which armour is better?


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Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 493

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Tuesday, 11th June 2019, 10:00

which armour is better?

This is based on a game I'm playing for the brawl tournament, and the full dump can be found here: https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/pete ... iaCSDC.txt

I have 3 pretty good armours:
  Code:
 a a +1 crystal plate armour
 b the cursed +1 crystal plate armour "Makoir" {*Drain +Inv Regen+ MP+9 Stlth+}
 c +10 chain mail "Virchuj" {rPois rN++ Int+4 Dex-2}


I have 35 strength (as a Demigod), and necromutation is in my spell library.
I'm currently wearing the chain mail for the sake of rPois & rN++

I'm curious whether there are any general principles to decide which armour is best for which situation, and whether the +Inv Regen+ MP+9 Stlth+ could ever make the artifact crystal plate better than a more enchanted plain crystal plate (in Hell for example).
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Shoals Surfer

Posts: 288

Joined: Sunday, 27th January 2019, 13:50

Post Tuesday, 11th June 2019, 10:53

Re: which armour is better?

If there are general principles, they probably revolve around giving your char the most rounded defensive stats while also not killing versatility. A hybrid needs a good balance for spells, so being hampered by ER-induced spell failures or basic attack cancels is not a good trade. For this particular build, I think the chain mail will be your best "always on" armour for quite some time. Later on, you'll likely switch to GDS or CP anyway.

Dg already has innate +MP, and the cloak provides evokable +Inv and +Blink by itself. So in the mid- or long-term, the randart crystal doesn't seem more useful than a fully enchanted plain crystal to me. Hope this helps with your choice.
There is always something new to learn.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 943

Joined: Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 15:03

Post Tuesday, 11th June 2019, 14:22

Re: which armour is better?

Sorcerous: why are you talking about a hybrid? The character on the link cannot cast any spell even in the chain mail.

petercordia wrote: and necromutation is in my spell library.

Why necromuation is the spell you want to learn with a character in crystal plate armour which did no spell training so far? It seems really irrelevant.

petercordia wrote:
I'm currently wearing the chain mail for the sake of rPois & rN++

rPois and rN++ do not worth to wear a worse armour, neither is very important. Temporarily the chain mail could be better (you need more armour skill and enchant armour scrolls to make the crystal plate better, check your AC/EV). I personally would wear and enchant up the normal crystal plate armour.

I'm curious whether there are any general principles to decide which armour is best for which situation, and whether the +Inv Regen+ MP+9 Stlth+ could ever make the artifact crystal plate better than a more enchanted plain crystal plate (in Hell for example).


When you will have a lot of enchant armour scrolls the normal one will be very good, and the artefact one's properties are not so useful. You already have +Inv on your cloak, Regen+ is very weak, Stlth+ is useless. +9 HP is the best property, but when the other armour will be enchanted it will be better, in every branch. If you want regeneration in Hells/Abyss, I would learn the spell. It is better than necromuation. It is also better than Regen+ property in artifacts in my experience.

I would also switch off the shield skill and turn on armour.

  Code:
- Level 17.4 Invocations


Uhm, what? I guess in bcrawl you can train any skill, but - invocations on a demigod? Is it some kind of conduct for the tournament?

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Shoals Surfer

Posts: 288

Joined: Sunday, 27th January 2019, 13:50

Post Tuesday, 11th June 2019, 16:59

Re: which armour is better?

sanka wrote:Sorcerous: why are you talking about a hybrid? The character on the link cannot cast any spell even in the chain mail.


Well, @petercordia did mention the Hells and Necromutation, so I assumed extended (and the extra XP therein) is on the table.

sanka wrote:
  Code:
- Level 17.4 Invocations


Uhm, what? I guess in bcrawl you can train any skill, but - invocations on a demigod? Is it some kind of conduct for the tournament?


This char appears to have a set of multiple divine abilities like Major Destruction, I'm assuming Invocations are used to power them. I think that's specific to the fork.
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sanka

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Wednesday, 12th June 2019, 17:40

Re: which armour is better?

I'd argue that the regen property on the CPA is not very weak, and is in fact significant. However, being stuck at only +1 is still more significant, and if you could get the plain CPA enchanted, it's still better. I'm not sure exactly at what enchantment level I'd start to favor the plain CPA, but I'd say maybe around +6 or so it gets to be "equal". Above that, I'd use the plain one.

The chain is still the best for now just because that +10 is huge. Check what your AC/EV ends up as to confirm, but I suspect the plain CPA will pass the chain at roughly the same point as it beats the randart CPA, with about 5 or so enchant armor scrolls.

I don't think casting high level spells is really in the cards for this character unless you're really committed to farming and changing your strategy around drastically. You're at 12 int, with 33 strength (base values). If you intended to cast, you should have funnelled about 5-10 of those strength points into int. You can most certainly still cast lower level support magic, but necromutation isn't worth it. If you're that afraid of torment (the only reason to get necromutation), then statue form is going to be easier for this character to cast and good enough. Even that is a bit of a stretch with 12 int, although you're only level 22 so you could put a few more points into int I suppose. And with 15 rune experience, you could certainly train the skills enough, but dunno. About the only spell I'd actually want on this character is regeneration.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 493

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Thursday, 13th June 2019, 21:12

Re: which armour is better?

Yes, so in Bcrawl demigods get some god abilities and +3 invocations. The abilities are Temporal Distortion, Growth (and walk though plants), Major Destruction, Heroism, Divine Shield, and Smiting, one for each pip of piety. I'm using Heroism a lot, Smiting & Divine Shield a fair bit, and I used to use Growth in the early game (and also against TRJ). I have the impression that Major Destruction is outclassed by Smiting.
Also I'd like to go into Hell because Bcrawl changed Hell, and the tournament awards point for Hell runes. (Once you enter a Hell branch you can't get out until you've got the rune.)

So far I've stuck with the +10 Chain Mail. Switching to the heavier armours costs more EV than it gains me AC atm, but that will change soon. I do feel like I need rPois in Zot, and the chain mail is my most convenient source of rPois.
Bcrawl also features Shadow Dragon Scales with 11 base armour rating and Iron Dragon Scales with 16 base armour rating and 27 ER. I discovered these fairly recently. I'm quite tempted to go with the Shadow scales because I got the Boots of the Assassin, and I'm somewhat used to having high stealth. With my high stength I'm well suited for the Iron Dragon Scales (I decided to put the level-up points into more Strength)

If I go extended I'll be out of my comfort zone, because this character is quite different from what I am used to. I rarely play pure melee, and I've always had some form of torment resistance in extended, and/or TSO. Getting statue form would wreck my AC on this character, and I don't think it's worth it. I think torment is probably survivable if I have rN+++, spirit shield & good offence (which I do, with penetrating javelins & Smiting).
So far I have heavily relied on my vampiric demon trident to be able to take on large groups of enemies without dying. I'll probably have to rebrand my trident before going into hell (no other good tridents have spawned so far). I'm also going to be able to try out needle stabbing (I have high throwing skill, an enchanted blowgun & enough scrolls to bring it up to +9, and a stack of paralysis & confusion needles. Paralysis & confusion needles still exist in Bcrawl. I'll probably dump some evocables & potions to make space.)
I consider switching to a +3 antimagic bardiche, but that's probably now worth it because I've already got 20 shield skill.

My most recent character dump is here: https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/pete ... iaCSDC.txt
Any advise for extended is welcome :)

Blades Runner

Posts: 530

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Friday, 14th June 2019, 02:12

Re: which armour is better?

petercordia wrote:Yes, so in Bcrawl demigods get some god abilities and +3 invocations. The abilities are Temporal Distortion, Growth (and walk though plants), Major Destruction, Heroism, Divine Shield, and Smiting, one for each pip of piety. I'm using Heroism a lot, Smiting & Divine Shield a fair bit, and I used to use Growth in the early game (and also against TRJ). I have the impression that Major Destruction is outclassed by Smiting.
Also I'd like to go into Hell because Bcrawl changed Hell, and the tournament awards point for Hell runes. (Once you enter a Hell branch you can't get out until you've got the rune.)

So far I've stuck with the +10 Chain Mail. Switching to the heavier armours costs more EV than it gains me AC atm, but that will change soon. I do feel like I need rPois in Zot, and the chain mail is my most convenient source of rPois.
Bcrawl also features Shadow Dragon Scales with 11 base armour rating and Iron Dragon Scales with 16 base armour rating and 27 ER. I discovered these fairly recently. I'm quite tempted to go with the Shadow scales because I got the Boots of the Assassin, and I'm somewhat used to having high stealth. With my high stength I'm well suited for the Iron Dragon Scales (I decided to put the level-up points into more Strength)

If I go extended I'll be out of my comfort zone, because this character is quite different from what I am used to. I rarely play pure melee, and I've always had some form of torment resistance in extended, and/or TSO. Getting statue form would wreck my AC on this character, and I don't think it's worth it. I think torment is probably survivable if I have rN+++, spirit shield & good offence (which I do, with penetrating javelins & Smiting).
So far I have heavily relied on my vampiric demon trident to be able to take on large groups of enemies without dying. I'll probably have to rebrand my trident before going into hell (no other good tridents have spawned so far). I'm also going to be able to try out needle stabbing (I have high throwing skill, an enchanted blowgun & enough scrolls to bring it up to +9, and a stack of paralysis & confusion needles. Paralysis & confusion needles still exist in Bcrawl. I'll probably dump some evocables & potions to make space.)
I consider switching to a +3 antimagic bardiche, but that's probably now worth it because I've already got 20 shield skill.

My most recent character dump is here: https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/pete ... iaCSDC.txt
Any advise for extended is welcome :)


Regeneration is very good for a demigod in extended, because you can't take TSO (as you pointed out). Between those armours, I'd stick with the chain for awhile. The enchantable crystal plate will give you higher AC if you expend a lot of scrolls, but really you won't be hurting from AC the most. You'll be hurting more from torment, smite and hellfire (all which bypass AC). Necromancy is your best friend, for a few reasons: Necromutation, of course *if* you can cast it, but that's a big for you currently. It's doable quickly though if you increase int some and utilize a wizardry staff just for purposes of casting it. The xp rolls in pretty fast once you start killing stuff like fiends, etc. The regular regeneration spell is very valuable to extend your regeneration. Lowly vampiric drain spell can also ocassionally snag you a few extra HP here and there. Controlled blink is very useful, particularly for pandemonium where it isn't disabled, but don't invest for it if you have a lot of normal blink scrolls. Vampiric weapons are still a decent choice due to a number of monsters that you can still drain, like demonspawn. I don't use it, but I am aware that death's door is also a very good option and reason to train necromancy. Necromancy doesn't gimp you at all since you can't ever worship TSO anyhow, so it's turning lemons into lemonade (to a point).

Basically, the extended game for demigods becomes a hit n run type scenario. Kill stuff while you can, and when your health gets too low, retreat, like dig some holes and hide and rest up if necessary. The best armour you should be considering for a demigod long term if you're lacking in rN from amazing jewelry is pearl dragon armour. If you go into pan and look for the angels level, you can usually find it there. You can also get a ton of XP in there, and torment won't be a problem. Pearl dragon armour will help you greatly to be able to cast spells on the higher level side if you wind up trading a little STR for INT somewhere. Once you get necromutation online (if you ever do) , pearl dragon armour isn't as good anymore for obvious reasons. At that point you're probably better off in fully enchanted gold dragon armour.

I recommend an amulet of regeneration. I'd recommend that +1 crystal plate because of the regeneration, but it has two big flaws going against it: 1) you can't enchant it, and 2) it will seriously hamper any attempts to cast spells which are quite useful if you can get them castable in lighter armour. To sum it up, keep your resists all pretty solid, and prioritize rN+++ and regen, regen, regen. Hit 'n run, demigods are big tanks if they get the chance to recharge between encounters. I play extended all the way through nearly every game, choose your advice wisely ;)

Good luck

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 493

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Saturday, 15th June 2019, 21:33

Re: which armour is better?

I finished the game with 9 runes: https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/pete ... 212006.txt

I went with your advice that maximising AC was't worth it, and wore +7 shadow dragon scales for most of extended. I never noticed any trouble that more AC could have prevented.
I did all of Hell, but no Pan runes. Pan felt really dangerous. The kill-holes helped a lot when I used them, and stealth meant I could usually rest up even without a kill-hole. I used Spirit Shield (on an artefact) to take some of the bite out of torment, and heroism + needles to take out tormenters ASAP.

I never ended up using any spells, because there were too many other cool things to use my xp for ;) (Like a bcrawl-specific fixedart "serpentine sling")

thanks for your advice everyone!

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