New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 9th August 2018, 11:04

New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

+3 buckler which gives 1 MP every time it blocks an attack.

Its primary purpose is to provide a choice between extra defense (from regular shield) and extra MP or between using 2h weapon and extra MP. If you are lucky to find it and Warlock's Mirror, then you have even more tough choice.

Keeping popcorn alive for extra MP gives disadvantage of blocking retreat path and also decreasing effective SH value vs actually dangerous monsters due to extra penalty for consecutive blocks so should not be a problem IMHO.
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Post Thursday, 9th August 2018, 17:17

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

I think 1 MP is too little to make a difference. It should give 3 or more.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 9th August 2018, 18:03

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

duvessa wrote:I think 1 MP is too little to make a difference. It should give 3 or more.


Well, initially I wanted to suggest 1 MP for first block, 2 MPs for second one and so on but then decided that it might be too strong this way. Unlike Warlock's Mirror it works vs most monsters so is more useful in most branches.
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Post Thursday, 9th August 2018, 18:08

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
duvessa wrote:I think 1 MP is too little to make a difference. It should give 3 or more.


Well, initially I wanted to suggest 1 MP for first block, 2 MPs for second one and so on but then decided that it might be too strong this way. Unlike Warlock's Mirror it works vs most monsters so is more useful in most branches.

Maybe it can go up with shield skill, something vaguely like 1d(shield skill/5)
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Post Thursday, 9th August 2018, 23:05

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

The MP could scale with the base damage of the monster, which would also reduce the incentive to drag popcorn around.

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Post Friday, 10th August 2018, 05:38

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

Interesting idea.

For a "mage"-type character, a +3 buckler with MP restoration would be better than a typical shield for a fairly long time. I don't think it would imply much of a meaningful choice in that time period. But many unrandarts are like this, so it's not really a big issue.

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Post Friday, 10th August 2018, 06:01

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

bel wrote:Interesting idea.

For a "mage"-type character, a +3 buckler with MP restoration would be better than a typical shield for a fairly long time. I don't think it would imply much of a meaningful choice in that time period. But many unrandarts are like this, so it's not really a big issue.


I think this buckler might be good to some different characters also, for instance, HaWr who use Blink spell to make distance or to encourage melee characters who found Vampiric Draining to train Necromancy earlier.
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Post Monday, 13th August 2018, 06:44

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

Shouldn't it be a large or regular shield? If you want the tasty MP you need to take a huge hit on spell success.

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Post Monday, 13th August 2018, 07:00

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

le_nerd wrote:Shouldn't it be a large or regular shield? If you want the tasty MP you need to take a huge hit on spell success.


That would mean it is useless in early/middle game and OP late game IMHO.
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Post Monday, 13th August 2018, 07:36

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

This turned out to be very easy to code a prototype of: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/838

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Post Sunday, 17th March 2019, 22:42

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

I closed the PR as I was unable to think up good lore. "Alchemist's Stone" is no good as that references a real-world legend, which crawl is trying to move away from.

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Post Monday, 18th March 2019, 05:23

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

chequers wrote:I closed the PR as I was unable to think up good lore. "Alchemist's Stone" is no good as that references a real-world legend, which crawl is trying to move away from.
Good lore? It could be as simple as "buckler of magic" previously used by a famous magician.
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Post Monday, 18th March 2019, 15:39

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

it'd fit thematically as a Maxwell item

...which I guess are also a real-world reference so
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Post Monday, 18th March 2019, 15:48

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

chequers
I took a look at the latest commit of the PR and I am not sure it is a good idea to combine +MP on block with spirit shield, that is too close to HP on block. Let players decide if they want to combine this item with spirit shield or not.

Edit. Also I am not sure why devs believe it will be a weak item for pure casters. I designed the item for pure casters mostly, it is so great when you can continue casting your spells while being attacked. Just increase MP bonus if needed... Moving the item to large shield makes it unusable for 99% pure casters and makes it inaccessible to Sp/Ha/Ko who are more comfortable with casting than Tr.
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Post Monday, 18th March 2019, 18:25

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

Buckler of the Magic Button

*You block. Click goes the button! You gain 2 MP.*

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*You block. You gain 2 MP*.
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Post Thursday, 21st March 2019, 17:42

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

So I'm a bit biased here as I tend to play characters who like larger shields, so the guardian spirit/large shield version would be more useful to me, but I think either one is an interesting item. You could even add both as separate unrands, although it's probably more elegant to only have one shield using the mechanic. I would definitely consider using a +0 large shield with guardian and + mana on block over a regular +8 large shield, and probably even over a +8 large shield with a normal ego - protection, reflection, etc. I think it'd be weaker than most unrand shields, though. Or even the shield of resistance, which is only a normal shield, but with 3 resistances.

Getting around 3 hp per block is pretty significant, it would go a long way towards improving your 'sustain' which is very important in extended. It would be somewhat weaker in the early/3rune game, though.

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Post Thursday, 21st March 2019, 22:08

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

Its seems quite difficult to find a caster that would use this as a large shield. The only races I could see using it are large races like ogre's and trolls that also want to cast spells in a 3 rune game.
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Post Thursday, 21st March 2019, 23:43

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

acoolguy wrote:Its seems quite difficult to find a caster that would use this as a large shield. The only races I could see using it are large races like ogre's and trolls that also want to cast spells in a 3 rune game.

What about the Naga? Do they get the size bonus?
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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 05:22

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

Yes, Naga and Centaur get the shields bonus.

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 08:09

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

acoolguy wrote:Its seems quite difficult to find a caster that would use this as a large shield. The only races I could see using it are large races like ogre's and trolls that also want to cast spells in a 3 rune game.


Exactly. I suspect tasonir above wants to use the item on UC Tr of Chei in 15 runes game but this item should be also easily used by primary spell casters like DEWz of Vehumet and TeAE of Sif Muna in Lair, any large shield (no matter the bonus) are unusable in 3 rune game unless the characters ignore middle level spells completely.
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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 19:07

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

Unrandart bucklers bug me. You don't get a million unrandart drops, and so by the time you might find a shield one, it's a pretty big sacrifice to not use a two hander or a medium or large shield and the XP requirements for medium aren't all that bad. Warlock's mirror is an example. I wish it were at least a medium shield. The same for any new unrandart shields. Large shields carry the same problem, but from the other perspective that they take too much training for a lot of games.

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 19:51

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

svendre wrote:Unrandart bucklers bug me. You don't get a million unrandart drops, and so by the time you might find a shield one, it's a pretty big sacrifice to not use a two hander or a medium or large shield and the XP requirements for medium aren't all that bad. Warlock's mirror is an example. I wish it were at least a medium shield. The same for any new unrandart shields. Large shields carry the same problem, but from the other perspective that they take too much training for a lot of games.

This probably speaks a lot to your playstyle. Bucklers are a great deal for blasters, though certainly not the only reasonable choice. And large shields are fantastic on basically any non-small melee character.
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Post Yesterday, 06:49

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

byrel wrote:
svendre wrote:Unrandart bucklers bug me. You don't get a million unrandart drops, and so by the time you might find a shield one, it's a pretty big sacrifice to not use a two hander or a medium or large shield and the XP requirements for medium aren't all that bad. Warlock's mirror is an example. I wish it were at least a medium shield. The same for any new unrandart shields. Large shields carry the same problem, but from the other perspective that they take too much training for a lot of games.

This probably speaks a lot to your playstyle. Bucklers are a great deal for blasters, though certainly not the only reasonable choice. And large shields are fantastic on basically any non-small melee character.


Well, it's not like I'm saying I wouldn't use a buckler on a low level blaster character if I found one early enough. I don't know about you, but I don't find a lot of unrandarts early on when training a skill past level 4 is that big of an issue. My comments weren't just about bucklers in general, but these rare bucklers. The vast majority of games where I find the warlock's mirror, I've already found a larger (branded) or artefact shield already, and am killing stuff which gives enough xp that it isn't a big thing to have enough skill to remove the penalty.

Large shields are fantastic on pure melee characters, sure, but I don't think pure melee characters are necessarily the greatest. I feel like they can do a pretty good job of hampering hybrids that want to do some casting. You may be right in your original comment that it speaks to my playstyle some though, I do tend to build rounded characters and go for adding capabilities for the cheapest cost in XP and stats. I also don't do a lot of 3 rune games.

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Post Yesterday, 07:05

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

Svendre
Primary target for the item is pure spellcasters. Also I would not call hybrids characters who use large shield because their only spells in 3 rune game are Animate skeleton and Blink because large shhield stops higher level spells. Hybrids must kill things with spells and it is almost impossible to kill with level 1-4 spells (late game monsters have too high HP, early game large shield stops spellcasting), late game you would need at least fireball, shadow creatures or alike.
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Post Today, 13:43

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

Unless you're a sp, almost all fighters don't wear bucklers. Magic users only use bucklers, but that's not what they prefer. It would be difficult for them to wear a large shield. But, They will try to use shields.
How about making it an item for magic users? Well, let's give the bucklers their own options, like a scarf.
For example...
1. Permanent Iskenderun's Battlesphere
2. Permanent Leda's Liquefaction(user not slowing down)
3. All magic school boost + 2
4. Spell casting boost + 3
5. Immunity to MP Absorption
6. When you did Miscast, you lost only half of your mp and you gain only half of your contam
These things?
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Today, 14:01

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

I find whether my mages use bucklers or shields to be largely dependent on the game. I tend to use med. shields when I am not going for high level spells (7+) in a three rune game.

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Post Today, 18:51

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

My mages tend to always use mediums shields in a 3 rune game, and it doesn't stop them from learning eg Dragon's Call if they want to. They also tend to wear +2 robes of Archmagi, maybe that's why it's possible. Not certain whether it is optimal...

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Post 35 minutes ago

Re: New unrandart: Alchemist's Stone

It is intentional choice between extra attack (MP on block) and extra defence (using regular shield instead of buckler). Warlock's mirror provides similar choice trading physical defence for magical one. It is not an item which is used by every character no matter what.
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