Formicids should not be able to use PoG


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 9th September 2019, 23:10

Formicids should not be able to use PoG

OK, let's open the other can of worms (you we're all waiting for this, right?) :)

Formicid:
  Code:
Perhaps unfortunately, their strong ties to earth have left them completely impervious to being teleported

Passage of Golubria:
  Code:
Opens two gateways (one always near the caster), which allow instantaneous transport to random other open gateways to any creature entering them.

Instantaneous transport is just another way of saying teleport. Therefore, formicids should not be able to cast PoG. Or, at least, not be instantaneously transported by the gateways.

Feel free to shoot me down :)
...DDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}
{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAM
BaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe

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Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 9th September 2019, 23:43

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

I'd argue opening a whole portal and stepping through it still only entails physical movement on the part of the Formicid. It's space that's warping to accommodate.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 10th September 2019, 00:05

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

PseudoLoneWolf wrote:I'd argue opening a whole portal and stepping through it still only entails physical movement on the part of the Formicid. It's space that's warping to accommodate.

I don't think the spell description supports that argument.

Funnily enough the wiki page says
Entering one portal immediately teleports you to another portal,

Of course the wiki is not an official source, but it just shows that whoever wrote that wiki page also thought that what happens is teleportation.
...DDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}
{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAM
BaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 10th September 2019, 02:04

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

PoG's intended flavour is that it makes space itself connected at the two gateways, so you just walk through one and it leads to the other, with no teleportation involved; the magic is messing with space, not you. Like the thing sci-fi writers came up with when people pointed out that "disassemble you in the teleporter and reassemble you at the destination" not only spawns a bunch of unbearable Ship of Theseus arguments, it also requires faster-than-light communication.

And then items, the sound waves traveling through the air, and everything else that isn't a player or monster, behaves as if space were unchanged. In case you couldn't tell, I'm not really a fan of this flavour and definitely support just admitting it's teleportation and blocking it for formicids.

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Post Tuesday, 10th September 2019, 03:19

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

Also stasis prevents Xom from swapping you with a monster, but doesn't affect Lugonu's Bend Space ability. Or provide immunity to banishment, which would make a hell of a lot more sense than immunity to paralysis

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 10th September 2019, 06:17

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

duvessa wrote:Also stasis prevents Xom from swapping you with a monster, but doesn't affect Lugonu's Bend Space ability.

This should clearly be fixed. Xom, the "wild and unpredictable god of chaos", is the one god you would expect to be able to break all kinds of rules.
...DDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}
{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAM
BaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe

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Post Tuesday, 10th September 2019, 17:28

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

This suggestion also breaks internal consistency, unless we're arguing formicids should be immune to banish, bend space, and timed portals/portal vaults.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 10th September 2019, 17:54

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

TheMeInTeam wrote:This suggestion also breaks internal consistency, unless we're arguing formicids should be immune to banish, bend space, and timed portals/portal vaults.

No, it tries to fix one part of what is inconsistent. Just like the swiftness proposal :)

Immunity to banishment would be good too, imo. Gods are allowed to break rules so bend space can be justified. Denying portals would break the game...
...DDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}
{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAM
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Post Tuesday, 10th September 2019, 18:26

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

PoG portals and other portals operate on the same principles/player logic.

Bend space is a Lugonu power, but so is banishment.

You do not attain consistency by breaking internal consistency. Doing that is the opposite of the stated goal. There is no apparent reason PoG portal usage breaks consistency with formicids, but there are reasons that them being unable to do so breaks it.
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Post Tuesday, 10th September 2019, 23:48

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

TheMeInTeam wrote:There is no apparent reason PoG portal usage breaks consistency with formicids

Yes there is. PoG is like a delayed controlled blink so a species that can't blink or teleport should not be able to cast it.

but there are reasons that them being unable to do so breaks it.

Yes, you have to compare these points of view:
1) PoG is like a controlled blink or
2) PoG is like other portals.

I maintain that if there are gameplay reasons why formicids can't cast blink or teleport, by the same reasons they should not be able to cast PoG.
And yes, I also think that if the amulet of stasis still existed, it should block PoG as well.
...DDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}
{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAM
BaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe

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Post Wednesday, 11th September 2019, 11:55

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

currently PoG looks like the permanent portals, and functions similarly (in that you can enter both with >).
I also can't think of a lore reason why PoG and permanent portals should be treated differently by Stasis.
If a decision is made to make them different, we'd also need new art tiles for PoG portals.

For what it's worth, I like Fo PoG. It's interesting to train Translocations on a species that can't Blink.

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Post Wednesday, 11th September 2019, 14:59

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

Yes there is. PoG is like a delayed controlled blink so a species that can't blink or teleport should not be able to cast it.


Roughly as coherent as claiming that javelins are like magic (they do massive damage at range without switching weapons) therefore Trog should ban throwing javelins.

If that logic doesn't sound good to you, your own stated logic should also not sound good to you.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 11th September 2019, 23:11

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

TheMeInTeam wrote:Roughly as coherent as claiming that javelins are like magic

Come on, you can do better than that.
...DDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}
{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAM
BaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe

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Post Thursday, 12th September 2019, 09:06

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

I'm with TheMeInTeam on this one.
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Post Thursday, 12th September 2019, 09:12

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

Very well: roughly as coherent as locking Fo out of wizlabs, Abyss, Hells, or any place not physically part of the dungeon. The problem with conflating stasis as preventing any form of change in movement implies this. As stated above, warping by Lugonu affects space itself rather than the follower. So does banishment, and so do portals which bind together places that would otherwise be spaced apart from one another.
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Post Thursday, 12th September 2019, 10:35

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

If I would make a Trog/magic/javelins analogy, it would be something like this:

If Trog would be a god who hated ranged damage and the lore would be that Trog bans magic because magic can be used to inflict damage at range

then it would be logical to claim that also javelins should be banned.

Regarding portals, yes, that's what I wrote earlier, there are two views to PoG: 1) it functions almost like a delayed controlled blink, 2) it uses portals. Blinking and teleporting are currently prohibited from Formicids, portals are not. In my opinion, the current situation (you can't blink or teleport but can controlled-blink) is worse than the other case would be (PoG gateways won't teleport you, but other portals work normally).

And again, yes, I do think the gameplay would be more interesting for formicids, if they could not use PoG to get out of trouble. This would push them more into using their unique shafting ability, for example.
...DDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}
{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAM
BaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe
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Post Thursday, 12th September 2019, 12:15

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

Sprucery wrote:And again, yes, I do think the gameplay would be more interesting for formicids, if they could not use PoG to get out of trouble. This would push them more into using their unique shafting ability, for example.


Wouldn't that also make on-demand-killhole abuse much more likely as well? Yes, the self-shaft can be very powerful, but it also introduces a substantial risk of [frying pan->fire] consequences which digging lacks.
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Post Thursday, 12th September 2019, 13:31

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

Most definitely yes, but I assume that abusing killholes is a desired feature of Formicids. Why else would they have been given the ability to dig...
...DDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}
{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAM
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Post Thursday, 12th September 2019, 14:03

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

It's still incredibly dull to use killholes without any pressing need, though. You don't exactly face groups of smiters/pproj naga/other nasties which would force that for a significant part of the game anyway. And there are spells and consumables that can achieve the same or more favorable results too. I can certainly enjoy a rest bunker or some vault bypass to set up an entry. Exploration is also easier with Fo when the generated floors have multiple awkwardly long hallways or transparent walls, which annoy me to no end on any other species.
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Post Thursday, 12th September 2019, 21:48

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

Sprucery wrote:
TheMeInTeam wrote:Roughly as coherent as claiming that javelins are like magic

Come on, you can do better than that.


I will too, if it becomes necessary.

But as presented so far they're the same degree of rationale. If we're allowed to claim "portal = delayed controlled blink", it's not even kind of a reach to claim "javelin is like a long range iron shot".

I reject both of those propositions obviously. But if one's standards accept one it's silly to reject the other.
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Post Friday, 13th September 2019, 00:15

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

TheMeInTeam wrote:But as presented so far they're the same degree of rationale

Well, I can't say anything else but that I disagree. I gave my version of how Trog banning javelins could be compared to PoG being banned from formicids.

I'd like to think there's a reason why formicids can't blink or teleport. And that same reason should ban PoG in my opinion. Even when the PoG gateways look like portals. Like I said, imo the current situation (you can't blink or teleport but can controlled-blink) is worse than the other case would be (PoG gateways won't teleport you, but other portals work normally).

I'd also like to add that I'm really glad that both formicid threads at least created discussion, even though nothing will change in the game. Thanks to all who have participated anyway.
...DDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}
{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAM
BaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe

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Post Friday, 13th September 2019, 16:44

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

Well, I can't say anything else but that I disagree. I gave my version of how Trog banning javelins could be compared to PoG being banned from formicids.


You aren't applying your own standards consistently. In the absence of consistent standards, your proposals amount to "these changes should happen because I want them to". No harm in wanting something, but usually good changes for a game need more basis than that.
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Post Friday, 13th September 2019, 22:36

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

I only responded to the swiftness thread, as there's no point in writing the same thing here :)
...DDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}
{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAM
BaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe

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Post Sunday, 15th September 2019, 23:44

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

duvessa wrote:PoG's intended flavour is that it makes space itself connected at the two gateways, so you just walk through one and it leads to the other, with no teleportation involved; the magic is messing with space, not you. Like the thing sci-fi writers came up with when people pointed out that "disassemble you in the teleporter and reassemble you at the destination" not only spawns a bunch of unbearable Ship of Theseus arguments, it also requires faster-than-light communication.

Unfortunately for those writers, FTL+relativity means causality violation, no matter how they describe it.

Similarly in Crawl (ha, topic!) it seems to me that from a Doylist point of view PoG's a teleport no matter what the fluff text says.

Sprucery: what about Hep Transference? Whether gods can trump species restrictions varies.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 16th September 2019, 06:49

Re: Formicids should not be able to use PoG

damerell wrote:Sprucery: what about Hep Transference? Whether gods can trump species restrictions varies.

True. If Trog can't swap your position, should Hep be able to?

Generally I would like if gods where allowed to break all species restrictions (let mummies berserk etc.).
...DDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}
{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAM
BaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe

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