Short Newperson Questions


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 8th May 2019, 12:53

Short Newperson Questions

Very new to StoneSoup and have these few questions to which I found no answer after 5+ minutes of searching, thanks much in advance:
- can I train http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Evocationsas a Trog worshipper or is that considered "magic"?
- I sometimes get the message "your skin crawls", but am not sure what this means
- IIUC, going long distances when using the "G" command requires much food because of the time spent; assuming I don't have an inherently fast character, how many "rations" (permafood) do I need to hoard just to survive the walk between branches (where I have basically cleared the monsters, so no corpses to cut up) in order to go to shops, enter branches that were too hard for me previously, etc.?
- I have trouble gauging how much Dexterity I need to invest in in order to keep hitting accurately; I'm not sure how often I should choose Dex over Str when playing a melee character. As a caster, I wonder how much Dex I need just for evasion (and I wear a buckler on my Conjurer, so for shields too). My melee Minotaur has very low Int, which as a Trog worshipper doesn't worry me too much, but I got drained once and it dropped to 1 -- do I need to choose Int on leveling up just to be safe from braindeadness?
- Are there items or features in the game I might find later that increase the maximum number of spell slots? I'm worried about memorizing spells and not finding amnesia scrolls (and I don't worship Sif Muna), how rare are those?
Thanks much so far!
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 8th May 2019, 13:13

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:- can I train http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Evocationsas a Trog worshipper or is that considered "magic"?
You can and you should.

- I sometimes get the message "your skin crawls", but am not sure what this means
You got regeneration from somewhere, probably Trog's Hand (I guess you didn't cast the Regeneration spell).

- IIUC, going long distances when using the "G" command requires much food because of the time spent; assuming I don't have an inherently fast character, how many "rations" (permafood) do I need to hoard just to survive the walk between branches (where I have basically cleared the monsters, so no corpses to cut up) in order to go to shops, enter branches that were too hard for me previously, etc.?
Don't worry about food. Keep rations in inventory and butcher some corpses from every fight and you will be fine.

- I have trouble gauging how much Dexterity I need to invest in in order to keep hitting accurately; I'm not sure how often I should choose Dex over Str when playing a melee character. As a caster, I wonder how much Dex I need just for evasion (and I wear a buckler on my Conjurer, so for shields too).
Basically raise Str for melee and Int for casters (Str too if you are wearing heavier than leather armour).

My melee Minotaur has very low Int, which as a Trog worshipper doesn't worry me too much, but I got drained once and it dropped to 1 -- do I need to choose Int on leveling up just to be safe from braindeadness?
Well, if you want to be safe you can do that but it's a bit of a waste... You can try just to be very careful around int-drainers.

- Are there items or features in the game I might find later that increase the maximum number of spell slots? I'm worried about memorizing spells and not finding amnesia scrolls (and I don't worship Sif Muna), how rare are those?
Spell slots are only gained by gaining experience levels and training the Spellcasting skill. Typically you will find several amnesia scrolls in a 3-rune game.
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DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu
{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWr
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Dis Charger

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Post Thursday, 9th May 2019, 06:10

Re: Short Newperson Questions

I'd just add to this very complete answer something about spells slots : you gain 1 slot per level (xp) and 2 per spellcasting (skill) level.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 10th May 2019, 07:33

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thank you very much, this is invaluable.

May I also ask:
- When people say "get X online", as in "get fireball online", does that mean: Get the appropriate skill (e.g. fire, conjuration, or also spellcasting??) to a level which gets ... what exactly? Full spellpower? Chance of miscast down to 1? or something else?
- Why do some spells have redded chances for me and big dangerous warnings although my miscast chance is in the single digits? Specifically, I just learned "Orb of Destruction" and my chance of miscast (probably due to help from Vehemut) is 8%. When I cast it, I get a little warning, and the chance to mistcast is only 8%?
- I really would like to find any spells dealing fire damage, any at all really, but haven't found any nor have been given any by Vehumet. I'm still sloooooowly crawling my way through Swamp, and not dead yet, but how much longer is reasonable to wait? Is there a good place to go to find spellbooks? The shop I found with books had nothing really I could use or didn'T already know.
- Just as a rule of thumb, is it generally more important to focus on the sub-skills (e.g. individual spell schools, individual weapon class skills) or the main type (e.g. fighting or spellcasting)?

thank you very much
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Slime Squisher

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Post Friday, 10th May 2019, 08:15

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Thank you very much, this is invaluable.

May I also ask:
- When people say "get X online", as in "get fireball online", does that mean: Get the appropriate skill (e.g. fire, conjuration, or also spellcasting??) to a level which gets ... what exactly? Full spellpower? Chance of miscast down to 1? or something else?
- Why do some spells have redded chances for me and big dangerous warnings although my miscast chance is in the single digits? Specifically, I just learned "Orb of Destruction" and my chance of miscast (probably due to help from Vehemut) is 8%. When I cast it, I get a little warning, and the chance to mistcast is only 8%?
- I really would like to find any spells dealing fire damage, any at all really, but haven't found any nor have been given any by Vehumet. I'm still sloooooowly crawling my way through Swamp, and not dead yet, but how much longer is reasonable to wait? Is there a good place to go to find spellbooks? The shop I found with books had nothing really I could use or didn'T already know.
- Just as a rule of thumb, is it generally more important to focus on the sub-skills (e.g. individual spell schools, individual weapon class skills) or the main type (e.g. fighting or spellcasting)?

thank you very much


1) Getting a spell online usually means getting the fail rate down to a comfortable % like <10%. This is of course, subjective.
2) Higher level spells have more severe miscast consequences. Miscasting Orb can blast you with irresistible damage, miscast Shatter and you get petrified etc.
3) Not just with spells, playing a game like DCSS encourages you to make do with what you have. Sometimes you get a book of Tempests off the floor in D:8. Other times you can't find the spells you want until U:4. Try to be creative with scrolls and wands, maybe consider completely changing your direction. A lamp can substitute for a great deal of spell damage just by taking up Evocations to 12 or so. At any rate, Vehumet is a fickle source of spells. I remember getting Glaciate on a EE with 0 Ice skill, but not Shatter.
4) Fighting is more of a defensive skill because of the HP bonus, having extra damage is more of a side bonus. Weapon skills are the main draw. Spellcasting helps all spells, but to a lesser degree than the actual spell skills like Conjurations or Fire. So yes, you generally want your spell schools trained early and highly.

You're welcome :)
There is always something new to learn.

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 10th May 2019, 09:21

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thank you!
Two last questions:
- I'm not sure how valuable the "armor" skill is -- IIUC, it will decrease penalties from heavier armour, but won't give "more AC" -- the skill description says so, but I never notice any increase-- so if my penalties don't seem terribly large, can I just leave it in the very low double-digits? This for a berserker who wants to wear heavy but with no need for spellcasting reduction.
- So I found a "vampiric" weapon, seems good, but I cannot engorge myself because I cannot force myself to eat chunks. Am I supposed to just keep eating rations until I am Full?

Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 10th May 2019, 10:52

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Armour skill increases your AC by (base AC) * skill / 22. Base AC is the AC you get from armour, gloves, boots, helmet without counting enchantments. Late in the game, with heavy armour, it is very good. Early in the game I usually ignore it.

You can eat a few rations to equip a vampiric weapon - if you're lucky you need only 1 ration, otherwise 2 rations. If you really want to save rations, you can use an amulet of gourmand to get to full, but that will deprive you of your amulet slot for some time. Don't switch too often ;)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 10th May 2019, 17:00

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Thank you!
Two last questions:
- I'm not sure how valuable the "armor" skill is -- IIUC, it will decrease penalties from heavier armour, but won't give "more AC" -- the skill description says so, but I never notice any increase-- so if my penalties don't seem terribly large, can I just leave it in the very low double-digits? This for a berserker who wants to wear heavy but with no need for spellcasting reduction.
- So I found a "vampiric" weapon, seems good, but I cannot engorge myself because I cannot force myself to eat chunks. Am I supposed to just keep eating rations until I am Full?

Also the food thing is intended to reduce the number of times you swap a vampiric weapon, if you want to be able to swap back and forth between weapons frequently you shouldn't choose a vampiric weapon, if you just want to equip it once, and leave it equipped, eating an extra ration or two to do so isn't a very high cost.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 11th May 2019, 08:36

Re: Short Newperson Questions

This is so very helpful, thank you!

I read the macro help text which comes with the game, and because I'm sadly not technically inclined, I can't figure out where to find info on which keys have which code names - I use a German laptop, where can I find those numbers?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 11th May 2019, 09:07

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:This is so very helpful, thank you!

I read the macro help text which comes with the game, and because I'm sadly not technically inclined, I can't figure out where to find info on which keys have which code names - I use a German laptop, where can I find those numbers?

the easiest way is to use control-D in-game, and just type the macro in.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 11th May 2019, 09:20

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Siegurt wrote:
onomastikon wrote:This is so very helpful, thank you!

I read the macro help text which comes with the game, and because I'm sadly not technically inclined, I can't figure out where to find info on which keys have which code names - I use a German laptop, where can I find those numbers?

the easiest way is to use control-D in-game, and just type the macro in.


Thank you, but I mean: I still don't know which code numbers to enter for the keys I want to use.
Here (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/crawl/crawl/master/crawl-ref/docs/macros_guide.txt) it says, e.g.:
# F1: cast spell 'a'
M:\{368}
A:za

I don't know how to find a list of the numbers which go in the "M" line

Totally unrelated question: When I do something that my god likes ("XXX appreciates your kill"), do I gain 1 piety? So when a skill says "Costs 2MP and 4 piety" I need to do 4x things to earn it back?

Tomb Titivator

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Post Saturday, 11th May 2019, 09:29

Re: Short Newperson Questions

I myself usually custom-define all my macros with ~. 1, 2, 3, 4 and p are good keys to put macros on (for me).

You usually gain less than 1 piety when you get that message.

Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 11th May 2019, 13:33

Re: Short Newperson Questions

petercordia wrote:I myself usually custom-define all my macros with ~. 1, 2, 3, 4 and p are good keys to put macros on (for me).

You usually gain less than 1 piety when you get that message.


Don't I actually have to use some sort of code for the key? Like in that macro text, it was \{368} for F1 -- how do I know what numbers to use for my keys, in other words: how do I know what to put between {} for the number "1" on my keyboard?

This is really frustrating. In a current game the alter of the god I want to worship spawned behind crystal walls, so I can see it's there, but the rest of the walls are rock and there is no door and I don't have any wands of digging. Am I supposed to wait until I find such a wand, learn an appropriate earth spell, or get really lucky with a teleport scroll??
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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 11th May 2019, 14:21

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:This is really frustrating. In a current game the alter of the god I want to worship spawned behind crystal walls, so I can see it's there, but the rest of the walls are rock and there is no door and I don't have any wands of digging. Am I supposed to wait until I find such a wand, learn an appropriate earth spell, or get really lucky with a teleport scroll??


There is a downstairs, though. Once you explore the level just under it (D:current+1), use ctrl-f and type "altar" or the god name. The altar will be listed, select that using a key that's shown on the left. The menu will be something like:
a : stormy altar of Qazlal D:4
b : snail-covered altar of Cheibriados D:5
...
Just type the letter to the left and you will be shown the altar you chose. Press "enter" and your char will take a direct route to it.
Keep in mind, a chamber like this is visible from both sides. If you can't see a downstairs, you won't be able to automatically navigate to it.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 11th May 2019, 17:30

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thanks much. I finally discovered the staircase :)

It looks like I got mutated with "Wild Magic (1 rank)". Are the (increased) chances of spell failure then updated in my overlay? It seemed like they were, but my couple of low-level spells I still use (summon imp) show 1% failure rate now, and I've miscast twice recently, could just be really freak luck but is the real failure rate hidden?

Are those numbers listed in that macro help text something like ASCII keys, and I have to find out which ones are mapped to my keys here?

thanks tons

Tomb Titivator

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Post Saturday, 11th May 2019, 18:43

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Its probably just bad luck. The probabilities should update. PS: Wild magic can be useful for spells like confuse and LRD where spell power matters a lot.

For the codes, if I type ~ 1 z a SPACE ENTER, it will tell me that I've created a macro for za\357 or whatever. It automatically implements the correct code for SPACE. It might do the same for other keys.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 12th May 2019, 00:09

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Very new to StoneSoup and have these few questions to which I found no answer after 5+ minutes of searching, thanks much in advance:
- can I train http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Evocationsas a Trog worshipper or is that considered "magic"?


Besides the replies already given, in general, the game tries to avoid gotchas here. If it doesn't warn you, you're probably allowed to do it.

That said, a Troggie gets the warning on memorising spells - it is possible to already know a spell, convert to Trog, switch the spell skill on, and lose piety for training a spell skill - but this is only a modest piety loss, not a penance-worthy offense. In general, it is still fine to be guided by the principle that if you can do it with no warnings, it's OK.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Sunday, 12th May 2019, 10:33

Re: Short Newperson Questions

THanks much, very helpful.

Odd that I keep miscasting Call Imp with 1% fail chance. I seem to miscast this a lot, looking at the last 31 casts of it it was 4 times.

Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 15th May 2019, 16:12

Re: Short Newperson Questions

When starting out as a noncaster and choosing a weapon, how do you know what weapon you will find later? I mean starting out with an axe and training it is all good, but what if the tasty weapons I find or are gifted are swords? Do you just stick with the skills you trained?

Tomb Titivator

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Post Wednesday, 15th May 2019, 18:18

Re: Short Newperson Questions

You never know what you'll find later :D
You can mitigate unlucky RNG by using aqcuirement scrolls though.

If I start the game committing to a particular weapon I will almost always stick with that weapon, and I think this is optimal. You can almost always get a good base-type of the weapon, brand it, and enchant it up to +9. The result will be on-par with most artefacts.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Wednesday, 15th May 2019, 20:44

Re: Short Newperson Questions

You don't know what weapons you will find, so you should generally pick the most powerful starting weapon without regard to item finds. For example, if you are playing Minotaur Fighter or Gargoyle Fighter, the war axe is the best choice because of its high base damage; if you are playing Merfolk Fighter, the trident is the best choice because of Merfolk's much higher polearms aptitude.

Whether or not to train a second weapon skill depends on the specific situation. If the new weapon is better right now with your current skills, then it is generally a good idea to start using that weapon and training that skill. For example, this occurs if you have a +0 war axe, have 7 levels in axes skill, and find a +2 whip of electrocution. The whip is already better and will only continue to get better as you train M&F, so you might as well do so.

It's more complicated when you find a weapon that isn't immediately better, but could be if you trained it. Then you have to think about how big the investment is, and whether or not that investment would be worth it. For example, if you have a +0 war axe, have 7 levels in axes skill, and find a +2 long sword of freezing. The long sword isn't immediately better, but probably will be if you train 10 levels of long blades. But is it really worth it to spend that much exp for no immediate benefit, when the payoff later isn't even guaranteed because you might have found a different better weapon? In this example situation I probably would not. If, however, it was a +0 demon blade of freezing, that would be a bigger incentive, and I would probably start training long blades.

Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 16th May 2019, 04:00

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:When starting out as a noncaster and choosing a weapon, how do you know what weapon you will find later? I mean starting out with an axe and training it is all good, but what if the tasty weapons I find or are gifted are swords? Do you just stick with the skills you trained?


Broad axe is almost always the best weapon to roll with, especially the longer the game you intend to play. One good thing about them is that they are also fairly common. If I find a good mace early on, I don't worry much at all about training 3-9 skill in maces until I find a decent axe, because of the cross training, and also because maces are quite strong early on when you gain more benefit from almost always trying to keep the fights to 1v1 and in corridors. Rarely, I make exceptions if I find an eveningstar or demon whip that I'll continue with maces as my primary and axes as my secondary, but all non-axes almost always get annoying later. Maybe if I found a demon trident super early on and I was a merfolk, well yeah then I'd use that, but there must be a very compelling reason for me to care about anything but early maces and broad axes. I guess pole arms are also ok on centaurs.

Opening game, I tend to avoid training specific weapons and instead focus on fighting, and swapping between the weapons I find that have the highest enchant levels and a variety of brands (venom daggers are particularly good), and then do a fair amount of weapon swapping. The exception is perhaps short blades, if you are a "non-caster" where stabbing comes into play, but I don't think you'd appreciate style until you're more experienced, even then it still sucks. Besides the above tactics, I also tend to focus on using an early found ranged weapon or throwing with it trained up to 6-9 ish, more or less depending on how good of a drop it is. Hand crossbows are my favorite overall all other factors being equal. Ranged weapons do a great job keeping things going smoothly until you get a good melee weapon and then the usage of them from me usually tapers off gradually until I only use them for very specific types of encounters and more specific reasons. Also, burn your wands up early to mid game, don't try to conserve them too much for late game.

Dump most of your xp in the meanwhile into fighting/armour/shields with a smattering of evasion/evocations/invocations, that can keep you busy until you get the drop. Vampiric axe is a game changer because you can pwn most of the whole game with it, until extended.

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 16th May 2019, 07:16

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thank you very much!
Part of my problem is trying to understand the part "x is already better". How do you know that x is better than y with q amounts of skill trained? There is no training dummy and no damage output listed on the char screen. How can you tell when it is worth it?
Thanks for the tip of starting with fighting and getting weapon skills up later - it is exactly the opposite of the advice I'd seen earlier!

Tomb Titivator

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Post Thursday, 16th May 2019, 10:46

Re: Short Newperson Questions

to figure out whether "x is already better than y", the easiest method is to smash some monsters with x and y and see which one does better. (Don't do this with scary things!) A thing to be careful of here is the attack delay - a weapon with a long attack delay will appear to be better than it actually is if you only look at damage per attack.
Alternatively, you can look through the wiki - the documentation on weapon damage is quite good.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 16th May 2019, 13:16

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Thank you very much!How do you know that x is better than y with q amounts of skill trained? There is no training dummy and no damage output listed on the char screen. How can you tell when it is worth it?

It's kind of inconvenient, but the best way is: create a new character, go into wizard mode (cheat mode), customize the character to look like your real character (set stats and skills, create items), then create a monster you want to test against (generally it should be an important monster for where your real character is now, such as a centaur or orc priest for D, or black mamba for lair), then use fsim, which will give you the numeric attack results averaged over a huge number of trial attacks. The in-game help (I think the controls page of the manual) will tell you what buttons to press to do all of this.

By making one change (equipping a different weapon, raising a skill or stat, etc.) and redoing the fsim, you can see the effect of your change. This is how you tell which weapon is better, whether fighting or weapon skill is better, whether str or dex is better, etc. If you ever hear advice telling you that accuracy is important and you should raise dex for it, this is how you prove whether or not it's correct (spoiler: it's not correct).

onomastikon wrote:Thanks for the tip of starting with fighting and getting weapon skills up later - it is exactly the opposite of the advice I'd seen earlier!

That's because it is questionable advice. It is the equivalent of: don't train your most immediately useful skill because it might not be useful to your future character, so instead, train weaker skills until you have more information. Basically it is a large detriment to your early game for a small improvement to your mid & late game (the total amount of experience owned by a level 10 character is only about 5% of the total owned by a level 15 character).

It can be enjoyable to play the early game on hard mode this way (with proper tactics, even suboptimally skilled characters can consistently win), but be aware that if you are not very good at the game yet, this skilling strategy will cause you to splat more characters in the early game.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 16th May 2019, 15:42

Re: Short Newperson Questions

stormdragon wrote:
onomastikon wrote:Thank you very much!How do you know that x is better than y with q amounts of skill trained? There is no training dummy and no damage output listed on the char screen. How can you tell when it is worth it?

It's kind of inconvenient, but the best way is: create a new character, go into wizard mode (cheat mode), customize the character to look like your real character (set stats and skills, create items), then create a monster you want to test against (generally it should be an important monster for where your real character is now, such as a centaur or orc priest for D, or black mamba for lair), then use fsim, which will give you the numeric attack results averaged over a huge number of trial attacks. The in-game help (I think the controls page of the manual) will tell you what buttons to press to do all of this.

By making one change (equipping a different weapon, raising a skill or stat, etc.) and redoing the fsim, you can see the effect of your change. This is how you tell which weapon is better, whether fighting or weapon skill is better, whether str or dex is better, etc. If you ever hear advice telling you that accuracy is important and you should raise dex for it, this is how you prove whether or not it's correct (spoiler: it's not correct).

onomastikon wrote:Thanks for the tip of starting with fighting and getting weapon skills up later - it is exactly the opposite of the advice I'd seen earlier!

That's because it is questionable advice. It is the equivalent of: don't train your most immediately useful skill because it might not be useful to your future character, so instead, train weaker skills until you have more information. Basically it is a large detriment to your early game for a small improvement to your mid & late game (the total amount of experience owned by a level 10 character is only about 5% of the total owned by a level 15 character).

It can be enjoyable to play the early game on hard mode this way (with proper tactics, even suboptimally skilled characters can consistently win), but be aware that if you are not very good at the game yet, this skilling strategy will cause you to splat more characters in the early game.

Note also that while the two skills are close, and also in the <5 range, and you're low level, fighting actually contributes slightly more than weapon skills do to immediate survivability per XP spent. That's because while fighting doesn't reduce your attack delay, it does increase your max HP, which as a percentage of your total is significant early (in those first few levels a few extra hps from fighting is a large jump, the amount of XP that it takes to increase your weapon damage by that much more than fighting does for the same XP is much higher than the amount of XP it takes to get those extra hps) This effect goes away once you've gotten a few levels under your belt (Weapon skill overtakes fighting relatively early in terms of effectiveness), but it's always worthwhile to get a few levels of fighting right off the bat before working on your weapon skill (Also weapon skills produce the least effect (pre-weapon delay) per point of skill at the lowest levels) and fighting is always competitive with weapon skill in terms of value.

To put a concrete example to it: a human gladiator at XL 1 has 16 hps, raising Fighting from 2->4 puts your max HPs to 19, a gain of 18.75% max HPS and it will increase damage (with a +0 war axe) by around 3-4%, on the other hand, raising axes skill from 2 ->4 raises your +0 war axe damage by about 10-12%, Fighting is actually the better choice in the *immediate* sense at XL1, nothing controversial about it.

Now as a slightly higher level counterexample, that HuGl at XL7 with 5 fighting & axes has 56 hps, raising Fighting by 2 from 5->7 increases your max hps to 60, a gain of 7.1% max hps+ around 5-6% more damage. Raising your axes skill at that point instead from 5->7 increases your +0 war axe damage by about 15%

In short, very early, fighting is actually better than a weapon skill for immediate benefit, given equal costs to raise either. Presuming that you're reasonably good at creating optimal 1:1 situations for combat, the balance between hp and damage becomes less simple when you start to throw more complicated situations into the mix.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 16th May 2019, 15:54

Re: Short Newperson Questions

I agree that fighting is a powerful skill but it should be leveled approximately 1:1 with weapon skill, because the skills are close in usefulness, which means that whichever one is cheaper is more cost-effective, roughly. My point was to advise against ignoring weapon skill.

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Post Thursday, 16th May 2019, 16:17

Re: Short Newperson Questions

stormdragon wrote:I agree that fighting is a powerful skill but it should be leveled approximately 1:1 with weapon skill, because the skills are close in usefulness, which means that whichever one is cheaper is more cost-effective, roughly. My point was to advise against ignoring weapon skill.

And I was saying you *should* ignore weapon skill for the first 2 or so points of fighting, because it's significantly better *at first*, then weapon skill catches up and surpasses it (not much later) I guess if you're trying to give general advice for the whole game then "don't ignore either one" is a good thing to say, but "train only fighting at the start of the game" is actually better advice than "train both fighting and weapon skill 50% each at the start of the game". It's just a question of *for how long* that is good advice, (I would say "train only fighting" is good advice for like the first, and possibly part of the second dungeon level)
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Post Thursday, 16th May 2019, 16:32

Re: Short Newperson Questions

I agree with that too (subjectively, I consider it a small and complicated enough optimization to not be worth mentioning). More specifically, my point was to advise against waiting for a weapon find before training weapon skill, on a weapon-based background.

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Post Thursday, 16th May 2019, 16:42

Re: Short Newperson Questions

I would also like to mention that svendre seems to really really like shields and axes. I do not think that many players agree with this one sided judgement. Two handed weapons are more common than the strong one-handed ones and are fine. They do not allow a shield but do significantly more damage. I personally consider the battleaxe the best base type for axes. Really good one handed weapons, like demon whips or tridents are somewhat rare, and shields are also not super common, so finding a good two-handed weapon is much easier and you could be strong much earlier.

Also, non-axe weapons are also completely fine all game. Reaching is also a good special ability on polearms, and maces simply do more damage, that is always useful, and even long blades are ok.

If you train a weapon to 8-10 level early and then switch to a much better one in a different category, you really do not loose much. Later skill levels are so much more expensive that these early low skill levels won't matter.

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Post Friday, 17th May 2019, 20:06

Re: Short Newperson Questions

There's one more factor I didn't mention. When you first start the game, it's random what weapons you will find. You may find a great poison dagger which doesn't deal most of it's damage from lowering it's delay, or an electric dagger, which also deals a lot of damage at lower skill. You might also find a +8 flaming great sword. In fact, in all probability, the first collection of more highly enchanted weapons with an assortment of brands will almost certainly be a wacky assortment instead of a nice collection of all long blades (or whatever). It's true I like axes and shields, but I'm not completely stuck with them depending on the game. Anyone who pays attention to my games would notice that I carry a wide variety of the top quality melee and ranged weapons with me all through the early to mid game, and choose them very carefully per encounter until there's a more obvious weapon for all ocassions.

Early on, you don't have much weapon skill, you won't for awhile. The brands that are good early on do damage fairly independently of skill. The brands which are multiplicative (fire, ice, etc.) do a better job at higher skills. But for the first few levels, and even possibly for a decent amount of the opening game (which is a critical part of the game), there is an enormous value in choosing your weapon. I'll give some examples:

Big slow giant zombie (evasion is terrible), I switch to a flaming halberd.. even with my terrible accuracy, the zombie will be hit easily, hit hard with little AC, and it'll die quickly with little chance to hit me.

Pack of bees (hard to hit, vulnerable to poison), I switch to poison dagger or poison anything, or something accurate..

Hydra. I switch to a flaming weapon to chop it's heads off, or a freezing weapon to slow it down, or a ranged weapon to avoid taking hits

Basilisk. I switch to a weapon with MR+ on it

Orc warrior in plate mail, poison and electric would be nice instead of trying to crush it.

Monster on the edge of what I can kill... hello draining... drain it a bunch and it becomes more of a sissy, then finish it off with something else..

As a new player, I advise you view the statistics of each monster you are unsure about, and the stats of each weapon option you have. Use your common sense, if you see vulnerabilities, exploit them. Don't use clumsy weapons vs. agile opponents, don't use agile wimpy weapons against heavily armoured opponents. Use your brain, you don't have to approach every problem with the same approach.

etc. etc. etc., I could go on for many more examples, and knowing what to do in a huge variety of situations is the mark of an experienced player, but, here's the thing: fighting helps for *all of those encounters*, on the other hand maybe I found an unbranded war axe and trained it up more. Well, chances are that poison dagger will still do a better job against a pack of bees with fighting trained higher, AND armour higher, AND evocations higher... etc. In the argument where my strategy was put under the bus as questionable, one huge thing was left out, and that is opportunity cost. XP you didn't spend in a specific weapon early on went somewhere else, and somewhere else has value too. What it means is you waited to train a weapon skill just a little later until after you found a reason to, a weapon worthy enough that you will get ample leverage out of the xp. If we're talking very small amounts of weapon training between 3-6 it's not that big of a deal either way except for the very, very beginning. But if we're talking about trying to get mindelay on a crappy unbranded weapon of a type which will suck later anyways, yeah you could get more mileage out of having better defenses, or slightly higher evocations and unloading the charges in your wand. If you found a great set of armour, train armour more. If you found a super balling ring you think you'd never stop using and it came with a ton of dex, well train evasion a little more, sure why not. Do what makes sense based on drops. When you don't have any drops that make any clear sense what to do, then generalize.

As the game progresses, you tend to get mobbed by bigger and bigger piles of monsters at once. This is when picking and choosing specific weapons drops off in value, and why axes picks up in value, because you can hit more things at once. When you're surrounded, you might have 8 things taking a shot at you in one turn. That means your defenses get tested 8 times. If you've got a weapon that splatters just one of them, well next round guess what it'll be 7 shots at you and you'll have to repeat this dance a long time. This highlights the extreme value in defenses over offense. Count the number of turns to reduce the enemies to zero when you add cleaving and it helps significantly in reducing incoming damage. Add to this a god with life on kill, and or vampiric, and you'll have the keys to the game - despite what anyone else tells you.

You can read numbers in fsim and theorycraft all you like, but it's no substitute for experience. It isn't the 1v1 encounters which are most dangerous in the game, it's when you are facing multiple threats and combinations of attacks from enemies. If you manage a perfect 1v1 encounter with every single monster in your path, well, good luck with that - that's not how the game works. Try it, sure, increase your odds if you can manage it and need to, but it's better to be prepared for the worst the game can throw at you.

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Post Saturday, 18th May 2019, 18:16

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thanks much, this is very helpful!
I still haven't won a game yet, I seem to be getting closer and closer but still get clobbered unexpectedly, last time was just some no-name Merperson grunt in Shoals and I didn't realize he was holding a really badass weapon until I was already fatally poisoned and couldn't run away fast enough in the changing tides.
One thing I can't really experiment with is this Executioner's Axe that Trog just gave my new guy. I can't just wield and unwield at will because it has the Vampiric brand. It seems pretty cool, but I don't have much axe skill yet, and it would mean not using my nice shield, which so far is keeping me nicely alive (also found an amulet of reflection which seems to work nicely with it). Can I ask: Does the chance to trigger vampiricism work (also) on the secondary cleave hits of the axe, giving me then 1d*damage healing from them too? I think I have to wait until I am sure that no more hydras are coming (so be finished with lair and shoals, and also spider) and also be sure I can handle the unliving, right?
One other thing I'm not sure of -- for playing a caster, I always choose INT when leveling up, but for a beserker, wouldn't it be wise to choose DEX so I can hit things with those weapons which have -dex?

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Post Saturday, 18th May 2019, 18:49

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:One other thing I'm not sure of -- for playing a caster, I always choose INT when leveling up, but for a beserker, wouldn't it be wise to choose DEX so I can hit things with those weapons which have -dex?


It would probably be wise to choose STR to do more damage when you hit things. All else aside, few weapons have -DEX and you can just not use them.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 18th May 2019, 18:55

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Can I ask: Does the chance to trigger vampiricism work (also) on the secondary cleave hits of the axe, giving me then 1d*damage healing from them too?


Unless it has been changed, the brand works on secondary hits.

onomastikon wrote:One other thing I'm not sure of -- for playing a caster, I always choose INT when leveling up, but for a beserker, wouldn't it be wise to choose DEX so I can hit things with those weapons which have -dex?


You have to keep in mind that Dex is only one factor that works towards weapon accuracy: you also have accuracy from the weapon skill, Slay+ bonuses, the enchantment on the weapon itself... I'll agree with @damerell on this one, you're most likely to have it better with Str instead of Dex.
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Post Sunday, 19th May 2019, 06:29

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Thanks much, this is very helpful!
I still haven't won a game yet, I seem to be getting closer and closer but still get clobbered unexpectedly, last time was just some no-name Merperson grunt in Shoals and I didn't realize he was holding a really badass weapon until I was already fatally poisoned and couldn't run away fast enough in the changing tides.
One thing I can't really experiment with is this Executioner's Axe that Trog just gave my new guy. I can't just wield and unwield at will because it has the Vampiric brand. It seems pretty cool, but I don't have much axe skill yet, and it would mean not using my nice shield, which so far is keeping me nicely alive (also found an amulet of reflection which seems to work nicely with it). Can I ask: Does the chance to trigger vampiricism work (also) on the secondary cleave hits of the axe, giving me then 1d*damage healing from them too? I think I have to wait until I am sure that no more hydras are coming (so be finished with lair and shoals, and also spider) and also be sure I can handle the unliving, right?
One other thing I'm not sure of -- for playing a caster, I always choose INT when leveling up, but for a beserker, wouldn't it be wise to choose DEX so I can hit things with those weapons which have -dex?


A very early vampiric executioner's axe is cool, but it's not really all that great for a few reasons. As you pointed out, your skill sucks. You'll miss a lot. Also, you'll take a long time swinging it which is dangerous when you combine it also with the typical weaker defenses of a lower level character. Additionally, as you figured out already, it has a big food cost to go back and forth between, and that is counter to a lot of the strategies I just outlined for you in the previous message (weapon swapping). On the flip side, if all your other weapons suck, it could still be the best option for a limited number of enounters (living, easy to hit stuff). Honestly, I pretty much ignore all 2 handed weapons despite the cries of foul advice from several other players. Oh well. If you want an easy win, take a gargoyle fighter and go from maces over to axes (with shields). I recall this one game where I had this totally badass gargoyle with atrocious AC and at least not terrible EV, good resists... and I was rolling with an executioner's axe at high skill (this was into late game), and while it was good enough to win with, I distinctly recall feeling weaker than a comparable 1-hander flavor, not because I didn't have ample damage output, but because of the difference in the amount of damage received.

It takes a long time to be able to effectively use a weapon like that, and if you go past a 3 rune game, and have very high skills, by that point too many enemies are demons and stuff that won't give you any life from vampiric. Holy is the brand you want. In extended, when you have ample XP to bring the skill way up, I'd say a holy executioner's axe could be great. Especially if you're worshipping TSO, because in that case the extra damage will likely more than make up for the lost shields via life on kill and denying enemies turns.

I believe vampiric does trigger on secondary hits. Just keep in mind that the secondary hits don't hit as hard, and vampiric drains based on damage delivered. Even though axes hit all around you, it's still very important to choose which target you want to be the primary. Usually, go for the strongest, or the one that can hurt you the worst first. I advise you don't use tab. It's an easy way to play, but I think the results are inferior to manually selecting targets for many reasons.

Most casters will want INT, if they are pure casters. I think hybrids are stronger because of the way that you get more bang for your buck when you can take more skills at lower levels, so in those cases I do STR/INT split and usually STR is still first and INT pumped a little later. A berserker will want STR almost exclusively. Dex is pretty meh. I don't worry about dex unless I'm really struggling to hit stuff, or it's like below 6-9.

Snake Sneak

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Post Sunday, 19th May 2019, 18:46

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thank you very much for all these replies.

My other weapons do not suck, they are strangely enough almost all short blades however (got a nice +5 antimagic quick blade, and two interesting artefacts with resists and brands I can use) and I'm a minotaur beserker so it feels weird, do have a falchion (I know they are not that great) that came with +8 and protection and cold resist + dex, and I have been using that too because the protection seems kinda nice atm. I don't have many scrolls of enchant weapon, sadly, and shops don't have them, so I don't know how great my +1 vampiric executioner's axe will be, and I can't really try it now (to train the axe skills) because i still have to do at least shoals and spider to get a rune, and there will probably be hydras there (I already cleared lair otherwise), and I don't want to have to constantly switch weapons. Trog also gave me a triple sword, but it's only +1 and has "slicing" which I think is a kind of weak brand, no? I am sort of liking the shield of protection I bought for cheap too, so I like sticking to 1h, even though that may be silly. Have a backup buckler of MR+ in case I need it. Maybe also silly to use a buckler just for MR? Got REALLY lucky and found +3 gloves of slaying +5, and I also have a pair of "refuge" gloves (MR++) with otherwise nothing on it -- it probably almost never makes sense to lose that much offense for gaining MR++??
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Slime Squisher

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Post Sunday, 19th May 2019, 19:40

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Trog also gave me a triple sword, but it's only +1 and has "slicing" which I think is a kind of weak brand, no?

Actually, on a weapon with a high base damage like that, vorpal is pretty decent. There is no way to stop the bonus damage. Still, the brands you want more are freeze and later antimagic.

Have a backup buckler of MR+ in case I need it. Maybe also silly to use a buckler just for MR? Got REALLY lucky and found +3 gloves of slaying +5, and I also have a pair of "refuge" gloves (MR++) with otherwise nothing on it -- it probably almost never makes sense to lose that much offense for gaining MR++??

On a berserker, both the buckler and glove swaps are unnecessary for MR purposes. Hand of Trog provides all the MR you'll ever need, and the Gauntlets of War are one of the most desirable fixedarts.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 20th May 2019, 09:51

Re: Short Newperson Questions

OK thanks.
Any tips then on where I should spend my scrolls of enchant weapon? I still find myself using short blades just because those seem the best weapon I have right now for the circumstances, but I sort of hope I can use a better 1h or even the executioner later on (my short blade aptitude is lower than for any other weapon).
Edit: where can I find out how many auts it takes to switch weapons?

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Post Monday, 20th May 2019, 12:39

Re: Short Newperson Questions

In the top-left you can see the time spend in your whole games so far, with in brackets the amount of time your last action took. If you swing a weapon at nothing with Ctr + arrow key, you can see how much time a weapon swing takes.

An antimagic quickblade sounds like a fantastic weapon in one-on-one fights against dangerous casters (eg Orbs of Fire in the late game), especially since you have the option of going berserk (which will make quickblade damage output non-sucky). There's nothing wrong with training it to min-delay. (It's very cheap to do so)

I can usually only get one weapon up to +9 in a 3-rune game. You'll get a power boost when you enchant a weapon. It's up to you when you want that power boost.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 20th May 2019, 16:44

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Any tips then on where I should spend my scrolls of enchant weapon?


Think long-term about what you want as your final weapon: two hander or one with a shield. Trog gifts weapons with some frequency, so you might get a +6 exec. axe or broad axe just by playing more. Or a +11 randart, the angry god is generous. The weapon you want to spend those enchant scrolls on is the one you'll rely on the most in the late game.

^ Actually, that's not all that helpful without context. Really, if you want specific advice, it is best to provide a full chardump - having a complete listing of the current equipment and skills does a lot for both you and anyone who wants to help out. :)
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2019, 18:30

Re: Short Newperson Questions

OK thanks much. I think I am going to stick with a shield, it seems to be keeping me alive so far, and I have more variety in brands on-hand for 1-handers.
I am hoping for my first win. I'm just not sure about the last step.
I have cleared Lair and got 2 runes from Spider and Shoals. I have cleared D15, Orc, and Elf, and Vault 1-4. IIUC I can get the third rune I need from Vault 5. I've heard that V5 is hairy, and that Zot is hairier still. So my question is:
- Am I supposed to go somewhere else first to get more experience? And if so, where?
I am level 21 now already. Am I supposed to go all the way to 27 before getting the rune, or is 27 just for extended-game 4+ scenarios and I should try my luck with Zot?

thanks much

Blades Runner

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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2019, 19:16

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Usually you do depths before 3rd rune. You don't have to, but it's usually more straightforward.

Most species won't hit XL 27 until after 3rd rune, usually some time in Zot. If you do extended you'll be XL 27 before getting all of slimy/silver/abyssal rune most likely, and have much more XP to invest in support spells/skills. Extended and Zot are built to be capable of killing careless XL 27 characters even with great gear so be careful.

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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2019, 19:20

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:OK thanks much. I think I am going to stick with a shield, it seems to be keeping me alive so far, and I have more variety in brands on-hand for 1-handers.
I am hoping for my first win. I'm just not sure about the last step.
I have cleared Lair and got 2 runes from Spider and Shoals. I have cleared D15, Orc, and Elf, and Vault 1-4. IIUC I can get the third rune I need from Vault 5. I've heard that V5 is hairy, and that Zot is hairier still. So my question is:
- Am I supposed to go somewhere else first to get more experience? And if so, where?
I am level 21 now already. Am I supposed to go all the way to 27 before getting the rune, or is 27 just for extended-game 4+ scenarios and I should try my luck with Zot?

thanks much

XP gets a lot more available as you go deeper, if you're clearing every level, you'll probably hit XL27 sometime in Zot before you get to the bottom in a 3 rune game.

V5 is hairy more in the amount of stuff it throws at you, and it requires different tactics than you're probably used to, if you want it here's a quick spoiler run-down:
Spoiler: show
V:5 starts with you surrounded in the middle of of a four-quadrant map, the guards surrounding you are of the type you've fought before in the vaults, however if you get bogged down fighting them, you're going to attract attention from every which way, all four quadrants of V:5 are packed with a lot of tough monsters, nothing you haven't dealt with so far, but there's just *more of them* also there's very very few 1-corridor-wide places, none at all on some maps.

There's a 3 corridor wide hallway between each of the four quadrants leading N/S/E/W and a 2 corridor wide hallway along the edges surrounding the map, each quadrant has an opening at the center, and one in the corner (the contents of the quadrants vary) what you want to concentrate on is *not getting overwhelmed by sheer numbers* there are a couple different tactics for doing so:

1. Break through the initial welcoming party (either blink or fear) and make a break for one of the side corridors (doesn't matter which they all are the same, use haste to avoid taking much damage while fleeing) once you're in a corridor (you want to be about halfway between the central corridor and the corner of the map) *and only then* do you start hammering away, the welcoming party and most of the quadrant you're closest to, with any luck you'll take care of the following party from the center before the group from the corner arrives en-masse. If you get into any trouble at all *teleport* and do it early, like before you're remotely at risk, you'll end up somewhere random, but keep in mind critters are heading towards the last sound they heard, so towards the center (from your arrival) or towards the place where you were last fighting, hopefully you'll land somewhere away from all the nastiness, and only have to fight a couple things before being able to rest and reposition, if you end up in a bad spot, TP again.

2. Start with the teleporting, ignore the welcome party (or blow them up with some kind of initial attack in some fashion) it helps a lot to have magic mapping, so you know if the spot you land in is decent, otherwise you're just starting with the 'If you get into trouble' part from 1.

3. Try to stairdance the welcome party. This works amazingly well, *if* a warden doesn't lock the staircase on you, to stairdance the welcoming party, you want to pull them, in groups, upstairs and beat them up there, rest, go down, and pull up another group. Wardens make this annoying, as they can lock the staircase preventing you from going up. If they do that, you either need to kill them asap or have a plan B (possibly one of the above) The problem comes if you spend too long at the bottom of the stairs fiddling around, the *tougher critters* from the quadrants will start to arrive, and they can be harder to escape from (so if things go sour, you may end up needing to escape and it might take several risky teleports to do so)

For 3. The risk is more variable, and will only very occasionally make things horrible, most of the time it will be significantly easier than the other two, 1. and 2. are more consistent strategies, and will nearly always result in the same amount of difficulty, harder than the "easiest" result of doing 3. but easier than the hardest result of doing 3.

Things that help a lot: Area effect damage (wand of clouds and cloud offense spells are amazing in the corridors) axes, javelins, bolt spells, anything that lets you do damage to a bunch of stuff helps. Regeneration, any kind of passive healing (Gods, plain old being a troll, etc.) not as important as it is in the abyss, or hell, but getting a break from combat to rest requires a lot of effort in V:5 (at least until you kill everything) Shields are slightly less effective than they are elsewhere, but still pretty good. You want to have rN available to reduce the damage from shadow dragon breath, and preferably rElec for titans and blue dragons, as well as rF and rC for the more common fire/cold giants and the various weapons you might face. If you're missing a resistance of some sort, you will need to be aware of it, and emphasize killing off that sort of critter quickly (preferably at range with some sort of peircing attack) even more true than it is elsewhere, you need to prioritize convokers (to prevent more critters from arriving) and sentinels (because they will mark you, and that pulls *everyone* to the party, and you really don't want that)

Having MR+++ reduces the odds of being marked by sentinels to a low level, usually you can kill them before they mark you with MR+++ (with MR++++ marking is no longer likely enough that you need to worry about it) with less MR, you'll probably be marked almost instantly, and you'll need to be aware of the fact that you're marked and flee early and often, until you clear it and get away from the area.

Note all this presumes you're "normally" powerful, if you're super overpowered, you can just like blow up everything with no effort, and if you're underpowered, you're going to have a hard time and struggle pretty badly, and probably die (You might die even if you're "normally" powerful, pay attention to everything on screen at all times and you'll probably do OK)
Spoiler: show
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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2019, 19:41

Re: Short Newperson Questions

A character dump would be helpful :)
There might be an extremely safe way to do Vaults:5 or Slime, but it you don't post a character dump we won't be able to tell you which.

For me it's usually safest to do A bit of depths -> Slime -> Vault 5 -> rest of depths -> Zot (ending with 4 runes)
If you clear everything in a 3 (or 4) rune game you usually end up at XL 27 at the end of your game (that is after you already have 3 runes and probably after entering Zot).

Both Slime and Vault:5 are hairy and may well get you killed the first time you do them. The problem is that they place you in very unique situations, and you probably won't know what the proper tactics are for those situations. It might help to watch someone with a similar character build do these area's (like Ultraviolet4 on youtube).
To give you an idea of the level of danger: Of my first 6 characters to enter Slime and Vaults:5, about half died. For some of these deaths I was following a good plan, I just wasn't aware of all the caveats.

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Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2019, 20:00

Re: Short Newperson Questions

OK thank you -- I may just try to get that rune then -- sorry, what is a character dump and how do I post it?

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Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2019, 20:18

Re: Short Newperson Questions

If you press shift-3 (or #) the game will generate a description of your current character, which is known as the 'dump'.
If you play online if will post a link to the dump in the spectator's chat box (bottom right), and you can post the link in the forum.
If you play offline, I think the chat box will tell you where the character dump is saved to.

For this message the author petercordia has received thanks:
onomastikon

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6317

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 22nd May 2019, 21:53

Re: Short Newperson Questions

petercordia wrote:If you press shift-3 (or #) the game will generate a description of your current character, which is known as the 'dump'.
If you play online if will post a link to the dump in the spectator's chat box (bottom right), and you can post the link in the forum.
If you play offline, I think the chat box will tell you where the character dump is saved to.

I will add that when you copy/paste it into the forums, surround it with [code ] tags
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For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks: 2
onomastikon, petercordia

Snake Sneak

Posts: 123

Joined: Wednesday, 1st May 2019, 19:31

Post Saturday, 25th May 2019, 08:26

Re: Short Newperson Questions

THank you very much. So let's see if I get this right, I cut out a whole bunch of stuff, messages, or this would have been endless, I'll post that at the end.
I've probably trained suboptimally, but I don't think it makes that much of a difference.
I feel I've been incredbily lucky -- I have not found a shop for a while that has anything I need. The first shop I found on D:5 (!) was selling Gold Dragon Scales (!!) for incredibly cheap, once I was able to buy them, I have been feeling pretty good. I think the rest of my gear is great. I know nobody has ever sung the praises of an amulet of reflection, but I honestly find it very very helpful and have not taken it off since I found it.
- Because I really cannot imagine getting much better gear (I suppose a wonderful artefact shield or amulet would be icing), I'm not sure if there is anything I should do now that I am basically done with Depths. I have lots of cash but nothing to spend it on (not even any useful scrolls in shops). I guess now is the time to do V:5, get the rune, and try Zot for my first win?
- One thing I do not understand, and that is why my dump or my Abilities screen says "weak (-2 str.)", and why my Int is also down 2 points, making me dangerously close to "stat 0" if that happens again. Not sure when or how that happened, I suppose I wasn't reading everything close enough. So.... can I get rid of these bad abilities over time / gaining experience, or do I have to drink a potion of mutation and hope for the best?
THANK YOU!
(follows: my char dump)

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.23.2 (tiles) character file.

Game seed: 6266366359700147649

Phflllbbb the Slayer (Minotaur Berserker)          Turns: 54884, Time: 14:58:11

Health: 238/238    AC: 50    Str: 33      XL:     24   Next: 21%
Magic:  29/29      EV: 15    Int:  2 (4)  God:    Trog [******]
Gold:   2296       SH: 20    Dex: 13      Spells: 23/23 levels left

rFire    + + .     SeeInvis .   d - +9 broad axe (drain)
rCold    + . .     Gourm    .   B - +2 shield {AC+3}
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   f - +9 gold dragon scales
rPois    +         Spirit   .   G - +2 hat {MR+}
rElec    +         Reflect  +   o - scarf {cloud immunity}
rCorr    .         Harm     .   U - +3 pair of gauntlets of War {Slay+5}
MR       ++...                  z - +2 pair of boots {Stlth+}
Stlth    ..........             m - +3 amulet of reflection
HPRegen  0.49/turn              h - ring "Wouheepp" {rElec rF+ Str+4}
MPRegen  0.21/turn              n - ring of Siont {AC+3 Slay+5 Stlth+}

@: studying 2 skills
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2, low mp 1, weak 1
}: 2/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled
a: Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Renounce Religion


You are on level 5 of the Depths.
You worship Trog.
Trog is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 8 branches of the dungeon, and seen 43 of its levels.
You have visited 1 bazaar.
You have also visited: Ossuary and Volcano.

You have collected 6086 gold pieces.
You have spent 3790 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 d - a +9 broad axe of draining (weapon)
 j - the +8 falchion of Icvuuf {protect, rC+ Int+7 Dex+4}
   (Trog gifted it to you on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   It protects the one who uses it against injury (+AC on strike).
   
   It affects your intelligence (+7).
   It affects your dexterity (+4).
   It protects you from cold.
 t - a +9 scimitar of holy wrath
 u - the +10 whip of the Pharaoh's Fist {drain, rPois Str+4 Int+3}
   (You took it off a deep elf archer on level 2 of the Depths)   
   
   A truly terrible weapon, it drains the life of those it strikes.
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It protects you from poison.
 M - the +4 falchion "Juulokod" {flame, rElec rC+}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   It has been specially enchanted to burn those struck by it, causing extra
   injury to most foes and up to half again as much damage against particularly
   susceptible opponents. Big, fiery blades are also staple armaments of
   hydra-hunters.
   
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
 W - a +9 antimagic demon trident
Missiles
 H - 6 steel javelins (quivered)
 N - 4 poisoned javelins
Armour
 f - +9 gold dragon scales (worn)
 o - a scarf of cloud immunity (worn)
 z - a +2 pair of boots of stealth (worn)
 B - a +2 shield of protection (worn)
 G - a +2 hat of magic resistance (worn)
 U - the +3 pair of gauntlets of War (worn) {Slay+5}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+5).
Jewellery
 h - the ring "Wouheepp" (left hand) {rElec rF+ Str+4}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [ring of protection from fire]
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It protects you from fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
 m - a +3 amulet of reflection (around neck)
 n - the ring of Siont (right hand) {AC+3 Slay+5 Stlth+}
   (You acquired it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   [ring of protection]
   
   It affects your AC (+3).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+5).
   It makes you more stealthy.
 q - an uncursed ring of positive energy
 L - the ring "Miopp" {rCorr MR+ Int+2 Stlth+}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   [ring of resist corrosion]
   
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It makes you more stealthy.
 Q - a ring of the Octopus King {rC+ AC+1 EV+1 Str+1 Int+1 Dex+1}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Vaults)   
   
   [ring of protection from cold]
   
   It affects your AC (+1).
   It affects your evasion (+1).
   It affects your strength (+1).
   It affects your intelligence (+1).
   It affects your dexterity (+1).
   It protects you from cold.
Wands
 a - a wand of flame (124)
 b - a wand of digging (14)
 r - a wand of scattershot (17)
 s - a wand of acid (10)
 A - a wand of iceblast (27)
 C - a wand of enslavement (6)
 K - a wand of polymorph (32)
 T - a wand of disintegration (29)
Scrolls
 e - a scroll of enchant weapon
 l - 11 scrolls of identify
 x - 11 scrolls of remove curse
 y - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 D - 3 scrolls of silence
 E - 24 scrolls of teleportation
 O - 3 scrolls of fear
 R - a scroll of holy word
 V - a scroll of summoning
 Y - a scroll of blinking
Potions
 i - 11 potions of curing
 k - 7 potions of might
 p - 2 potions of invisibility
 v - 4 potions of haste
 w - 5 potions of agility
 F - 3 potions of resistance
Books
 S - a manual of Axes
 Z - a manual of Evocations
Miscellaneous
 g - a phial of floods
 I - 3 phantom mirrors
 J - a lightning rod (4/4)
 P - a lamp of fire
Comestibles
 c - 59 rations
 X - 9 chunks of flesh


   Skills:
 * Level 24.2 Fighting
   Level 10.5(12.8) Short Blades
 + Level 13.0(14.5) Long Blades
 + Level 19.8(21.2) Axes
 + Level 14.2(18.6) Polearms
 - Level 6.4 Throwing
 * Level 22.3 Armour
 * Level 15.1 Dodging
 - Level 0.2 Stealth
 - Level 15.4 Shields
 * Level 14.1 Evocations


You have 23 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.
Your spell library is empty.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:6            Lair (6/6) D:9
 Shoals (4/4) Lair:3        Snake (4/4) Lair:3        Slime (0/5) Lair:6
    Orc (2/2) D:9             Elf (3/3) Orc:2        Vaults (4/5) D:13
  Crypt (0/3) Vaults:3     Depths (5/5) D:15            Zot (0/5) Depths:5

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Makhleb
Okawaru
Qazlal
Sif Muna
Trog
Uskayaw
Wu Jian
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One
Beogh

Shops:
D:5 [[   D:6 *   D:7 [   Orc:2 [=?%   Elf:2 =}=   Elf:3 }   Snake:4 *
Vaults:3 [   Depths:1 :

Portals:
Hell: Depths:1 Depths:3 Depths:4 Depths:5
Abyss: Depths:4
Pandemonium: Depths:3

Annotations:
D:3 1 runed translucent door, Crazy Yiuf
D:4 1 runed translucent door, Woidumm's ghost, amateur DsGl
D:5 1 runed translucent door
Snake:3 Mara
Elf:3 2 transporters, Hulashix's ghost, journeyman MiBe
Depths:1 3 runed translucent doors, WeeknightWizard's ghost, veteran DEFE
Depths:2 1 runed translucent door


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.
Your magical capacity is low. (-10% MP)
You are weak. (Str -2)



Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 |
---------------+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Shields        |  1        2  3     4  5  7  9 12 13 14 15                               | 15.4
Fighting       |     4        5     6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 | 24.2
Axes           |     4        5                       7  9                11 14 17 19    | 19.8
Armour         |              4     6     8 10 11    12 13 15 17 18 19 20    21    22    | 22.3
Dodging        |              3        4           5  7        8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15    | 15.1
Polearms       |                    2  6  8  9 10          11          12 13       14    | 14.2
Throwing       |                       2  3           5  6                               |  6.4
Short Blades   |                             1  3  5  7  9    10                         | 10.5
Evocations     |                                         2  4  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 | 14.1
Long Blades    |                                         2  7  9 10 11 12          13    | 13.0
Stealth        |                                                                         |  0.2

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Hand axe          |    87 |   150 |     3 |       |       |       |       |       ||   240
       Headbutt          |    10 |    24 |    31 |   132 |   277 |   371 |   275 |   234 ||  1354
       Trident           |       |       |   338 |   218 |       |       |       |       ||   556
       Short sword       |       |       |       |   299 |   138 |    12 |     3 |       ||   452
       Rapier            |       |       |       |       |   468 |    11 |       |       ||   479
       Falchion          |       |       |       |       |   239 |   364 |    62 |    51 ||   716
       Quick blade       |       |       |       |       |   142 |   562 |    27 |       ||   731
       Demon trident     |       |       |       |       |    38 |   165 |   550 |   108 ||   861
       Scimitar          |       |       |       |       |       |    50 |    16 |    20 ||    86
       Broad axe         |       |       |       |       |       |       |   386 |   586 ||   972
Throw: Stone             |    12 |    23 |    16 |       |       |       |       |       ||    51
       Throwing net      |       |     5 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||     5
       Tomahawk          |       |     3 |    54 |   104 |   187 |    26 |     6 |       ||   380
       Javelin           |       |       |       |    25 |    79 |   171 |   306 |   168 ||   749
Invok: Berserk           |     1 |     2 |    10 |     6 |    20 |     9 |    17 |     7 ||    72
       Trog's Hand       |       |       |     4 |     2 |    12 |    16 |    14 |     9 ||    57
       Brothers in Arms  |       |       |       |     2 |     2 |       |     5 |       ||     9
 Abil: Evoke Flight      |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |       |     2 |     3 |     4 |     9 ||    18
       Lightning rod     |       |       |       |       |       |     4 |     4 |    20 ||    28
       Lamp of fire      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     7 ||     7
       Box of beasts     |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |     4 |     6 |     9 |    15 |    25 |     9 |    14 |     7 ||    89
       Potion            |       |       |       |       |    12 |    12 |     4 |     1 ||    29
 Stab: Distracted        |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |     1 ||     2
  Eat: Chunk             |     4 |     8 |    19 |    27 |    54 |    17 |    52 |    30 ||   211
       Ration            |       |       |     2 |     1 |     2 |    10 |     2 |       ||    17
Armor: Robe              |     3 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||     3
       Leather armour    |    17 |     3 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    20
       Scale mail        |       |    27 |    10 |   162 |   115 |       |       |       ||   314
       Chain mail        |       |       |    53 |    53 |       |       |       |       ||   106
       Gold dragon scale |       |       |       |       |   246 |   652 |   273 |   229 ||  1400
Dodge: Dodged            |    38 |    60 |    56 |   148 |   234 |   210 |   175 |   175 ||  1096
Block: Buckler           |    18 |    38 |    38 |       |       |       |       |       ||    94
       Reflection        |       |     2 |     2 |    10 |    73 |   108 |   118 |    66 ||   379
       Shield            |       |       |    66 |   420 |   743 |   938 |   583 |   482 ||  3232
Rpst.: Falchion          |       |       |       |       |    13 |    23 |     2 |     2 ||    40
       Scimitar          |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |     3 ||     4

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 306

Joined: Monday, 12th September 2016, 16:25

Post Saturday, 25th May 2019, 08:58

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:I feel I've been incredbily lucky -- I have not found a shop for a while that has anything I need. The first shop I found on D:5 (!) was selling Gold Dragon Scales (!!) for incredibly cheap, once I was able to buy them, I have been feeling pretty good. I think the rest of my gear is great. I know nobody has ever sung the praises of an amulet of reflection

I often use reflection, especially if I have a lot of SH to make reflective.

I suggest dumping the weapons golfbag. Of the weapons you have got, I would keep only the broad axe of draining and the +9 AM demon trident (which is of limited utility but will also do fine for hydras), seeing if there is an axe available for the draining-immune, and ensuring that only Axes is being trained. (You won't train the skill for a weapon you don't have or, with automatic skill training, don't use, but you also don't want to do more than let Polearms increase by cross-training from Axes). You have a large and basically useless investment in Long Blades; fortunately berserkers get plenty of "spare" XP.

(You should bear in mind I can't see the weapons that are in the dungeon but not in the dump. Perhaps you have an amazing polearm or Long Blade and should instead swap to that.)
- One thing I do not understand, and that is why my dump or my Abilities screen says "weak (-2 str.)", and why my Int is also down 2 points, making me dangerously close to "stat 0" if that happens again. Not sure when or how that happened, I suppose I wasn't reading everything close enough. So.... can I get rid of these bad abilities over time / gaining experience, or do I have to drink a potion of mutation and hope for the best?

Your STR is reduced by a mutation - you can tell because it is listed in the 'A' screen. Unfortunately you have deleted the messages that would tell us how it happened. It is not worth wasting a potion of mutation on getting rid of so trivial a penalty - especially since you still have 33 STR and a whopping 10 slaying.

Your INT is temporarily reduced. You can tell because the original value is listed in brackets. This is got rid of by gaining experience, not by time. If you are worried about stat zero (which is not immediately fatal), bring some jewellery with INT+ which you can swap in if necessary; jewellery swapping is quick.
Last edited by damerell on Saturday, 25th May 2019, 09:01, edited 1 time in total.
Ascension reports with too many words since 2016.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 787

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Saturday, 25th May 2019, 09:00

Re: Short Newperson Questions

I agree, you've got very good gear. You do have low MR. I know you can get MR++ from Trog's hand, but I'd still try to have at least MR+++, especially in V:5.
The amulet of reflection is probably sub-optimal, but it's really convenient & fun, so I'd also keep it.
In my opinion, a scarf of cloud immunity is also convenient but sub-optimal. Any +2 cloak is probably better in most circumstances (provided you have rPois). I usually prefer cloaks of MR+.
Probably a large shield would be an improvement (if if comes with a brand or enchantment) even if you can't get more shield skill.
You have no heal wound potions. If there are any for sale, I'd buy them.
Your -2 Str is a mutation, and can be removed with a potion of mutation. It's probably not worth getting rid of; potions of mutation can be quite valuable.
Your -2 Int is caused by attribute drain, and will come back as you gain experience. It is probably worth increasing Int or carrying a ring of +Int to avoid stat 0.

I don't understand why you'd carry and train so many different melee weapons. If you have axes, you don't usually need short blades, long blades, polearms or maces. It would have been more useful to train slings, throwing, evocations or something like that, and the inventory space could be used to carry more potions/wands/scrolls. Edit: I'd keep the +9 antimagic demon trident too.
That said all your main skills are high enough, so it probably hasn't sabotaged your character too much.

If you can find a scroll of vulnerability you could also do Slime quite safely instead of (or in addition to) V:5. The trick you can use is to make TRJ vulnerable, then polymorph him. (For this to be safe you have to stand on a stair when you polymorph TRJ, and you also have to make sure you're comfortable dealing with the 'minor' threats in Slime.)

For this message the author petercordia has received thanks:
onomastikon
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