Bring back Pakellas


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 13th September 2018, 23:52

Bring back Pakellas

Now that the big three wands have been history for a while, I think it's time we bring back Pakellas. The concept is still interesting. If the god is considered too weak, maybe make it gift evokables more often.
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Post Friday, 14th September 2018, 00:42

Re: Bring back Pakellas

Sprucery wrote:Now that the big three wands have been history for a while, I think it's time we bring back Pakellas. The concept is still interesting.
Is it? I found that Pakellas games felt like playing a conjurer or summoner that uses V instead of Z. I don't think the yellow wands were the issue.

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Post Friday, 14th September 2018, 01:09

Re: Bring back Pakellas

It could be. Besides being limited use, evokables are distinguished from spells in that you didn't start with enough to carry you through the middle game, but had to adapt to what you found. You knew exactly what you were getting with a spell start, not so with evokables. Your armor and skill options are also much more flexible with evokables, compared to spells.

But that was the problem. There needs to be less power for evokables compared to spells, but Pakellas felt like he gave you the benefit of spells, without the disadvantages, which was more than most other gods for warriors. So in that sense, removing the big three does help in bringing balance to Pakellas, and removes a lot of the cheap builds. The question, though, is whether there are still enough diversity in evokables in the game to make Pakellas worth while?
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Slime Squisher

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Post Friday, 14th September 2018, 08:36

Re: Bring back Pakellas

Honestly, I think that having a god tied so closely evocables will always be problematic.

Evocables are meant to be limited resources, if you have a god that makes them more powerful and less limited that is likely to cause problems. Any change you make to this items will affect the god too, which makes him a pain in the ass to balance.

I think the way to go is to decouple him from regular evocables a bit more. Just keep device surge as an ability for wands and evocables - but keep them at the same charges, and make him gift his own evocables, that don't spawn on the dungeon (so they can be balanced separately). There should be more things about the god not related to evocables IMO

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Post Friday, 14th September 2018, 21:09

Re: Bring back Pakellas

Keep in mind that when Pakellas existed, there were still rods, which were unlimited evokables, and Pakellas was guaranteed to give you a rod. I suppose you could bring back Pakellas and rods, and make rods Pakellas-exclusive, much like with Nemelex and decks. But rods are basically spells with their own MP bars, and that's not that exciting, which is why they were removed in the first place. Decks at least have a cool element of risk (you don't know exactly what card you'll draw unless you spend piety).

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Post Friday, 14th September 2018, 23:14

Re: Bring back Pakellas

Pereza0 wrote:Evocables are meant to be limited resources, if you have a god that makes them more powerful and less limited that is likely to cause problems.


What if he mostly just made them more powerful?

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Post Saturday, 15th September 2018, 00:13

Re: Bring back Pakellas

They're already powerful, and you don't want to tie a god to making them powerful because then people who don't worship the god would be missing out on a feature of the game.

Pakellas is an interesting concept, but I think the emphasis should be on him being a god of inventions and contraptions, rather than a god of wands. The aspect of Pakellas that initially attracted me was the whole Rube Goldberg factor - the idea that he would reward followers for getting past challenges in elaborate and inventive ways.

I think Pakellas would work well as a traps and devices god. Currently, there's no player traps in the game, so this would be new. Pakellas could allow you to craft mechanical traps using weapons, magic traps using scrolls, and stationary turrets using wands and ranged weapons. Then he could reward you for killing or removing monsters using them. There is similarity with Fedhas, but not enough to be too similar. I'd especially like it for Pakellas to reward people for, as an example, killing monsters by making them fall through a dungeon hole onto open water and drown, but it could be hard to detect these inventive methods.

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Post Saturday, 15th September 2018, 00:52

Re: Bring back Pakellas

EtadanikM wrote:They're already powerful,


Evokables are already a little too powerful.

Regardless, Pakellas granting a passive skill boost to Evocations wouldn't be broken. He could buff wands of flame and random effects too, then maybe a capstone ability to make evocations useage only take half a turn.



Pakellas is an interesting concept, but I think the emphasis should be on him being a god of inventions and contraptions, rather than a god of wands. The aspect of Pakellas that initially attracted me was the whole Rube Goldberg factor - the idea that he would reward followers for getting past challenges in elaborate and inventive ways.

I think Pakellas would work well as a traps and devices god. Currently, there's no player traps in the game, so this would be new. Pakellas could allow you to craft mechanical traps using weapons, magic traps using scrolls, and stationary turrets using wands and ranged weapons. Then he could reward you for killing or removing monsters using them. There is similarity with Fedhas, but not enough to be too similar. I'd especially like it for Pakellas to reward people for, as an example, killing monsters by making them fall through a dungeon hole onto open water and drown, but it could be hard to detect these inventive methods.



The only thing this has in common with previous Pakellas incarnations is the name.

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Post Sunday, 16th September 2018, 01:00

Re: Bring back Pakellas

Pakellas returning would be neat, but he'd need... significant changes. Some of the wands being super strong was only a single issue. Another problem ontop of only being "god of using more wands" was that evocations was already good, and then all his abilities powered up via evocations, and obviously benefited from evokable power increase on evocations too. But that's easily adjusted by shifting his god powers from evo to invo.

Quick Charge would need to go, but Supercharge could just apply to wands instead of wands and rods. Either same effect, or make one wand gain charges with exp. Device Surge, in addition to being invo-powered, could be separated into Wand Surge and Artifact Surge; the latter being a higher piety cost ability that doesn't just increase the elemental evokable's spellpower, but actually does something more impressive, e.g. Lamp of Fire becoming more of a fire-type glaciate. Weaker than the average god nuke ability, but offering more variety. Phial of floods could inflict Engulf on an area for awhile outright instead of relying on the water elementals to do it.

An ability like Artifact Surge would be nice for the factor of Pak's abilities doing something new, instead of just evoking with more spellpower and more often. Raising the cost of Wand Surge and making it function similarly would be interesting, but, it'd probably just be too strong.

A few Pak-exclusive evokables could also be nice. Maybe a "choose one out of selection" type thing, possibly even replacing Supercharge entirely to help distance Pak from mainly being "god of uses more wands".
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 20th September 2018, 02:30

Re: Bring back Pakellas

I feel like something similar to Pakellas, or at least a god centered around evocations that isn't Nemelex, would be neat if we had different, or maybe "more dramatic" wands. If you brought him back nowadays, it would end up like a mage that casts Corrosive Bolt and Paralyze with V. Now, regular mages of course cannot cast Corrosive Bolt or Paralyze, but still, this isn't the most exciting build in the world. Maybe if we had a few more magic devices that did interesting things, or (offensive) power wands, or something.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 20th September 2018, 08:36

Re: Bring back Pakellas

Like, here's the thing with wands (and sacks and boxes), they're just consumable offensive spells. They have spell power and everything. A god based around wands is just going to play like a god based around spells, because that's what it is. That was how Pakellas played, at least for me. You need some other gimmick, like the uncertainty in Nemelex's cards. Until you think of a good gimmick like that, don't bother thinking about how to bring supercharge back.

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Post Thursday, 20th September 2018, 08:53

Re: Bring back Pakellas

duvessa wrote:Like, here's the thing with wands (and sacks and boxes), they're just consumable offensive spells. They have spell power and everything. A god based around wands is just going to play like a god based around spells, because that's what it is. That was how Pakellas played, at least for me. You need some other gimmick, like the uncertainty in Nemelex's cards. Until you think of a good gimmick like that, don't bother thinking about how to bring supercharge back.


I don't see why it is a requirement. Vehumet/Sif Muna give more MP, Okawaru gives more melee/ranged damage, Makhleb gives more HP, Pakellas gives more wand charges. Being able to use "spells" in the form of wands in heavy armour is a nice feature of the god, a bit similar to Vehumet's wizardry or Chei's Str/Int boost though.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 20th September 2018, 09:28

Re: Bring back Pakellas

Evokables also have different effects than spells, so that makes evokable-based playing different enough from spell-based playing imo.

Pakellas could also hate spellcasting like Trog. Pakellas could also buff evokables so that lamps and fans would produce elementals again (which would make fans actually useful).

One idea I've had for a long time is that Pakellas could let you sacrifice an evokable for a bigger effect (spider storm, horde of beasts etc.).
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Post Thursday, 20th September 2018, 23:11

Re: Bring back Pakellas

Side note on the Pakellas discussion: Evocables are a little too powerful right now, should be nerfed slightly. I'll make a separate thread for that.

Regardless, here is a concrete Pakellas proposal.

Pakellas, God of evocations

Appreciates:
Exploration, but not as much as Ashenrazi does.
Training Evocations skill, but not as much as Sif Muna appreciates skill training.
Finding or buying evocable items.

Generally you'll hit Champion sometime during lair, same as most everyone else.

Dislikes: (this is a flavor thing not a game balance thing, so I'll leave it for others to come up with)
You gradually lose piety over time, same as with most gods.


0 stars:
Passive: Upgrades wand of random effects so that when you zap a monster with it, reroll buff effects until you get something harmful.
Passive: Upgrades wand of flame so it produces a bolt of fire ending with a fireball at the target point. Adjust power level downwards so it isn't too strong compared to wands of iceblast.
Passive: Upgrades wand of polymorph so that a success then attempts to confuse the resulting monster, just as if it was zapped by wand of confusion. "Sigmund the Yak is confused by his sudden transformation!"
Passive: You always sense all evocables on the map, including those in shops or monster inventories.

*:
Once per game: Gift one of those three wands listed above. Chosen at random, but with a preference for a type you haven't discovered yet.

**:
Passive +5 to Evocations skill (max 27).

***:
Once per game: Gift one of the other wands, besides digging. Again with a preference for types you haven't discovered yet.

****:
Immunity to Evocations. You can safely catch yourself in AOE and clouds from wands and evocables. You are safe from monster wand effects also, but they generally will no longer target you.

*****:
Activated, costs the same as Finesse: Using a wand or evocable takes half as long as normal (stacks with haste).

******:
Once per game: Gift an elemental evocable you haven't identified yet. If you have already seen them all, gift a sack or box instead.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 20th September 2018, 23:31

Re: Bring back Pakellas

Copying a bunch of other gods' abilities and giving them an evocations flavour is less unique and interesting than the original Pakellas.

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Post Thursday, 20th September 2018, 23:38

Re: Bring back Pakellas

Mahkleb, Oka, and Veh aren't that interesting either, but they are fun to play.

Not every god has to be like Ru or the Wall Jump Council

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Post Thursday, 20th September 2018, 23:54

Re: Bring back Pakellas

I like some of the ideas (buffing the weaker wands) but a god whose only ability is that passive and Hasted Wands does sound a bit dull. I like immunity to blasting yourself with aoe wands but it's not exactly a selling point. I think there should be somewhat more of a focus on the non-wand evocables. I'd fancy an ability that drains yourself to recharge all experience-fueled evokables (e.g. elemental evokes) combined perhaps with other passives or abilities that make them more useful. And perhaps have him gift one out of the old removed evocables.

I do think there's merit to "spellcasting god but it's evokables", but it does need a bit more selling point than just Wands But A Little Better.

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Post Friday, 21st September 2018, 00:15

Re: Bring back Pakellas

Please use piety-on-kills like everyone, having 3 different ways to gain piety is just ridiculous.
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Post Friday, 21st September 2018, 00:26

Re: Bring back Pakellas

Re:My comment on passives to boost the elemental evocables paired with an ability that recharges them for piety and draining; it could look like...

Passive Edition
-Lamp of Fire's first stream is guaranteed to hit the targetted tile, perhaps some direct damage per stream?
-Phial of Floods directly inflicts Engulf on the targetted opponent for awhile
-Fan of Gales summons air elementals
-Lightning Rod deals full damage on the first use

You don't always get these items right away but since the god gifts one, it should be fine. Earlygame you'd use his wand-focused abilities, whether that's Device Surge or a passive evocations boost or Passively Buffs The Bad Wands or all of the above.

(...I had an active version edition, but I don't think it was interesting enough, and mostly added existing spells onto the items like making lightning rod conjure ball lightning)

Instead of his old fiddly mp system, he could just depreciate spellcasting and instead of a flat evocations boost, he could grant increasing levels of MP Powered Wands now that it's a good mutation that doesn't disable wands at 0mp. Without spells, there's extremely few things that will use it, so I don't think the ability steps on toes.

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Post Friday, 21st September 2018, 14:09

Re: Bring back Pakellas

A'ight, I slept on the artifact recharge ability and thought of a way to implement that sounds vastly more interesting. I don't think you're usually supposed to double-post but it seems appropriate in this case? Here's my rehash of Rash's Pakellas. Also of note is that I thought there was multiple levels of mp powered wands, but the wiki only listed one; if there IS only one, well, Pak could get a second level if appropriate.

Of note is the new 5-star piety ability and 6-star god gift. God depreciates spellcasting, but does not outright ban it ala Trog. MP-Powered Wands muts do not go away unless you stop worshipping Pak, at which point you receive a bad version for the duration of penance.

0 stars:
Passive: Upgrades wand of random effects so that when you zap a monster with it, reroll buff effects until you get something harmful.
Passive: Upgrades wand of flame so it produces a bolt of fire ending with a fireball at the target point. Adjust power level downwards so it isn't too strong compared to wands of iceblast.
Passive: Upgrades wand of polymorph so that a success then attempts to confuse the resulting monster, just as if it was zapped by wand of confusion. "Sigmund the Yak is confused by his sudden transformation!"
Passive: You always sense all evocables on the map, including those in shops or monster inventories.

*:
Gain MP-Powered Wands 1.
Once per game: Gift one of those three wands listed above. Chosen at random, but with a preference for a type you haven't discovered yet.

**:
Once per game: Gift one of the other wands, besides digging. Again with a preference for types you haven't discovered yet.

***:
Immunity to Evocations. You can safely catch yourself in AOE and clouds from wands and evocables. You are safe from monster wand effects also, but they generally will no longer target you.

****:
Once per game:Gift an elemental evocable you haven't identified, or sack/box if none.

*****:
Gain MP-Powered Wands 2.
Apotheosis: Enter a short-lasting status to greatly enhance use of devices. Duration increased by Invocation. During this status, Evocations is increased by [Invo/3] and you may evoke inert artifacts at the cost of draining. Elemental evoker's performance is enhanced. Wands cast at reduced speed.

Very high piety cost.

******:
Supercharge:One time use. Upgrades a wand to recharge slowly with experience like the elemental evokables. This wand will no longer disintegrate at 0 charges. Wands with lower max charges recharge slower.
Once per game:Gifts a piece of artifact equipment guaranteed to possess an evokable ability. (It might be more stably relevant if weapons aren't an option, but Pak characters are definitely using one, so it could be exciting?)


Alternatively, take out mp-powered wands and put Device Surge back in at rank 2 as an active ability to boost next evocable's spellpower, effect based on invocations. Two active abilities scaling off invocations provides a more "standard" experience, but making the evocational spellpower boost flat is just smoother to play which would be pleasant, and preserves relevance of MP stat... sort of.

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Post Friday, 21st September 2018, 20:11

Re: Bring back Pakellas

I think the idea of training Invocations to improve evocations is a mess. And species with good invocations apts will benefit more from Pakellas?

After discussing with Kramin on IRC, I think Immunity to Evocations should be a zero star ability. That's the part of the game where monster wand use is relevant. And it's simpler for characters not to lose passive abilities with piety fluctuation.

I also think it is fine if Pak's abilities are relatively front-loaded. They still inherently scale with Evocations trainings and actual wands found, which only comes as you proceed through the game.

As for the Evocations god discouraging spellcasting: The problem is that Evocations already gives a variety of strong spell-like effects to heavy armor characters that totally ignore casting. A god which rewards those characters but not your standard medium armor hybrid is just adding insult to injury.


Some other thoughts:

- If there is a passive Evocations boost, it could be equal to (piety stars)+1, rather than a flat number.

- Passive Evocations boost is super boring, but that's not necessarily bad.

- Pakellas could be just the god of wands, only improving/effecting wand use.

- An activated ability, with a piety cost, that either last a few turns or gets used once per zap. Modifies the AOE of your hex wands. So your wand of paralysis acts as bolt of paralysis or ball of paralysis, and still only costs one charge.

- An activated ability, with a small piety cost. Choose a target, and you zap four wands at it with just one action: Flame, Acid, Iceblast, Disintegration. This costs a charge from each wand.

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