15)
Scrolls
 i - 3 scrolls of enchant armour
 m - 2 scrolls of enchant weapon
 o - 2 scrolls of magic mapping
 s - 5 scrolls of teleportation
 u - a scroll of teleportation
 v - a scroll of magic mapping
 w - 2 scrolls of noise
 x - 3 scrolls of immolation
 y - 2 scrolls of fog
 z - 3 scrolls of identify
 G - a scroll of fear
 T - a scroll of acquirement
Potions
 f - a potion of magic
 g - 2 potions of brilliance
 h - 2 potions of curing
 k - a potion of cancellation
 r - 4 potions of lignification
 B - 2 potions of resistance
 C - 2 potions of might
 F - 2 potions of attraction
 J - a potion of mutation
 Q - a potion of heal wounds
 R - a potion of haste


   Skills:
 + Level 5.8 Fighting
 - Level 2.4(3.7) Slings
 - Level 2.3(4.1) Throwing
 - Level 1.9 Dodging
 - Level 1.4 Stealth
 * Level 6.6 Shields
 + Level 5.5 Spellcasting
 * Level 6.8 Summonings
 - Level 2.0(3.0) Translocations
 * Level 1.0 Ice Magic
 + Level 4.2 Air Magic
 - Level 1.7(2.7) Evocations


You have 4 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power      Damage    Failure   Level
a - Summon Small Mammal   Summ           100%       N/A       1%          1
b - Blink                 Tloc           N/A        N/A       9%          2
c - Call Canine Familiar  Summ           31%        N/A       3%          3
e - Call Imp              Summ           31%        N/A       1%          2
i - Summon Ice Beast      Ice/Summ       20%        N/A       36%         4
l - Summon Lightning Spi  Summ/Air       26%        N/A       19%         4

Your spell library contains the following spells:

 Spells                   Type           Power      Damage    Failure   Level
 Apportation              Tloc           32%        N/A       5%          1
 Summon Guardian Golem    Hex/Summ       18%        N/A       14%         3
 Gell's Gravitas          Tloc           8%         N/A       16%         3
 Lesser Beckoning         Tloc           8%         N/A       16%         3
 Foxfire                  Conj/Fire      20%        2x1d5     19%         1
 Conjure Flame            Conj/Fire      5%         6-21      50%         3
 Dispersal                Tloc           8%         N/A       100%        6


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (10/15)            Temple (1/1) D:4            Lair (1/6) D:9
   Orc: D:9-12     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Hepliaklqana
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Uskayaw
Vehumet
Wu Jian
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Shops:
D:3 =   D:4 ?[=[


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are too large for most types of armour.
You have tough skin. (AC +1)


Message History

Your lightning spire is destroyed!
Your white imp gestures at the yak.
The puff of frost hits the yak.
The yak dies!
Your hound bites the yak.
Unknown command.
Casting: Call Canine Familiar (mildly dangerous; 3% risk of failure)
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
You don't know that spell.
Casting: Call Canine Familiar (mildly dangerous; 3% risk of failure)
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
You miscast Summon Lightning Spire.
You are very lightly contaminated with residual magic.
Nothing appears to happen. Your hound barely misses the yak.
Your white imp gestures at the yak.
The puff of frost hits the yak.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Your hound bites the yak but does no damage.
The yak gores your hound. The yak gores your white imp!
Your hound bites the yak but does no damage.
Your white imp gestures at the yak.
The puff of frost hits the yak.
Things that are here:
a +0 leather armour; a +0 club
Unknown command.
The yak gores your hound!
Your hound dies!
Your hound's corpse disappears in a puff of smoke!
You see here a +0 morningstar.
Unknown command.
The yak gores something!
Your white imp gestures at the yak.
The puff of frost hits the yak!
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
Your white imp hits the yak. Your white imp freezes the yak.
You climb upwards.
There is a stone staircase leading down, spattered with blood here.
Unknown command.
Your magical contamination has completely faded away.

.......P..['..#P.P...........).[.
...........####.P.......)..).....
...............P.P........#......
................P........).......
...............P.......##....##..
.........................>.......
...............P...........).....
.................................
................@................
.................###.............
.................###.............
.........#......#..........##....
..........#.....#...###...###)...
..........#.........##...## ##...
..........#..............### #...
...................###.....# #...
..................##⌠##....# #...


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  A nameless horror (D:10)
  A yak (D:9)
  4 phantoms
  A bullfrog (D:8)
  A gnoll sergeant (D:9)
  A scorpion (D:9)
  A hound (D:6)
  A bullfrog skeleton (D:6)
  A hound zombie (D:8)
  A howler monkey zombie (D:8)
  3 gnolls
  3 adders
  An ooze (D:4)
  2 adder skeletons
  An adder zombie (D:7)
  3 dart slugs
  A leopard gecko (D:6)
  12 orcs
  7 bats
  2 giant cockroaches
  6 goblins
  4 hobgoblins
  6 jackals
  4 quokkas
  2 frilled lizards
  2 jackal skeletons
  A jackal zombie (D:6)
  2 kobolds (D:1)
  A leopard gecko skeleton (D:8)
  3 rats
79 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A two-headed ogre (D:9)
  The ghost of UristMcRaven the Digger, a novice VSEE (D:9)
  A black mamba (Lair:1)
  A komodo dragon (D:8)
  9 yaks
  A water moccasin (D:6)
  2 orc warriors
  2 sky beasts
  A black bear (D:8)
  An ice beast (D:9)
  2 ogres
  A centaur (D:9)
  5 bullfrogs
  A kobold brigand (D:10)
  3 scorpions
  A howler monkey (D:6)
  A centaur zombie (D:6)
  A quasit (D:6)
  A hound (D:6)
  2 orc priests
  An iguana (D:9)
  7 orc wizards
  6 worker ants
  Robin (D:2)
  8 gnolls
  3 adders
  A shadow imp (D:7)
  3 white imps
  An adder skeleton (D:9)
  3 worms
  21 orcs
  A giant cockroach (D:1)
  11 goblins
  5 hobgoblins
  6 jackals
  8 kobolds
  2 quokkas
  A ball python (D:5)
  A bat (D:1)
  2 rats
130 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  14 fungi (D:9)
  10 plants (D:9)
24 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 233 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | petercordia2 the Ogre Summoner began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 16/16 MP: 3/3
   420 | D:1      | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
   420 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 18/27 MP: 2/5
   423 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Call Imp
  1496 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
  1496 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 17/33 MP: 1/7
  2330 | D:2      | Noticed Robin
  2352 | D:2      | Killed Robin
  2353 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 19/41 MP: 2/8
  4152 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 43/48 MP: 3/9
  4156 | D:3      | Learned a level 3 spell: Call Canine Familiar
  4531 | D:3      | Found a shimmering blue altar of Sif Muna.
  4607 | D:4      | Found Noinop's Magic Scroll Boutique.
  4610 | D:4      | Bought a scroll of teleportation for 39 gold pieces
  4610 | D:4      | Bought a scroll of magic mapping for 45 gold pieces
  4611 | D:4      | Found Okadidim's Jewellery Shoppe.
  4651 | D:4      | Noticed a phantom
  4887 | D:4      | Identified the Handbook of the Quantum Volcanoes
  4892 | D:4      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
  4998 | D:4      | Found Horacsav's Armour Boutique.
  5011 | D:4      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  5051 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  5060 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  5326 | D:4      | Found Posimuwo's Antique Armour Shoppe.
  5642 | D:4      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  5719 | D:4      | Noticed an ogre
  5744 | D:4      | Killed an ogre
  5913 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  6273 | D:4      | Bought a scroll of fog for 26 gold pieces
  6273 | D:4      | Bought a scroll of identify for 26 gold pieces
  6285 | D:5      | Noticed a sky beast
  6336 | D:5      | Noticed an ogre
  6351 | D:5      | Killed an ogre
  6355 | D:5      | Killed a sky beast
  6356 | D:5      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 42/58 MP: 2/10
  7096 | D:5      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  7635 | D:6      | Noticed a water moccasin
  7666 | D:6      | Killed a water moccasin
  8213 | D:6      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 30/67 MP: 5/12
  8870 | D:6      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  9686 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Summonings
 10401 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Translocations
 11122 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
 11525 | D:8      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
 11526 | D:8      | Found an ornate altar of the Wu Jian Council.
 11580 | D:8      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 78/78 MP: 3/14
 12582 | D:8      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
 12691 | D:8      | Found a broken altar of Ashenzari.
 12716 | D:8      | Became a worshipper of Ashenzari the Shackled
 13548 | D:3      | Found a shimmering blue altar of Sif Muna.
 14320 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 14320 | D:9      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 14320 | D:9      | Noticed a yak
 14323 | D:9      | Noticed a yak
 14537 | D:9      | Noticed a komodo dragon
 14883 | D:8      | Killed a komodo dragon
 14884 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 14884 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
 15188 | D:9      | Noticed a yak
 15188 | D:9      | Noticed a yak
 15614 | D:8      | Killed a yak
 15615 | D:8      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 32/88 MP: 2/16
 15889 | D:9      | Learned a level 4 spell: Summon Lightning Spire
 15988 | D:9      | Found a runed translucent door.
 15988 | D:9      | Noticed UristMcRaven's ghost (novice VSEE)
 16034 | D:9      | Identified the +1 leather armour of Meager Awe {Harm Dex+2}
 16066 | D:9      | Killed a two-headed ogre
 16067 | D:9      | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 16242 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 16242 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 16244 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 16244 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 16244 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 16244 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 16250 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 16284 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 16631 | D:9      | Noticed a faun
 16714 | D:9      | Noticed a water nymph
 17007 | D:9      | Killed UristMcRaven's ghost
 17013 | D:9      | Learned a level 4 spell: Summon Ice Beast
 17212 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 17230 | D:9      | Upgraded the game from 0.27-a0-531-gb72ec1a1b6 to
                  | 0.27-a0-535-g7eaf864cf9
 17230 | D:9      | Upgraded the game from 0.27-a0-535-g7eaf864cf9 to
                  | 0.27-a0-543-gd81048afd2
 17456 | D:10     | Noticed a nameless horror
 17460 | D:10     | Killed a nameless horror
 17461 | D:10     | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 17504 | D:10     | Reached skill level 1 in Ice Magic
 17764 | D:4      | Bought a runed cloak for 180 gold pieces
 17772 | D:3      | Reached * piety under Ashenzari
 17895 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 17899 | Lair:1   | Noticed a black mamba
 17908 | Lair:1   | Killed a black mamba
 17915 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 1 in Slings
 17933 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 65/98 MP: 2/18

Illustrated notes

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 |
---------------+-------------------------------+-----
Fighting       |  1           2  3     5       |  5.8
Shields        |     1  2  3     4  5  6       |  6.6
Spellcasting   |              3     4  5       |  5.5
Summonings     |              4     5  6       |  6.8
Translocations |                    1  2       |  2.0
Air Magic      |                          4    |  4.2
Evocations     |                          1    |  1.7
Ice Magic      |                          1    |  1.0
Throwing       |                          2    |  2.3
Slings         |                          1  2 |  2.4
Dodging        |                               |  1.9
Stealth        |                               |  1.4

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Dagger            |   121 |   248 |   188 |       ||   557
       Unarmed           |    11 |       |       |       ||    11
       Falchion          |       |       |   141 |       ||   141
       Spear             |       |       |     4 |       ||     4
 Fire: Hunting sling     |       |       |     6 |       ||     6
Throw: Boomerang         |       |     3 |     8 |     1 ||    12
 Cast: Summon Small Mamm |    28 |     4 |    18 |       ||    50
       Call Imp          |    12 |    50 |    89 |     2 ||   153
       Call Canine Famil |       |     7 |    45 |     2 ||    54
       Blink             |       |       |     6 |       ||     6
       Summon Lightning  |       |       |    11 |     1 ||    12
       Summon Ice Beast  |       |       |     2 |       ||     2
Invok: Curse Item        |       |       |     2 |       ||     2
  Use: Scroll            |       |     4 |       |       ||     4
 Stab: Sleeping          |     1 |     6 |       |       ||     7
       Distracted        |     1 |     1 |     6 |       ||     8
Armor: Robe              |    50 |    78 |    72 |       ||   200
Dodge: Dodged            |    64 |    74 |   136 |       ||   274
Block: Kite shield       |    29 |   102 |   194 |       ||   325
Rpst.: Falchion          |       |       |    17 |       ||    17

Table legend: (Time is in decaauts)
 A = Elapsed time spent in this place.
 B = Non-inter-level travel time spent in this place.
 C = Inter-level travel time spent in this place.
 D = Time resting spent in this place.
 E = Time spent auto-exploring this place.
 F = Levels seen in this place.
 G = Mean time per level.
                   A        B        C        D        E      F       G
               +--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+-----+--------+
         Total |  18291 |  16607 |   1684 |   2472 |  11308 |  12 | 1524.2 |
       Dungeon |  18047 |  16382 |   1665 |   2472 |  11103 |  10 | 1804.7 |
        Temple |    223 |    204 |     19 |      0 |    203 |   1 |  223.0 |
          Lair |     20 |     20 |      0 |      0 |      2 |   1 |   20.0 |
               +--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+-----+--------+

Top non-repeatable levels by time:
     D:8: 3133 daAuts
     D:6: 2735 daAuts
     D:2: 2218 daAuts
     D:9: 2045 daAuts
     D:3: 1958 daAuts
     D:7: 1528 daAuts
     D:5: 1384 daAuts
     D:4: 1380 daAuts
     D:1: 1373 daAuts
    D:10: 290 daAuts
  Temple: 223 daAuts
  Lair:1: 20 daAuts


Overall my impression is that the new Ash is unpleasant to play. It might not have helped matters that I didn't find Ash until D:8.

First the good things:
  • having curses slowly become available, and having cursed items become -in essence- fragile artefacts, does lead to interesting decisions.
  • Having piety purely determined by your equipment is novel, and I think it works.
  • having a god-ability to destroy cursed items is neat.

However as I said this is overshadowed for me by the unpleasant things:
  • having played as a pure summoner, I haven't yet received any summoning curses, which feels frustrating.
  • I feel pressured to accept curses I'm not really happy with, and even to put these curses on pretty-decent equipment, because I don't know how long it will be until I get the next opportunity to curse something, which again feels frustrating.
  • having different amounts of bonuses for different skills feels limiting, which I'm not used to with Ash.
  • I miss the joy of equipping pre-cursed items. It was fun when there could be benefit to equipping a cursed club or ring of -2 Dex, and it'd feel good if I were lucky enough to find a cursed cloak or a cursed +3 weapon. None of that can happen anymore.

Some ideas for alleviating the frustration:
  • give Ash a one-time ability to curse all equipped items
  • make curses accrue faster, but couple the curse-destroying ability to the same timer that's used for cursing. (ie you'd have one ability which has the options "curse item" and "destroy cursed item")
  • use the old skill bonus system (without specific skills being associated with specific items)
  • allow curse-charges to be saved up (so you could curse 5 items in a row if you don't curse anything for a long time)

Dungeon Master

Posts: 245

Joined: Thursday, 27th November 2014, 19:12

Post Friday, 19th March 2021, 21:34

Re: New Ashenzari redesign


For this message the author ebering has received thanks: 3
andrew, Lici_the_Crawler, vt

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 17

Joined: Sunday, 15th September 2019, 06:21

Post Tuesday, 25th May 2021, 05:02

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

IMO, new Ash is not very fun. The benefits are all passive and frustratingly random. It is also frustrating that you can't enchant something cursed, so you might be stuck waiting around for some enchants.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 34

Joined: Saturday, 9th December 2017, 19:14

Post Thursday, 22nd July 2021, 21:40

Re: New Ashenzari redesign

Khashishi wrote:IMO, new Ash is not very fun. The benefits are all passive and frustratingly random. It is also frustrating that you can't enchant something cursed, so you might be stuck waiting around for some enchants.


This is the "feature" that made Ash worthless to me.

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