Mummy is nerfed again ?


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Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 2

Joined: Friday, 10th August 2018, 15:27

Post Friday, 10th August 2018, 19:58

Mummy is nerfed again ?

Hello, please forgive me if it is not the right place or the right way to do this :) And please forgive my approximative english, it is not my langage.
I usually do not like to complain, and I'm happy to let the devs do what they want. Thank you very much, by the way, for the countless hours of pleasure :)

I played DCSS since ... forever, something like 10 or more years I think. I remember the 0.5 and how much I died triying the deep dwarf artificer. Was already an old player then. The game then was very different, but I allways find it better as it progressed.
But since 0.21 I find it much harder, and less and less fun, as I like to play a mummy necro, and unless I get some very good stuff soon in the game (before end of orc mine or swamp) I cannot seem to be able to progress any further. And version after version, it is more and more difficult. Control undead is gone, now Borgnjor's Vile Clutch (that was a poor replacement) has left the necro book... I love playing this slow progressing "quasi-lich", but wait, now it is just a very bad wizard with full neg resistance but that cant quaff potions... And I can't seem to find most good death spells (as the one to make abominations, did not find it in hundred of games), are they also gone ?
Even with efficient god's help, how the hell can I pass hlv undead levels ? Or undead filled Ziggurat levels ??
...
Ok, it looks like a whine.
... It is a whine.

Do you plan to destroy my favorite character any more ? ( :? )

While I am here : why "Uppercase letters only, please" ??? It worked nicely for years, I cannot think of a any reason to change this ? It is useless and annoying.

(again, I'm not trying to be rude or anything, sorry if I do not explain myself correctly. I just played dozens and dozens of games (it is faster, now... I die fast :/ ) and feel more and more frustrated)
(for useless answers: yes I know, I can play another character, yes I can stick to 0.20 or lesser), yes i'm just a bad player and it is easy, yes I can stop playing DCSS and get a life, but it is not the point ;))

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 10th August 2018, 21:04

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

The spell that made abominations (I think that's the one you were talking about) was called Twisted Resurrection, and was removed in 0.16, it was actually pretty lame, and was purged as part of the general purge of undead being permanant allies (outside of Yred).

For similar types of spells see Simulacrum, Death channel and Infestation, all of which are better than Twisted Resurrection was even at it's peak.

Vile clutch was actually removed from the starting book, because it was just too good, decent irresistible damage and being able to pin critters and prevent them from following you makes for an actually really darn useful spell. Control Undead also really good, simply because converting creatures to allies is really really good, it was decided that confining that to the single wand and limited uses was probably better (and you can use the wand to control undead as well as non-undead) It's too bad that present starting necromancers are pretty much stuck with bashing things to death if they're immune to negative energy,

Oh, and the uppercase letters were because people were accidentally hitting the lowercased versions on level up when they didn't mean to (d and i are pretty common commands, and if you're going fast enough you may select the wrong stat before you mean to.)
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 10th August 2018, 21:25

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

The idea that Vile Clutch is worse than Control Undead is mind-boggling to me. Vile Clutch is one of the best spells in the game right now.

Also, I just want to make sure this is clear. Mummies are arguably the worst species in the game. They have terrible aptitudes at almost everything, they're weak to fire, a damage type that's pretty common, they can't drink potions, which are one of the best tactical resources in the game, and all they get in return is... no food clock? Poison resistance? It's... not good. But that's intentional. I'm not saying you shouldn't play mummies, but don't expect them to get better - they're not intended to be as good as minotaurs but different, they're intended to be a challenge. They are hard mode. I'm not saying that to knock you down a peg or to convince you to play something else. But it's like playing through Dark Souls with a broken sword or whatever. It's totally doable, but not really meant to be your first thing.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 10th August 2018, 22:48

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

Stonar wrote:The idea that Vile Clutch is worse than Control Undead is mind-boggling to me.
I think Control Undead is much better than BVC. Enslavement that only works on undead is still Enslavement. Throwing allied player ghosts at enemies is pretty good, especially now that you can take them across stairs.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 01:43

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

Yes, indeed, it seems the Book of Necromancy has absolutely nothing now that could help you kill dangerous undead. Pain, Animate Skeleton, Vampiric Draining, Regeneration, Animate Dead. Nothing that works on early hostile undead (wight packs, wraiths). You're pretty much forced to get strong melee fairly early or use a crutch god to kill things for you.

I think that Dispel Undead should go in the Book of Necromancy to remedy this.
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PseudoLoneWolf

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 04:01

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

Well don't get me wrong, it is annoying, but animated skeletons and zombies are definitely capable of killing dangerous undead.

Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 2

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 08:53

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

Thank you all :) I understand that necro mummy is not intended to be an easy way ;)
If you allow me to comment a bit :

duvessa wrote:Well don't get me wrong, it is annoying, but animated skeletons and zombies are definitely capable of killing dangerous undead. .

You need corpses for these spells, and their lifespan (mmm oh well, deathspan ?) is quite short. They also are quite weak against strong opponent. And totally useless in undead filled levels.

Stonar wrote:The idea that Vile Clutch is worse than Control Undead is mind-boggling to me. Vile Clutch is one of the best spells in the game right now.

It is a powerfull spell, but earth magic is quite useless to undeads (fire or air are far better for direct and zone damage). I usually bumped earth only for this spell, so the price in leveling is heavy, even if it is a good spell.

Stonar wrote:Also, I just want to make sure this is clear. Mummies are arguably the worst species in the game. They have terrible aptitudes at almost everything, they're weak to fire, a damage type that's pretty common, they can't drink potions, which are one of the best tactical resources in the game, and all they get in return is... no food clock? Poison resistance? It's... not good. But that's intentional. I'm not saying you shouldn't play mummies, but don't expect them to get better - they're not intended to be as good as minotaurs but different, they're intended to be a challenge. They are hard mode.

I'm quite aware and ok with that, except that it was hard mode, now it is insane/impossible. I just did not find a way to stay alive in deeper levels. If it is made to be unplayable, we may as well just remove it :/

Also, it is obvious that devs can watch online games, it may be the reasons of the nerf ? Maybe other players have found a better way to play mummy necro ? Please share :) Because for now, I find it just too hard.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 09:01

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

duvessa wrote:Well don't get me wrong, it is annoying, but animated skeletons and zombies are definitely capable of killing dangerous undead.

No. It's not likely you're going to have enough strong zombies right at the time you need them to kill a wight pack.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 09:25

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

Grisemine wrote: Maybe other players have found a better way to play mummy necro ? Please share :) Because for now, I find it just too hard.


My method in the early game against rN+ enemies is to train dodging and fighting after I can cast vampiric draining, and use a big (untrained) weapon and skeletons against them. In my experience there are no dangerous undead/demons in the early game, tough it can be quite annoying to run a lot if a lot of wight pack generates. (And how I hate parking imps and that blinking udead...)

My method in the late game is to join kiku, and use corpse delivery + animate dead (or later simulacrum). In my experience this easily kills everything in a 3 rune game. I also pain brand a weapon, train it to min delay and kill everything not resistant with it, so I only need to get corpses when something is resistant (or very dangerous) and I happen not to have corpses anyway. Oh, and kiku seems to always gift dispell undead.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 10:06

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

To reliably win using a background that is weak - which Necromancer apparently is now - you need to quickly transition to a character that is not weak. There are two kinds of characters that are not weak: melee brutes, and blaster mages (conjurations mages with earth, ice, or fire). Let's say you want to aim for brute. So, first you want to be able to cast your starting spells. While doing this you should put all your stat points into str, not int. Then you want to find a nice branded weapon. It's good to train Fighting while you are waiting for a weapon. You want to worship a god that supports your melee, such as Okawaru or Gozag, or a crutch god like Nemelex. Once you find a good enough weapon you can start training the weapon. You want around 10 fighting skill at first and your weapon at minimum delay. At this point you will be able to kill most things in melee. You want to wear a medium armor such as ring mail or scale mail, ideally armor that was already branded and enchanted. You can resume training necromancy so you can cast animate dead in medium armor, to support your melee. Later on you can switch to heavier armor.

Alternatively, you can try to be a blaster mage. Put your points into int if you are aiming for this. If you find an early book that can kill the things necromancy can't, then your problem is solved. Otherwise you want to worship Vehumet so you can get some basic spells to kill things. Being a blaster mage is largely incompatible with being a necromancer, because the undead get in the way of your spells, so you don't want to train necromancy too high.

As a third alternative, you can worship Kiku and try to be a more dedicated necromancer - for a while. Your plan will be to rely on Corpse Delivery followed by Animate Dead to kill dangerous things. At some point, though, you should still transition to blaster mage or brute. Probably brute. There are diminishing returns to high level necromancy - it's better to be able to kill most things with your weapon, and just use corpse delivery and animate dead to support that. Of course, Simulacrum is a nice late game spell with Kiku.
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bel

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 16:56

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

The thread is about Mummy, not necromancer.

It's not clear why this thread is in GDD. It's a complaint rather than a proposal.

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 17:04

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

Berder wrote:There are two kinds of characters that are not weak: melee brutes, and blaster mages (conjurations mages with earth, ice, or fire).

I disagree with almost everything you said. The above sentence is the most painful. You are pigeonholing Crawl characters into weird categories, and those categories make no sense. A necromancer who wears medium armor and wields a weapon is a "melee brute"? WTF? It's just a standard necromancer.

Berder wrote: There are diminishing returns to high level necromancy

This again makes zero sense. Vile clutch, simulacrum, death channel, haunt, Infestation are extremely good spells. Plus revivification & DDoor (but not for mummies.)
Last edited by Magipi on Saturday, 11th August 2018, 17:09, edited 1 time in total.

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duvessa, nago

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 17:08

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

double, sorry

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 17:36

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

bel wrote:The thread is about Mummy, not necromancer.

Despite the title, the OP seems to be talking about MuNe.

Magipi wrote:A necromancer who wears medium armor and wields a weapon is a "melee brute"? WTF? It's just a standard necromancer.

I recommended using medium armor only for a while. After that I said to use heavier armor.

A character that pumps STR and wears heavy armor and is strong enough to kill everything in melee is a brute, even if they are casting a little necromancy on the side. They could win without the necromancy, they couldn't win without the brute.

Magipi wrote:Vile clutch, simulacrum, death channel, haunt, Infestation are extremely good spells. Plus revivification & DDoor (but not for mummies.)

You can wear plate and eventually cast vile clutch, simulacrum, dchan if you want. The level 8 spells are optionals for extended. You can also cast the level 8 spells in plate in extended if you really want to. Rushing straight to them in robes results in weakness.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 18:01

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

Try a mummy berserker, don't cast any spells, it's easier.

Dis Charger

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 18:24

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

svendre wrote:Try a mummy berserker, don't cast any spells, it's easier.

I guess this is a joke (MuBe sucks), but it is still better advice than Berder's.

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duvessa, nago

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 18:51

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

MuBe is truly not bad, since Trog's Hand will keep you from getting confused and grant you healing that is difficult to get on a mummy otherwise. Additionally a Berserker's narrow focus on combat skills without training any spells or invo, suits a mummy's low aptitudes. I have won a MuBe. All my advice is good advice.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 11th August 2018, 23:30

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

Magipi wrote:
svendre wrote:Try a mummy berserker, don't cast any spells, it's easier.

I guess this is a joke (MuBe sucks), but it is still better advice than Berder's.


It was a joke, but only because it has a lot of truth to it when it should be ridiculous. For an extended game, a mummy berserker is a decent brute for a few reasons: torment immunity, rPois and rN+++ help some, fighting apt is OK. Since the aptitudes are bad overall, it's easier to pull off a more simple design. Trog helps with MR and regen. Trog summons are a great crutch. Most of all, you're gifted weapons, and you can easily swap between a vampiric and antimagic weapon. A vampiric axe while wearing heavy armour will carry you most of the way through the game, and the antimagic weapon will take care of most of the rest of extended. In particular, antimagic will deal with dispel undead, which becomes one of the worst threats for a mummy in extended.

As for Berder's advice, it looks solid in my opinion. Build a mummy necromancer that isn't flimsy. Melee until you lose health, then use vampiric draining. Don't go all out necromancy because it just has diminishing returns later for a mummy, especially because you need the XP to go into defenses and melee.

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Berder

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Post Sunday, 12th August 2018, 01:55

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

I haven't played a MuNe, but here are the last few necromancers I have played. OP might want to use them as a model for his own attempts.
VpNe - brute style.
SpNe - blaster style
GrNe - brute with kiku style
GhNe - brute style

You can scroll down to the "Skill" table of the morgues (near the bottom of the morgue, not the list of skills near the top) to see when I trained different skills, and to the "Action" table to see what I was doing at each XL. You can see that I mostly followed the advice given in this thread. In recent versions, I have won 4 of 6 necromancers I played.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 21st August 2018, 22:52

Re: Mummy is nerfed again ?

Berder wrote:As a third alternative, you can worship Kiku and try to be a more dedicated necromancer - for a while. Your plan will be to rely on Corpse Delivery followed by Animate Dead to kill dangerous things. At some point, though, you should still transition to blaster mage or brute. Probably brute. There are diminishing returns to high level necromancy - it's better to be able to kill most things with your weapon, and just use corpse delivery and animate dead to support that. Of course, Simulacrum is a nice late game spell with Kiku.

You can actually clear the whole game with infest + dchan without much difficulty, and you can use infest with help from Kiku at a fairly low XL. It's like a better version of Summoning.
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