New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen


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Post Monday, 1st April 2019, 17:06

New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

The +8 Flail of Beogh's Chosen {reach, los +2, stlth-}

A +8 dire flail. Increases line of sight by 2.

Wielded by Saint Roka.
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Last edited by MisterPersonMan on Monday, 1st April 2019, 19:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Monday, 1st April 2019, 18:58

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

Flail with reach... so basically a trident?
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Post Monday, 1st April 2019, 19:07

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

Rast wrote:Flail with reach... so basically a trident?


It's a dire flail, so it's less similar than that, but it is essentially a polearm. I just made it a flail for flavor - plus I already had a dire flail sprite that worked well.
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Post Monday, 1st April 2019, 20:52

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

MisterPersonMan wrote:
Rast wrote:Flail with reach... so basically a trident?


It's a dire flail, so it's less similar than that, but it is essentially a polearm. I just made it a flail for flavor - plus I already had a dire flail sprite that worked well.

Yeah, it's more similar to a halberd (same base damage, also two-handed) It takes less skill to hit min delay and has built-in +8, in exchange for los and stealth penalties. (I'm not sure that's worth the tradeoff)

The tile is nice.
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Post Monday, 1st April 2019, 22:54

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

1. Does the chosen enchantment or properties have any thematic connection with Beogh? I don't really think so, which makes me wonder why it's named after Beogh. I guess +LOS gives you more range to smite unbelievers?
2. It seems unnecessary to make this a reaching flail. It could be either a polearm or a flail, there's no need to combine them. Other attempts at "combined" unrands (armour of Talos, captain's cutlass) have been removed or simplified.

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Post Tuesday, 2nd April 2019, 13:47

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

chequers wrote:1. Does the chosen enchantment or properties have any thematic connection with Beogh? I don't really think so, which makes me wonder why it's named after Beogh. I guess +LOS gives you more range to smite unbelievers?
2. It seems unnecessary to make this a reaching flail. It could be either a polearm or a flail, there's no need to combine them. Other attempts at "combined" unrands (armour of Talos, captain's cutlass) have been removed or simplified.


1. I guess I could have given it a fire brand or something, but that really doesn't have much to do with Beogh either. Really, the reason it's named after Beogh is because it's intended to be a weapon for Saint Roka. I'll change it anyway, probably.

2. It doesn't need reach. You're right. I just thought it'd be a bit cool to have a flail with reach, so I made it that way. Doesn't do much in the way of actually making it a better unrand.
Last edited by MisterPersonMan on Tuesday, 2nd April 2019, 13:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tuesday, 2nd April 2019, 13:56

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

(Updated version. Hopefully this one works better.)

The +8 Flail of Beogh's Chosen {Fire, los +2, stlth-}

A +8 dire flail. Increases line of sight by 2. Orc followers gain experience faster while it's wielded around them.

Wielded by Saint Roka.


I think this version might work better, considering what I've heard from people. Now it has a better connection to Beogh, and is much more useful for his followers. Also would make finding Saint Roka more impactful for a follower of Beogh. Thoughts?
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Post Tuesday, 2nd April 2019, 14:07

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

Would make it an interesting decision whether to kill Saint Roka or not. Probably it would be optimal to kill him, then take the flail before resurrecting him. Would make it more frustrating if he converted to you straight away, unless you're specializing in axes and don't want to wield the thing anyway?
I dunno. The Saint Roka interaction sounds tedious. Also, a +8 Flail of fire is less good than my typical end-game weapon. I can't think of any character which would wield this after he's capable of using a demon whip / morning star.

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Post Tuesday, 2nd April 2019, 14:28

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

petercordia wrote:Would make it an interesting decision whether to kill Saint Roka or not. Probably it would be optimal to kill him, then take the flail before resurrecting him. Would make it more frustrating if he converted to you straight away, unless you're specializing in axes and don't want to wield the thing anyway?
I dunno. The Saint Roka interaction sounds tedious. Also, a +8 Flail of fire is less good than my typical end-game weapon. I can't think of any character which would wield this after he's capable of using a demon whip / morning star.


The idea would be to use it for a while, before switching to something better. You'd still get the reward of having orcs of higher level, and you could always give it to a named follower. It doesn't have to be an endgame weapon - or at least that was the idea.
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Post Tuesday, 2nd April 2019, 23:49

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

I think it's a good change to switch to a non-reaching dire flail. But I'm not sure it's a good approach to have an artefact effect which helps only worshippers of a specific god in such a strategic way. You'd probably be incentivised to carry the weapon around all the time and swap to it right before the killing blow on monsters.

Here are some other Beogh-related effects I've thought of which might be better:
* While wielded, all killed friendly orcs are automatically resurrected (you'd need *Drain, *Contam, or some other way to prevent swapping as per above)
* While wielded, all killed friendly orcs leave a corpse (probably too obscure an effect)
* While wielded, all orcs become friendly
* On hit, smite a random enemy in LoS

Also, about base type, it might be better to choose a higher tier weapon. Saint Beogh and Orc Warlords/Knights have ~35% chance for axe, 30% chance for long blade, 20% chance for mace, and 10% chance for polearm. Additionally, Hill Orc aptitudes favour axe heavily. There are 4 axe about 6 long blade unrands. So I would favour an axe. Probably an exec, because there are two broad axe unrands, and wrath of trog (a similar thematic item) is a baxe.

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Post Wednesday, 3rd April 2019, 03:19

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

The Koreans taught us that Beogh is the god of reaching. I think it should be a halberd.

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Post Wednesday, 3rd April 2019, 06:24

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

chequers wrote:I think it's a good change to switch to a non-reaching dire flail. But I'm not sure it's a good approach to have an artefact effect which helps only worshippers of a specific god in such a strategic way. You'd probably be incentivised to carry the weapon around all the time and swap to it right before the killing blow on monsters.

Here are some other Beogh-related effects I've thought of which might be better:
* While wielded, all killed friendly orcs are automatically resurrected (you'd need *Drain, *Contam, or some other way to prevent swapping as per above)
* While wielded, all killed friendly orcs leave a corpse (probably too obscure an effect)
* While wielded, all orcs become friendly
* On hit, smite a random enemy in LoS

Also, about base type, it might be better to choose a higher tier weapon. Saint Beogh and Orc Warlords/Knights have ~35% chance for axe, 30% chance for long blade, 20% chance for mace, and 10% chance for polearm. Additionally, Hill Orc aptitudes favour axe heavily. There are 4 axe about 6 long blade unrands. So I would favour an axe. Probably an exec, because there are two broad axe unrands, and wrath of trog (a similar thematic item) is a baxe.


I also think an axe would look better on the orc, but it's too bad to throw away this tile. It's charming.
And I like this: * On hit, smite a random enemy in LoS. This is an ability appropriate to the topic.

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Post Wednesday, 3rd April 2019, 14:40

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

chequers wrote:I think it's a good change to switch to a non-reaching dire flail. But I'm not sure it's a good approach to have an artefact effect which helps only worshippers of a specific god in such a strategic way. You'd probably be incentivised to carry the weapon around all the time and swap to it right before the killing blow on monsters.

Here are some other Beogh-related effects I've thought of which might be better:
* While wielded, all killed friendly orcs are automatically resurrected (you'd need *Drain, *Contam, or some other way to prevent swapping as per above)
* While wielded, all killed friendly orcs leave a corpse (probably too obscure an effect)
* While wielded, all orcs become friendly
* On hit, smite a random enemy in LoS

Also, about base type, it might be better to choose a higher tier weapon. Saint Beogh and Orc Warlords/Knights have ~35% chance for axe, 30% chance for long blade, 20% chance for mace, and 10% chance for polearm. Additionally, Hill Orc aptitudes favour axe heavily. There are 4 axe about 6 long blade unrands. So I would favour an axe. Probably an exec, because there are two broad axe unrands, and wrath of trog (a similar thematic item) is a baxe.


I like the smiting idea, considering LoS would be increased. It'd fit perfectly. All orcs being friendly would make sense as well, and be of greater use to Beogh followers while still giving the bonus to non-followers.

On the subject of making it a different weapon... I could make it an axe. I'd make a new tile, of course, but the flail one didn't actually take that long. It might be harder to incorporate the same elements into an axe tile, but we'll see.

The +8 Battleaxe of Beogh's Chosen {Fire, LoS +2, Drain}

On hit, smite a random enemy in LoS.
While wielded, there is a 30% chance that an orc will become friendly when it enters LoS. If one is a follower of Beogh, this simply adds to the chance of converting orcs.


This version might work better.
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Post Thursday, 4th April 2019, 01:33

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

IMHO LoS +2 be harsh. Ba got a lot in return for Los +1. I think Los +1 is enough.
Like this? The +8 Battleaxe of Beogh's Chosen {Flame, LoS +1, Drain}

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Post Thursday, 4th April 2019, 08:37

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

MisterPersonMan wrote:The +8 Battleaxe of Beogh's Chosen {Fire, LoS +2, Drain}

On hit, smite a random enemy in LoS.



Battle Axe base damage is 15.

Smite damage is 7-17.

Smiting every turn is probably an 80% damage increase, on average. Too strong IMO.

A lot of good ideas in this thread, but a smite every hit is going to be way overpowered.
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Post Thursday, 4th April 2019, 10:36

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

That's a very simple problem to fix: change the 100% proc rate to something lower.

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Post Thursday, 4th April 2019, 11:36

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

how about 30% to bring it almost in line with electrocution brand, but a little bit bettter (Since smite is unavoidable and unresistable)

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Electrocution

EDIT: I forgot it was fire branded too. I say this weapon will be very strong even if you give it a 10% chance to smite!

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Post Thursday, 4th April 2019, 11:43

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

Quick thought about interesting mechanic...

For Beogh followers:

10% chance to smite random enemy per hit
On damage to your armies...
  Code:
Your army is wavering, Beogh lends his support!


Increase chance to smite enemies based on amount of damage taken.

For non Beogh followers...
50% Base chance to smite is higher because Beogh is angry you don't follow him.
10% a chance the weapon may smite you instead of an enemy.

  Code:
Beogh is placated by seeing the blasphemous non believers suffer


Chance to smite decreases based on amount of damage taken.

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Post Thursday, 4th April 2019, 12:55

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

delarado wrote:Quick thought about interesting mechanic...

For Beogh followers:

10% chance to smite random enemy per hit
On damage to your armies...
  Code:
Your army is wavering, Beogh lends his support!


Increase chance to smite enemies based on amount of damage taken.

For non Beogh followers...
50% Base chance to smite is higher because Beogh is angry you don't follow him.
10% a chance the weapon may smite you instead of an enemy.

  Code:
Beogh is placated by seeing the blasphemous non believers suffer


Chance to smite decreases based on amount of damage taken.


That's quite a nice idea. If that was implemented in place of smiting randomly every hit, would the weapon work well like that? Or would I need to change more?
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Post Friday, 5th April 2019, 01:52

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

I think it's better to be simple.
On hit, 15% chance to smite random enemy per hit. If you are a believer in Beogh, this probability is double.

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Post Friday, 5th April 2019, 15:31

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

Think this would work?

The +8 Axe of Beogh's Chosen {fire, los +1, drain}

On hit, 15% chance to smite a random enemy. Chance is doubled for followers of Beogh.
While wielded, there is a 30% chance that an orc will become friendly when it enters LoS. If one is a follower of Beogh, this simply adds to the chance of converting orcs.
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Post Saturday, 6th April 2019, 06:16

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

MisterPersonMan wrote:While wielded, there is a 30% chance that an orc will become friendly when it enters LoS. If one is a follower of Beogh, this simply adds to the chance of converting orcs.


Well, To be honest with you, this is not very useful.
Problem: Roka emerges from the depths. Unless you're a believer in Beogh, there's no one to fascinate because you've already killed most of the orcs in the dungeon. If you are a believer in Beogh, you are given an orc in a state of fascination anyway. Either way, the function is not useful.
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Post Sunday, 7th April 2019, 06:58

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

Chance of friendly orcs for non-Beoghites seems like a very bad move.

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Post Sunday, 7th April 2019, 19:45

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

Here's my take on it:

+8 battleaxe of Beogh's Chosen (orcfestation, +rage)
Summons orcs when you kill enemies. Higher HD translates to bigger orc, discouraging scummy play like keeping rats around for emergency back-up. A big enough monster can generate an orc band a la Beogh reinforcements. Orcs are temporary summons and will return to Beogh's halls after some time. Beogh worship is made available to all races.

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Post Monday, 8th April 2019, 01:04

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

Croases wrote:Here's my take on it:
Beogh worship is made available to all races.


What happens if you worship Beogh and then throw that weapon away?

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Post Monday, 8th April 2019, 01:30

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

make beogh worship available to all races by default

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Post Monday, 8th April 2019, 06:15

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

sdynet wrote:What happens if you worship Beogh and then throw that weapon away?

Well dang. I added that as an unrelated "and let everyone worship Beogh while you're at it" comment, not as a thing related to the weapon, and I didn't realize it could be understood either way.
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Post Monday, 8th April 2019, 15:40

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

chequers wrote:Chance of friendly orcs for non-Beoghites seems like a very bad move.


I meant friendly as in "they won't attack you" rather than "they follow you". There's probably a better term to have used there. Sorry for the confusion there.

sdynet wrote:Well, To be honest with you, this is not very useful.
Problem: Roka emerges from the depths. Unless you're a believer in Beogh, there's no one to fascinate because you've already killed most of the orcs in the dungeon. If you are a believer in Beogh, you are given an orc in a state of fascination anyway. Either way, the function is not useful.


This is true.

Croases wrote:+8 battleaxe of Beogh's Chosen (orcfestation, +rage)
Summons orcs when you kill enemies. Higher HD translates to bigger orc, discouraging scummy play like keeping rats around for emergency back-up. A big enough monster can generate an orc band a la Beogh reinforcements. Orcs are temporary summons and will return to Beogh's halls after some time. Beogh worship is made available to all races.


This is an idea. This ability doesn't rely on situational things, like finding orcs.

I think this weapon is slowly getting closer to how it'd need to work.

The +8 Axe of Beogh's Chosen {fire, los +1, drain}
On hit, 15% chance to smite a random enemy. Chance is doubled for followers of Beogh.
Chance to summon orc when an enemy is killed with this weapon.

The more I toy with ideas for this in my head, the more I feel like it'd be a good addition to the game. I just don't know if the versions of the weapon I'm coming up with are good enough.
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Post Tuesday, 9th April 2019, 01:41

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

MisterPersonMan wrote:The +8 Axe of Beogh's Chosen {fire, los +1, drain}
On hit, 15% chance to smite a random enemy. Chance is doubled for followers of Beogh.
Chance to summon orc when an enemy is killed with this weapon.

The more I toy with ideas for this in my head, the more I feel like it'd be a good addition to the game. I just don't know if the versions of the weapon I'm coming up with are good enough.


I like their unique abilities. I think this weapon can be completed in three types.
A. On hit, 15% chance to smite a random enemy. Chance is doubled for followers of Beogh.
B. Chance to summon orc when an enemy is killed with this weapon.
C. On hit, 15% chance to smite a random enemy. Chance is doubled for followers of Beogh. And chance to summon orc when an enemy is killed with this weapon.
C is powerful, but I think it'll be okay since you've cost(LoS+1, drain) enough.
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Post Tuesday, 9th April 2019, 15:21

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

sdynet wrote:
MisterPersonMan wrote:The +8 Axe of Beogh's Chosen {fire, los +1, drain}
On hit, 15% chance to smite a random enemy. Chance is doubled for followers of Beogh.
Chance to summon orc when an enemy is killed with this weapon.

The more I toy with ideas for this in my head, the more I feel like it'd be a good addition to the game. I just don't know if the versions of the weapon I'm coming up with are good enough.


I like their unique abilities. I think this weapon can be completed in three types.
A. On hit, 15% chance to smite a random enemy. Chance is doubled for followers of Beogh.
B. Chance to summon orc when an enemy is killed with this weapon.
C. On hit, 15% chance to smite a random enemy. Chance is doubled for followers of Beogh. And chance to summon orc when an enemy is killed with this weapon.
C is powerful, but I think it'll be okay since you've cost(LoS+1, drain) enough.


Do you think this current version would work, or do you recommend any changes?

I might go ahead and turn this into a thread in Game Design Discussion soon, to see if it could possibly be added.
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Post Wednesday, 10th April 2019, 01:29

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

I'm going to try this weapon because I'm looking for fun. But for those who are obsessed with win rating, I think los+1, drain can seem annoying.
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Post Wednesday, 10th April 2019, 17:24

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

sdynet wrote:I'm going to try this weapon because I'm looking for fun. But for those who are obsessed with win rating, I think los+1, drain can seem annoying.


That's kind of the idea.
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Post Monday, 15th April 2019, 20:11

Re: New Unrandart: Flail of Beogh's Chosen

delarado wrote:
MisterPersonMan wrote:The +8 Battleaxe of Beogh's Chosen {Fire, LoS +2, Drain}

On hit, smite a random enemy in LoS.



Battle Axe base damage is 15.

Smite damage is 7-17.

Smiting every turn is probably an 80% damage increase, on average. Too strong IMO.

A lot of good ideas in this thread, but a smite every hit is going to be way overpowered.


This isn't an apples to apples comparison; base damage is increased by enchantment, strength, weapon skill, and fighting skill. Your battle axe final damage (once you've got it at min delay) is probably something like 60+; but then it's of course rolled several times and has a left-skewed distribution, it can miss, etc etc. One of the main benefits of smite being LOS targeted is removed when you have to hit something in melee to trigger it (can you hit one monster in melee and then smite something far away?).

That said additional damage is additional damage and it's powerful, so your last line is probably not wrong. It doesn't need to be 100%.

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