Is this randart great sword worth switching for?


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 14

Joined: Saturday, 1st September 2012, 00:21

Post Sunday, 28th October 2018, 00:12

Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

I was already very unsure whether this character should be training maces or polearms, but on lair:5 I just found
  Code:
the +10 great sword of Terror {freeze, +Inv rC++}

Is this a bonkers enough weapon that I should ditch my shields training for it?

If it matters, I'm planning to attempt a few optional CSDC challenges this game: entering vaults:5 by XL 18 and entering Zot by XL 20. Possibly extended as well if I don't run out of time. I've never tried anything like this before so any advice would be welcome!

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.22.1-1-ga44c0e5 (webtiles) character file.

tmoiynmwg the Blocker (Demigod Skald)              Turns: 17139, Time: 07:00:37

Health: 94/94      AC: 17    Str: 18    XL:     12   Next: 46%
Magic:  21/21      EV: 15    Int: 25    God:   
Gold:   1066       SH: 13    Dex: 15    Spells: 1/15 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis +   a - +2 morningstar (venom)
rCold    . . .     Gourm    .   U - +2 shield
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   k - +4 ring mail
rPois    .         Spirit   .   R - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec    .         Reflect  .   v - +2 cloak
rCorr    .         Harm     .   (no gloves)
MR       +....                  L - +1 pair of boots
Stlth    +.........             F - amulet of rage
HPRegen  0.25/turn              s - +4 ring of strength
MPRegen  0.17/turn              r - +3 ring of evasion {=R}

@: no status effects
A: high mp 1
a: Evoke Berserk Rage


You are on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 16 of its levels.
You have also visited: Labyrinth and Ice Cave.

You have collected 1066 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +2 morningstar of venom (weapon)
 b - a +0 hunting sling
 g - a +0 blowgun
 h - the +10 great sword of Terror {freeze, +Inv rC++}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra
   injury to most foes and up to half again as much damage against particularly
   susceptible opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures.
   
   It greatly protects you from cold.
   It lets you turn invisible.
 t - a +2 demon trident
Missiles
 e - 26 javelins
 l - a throwing net {=f=F}
 n - 7 steel tomahawks (quivered)
 x - 4 poisoned needles
 C - 28 sling bullets
 P - 135 stones
Armour
 k - a +4 ring mail (worn)
 v - a +2 cloak (worn)
 L - a +1 pair of boots (worn)
 R - a +2 helmet of see invisible (worn)
 S - a +0 pair of boots of stealth
 U - a +2 shield (worn)
Jewellery
 c - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
 f - an uncursed ring of flight
 p - an uncursed ring of positive energy
 r - a +3 ring of evasion (right hand) {=R}
 s - a +4 ring of strength (left hand)
 F - an amulet of rage (around neck)
Wands
 B - a wand of iceblast (8)
 D - a wand of paralysis (19)
 E - a wand of acid (12)
 H - a wand of digging (7)
 O - a wand of scattershot (3)
Scrolls
 w - 2 scrolls of fog
 y - 7 scrolls of teleportation
 J - 4 scrolls of amnesia
 M - 2 scrolls of fear
 N - a scroll of immolation
 T - 2 scrolls of remove curse
Potions
 j - a potion of might
 o - 7 potions of curing
 q - 5 potions of flight
 u - a potion of brilliance
 z - 2 potions of haste
 A - 2 potions of berserk rage
 I - a potion of mutation
 K - 3 potions of agility
 Q - a potion of lignification
Miscellaneous
 i - a box of beasts
 m - a sack of spiders
Comestibles
 d - 13 rations
 G - 2 chunks of flesh


   Skills:
 - Level 5.0 Fighting
   Level 3.7 Short Blades
 - Level 8.1 Maces & Flails
 - Level 4.7 Polearms
 - Level 3.1 Throwing
 - Level 0.8 Armour
 - Level 4.4 Dodging
 * Level 9.0 Shields
 * Level 2.1 Spellcasting
 - Level 6.0 Hexes
 - Level 7.5 Charms
 - Level 4.0 Necromancy
 - Level 2.0 Translocations
 + Level 7.8 Evocations


You have one spell level left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Infusion              Chrm           ####         1%          1    None
b - Spectral Weapon       Hex/Chrm       #####...     8%          3    ###....
c - Confuse               Hex            ####....     11%         3    ###....
g - Shroud of Golubria    Chrm/Tloc      ####......   9%          2    ##.....
r - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ####......   12%         3    ###....
s - Song of Slaying       Chrm           #####...     3%          2    ##.....

Your spell library contains the following spells:

 Spells                   Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
 Confusing Touch          Hex            ####..       3%          1    None
 Magic Dart               Conj           #...         38%         1    None
 Sandblast                Erth           #.....       38%         1    None
 Sting                    Conj/Pois      #...         38%         1    None
 Portal Projectile        Hex/Tloc       ###...       24%         3    ###....
 Dazzling Spray           Conj/Hex       ###...       36%         3    ###....
 Gell's Gravitas          Tloc           ##........   47%         3    ###....
 Passwall                 Tmut/Erth      #.......     54%         2    ##.....
 Poisonous Vapours        Pois/Air       #.....       54%         2    ##.....
 Searing Ray              Conj           #.....       54%         2    ##.....
 Mephitic Cloud           Conj/Pois/Air  #.......     77%         3    ###....
 Stone Arrow              Conj/Erth      #.....       77%         3    ###....
 Fulminant Prism          Conj/Hex       ###.......   77%         4    ####...
 Force Lance              Conj/Tloc      #.......     95%         4    ####...
 Metabolic Englaciation   Hex/Ice        ###.......   98%         5    ######.
 Yara's Violent Unravell  Hex/Tmut       ###.......   98%         5    ######.
 Iskenderun's Mystic Bla  Conj           #.......     99%         4    ####...
 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance  Pois           #.......     99%         4    ####...
 Petrify                  Tmut/Erth      #.......     99%         4    ####...
 Lee's Rapid Deconstruct  Erth           #.........   100%        5    ######.
 Venom Bolt               Conj/Pois      #.........   100%        5    ######.
 Dispersal                Tloc           ##........   100%        6    #######
 Controlled Blink         Tloc           N/A          100%        8    #######
 Disjunction              Tloc           ##........   100%        8    #######


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (9/15)             Temple (1/1) D:7            Lair (6/6) D:9
 Shoals (0/4) Lair:2       Spider (0/4) Lair:3        Slime (0/5) Lair:6
   Orc: D:9-12     

Annotations:
D:3 orc priest
D:4 crazy yiuf, exclusion: downstairs
D:5 orc warrior
D:6 orc warrior
D:9 Erolcha


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You have an increased reservoir of magic. (+10% MP)

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8778

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Sunday, 28th October 2018, 00:14

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Yes. That's way better than your current weapon and you only have 8 maces skill anyway.

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nago, Tmoiy

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 28th October 2018, 01:27

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

If you're in love with the shield, you could swap to demon trident.

You've badly overtrained shields, regardless

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duvessa

Temple Termagant

Posts: 14

Joined: Saturday, 1st September 2012, 00:21

Post Sunday, 28th October 2018, 02:20

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Hmm, could you elaborate on what I should have been training instead? Getting spectral weapon to be reliable with the shield seemed like the biggest priority to me.

bel

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Post Sunday, 28th October 2018, 03:49

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Usually you should be training your main weapon type in the beginning, with a few support/defensive skills thrown in here and there. For Skald, polearms are usually good. They work well with spectral weapon.

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duvessa, nago

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 28th October 2018, 04:25

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Training spell skills will improve your spell success more than training Shields, and training weapon skill will improve your accuracy and attack delay more than training Shields. So you never want Shields to be your highest skill. Think of Shields skill as like Dodging or Armour: it's a skill you train to improve your defenses after you have your weapon and spells working well.

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Airwolf, nago, Tmoiy

Temple Termagant

Posts: 14

Joined: Saturday, 1st September 2012, 00:21

Post Sunday, 28th October 2018, 05:49

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

That's good info, thank you! Still, when you care about mitigating both types of shield penalties, could it make sense to train more Shields than weapon or spell schools?

Spoiler: show
What happened this game was I started with a spear, got shafted from D:2 to D:4, but found a flaming rapier and switched to that. Later I found a flaming spear and switched back. Then I switched to maces for the morningstar of venom. And finally Urug had a +2 demon trident, which I figured was probably worth switching back to polearms for in the long term, but training more Shields than usual was a way to delay that decision for a while.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 28th October 2018, 16:06

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Tmoiy wrote:That's good info, thank you! Still, when you care about mitigating both types of shield penalties, could it make sense to train more Shields than weapon or spell schools?


No.

Shields skill will never make you better at spellcasting or better at fighting. All it does is remove part of the penalty from wearing a shield in the first place.

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duvessa

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 742

Joined: Friday, 6th January 2012, 12:30

Post Sunday, 28th October 2018, 19:31

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Rast wrote:
Tmoiy wrote:when you care about mitigating both types of shield penalties, could it make sense to train more Shields than weapon or spell schools?

No.

Shields skill will never make you better at spellcasting or better at fighting. All it does is remove part of the penalty from wearing a shield in the first place.

I think you meant to say "Training shields skill higher than spellcasting or fighting will never make you better at spellcasting or better at fighting compared to training spellcasting or fighting". You're also not answering the question because the question is about comparing the value of training shields to be better at BOTH spellcasting and fighting. In the quote you have to change "will never make you better at spellcasting or better at fighting" to "will never make you better at spellcasting AND better at fighting". I don't know if that's true but it probably is.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 624

Joined: Thursday, 23rd October 2014, 03:08

Post Sunday, 28th October 2018, 22:22

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Here is an explicit comparison for why you shouldn't train Shields to improve spellcasting. A buckler/shield/large shield imposes a penalty of 1.5/5/8.5 skill to your spell schools (i.e. your fail rates are calculated as if your spell school skills were reduced by that number), so every skill of shield has the same effect as training ~0.35 skill in the spell schools of the spell you're interested in (assuming you're a species with normal shield penalties.) If you have large sized penalties then the effect is closer to ~0.55 skill.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Sunday, 28th October 2018, 22:45

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Also note that the penalty doesn't affect spell power, only spell success.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 14

Joined: Saturday, 1st September 2012, 00:21

Post Sunday, 28th October 2018, 23:53

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Allow me to ballpark a bunch of numbers... For a regular shield, 1 point of Shields is equivalent to ~1/3 of a point in all spell schools for the purpose of spell success. If xp costs are roughly equal, then it makes sense to train more Shields if the spells whose success rate I care about span 3 or more schools. As a bonus, each Shields point also reduces attack delay by ~0.1 auts and boosts SH by 0.2; however, a similar investment in spell schools would instead boost spell power by ~1.5. And of course, 1 point of weapon skill would reduce attack delay by 0.5 auts.

This situation still seems quite close to me, but I agree that I probably did overtrain Shields slightly. Thanks for an informative discussion :D

Vestibule Violator

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Post Monday, 29th October 2018, 14:56

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Note that even Formicids, with their high Shield aptitude and large-size-modifiers for shields, don't have any spell schools that are worse at the same rank than shields (even when only looking at spell success.)

Good to know.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 29th October 2018, 17:05

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Tmoiy wrote:if the spells whose success rate I care about span 3 or more schools.


That's a pretty bad if.

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duvessa, nago

Temple Termagant

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Post Monday, 29th October 2018, 19:22

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Why?
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Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 29th October 2018, 20:19

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Almost no character will want to spread their experience around that many spell schools, as well as Armor, Dodging, Shields, and Weapon. It's just too thin, you can feasibly max all of these in a 15-rune marathon game but you'll never survive long enough to get there unless you specialize early and branch out later. Any given character benefits greatly from specialization. Think about it this way, you can train up your armor and shields and sword and spells to be a jack of most trades, and you'll lose every time to a straight 1v1 slugfest against a character that put all their available XP into armor and axes, or to one that sunk all their xp into Fire Magic and can explode you into dust before you even enter their LOS. But if you've spread between Fighting, Armor, Dodging, Shields, Long Blade (for example), Charms, Necromancy, Air Magic, Conjurations..... All of these have maybe half to a third of the level they could have had at this point and your half-assed Static Discharge barely tickles that gold dragon that's all up in your face whereas a dedicated air mage could blow it out of the dungeon with a couple of Ball Lightnings.

If you want to spread around all your magic experience, you don't have room for armor and shields, and may barely have room for a weapon skill. If you want to go hard on melee, you won't have much available XP for high level spells. If your chosen spells span 3 or more schools, you need to either pare down the list of spells you're trying to cast, or give up on killing dudes in melee, because you're a wizard now.

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duvessa, nago, Rast, RoGGa

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Post Monday, 29th October 2018, 20:47

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

PseudoLoneWolf wrote:Almost no character will want to spread their experience around that many spell schools, as well as Armor, Dodging, Shields, and Weapon. It's just too thin, you can feasibly max all of these in a 15-rune marathon game but you'll never survive long enough to get there unless you specialize early and branch out later. Any given character benefits greatly from specialization. Think about it this way, you can train up your armor and shields and sword and spells to be a jack of most trades, and you'll lose every time to a straight 1v1 slugfest against a character that put all their available XP into armor and axes, or to one that sunk all their xp into Fire Magic and can explode you into dust before you even enter their LOS. But if you've spread between Fighting, Armor, Dodging, Shields, Long Blade (for example), Charms, Necromancy, Air Magic, Conjurations..... All of these have maybe half to a third of the level they could have had at this point and your half-assed Static Discharge barely tickles that gold dragon that's all up in your face whereas a dedicated air mage could blow it out of the dungeon with a couple of Ball Lightnings.

If you want to spread around all your magic experience, you don't have room for armor and shields, and may barely have room for a weapon skill. If you want to go hard on melee, you won't have much available XP for high level spells. If your chosen spells span 3 or more schools, you need to either pare down the list of spells you're trying to cast, or give up on killing dudes in melee, because you're a wizard now.

There are so many bizarre things here that I dunno what to say. I suspect that this is some joke.

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Tulse, VeryAngryFelid

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Tuesday, 30th October 2018, 08:14

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Why?
Btw, it's one of the few sentences I read where I 'being a wizard in dcss' has sense.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 30th October 2018, 08:54

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Because it is not a MP game so having weaker character does not mean you will lose. You can use a nice buckler, armour does not help in robe, many casters use more than 2 schools, there is enough XP to have all important skills at high levels etc.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
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Post Tuesday, 30th October 2018, 13:06

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

PseudoLoneWolf wrote:Think about it this way, you can train up your armor and shields and sword and spells to be a jack of most trades, and you'll lose every time to a straight 1v1 slugfest against a character that put all their available XP into armor and axes, or to one that sunk all their xp into Fire Magic and can explode you into dust before you even enter their LOS.

How this makes any sense at all? Crawl characters don't fight each other, they fight monsters.
Even putting that aside, "a character that put all their available XP into armor and axes" will get his ass kicked for having low hp, low EV and no ranged ability.

PseudoLoneWolf wrote:Almost no character will want to spread their experience around that many spell schools, as well as Armor, Dodging, Shields, and Weapon.

Quite the contrary, almost all characters want something like that. Even berserkers want 5 or 6 skills, not 2.

PseudoLoneWolf wrote:But if you've spread between Fighting, Armor, Dodging, Shields, Long Blade (for example), Charms, Necromancy, Air Magic, Conjurations..... All of these have maybe half to a third of the level they could have had at this point

OK, let's just be serious for a minute. Low skill levels are extremely cheap, and high skill levels are extremely expensive. If you train a few secondary skills to lvl 8 or 10, your main skills will hardly notice.
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Snake Sneak

Posts: 109

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Post Tuesday, 30th October 2018, 15:11

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Magipi wrote:How this makes any sense at all? Crawl characters don't fight each other, they fight monsters.
Even putting that aside, "a character that put all their available XP into armor and axes" will get his ass kicked for having low hp, low EV and no ranged ability.


They do fight player ghosts, but that's secondary to my main point when I said that which was just a relative comparison of power. Obviously the two player characters won't be fighting each other directly, but we can compare their strengths. You do make a good point though, I assumed training Fighting was a given, since it is one, but I didn't point it out so you are correct. This character would have no health. Always train Fighting, on every character, there are no excuses.

Magipi wrote:Quite the contrary, almost all characters want something like that. Even berserkers want 5 or 6 skills, not 2.


Let's theorycraft it, then. Say we have a MiBe. It wants Fighting. Armor, Dodging, WepSkill. Choose either Throwing or Evo for a ranged attack, and optionally use a shield.

Now say you want to build the character that OP is talking about. You need Fighting, Armor, Dodging, Wepskill, (high) Shield, Spellcasting, Hexes, Charms, Necromancy, Evocations..... I admit that I don't know the mathematical discrepancies of the XP curve by heart, but the whole reason Gnoll exists as a race is because players wanted to do something like this and just outright couldn't (barring scumming the Abyss or Pan for irl months at a time). It also requires high stats to overcome penalties, so this is even further relegated to the domain of Chei worshippers. Not necessarily completely restricted to Gnoll^Chei, but..... that's what they're good at.

Magipi wrote:OK, let's just be serious for a minute. Low skill levels are extremely cheap, and high skill levels are extremely expensive. If you train a few secondary skills to lvl 8 or 10, your main skills will hardly notice.


Yeah but this depends where you are in the game. OP is in the Lair right now and has already wasted 11-20 skill levels worth of XP spread over a couple skills. Being a generalist is dangerous without the ridiculous +8 to all aptitudes that you get as Gnoll, and they need that just to keep up with a normal race, and will never reach the full power potential of a normal race. If OP just decides to put 8-10 levels into Armor right now, he just might even survive it, but he'll be behind the damage curve through at least one, possibly both, Lair runes (or farther, but as we go farther and farther out this gets less realistic).

I don't understand why you seem to think that specializing to your strengths is such a stupid idea? Eight levels of every skill might carry you far, but 20 levels of Axes, Fighting and Armor will carry you through Vaults on the back of your Tab key. I'm not trying to say that every character should stick to their archetype and never branch out into anything interesting ever, but I am saying that you need to pick and choose where and how much you branch out to keep from overextending yourself in too many different directions and having EVERY skill fall behind the curve.

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nago

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Post Tuesday, 30th October 2018, 16:13

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

If you are talking about only the early game, then yes, more focused skilling is better. Next time.

PseudoLoneWolf wrote:OP is in the Lair right now and has already wasted 11-20 skill levels worth of XP spread over a couple skills.

There is no such thing as "X skill levels worth of XP". The cost of skill levels is not constant. Low skill levels are extremely cheap, and high skill levels are extremely expensive. For the XP of raising a skill from 0 to 3, you can raise a skill from 10 to 10.5 (roughly). It becomes even more extreme at high levels, 24 to 27 is equivalent to 3 skills from 0 to 10.
Those 3 points in short blades look ugly, but they cost almost nothing.

PseudoLoneWolf wrote:Being a generalist is dangerous without the ridiculous +8 to all aptitudes that you get as Gnoll

The above DgSk is pretty much a normal skald. More or less all problems come from that stupid shield, replace it with a buckler, stop training shields at 4 (next time), and the character is okay.

PseudoLoneWolf wrote:If OP just decides to put 8-10 levels into Armor right now, he just might even survive it, but he'll be behind the damage curve through at least one, possibly both, Lair runes (or farther, but as we go farther and farther out this gets less realistic).

This is a skald with spectral weapon. He is definitely not far behind the damage curve (if at all), he should just pick a weapon and train it. (The great sword looks good, but the demon trident looks good too.) Any problems the character have can be fixed really fast.

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duvessa

Temple Termagant

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Post Tuesday, 30th October 2018, 17:59

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

For reference, here is the character now after the first rune. With the great sword killing power has been no issue at all, but I do feel a little weak defensively without the shield. But having several escape spells available now helps out. Heading into vaults next, which is scary!

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.22.1-1-ga44c0e5 (webtiles) character file.

tmoiynmwg the Carver (Demigod Skald)               Turns: 32410, Time: 12:22:25

Health: 126/126    AC: 25    Str: 18    XL:     16   Next: 45%
Magic:  27/30      EV: 16    Int: 28    God:   
Gold:   2722       SH:  0    Dex: 16    Spells: 0/28 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis +   a - +10 great sword of Terror {freeze, +Inv rC++}
rCold    + + .     Gourm    .   (shield currently unavailable)
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   P - quicksilver dragon scales
rPois    +         Spirit   .   R - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec    .         Reflect  .   v - +2 cloak
rCorr    +         Harm     .   V - +2 pair of gloves {Str+3}
MR       ++...                  S - +2 pair of boots {Stlth+}
Stlth    +++.......             F - amulet of rage
HPRegen  0.31/turn              p - ring of poison resistance
MPRegen  0.22/turn              L - ring of the Octopus King {rCorr AC+1 EV+1 Str+1 Int+1 Dex+1, =R}

@: no status effects
A: high mp 1
}: 1/15 runes: gossamer
a: Evoke Berserk Rage, Evoke Invisibility


You are on level 4 of the Spider Nest.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 5 branches of the dungeon, and seen 28 of its levels.
You have also visited: Labyrinth and Ice Cave.

You have collected 3610 gold pieces.
You have spent 888 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - the +10 great sword of Terror (weapon) {freeze, +Inv rC++}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra
   injury to most foes and up to half again as much damage against particularly
   susceptible opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures.
   
   It greatly protects you from cold.
   It lets you turn invisible.
 b - a +2 morningstar of venom
Missiles
 l - a throwing net {=f=F}
 r - 40 javelins (quivered)
 G - 11 steel tomahawks
Armour
 v - a +2 cloak (worn)
 P - quicksilver dragon scales (worn)
 R - a +2 helmet of see invisible (worn)
 S - a +2 pair of boots of stealth (worn)
 V - a +2 pair of gloves of strength (worn)
Jewellery
 f - an uncursed ring of fire
 n - an uncursed ring of positive energy
 p - a ring of poison resistance (left hand)
 F - an amulet of rage (around neck)
 L - a ring of the Octopus King (right hand) {rCorr AC+1 EV+1 Str+1 Int+1 Dex+1, =R}
   (You took it off a yaktaur on level 12 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of resist corrosion]
   
   It affects your AC (+1).
   It affects your evasion (+1).
   It affects your strength (+1).
   It affects your intelligence (+1).
   It affects your dexterity (+1).
Wands
 m - a wand of disintegration (15)
 s - a wand of clouds (6)
 B - a wand of iceblast (45)
 D - a wand of paralysis (34)
 E - a wand of acid (20)
 H - a wand of digging (7)
 O - a wand of scattershot (8)
 U - a wand of enslavement (9)
Scrolls
 e - a scroll of magic mapping
 g - a scroll of blinking
 w - 3 scrolls of fog
 y - 13 scrolls of teleportation
 J - 6 scrolls of amnesia
 M - 3 scrolls of fear
 N - 2 scrolls of immolation
 X - 3 scrolls of summoning
Potions
 c - 2 potions of ambrosia
 j - 2 potions of might
 k - 2 potions of resistance
 o - 10 potions of curing
 q - 8 potions of flight
 t - a potion of invisibility
 u - 4 potions of brilliance
 z - 3 potions of haste
 A - 2 potions of berserk rage
 I - 3 potions of mutation
 K - 3 potions of agility
 Q - a potion of lignification
 Y - a potion of cancellation
 Z - 5 potions of heal wounds
Miscellaneous
 h - 2 sacks of spiders
 i - 4 boxes of beasts
 W - a lightning rod (4/4)
Comestibles
 d - 40 rations


   Skills:
 - Level 7.1 Fighting
   Level 3.7(9.7) Short Blades
 * Level 13.4(13.6) Long Blades
 - Level 8.1 Maces & Flails
   Level 4.7 Polearms
 - Level 3.1 Throwing
 * Level 5.8 Armour
 - Level 7.0 Dodging
 + Level 3.8 Stealth
   Level 9.0 Shields
 - Level 6.5 Spellcasting
 - Level 6.0 Hexes
 - Level 7.5 Charms
 - Level 4.0 Necromancy
 - Level 3.0 Translocations
 - Level 2.0 Transmutations
 - Level 2.0 Air Magic
 - Level 2.0 Earth Magic
 - Level 6.4 Poison Magic
 - Level 11.0 Evocations


You cannot memorise any spells.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Infusion              Chrm           ####         1%          1    None
b - Spectral Weapon       Hex/Chrm       #####...     1%          3    None
c - Confuse               Hex            #####...     2%          3    None
d - Poisonous Vapours     Pois/Air       ####..       2%          2    None
g - Shroud of Golubria    Chrm/Tloc      #####.....   1%          2    None
k - Animate Skeleton      Necr           N/A          1%          1    None
l - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          4%          2    None
o - Apportation           Tloc           ####..       2%          1    None
p - Passwall              Tmut/Erth      ###.....     6%          2    None
r - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      #####.....   2%          3    None
s - Song of Slaying       Chrm           ######..     1%          2    None
w - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       #####...     1%          2    None
x - Olgreb's Toxic Radia  Pois           #####...     7%          4    ###....

Your spell library contains the following spells:

 Spells                   Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
 Confusing Touch          Hex            #####.       1%          1    None
 Corona                   Hex            #####..      1%          1    None
 Slow                     Hex            #####...     1%          2    None
 Sting                    Conj/Pois      ####         2%          1    None
 Sandblast                Erth           ###...       4%          1    None
 Portal Projectile        Hex/Tloc       ####..       4%          3    None
 Shock                    Conj/Air       ##..         6%          1    None
 Ozocubu's Armour         Chrm/Ice       ####....     6%          3    None
 Dazzling Spray           Conj/Hex       ####..       9%          3    None
 Gell's Gravitas          Tloc           ####......   9%          3    None
 Inner Flame              Hex/Fire       ####....     9%          3    None
 Mephitic Cloud           Conj/Pois/Air  ####....     9%          3    None
 Cause Fear               Hex            #####.....   9%          4    ###....
 Flame Tongue             Conj/Fire      #....        10%         1    None
 Freeze                   Ice            #...         10%         1    None
 Magic Dart               Conj           #...         10%         1    None
 Summon Small Mammal      Summ           #...         10%         1    None
 Call Imp                 Summ           #.......     14%         2    None
 Searing Ray              Conj           #.....       14%         2    None
 Throw Flame              Conj/Fire      #.....       14%         2    None
 Throw Frost              Conj/Ice       #.....       14%         2    None
 Static Discharge         Conj/Air       ##......     19%         3    None
 Stone Arrow              Conj/Erth      ##....       19%         3    None
 Leda's Liquefaction      Hex/Erth       ####......   19%         4    ###....
 Conjure Flame            Conj/Fire      #.......     28%         3    None
 Fulminant Prism          Conj/Hex       ####......   28%         4    ###....
 Airstrike                Air            ###.......   38%         4    ###....
 Petrify                  Tmut/Erth      ###.....     38%         4    ###....
 Force Lance              Conj/Tloc      ###.....     45%         4    ###....
 Yara's Violent Unravell  Hex/Tmut       ####......   45%         5    #####..
 Venom Bolt               Conj/Pois      ####......   56%         5    #####..
 Metabolic Englaciation   Hex/Ice        ####......   61%         5    #####..
 Iskenderun's Mystic Bla  Conj           #.......     67%         4    ###....
 Sticky Flame             Conj/Fire      #.......     67%         4    ###....
 Summon Ice Beast         Ice/Summ       #.......     67%         4    ###....
 Throw Icicle             Conj/Ice       #.......     67%         4    ###....
 Lee's Rapid Deconstruct  Erth           ###.......   75%         5    #####..
 Lightning Bolt           Conj/Air       ##........   86%         5    #####..
 Fireball                 Conj/Fire      #.........   95%         5    #####..
 Dispersal                Tloc           ####......   99%         6    ######.
 Freezing Cloud           Conj/Ice/Air   ##........   100%        6    ######.
 Ring of Flames           Chrm/Fire      ####......   100%        7    #######
 Controlled Blink         Tloc           N/A          100%        8    #######
 Disjunction              Tloc           ####......   100%        8    #######


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:7            Lair (6/6) D:9
 Shoals (0/4) Lair:2       Spider (4/4) Lair:3        Slime (0/5) Lair:6
    Orc (2/2) D:12            Elf (0/3) Orc:2        Vaults (0/5) D:14
 Depths (0/5) D:15       

Shops:
D:10 (   D:12 [   D:15 [   Orc:1 [   Orc:2 [*:(

Portals:
Trove: D:12 (give +2 ice dragon scales)

Annotations:
D:3 orc priest
D:4 crazy yiuf, exclusion: downstairs
D:5 orc warrior
D:6 orc warrior
D:15 exclusion: Roxanne, Roxanne
Spider:4 exclusions: 2 doors and spectral weapon


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You have an increased reservoir of magic. (+10% MP)

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1738

Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 02:48

Post Tuesday, 30th October 2018, 18:10

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Train more fighting

Temple Termagant

Posts: 14

Joined: Saturday, 1st September 2012, 00:21

Post Tuesday, 30th October 2018, 18:39

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Right now that's the plan after Armour reaches the next AC breakpoint.

I tend to train Fighting, Armour, and Dodging pretty evenly on medium armour characters, because I'm not sure how to meaningfully compare the relative benefits of each defensive skill. But your comment (and those of others) suggests that Fighting is somewhat better than the other two. Can anyone help quantify how much better?

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 771

Joined: Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 02:47

Post Tuesday, 30th October 2018, 19:44

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Bucklers are nearly always good on casters. Modest defense at an affordable investment.

Non Artifact medium shields are rarely worth it until vaults or later, and often never. A few caveats:
Large races usually want some defenses beyond fighting, and the lower investment make shields feel much more natural.
Your character might upgrade into lighter armor or find a source of wiz so that you have a surplus of spell success but need better defenses, allowing you to pick up and commit to a shield sooner than you otherwise would.
User avatar

Snake Sneak

Posts: 109

Joined: Saturday, 10th March 2018, 18:00

Post Wednesday, 31st October 2018, 15:42

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Tmoiy wrote:Right now that's the plan after Armour reaches the next AC breakpoint.

I tend to train Fighting, Armour, and Dodging pretty evenly on medium armour characters, because I'm not sure how to meaningfully compare the relative benefits of each defensive skill. But your comment (and those of others) suggests that Fighting is somewhat better than the other two. Can anyone help quantify how much better?


Fighting increases your max HP, increases your accuracy with all weapons, and your damage with all weapons. On most characters I play, I activate Fighting on turn 1 (to + level, not * focused level) and never turn it off again until it's maxed, if I get that far. Fighting does not increase your AC or EV but you WILL need that extra health, and characters who have no intention of ever skilling up Armor or Dodging at all will still benefit significantly from heavy investment in Fighting - perhaps even more than someone who DOES train armor, since the armor user at least has some damage mitigation to counteract their extra-tiny health pool from not training fighting. But every single character that enters the dungeon should train Fighting, and the best way to keep your HP in line with the difficulty curve is to ALWAYS be training Fighting, until it caps. Don't prioritize Fighting over other necessary tools (like your spell schools, for a caster) but don't neglect it either.

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2149

Joined: Saturday, 2nd February 2013, 09:52

Post Wednesday, 31st October 2018, 23:39

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

You are training Stealth?!
What the heck.

For this message the author Magipi has received thanks:
duvessa

Temple Termagant

Posts: 14

Joined: Saturday, 1st September 2012, 00:21

Post Thursday, 1st November 2018, 00:15

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

I was planning to do a fair amount of diving as well as the Abyss in order to enter Zot by XL 20 so some Stealth seemed like a good investment. Unfortunately in Zot I ran out of time to actually finish the game, but 9 out of 10 points for the week isn't too shabby. Thanks to everyone for your input!

Blades Runner

Posts: 554

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Thursday, 1st November 2018, 01:42

Re: Is this randart great sword worth switching for?

Skills tend to have a relationship where they multiply each other to a greater overall effect where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Consider the synergy between various abilities, spells, etc. The fact that lower level skills take much less xp is a huge factor to consider. It is very often a good idea to balance a larger number of skills but always considering factors:

#1 What dropped? Stuff you find can greatly affect when and what you train
#2 What are your stats, if they are even, then more skills may make more sense
#3 What are your aptitudes? If they are more even, then more skills may make more sense. Cherry pick the high aptitudes.
#4 What race/starting profession? This can have obvious consequences affecting what you train

There isn't a correct answer for all scenarios because it depends. If there is a fairly consistent path, it is that I would recommend building characters without spells or only with very low level spells for the first part of the game, until they are fairly competent without spells, then add higher level spells much later on as the icing on the cake. The reasons for this are many, but I'll say at least it has a fair amount to do with that you need decent AC for reliable games, and armour affects spellcasting a lot (adversely) as compared to many other methods of play. You get a lot more for your XP when every point you spend training spellcasting is already more effective for having already trained up armour because you can already cast more easily, and apply the spells more effectively with a higher defense in place.

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