FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 168

Joined: Thursday, 6th November 2014, 17:19

Location: Canada

Post Thursday, 12th July 2018, 04:42

FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

Please keep in mind:
- My experience in the last few years is mostly starting as a caster; and
- I've written this post so that it could also be instructive to greener crawlers also :mrgreen:

I've started about a hundred FoAKs with a spear (since I love Polearms and Conjure Flame), and more than half of my attempts have ended very quickly while still in the Abyss looking for as many items as possible before even using the Lugonu ability: Depart the Abyss.
The furthest I've made it is Depths:5, and I got some great advice from better crawlers for that (https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25558).
Another promising FoAK unexpectedly committed suicide (https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=330341#p330341) ...or was it secondary murder on my part?!? :oops: )

So my "Lessons Learned" mostly for pre-Lair are ( but I might still be wrong ):
- Don't be too aggressive in the Abyss trying to get "one last item"; leave the Abyss before a one-shot kill is possible. (I've learned a lot about Abyss monsters that way! lol)
- Concentrate skills training on: +Figthing, *Polearms, and +Invocation with just Level 1 for Stealth (since it seems good-enough not to wake up anything pre-Lair on the edge of LOS).
- Even if a Book is found before Lair, it's unlikely to help much even for Lair unless it's Animate Skeleton or Conjure Flame; anything else requires too much skill investment or won't be as helpful as reaching minDelay.
- Use branded Short Swords with no skill investment if that brand will help against a specific monster. Venom brand seems very useful by running away from same speed monsters.
- Don't use Shaft ability unless you've visited at least 2 levels down since you could get shafted down 3 levels! That being said, if easily doable, peek down up to 3 levels below by moving just a handful of spaces from the going backup staircase.
- Don't try to kill Crazy Yiuf unless you've visited at least 2 levels down.
- If your polearm is not branded, Crazy Yiuf's Quaterstaff of Choas is a great per-lair secondary weapon but awful for Lair. (I have mixed experience with using it in Orc)
- If no rPois once Lair entrance is found, try down to D:12 and even Orcish Mines..but treat D:12-14 as if it was a branch end since you don't want to Shaft into an unexplored D:15
- Don't over invest in Invocation; the goal is to get "Enter the Abyss" by Lair:3 (since you might try to shaft yourself and end up in L:6).
- Corruption is not to be used below 75% HP!

What I am still wondering about:
- In general, is getting a spear or trident to minDelay the highest priority? ...or is getting the Distortion brand on it more important (using Lugonu's last Ability)?
- Since I'm trying to get a FoAK into a solid caster (preferably Earth) for the late game ...maybe even for 15-runes, I've always selected INT at every 3rd level since STR and DEX seem good enough for pre-Lair.
- Is Level 1 for Throwing or Slings worth the puny investment like it is for Stealth ...or is it mostly useless like it is for Short Swords?

I also welcome any other suggestion/advice ...especially if any of the above is far from *optimal*.
Cheers :D

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 311

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Thursday, 12th July 2018, 06:18

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

This is a lot of thoughts for one post, but I'll try to lend some insights:


- Don't be too aggressive in the Abyss trying to get "one last item"; leave the Abyss before a one-shot kill is possible. (I've learned a lot about Abyss monsters that way! lol)
>>TRUE

- Concentrate skills training on: +Figthing, *Polearms, and +Invocation with just Level 1 for Stealth (since it seems good-enough not to wake up anything pre-Lair on the edge of LOS).
>>Train more stealth for this combination and you'll be able to scum more items out of the abyss for longer and more safely.

- Even if a Book is found before Lair, it's unlikely to help much even for Lair unless it's Animate Skeleton or Conjure Flame; anything else requires too much skill investment or won't be as helpful as reaching minDelay.
>>NOT TRUE - adapt your build to what items you find. If you get some balling +INT items, a wizardry ring and a staff (for example), don't automatically ignore all spells that come your way just because. Generally low level spells are the most useful for early on, naturally. Vampiric drain for example, is only level 3 and can be quite helpful.

- Use branded Short Swords with no skill investment if that brand will help against a specific monster. Venom brand seems very useful by running away from same speed monsters.
>>TRUE, venom short blades are very good early on with little or no skill investment, but, don't only use them. Also U\use other weapons and brands situationally where they have advantages. It helps to have a good feel for how well which monsters will evade. You can also use combinations of brands, such as venom dagger, then switch to draining or protection while the venom kicks in. Use electric for fast damage on things that don't resist it.

- Don't use Shaft ability unless you've visited at least 2 levels down since you could get shafted down 3 levels! That being said, if easily doable, peek down up to 3 levels below by moving just a handful of spaces from the going backup staircase.
>>TRUE. Unless you're fairly experienced, I wouldn't recommend shafting much unless it's an emergency. You can easily land into a situation just as bad or worse than the one you're trying to get away from.

- Don't try to kill Crazy Yiuf unless you've visited at least 2 levels down.
>>FALSE. Quaff unknown potions before opening the door until you find a satisfactory set of buffs or buff. This can accelerate killing him while reducing the number of items you need to ID for a reduced cost of just pure random quaffing.

- If your polearm is not branded, Crazy Yiuf's Quaterstaff of Choas is a great per-lair secondary weapon but awful for Lair. (I have mixed experience with using it in Orc)
>>Until you use a shield and early on, quarterstaffs are strong weapons for low skill. Chaos is a mixed bag. It can help you kill something that would be hard for you to kill, or get you killed. It's a gamble, but it can pay off.

- If no rPois once Lair entrance is found, try down to D:12 and even Orcish Mines..but treat D:12-14 as if it was a branch end since you don't want to Shaft into an unexplored D:15
>>I wouldn't worry myself too badly about rPois for most of the game. It's an inconvenience for the most part because you can rest it off, the exceptions are packs of bees and perhaps spider branch. You should decide where to go based on more factors than just this (gear, spells, skills, stats, race, god, resists...)

- Don't over invest in Invocation; the goal is to get "Enter the Abyss" by Lair:3 (since you might try to shaft yourself and end up in L:6).
>>It's a matter of preference. I tend to wait to bring Invocations up until mid or late game, but see above - it's good to be flexible based on what you need.

What I am still wondering about:
- In general, is getting a spear or trident to minDelay the highest priority? ...or is getting the Distortion brand on it more important (using Lugonu's last Ability)?
>>I find that defenses are more important overall than stuff like getting minDelay as soon as possible. Ask yourself, how many times might you die to a situation where multiple monsters are attacking you versus a 1 versus 1 fight? How many times does your armour matter in a turn when 4 things are hitting you versus your polearm hitting one of them slightly more quickly? The name of the game should be, live to fight another day.

- Since I'm trying to get a FoAK into a solid caster (preferably Earth) for the late game ...maybe even for 15-runes, I've always selected INT at every 3rd level since STR and DEX seem good enough for pre-Lair.
>> For a smoother game, try bringing STR up first, wear heavier armour, invest more into armour skill. Later in the game, bring spellcasting ability up beyond low level capabilities if you find the right items to get STR and INT both up decently high. You might find you barely even need spellcasting.

- Is Level 1 for Throwing or Slings worth the puny investment like it is for Stealth ...or is it mostly useless like it is for Short Swords?
>> There is a more scientific mathematical answer, I'm sure, but I'll simplify how I do things: If I use the skill a fair amount, even if it's early on, I don't stress too much about bringing the skill up to about level 3. Past that, I put more thought into investing the experience further.

Good luck!

For this message the author svendre has received thanks: 2
PseudoLoneWolf, RoGGa

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4011

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Thursday, 12th July 2018, 06:53

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

more than half of my attempts have ended very quickly while still in the Abyss looking for as many items as possible before even using the Lugonu ability: Depart the Abyss


That's like start scumming IMHO.
If you want to become a good player, always analyze deaths and learn from mistakes, for example, I always exit Abyss on turn 1.

When playing FoAK I ignore spells until middle game, walls in Lair can be digged so winning 1 vs 1 fights is more important than Conjure Flame or anything else and you will use a shield as soon as you find it.
I don't use Depart for Abyss until much later than Lair as Banish is safer and cheaper and even Abyss 1 can kill Fo if you are unlucky because of lack of teleportation.
I tend to ignore Stealth as FoAK because Lugonu encourages wearing heavy armour (you are melee with blink, instakill and group control) and Fo has good Armour aptitude.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

For this message the author VeryAngryFelid has received thanks:
RoGGa
User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 168

Joined: Thursday, 6th November 2014, 17:19

Location: Canada

Post Thursday, 12th July 2018, 09:56

CiP: FoAK @lv12, found Lair, no books yet

Thank you for both of your comments; they are very helpful.

Here's a concrete example that I'm currently experiencing (char dump is at the bottom):
I've invested in INT on all 3 offers (even though I have no book yet) since STR 17 & DEX 10 seem more than fine from my long experience as a caster.
The reason for that is: I quite enjoyed my 1st 15-rune win when I followed the incredible GrEE guide on the Wiki.
Previously, I won 5 times in the last year with various combos and all of them were 4-runes including Slime...plus all of them ended up as hybrid casters but never using level 8-9 spells.
Ideally, I'd like to be able to cast upper-tier Earth spells by the end of the late game in order to do the extended game.
Is my hope of casting Shatter in the early extended game unrealistic?

So now for the concrete scenario I'm in:
- My spear is close to mindelay and I'm also close to getting Corrupt Your Weapon.
- I have loaded in inventory anything valuable for the char dump.
- Since I have no rPois yet and Lair entrance is on D:10, I'm now planning on doing D:10&11 (while peeking into D:12 and possibly D:13 if the opportunity is there).
If I find the Mines, then do Orc:1 and peek down the 3 staircases.
If not, then do D:12 while hoping to peek down to D:14.

If I don't have rPois by then, I plan to use my Scroll of Mapping on Orc:2 hoping to have a layout where at 4 shops are not grouped together. If that's the case, then slowly divide-and-conquer by taking them down one-on-one sitting in a killhole.

As for branding Distortion, I am planning on converting the plain +3 Spear and using it at first as a secondary weapon in conjunction with Banish.
And if I get below 50% hp, use "Gate yourself to the Abyss" to recharge to full HP.

As for skills training, that's where I have little clue since I've never been this far without a book (...and yet I have a ring of Wiz+! lol )
My guess is: plan for Lair; so *Dodging, *Stealth, and +Evo.

And lastly, the following are in a shop and I have $640:
+4 arbalest of Freezing for $450
+7 great mace "Underhunter" {distort, rN+} for $790
I'm thinking of getting the arbalest hoping to slow down Spiny Frogs and Mambas (which are 50% of the YASD for FoAKs that made it to the Lair).

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.22-a0-614-g34fbaa0 (tiles) character file.

FoAK the Envoy of Void (Formicid Abyssal Knight)   Turns: 14471, Time: 01:48:13

Health: 99/99      AC: 10    Str: 17    XL:     12   Next: 0%
Magic:  21/21      EV: 15    Int: 17    God:    Lugonu [*****.]
Gold:   640        SH:  4    Dex: 10    Spells: 11/11 levels left

rFire    + + .     SeeInvis +   w - +0 blowgun
rCold    + . .     Gourm    .   (no shield)
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   K - +2 robe {rC+ rF+}
rPois    .         Spirit   .   (helmet unavailable)
rElec    .         Reflect  .   J - +1 cloak
rCorr    .         Harm     .   (no gloves)
MR       +....                  g - +1 pair of boots
Stlth    ++........             (no amulet)
HPRegen  0.26/turn              x - +4 ring of evasion
MPRegen  0.17/turn              X - ring of protection from fire

@: no status effects
A: permanent stasis, dig shafts and tunnels, four strong arms, antennae 3,
talons 1, large bone plates 1, slimy green scales 1
a: Dig, Shaft Self, Depart the Abyss, Bend Space, Banish, Corrupt, Enter the
Abyss, Renounce Religion

You are on level 10 of the Dungeon.
You worship Lugonu.
Lugonu is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 12 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have also visited: Sewer.

You have collected 640 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +3 hunting sling of freezing
 b - a +4 spear of piercing
 d - a +0 dagger of venom
 i - a +0 trident of piercing
 o - a +0 war axe of pain
 r - a +2 halberd
 w - a +0 blowgun (weapon)
 y - a +1 whip of electrocution
 F - a +2 hand axe
 N - a +3 spear
Missiles
 u - 37 bolts
 B - 86 sling bullets
 C - 8 curare-tipped needles
 P - 25 poisoned needles (quivered)
 S - 82 stones
 T - 2 tomahawks of returning
Armour
 g - a +1 pair of boots (worn)
 l - the +1 robe of Laiff {rC- rN++ Str+4 Int+2}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It makes you vulnerable to cold.
   It greatly protects you from negative energy.
 J - a +1 cloak (worn)
 K - a +2 robe of resistance (worn)
 R - a +2 robe of magic resistance
Jewellery
 x - a +4 ring of evasion (left hand)
 G - an uncursed ring of wizardry
 X - a ring of protection from fire (right hand)
Wands
 j - a wand of digging (13)
 t - a wand of flame (10)
 V - a wand of disintegration (10)
 Z - a wand of iceblast (4)
Scrolls
 k - a scroll of remove curse
 q - 2 scrolls of fog
 v - a scroll of magic mapping
 z - 5 scrolls of amnesia
 H - 2 scrolls of immolation
 U - a scroll of holy word
 Y - a scroll of identify
Potions
 e - a potion of mutation
 f - 5 potions of heal wounds
 h - 4 potions of might
 m - a potion of brilliance
 n - 3 potions of magic
 p - 4 potions of flight
 s - 5 potions of curing
 D - a potion of resistance
 I - 2 potions of cancellation
 L - 2 potions of agility
 O - 2 potions of lignification
Miscellaneous
 Q - a lamp of fire (inert)
Comestibles
 c - 15 rations
 E - 2 chunks of flesh


   Skills:
 + Level 10.7 Fighting
 + Level 11.0 Polearms
 - Level 0.6(1.0) Slings
 - Level 1.0(1.1) Throwing
 - Level 2.1 Armour
 - Level 1.0 Dodging
 - Level 2.1 Stealth
 + Level 12.8 Invocations


You have 11 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.
Your spell library is empty.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (10/15)            Temple (1/1) D:4            Lair (1/6) D:10
   Orc: D:9-12     

Shops:
D:5 (


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You cannot be hasted, slowed, berserked, paralysed or teleported.
You can dig through walls and to a lower floor.
Your four strong arms can wield two-handed weapons with a shield.
You have a pair of large antennae on your head. (SInv)
You have sharp toenails.
You are partially covered in large bone plates. (SH +4)
You are partially covered in slimy green scales. (AC +2)


Any thoughts/alternatives/no-nos?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4011

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Thursday, 12th July 2018, 10:39

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

If your goal is to get second 15-rune game, I'd suggest to use another species, Fo is arguably the hardest species in extended.

I think that whip does more damage than the spear. I'd stop training Invo for a long time. You effectively are playing without defense (AC 10/EV 11), Fighting alone won't be enough pretty soon IMHO. If you are going to stay in light armour, probably put bonus stat points in Dex and train Dodging.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

For this message the author VeryAngryFelid has received thanks:
RoGGa

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5852

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Thursday, 12th July 2018, 15:20

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

If spiny frogs and mambas are responsible for your FOAK lair deaths, it's probably due to not using bend space+a ranged attack enough, as they will die pretty safely to such tactics (the arbalest is a good choice for ranged weapon, and the possible slow gives you more turns to pelt things with it before you have to blink again)

Generally speaking a **AK shouldn't die very often at all to things that can only do melee damage, abuse the heck out of bend space.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks: 2
nago, RoGGa
User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 168

Joined: Thursday, 6th November 2014, 17:19

Location: Canada

Post Friday, 13th July 2018, 03:38

CiP: well rounded XL18 FoAK w/ 1 rune heading to Swamp

VeryAngryFelid wrote:If your goal is to get second 15-rune game, I'd suggest to use another species, Fo is arguably the hardest species in extended.

Thanks for shattering my dreams of using Shatter soon! :lol:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:If you are going to stay in light armour, probably put bonus stat points in Dex and train Dodging.

Thanks, I did that at XL18. Let me know if I should continue doing it again as my FoAK has evolved quite nicely.
My experience is mostly as a hybrid caster so I'm used to using light armour, and finding situations to keep melee one-on-one...if it ever gets to that.

So as a CiP update, I ended up doing most of Orc and most of the Dungeon down to D:15 before finding rPois ...and by then Conjure Flame was <10% and ready to tackle Lair.
It was quite uneventful since my FoAK was much stronger and better prepared than when I've entered early Lair in the past.
Strangely, without having planned to do so, I ended up doing Lair bottom up, since the staircases were well lined up well to do so.
Having used a Scroll of Mapping on L:6 and finding a layout ideal for creating kill holes almost anywhere, I thought I could use Shaft as often as in the past but without much risk. Ends up I only shafted myself once and used Banish more often than in the past ...especially on Hydras.

Other than that, while I was recuperating to full health at some point in Spider Nest, I got sent to the Abyss from a spider stepping on a Zot trap...so I went on a stroll of the Abyss until I was almost at max health. 8-)

Any comments are welcome on my CiP:
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.22-a0-614-g34fbaa0 (tiles) character file.

FoAK the Corrupter of Planes (FoAK)                Turns: 52692, Time: 08:12:03

Health: 143/143    AC: 22    Str: 18    XL:     18   Next: 81%
Magic:  27/27      EV: 20    Int: 18    God:    Lugonu [******]
Gold:   299        SH: 20    Dex: 12    Spells: 1/23 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis +   a - +9 hunting sling {freeze, +Inv Dex+3}
rCold    . . .     Gourm    .   C - +5 shield {reflect}
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   Z - +3 leather armour {rPois}
rPois    +         Spirit   .   (helmet unavailable)
rElec    .         Reflect  +   u - +2 cloak
rCorr    .         Harm     .   A - +2 pair of gloves
MR       +....                  S - +2 pair of boots
Stlth    +++.......             (no amulet)
HPRegen  0.33/turn              N - +4 ring of protection
MPRegen  0.20/turn              m - +4 ring of evasion

@: no status effects
A: permanent stasis, dig shafts and tunnels, four strong arms, antennae 3,
talons 1, large bone plates 1, slimy green scales 1, clumsy 1, MP-powered wands
}: 1/15 runes: gossamer
a: Dig, Shaft Self, Depart the Abyss, Bend Space, Banish, Corrupt, Enter the
Abyss, Renounce Religion, Evoke Invisibility


You are on level 10 of the Dungeon.
You worship Lugonu.
Lugonu is exalted by your worship.
You are near starving.

You have visited 5 branches of the dungeon, and seen 28 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 3 times.
You have also visited: Sewer and Ice Cave.

You have collected 2729 gold pieces.
You have spent 2430 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - the +9 hunting sling of Gozag's Vengeance (weapon) {freeze, +Inv Dex+3}
   (You found it in an ice cave)   
   
   It causes projectiles fired from it to freeze those they strike, causing
   extra injury to most foes and up to half again as much damage against
   particularly susceptible opponents. They can also slow down cold-blooded
   creatures.
   
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
   It lets you turn invisible.
 b - a +9 spear of distortion
 e - a +1 battleaxe of draining
 p - a +2 halberd of protection
 s - a +5 spear of piercing
 t - a +2 trident of flaming
 T - a +4 battleaxe of venom
 X - a +1 war axe of distortion
Missiles
 B - 103 sling bullets (quivered)
 J - 7 javelins
 P - 5 javelins of penetration
 R - a throwing net
Armour
 u - a +2 cloak (worn)
 A - a +2 pair of gloves (worn)
 C - a +5 shield of reflection (worn)
 K - a +2 robe of resistance
 S - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
 Z - a +3 leather armour of poison resistance (worn)
Jewellery
 m - a +4 ring of evasion (right hand)
 G - an uncursed ring of wizardry
 M - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
 N - a +4 ring of protection (left hand)
 W - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
Wands
 g - a wand of polymorph (16)
 i - a wand of flame (84)
 j - a wand of digging (29)
 o - a wand of paralysis (21)
 z - a wand of scattershot (6)
 U - a wand of enslavement (15)
 Y - a wand of disintegration (11)
Scrolls
 k - 11 scrolls of remove curse
 l - a scroll of magic mapping
 q - 4 scrolls of fog
 r - 2 scrolls of summoning
 y - 2 scrolls of fear
 H - 8 scrolls of immolation
Potions
 d - 12 potions of curing
 f - 7 potions of heal wounds
 h - 6 potions of might
 n - 3 potions of magic
 D - a potion of resistance
 E - 7 potions of brilliance
 I - 2 potions of cancellation
 L - 4 potions of agility
 O - 6 potions of lignification
Miscellaneous
 Q - a lamp of fire
Comestibles
 c - 7 rations


   Skills:
 - Level 13.0 Fighting
 + Level 11.0(12.8) Axes
 - Level 11.0(12.8) Polearms
 + Level 9.4(9.5) Slings
 - Level 1.0(5.4) Throwing
 - Level 7.0 Armour
 + Level 8.9 Dodging
 - Level 8.0 Stealth
 - Level 9.0 Shields
 + Level 3.0 Spellcasting
 + Level 5.6 Conjurations
 - Level 4.0 Charms
 + Level 2.6 Necromancy
   Level 5.7 Translocations
 - Level 5.0 Fire Magic
 - Level 3.0 Air Magic
 + Level 12.7 Earth Magic
 - Level 6.0 Poison Magic
 - Level 13.0 Invocations
 - Level 3.0 Evocations


You have one spell level left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Ignite Poison         Fire/Tmut/Pois ###.....     12%         3    ###....
c - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      ###.....     6%          3    ###....
l - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           #####.....   2%          5    ######.
m - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  ###.....     8%          3    ###....
p - Passwall              Tmut/Erth      ####....     1%          2    ##.....
s - Sublimation of Blood  Necr           ##........   10%         2    ##.....
v - Poisonous Vapours     Pois/Air       ###...       4%          2    ##.....
w - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ###.....     7%          2    ##.....

Your spell library contains the following spells:

 Spells                   Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
 Invisibility             Hex            #.......     100%        6    #######
 Freezing Cloud           Conj/Ice/Air   ##........   100%        6    #######
 Ring of Flames           Chrm/Fire      ###.......   100%        7    #######
 Iskenderun's Mystic Bla  Conj           ###.....     19%         4    ####...
 Summon Ice Beast         Ice/Summ       #.......     88%         4    ####...
 Blade Hands              Tmut           #.........   99%         5    ######.
 Statue Form              Tmut/Erth      ####.....    91%         6    #######
 Sticks to Snakes         Tmut           #.......     28%         2    ##.....
 Alistair's Intoxication  Tmut/Pois      ##......     83%         5    ######.
 Petrify                  Tmut/Erth      ####....     14%         4    ####...
 Passage of Golubria      Tloc           N/A          19%         4    ####...
 Summon Hydra             Summ           #.........   100%        7    #######
 Darkness                 Hex            #.........   100%        6    #######
 Fulminant Prism          Conj/Hex       ##........   52%         4    ####...
 Dazzling Spray           Conj/Hex       ##....       19%         3    ###....
 Force Lance              Conj/Tloc      ###.....     19%         4    ####...
 Summon Forest            Summ/Tloc      ##........   85%         5    ######.
 Summon Mana Viper        Hex/Summ       #.......     99%         5    ######.
 Irradiate                Conj/Tmut      ##........   86%         5    ######.


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:4            Lair (6/6) D:10
  Swamp (0/4) Lair:4       Spider (4/4) Lair:3        Slime (0/5) Lair:6
    Orc (2/2) D:12            Elf (0/3) Orc:2        Vaults (0/5) D:13
 Depths (0/5) D:15       

Shops:
D:5 (   D:10 !   Orc:1 (   Orc:2 [*:%

Portals:
Hell: Lair:6
Pandemonium: Orc:2
Trove: D:10 (give 2 scrolls of acquirement)

Annotations:
Lair:3 corrupted
Lair:6 1 runed door
Abyss:1 Azrael


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You cannot be hasted, slowed, berserked, paralysed or teleported.
You can dig through walls and to a lower floor.
Your four strong arms can wield two-handed weapons with a shield.
You have a pair of large antennae on your head. (SInv)
You have sharp toenails.
You are partially covered in large bone plates. (SH +4)
You are partially covered in slimy green scales. (AC +2)
You are clumsy. (Dex -2)
You expend magic power (3 MP) to strengthen your wands.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4011

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Friday, 13th July 2018, 06:42

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

Well, you have 2 melee attacks (axes and polearms), ranged attack (slings), multiple spell attacks (meph + ignite, LRD, Conjure Flame) and now you are trying to train Necro just for Sublimation without any Necro spells in library. Why? Is there a book with Animate Dead in a shop?
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25
User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 168

Joined: Thursday, 6th November 2014, 17:19

Location: Canada

Post Friday, 13th July 2018, 06:51

NVM YASD electrocuted to cinder by Nikola in V:3

In vault:3 with only MR+++ as resistances and injured by a tough encounter with a Fire Giant, my FoAK is about to finish off an Ice Dragon.
Nikola jumps in the action, blinking in right behind the Ice Dragon.
Having only one potion of resistance and not found any rElec yet, I wrongly decided to Meth Cloud ...hoping to then turn it to fire with Ignite Poison once Meth took effect.
Standing in Meth, Niko kills the Ice Dragon with a lightning bolt, and ZAPs my FoAK to less than 50%HP.
Thinking the Meth cloud will kick in since he has no rPois, we exchange heavy damage each with of him still standing in a Meth cloud unaffected. In an epic visual finale...
  Code:
Nikola casts a spell.
You hear a mighty clap of thunder!
The lightning arc hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The lightning arc hits Nikola. The lightning arc hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The lightning arc hits Nikola. The lightning arc hits you!
You die...

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4011

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Friday, 13th July 2018, 06:57

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

You probably should read wiki page about Meph Cloud, it was very unlikely to affect Nicola (3/21, that's less than 15%). RIP.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

For this message the author VeryAngryFelid has received thanks:
RoGGa
User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 168

Joined: Thursday, 6th November 2014, 17:19

Location: Canada

Post Friday, 13th July 2018, 06:59

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

VeryAngryFelid wrote:... Why? Is there a book with Animate Dead in a shop?

No just one with BVC and not enough gold yet since I had wasted ~2000 gold on a Runed Fire Dragon armour for it to only be enchanted to +1. sigh

bel

Dis Charger

Posts: 1905

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Friday, 13th July 2018, 07:14

Re: NVM YASD electrocuted to cinder by Nikola in V:3

RoGGa wrote:Having only one potion of resistance...

Next time, use the potion if it's required, and worry about the future when you get to it. You can't do anything about the future if you're dead.

For this message the author bel has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4011

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Friday, 13th July 2018, 07:27

Re: NVM YASD electrocuted to cinder by Nikola in V:3

bel wrote:
RoGGa wrote:Having only one potion of resistance...

Next time, use the potion if it's required, and worry about the future when you get to it. You can't do anything about the future if you're dead.


I liked previous version of your post more :) Nikola is indeed the best monster to use potion of resistance vs. It deals crazy damage with its Chain Lightning. Though I agree with this version of your post too ;)
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 146

Joined: Wednesday, 30th August 2017, 23:08

Post Friday, 13th July 2018, 16:48

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

Easy lessons: Never underestimate Nikola. He's a bastard. And mephitic cloud checks HD, which makes it unreliable to use against things as the game goes on. (Not to say it isn't useful - when it procs it almost always means a free kill/escape, but you can't rely on it any more once you get that far.

Harder lessons: "Abyssal Knight that learns a bunch of earth magic to the point where they can shatter" is a lot of directions to pull your character in. You've gotta luck into the right spell schools, figure out how to kill things before you find earth magic that's worthwhile, you're likely splitting your xp across invo, weapons, and earth magic (and defenses, of course...) All of that can be done, but it's a tough thing to do. I'd strongly suggest paring down your list of stuff you want to do. The easy example is "You trained 11 levels of both axes and polearms." That's XP that could be better spent elsewhere. Similarly, putting 10 levels into slings and 13 levels into earth magic seems redundant. Abyssal Knights have all the tools you really need without having to worry about magic at all - train a weapon skill, invocations, armor, and you're mostly set. Pick a ranged option that lets you wear heavy armor and a shield (read: Not magic,) and kill "not dangerous" things with your weapon, banish "dangerous things," use corruption when you come across "big packs of scary things," and you're good. Or, if you want to play a caster that casts shatter in a three-rune game, play an earth elementalist, and concentrate your training on that. (Or if you want to cast shatter in a 15-rune game, don't play a Formacid, heh.)

For this message the author Stonar has received thanks: 5
duvessa, nago, RoGGa, VeryAngryFelid, Zhorgal
User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 168

Joined: Thursday, 6th November 2014, 17:19

Location: Canada

Post Tuesday, 17th July 2018, 00:15

AK: use exit out of Abyss instead of Depart the Abyss abilit

VeryAngryFelid wrote:If you want to become a good player, always analyze deaths and learn from mistakes, for example, I always exit Abyss on turn 1.

I noticed that there's usually an exit from the Abyss close to the starting point for AKs.
Considering that the cost of piety is Large for the Ability: Depart the Abyss, I now start by going in an outgoing spiral around the starting point.
Usually, I don't come across a monster during the 1st 50 turns so I think it is well worth going on a roundabout looking for that exit.
And if you're lucky, you might pick up 1 or 2 items while saving some free piety.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4011

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 17th July 2018, 05:12

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

Abyss where AK starts is hard-coded to be a special kind of Abyss, it cannot give you items which you cannot find in d:3 or so while it can easily give you monsters which you cannot easily kill until level 15+. Also I still remember you saying many AKs die in Abyss before leaving so I can just repeat my previous post ;)
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25
User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 168

Joined: Thursday, 6th November 2014, 17:19

Location: Canada

Post Tuesday, 17th July 2018, 06:59

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Also I still remember you saying many AKs die in Abyss before leaving so I can just repeat my previous post ;)

That was before I realized an exit to the dungeon was usually close to the starting point.
Once I find the exit, I do another spiral around that, always keeping it visible on the main map.
Doing so gets me about 1-3 items but it's just regular dungeon items mostly. I feel lucky when I enter the dungeon with boots or a runed robe.
(Only once did I find a lame randart Halberd and made it to D:1)

I'm still experimenting with figuring out which monsters can do a one-shot kill from afar so my death rate in the Abyss for now is ~10%.
If I did it more conservatively, I would likely be in D:1 around 95% of the time with 1-2 items consisting mostly of ammo, potions, or scrolls.

The beauty about FoAKs is that you can dig in the reddish rock walls and ~20% of the time it reappears after you've passed through.
So doing so on many walls of 4+ in length allows me to evade a monster to get that 3rd item a quarter of the time.

I know, I've wasted many FoAKs coming up with this knowledge! :oops:

Edit: Whenever there's a down portal to Abyss 2 close to the starting point or the Exit portal, I'm now experimenting going in a spiral around that to get a few more items.
If my path is blocked to the Exit portal, I take the down portal but I rarely find an Exit portal on Abyss:2 ...so I end up using the Depart the Abyss ability (and in doing so, wasting a Large chunk of piety)

For this message the author RoGGa has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4011

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 17th July 2018, 08:02

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

I see. Probably FO is the best AK for this because other species can get teleported away from the exit.
I hope you know that Lugonu does not grant any piety for killing monsters in Abyss so don't stay for too long or you can lose ability to exit Abyss instantly and will have to find an usual exit.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

For this message the author VeryAngryFelid has received thanks:
RoGGa

bel

Dis Charger

Posts: 1905

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Tuesday, 17th July 2018, 08:35

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

RoGGa wrote:I'm still experimenting with figuring out which monsters can do a one-shot kill from afar so my death rate in the Abyss for now is ~10%.

10% death rate for getting three D:1 quality items (plus some piety) seems bad.

AK already has few or no piety issues. You start with a god, so you get more piety than other many other backgrounds. Just spend the piety to get to actually playing the game. From what I understand, the initial start in the Abyss is just for flavor reasons. You are meant to get to the dungeon ASAP.
User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 168

Joined: Thursday, 6th November 2014, 17:19

Location: Canada

Post Tuesday, 17th July 2018, 10:10

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I see. Probably FO is the best AK for this because other species can get teleported away from the exit.
I hope you know that Lugonu does not grant any piety for killing monsters in Abyss so don't stay for too long or you can lose ability to exit Abyss instantly and will have to find an usual exit.

My FoAK sometimes gets yanked to a different part of the Abyss but not very often. Also, sometimes the miniMap goes dark except for the current LOS.
When the latter happens, even though the layout in the LOS is no different, everything else where I had been is different and the staircases/portals are no longer there.

Btw, I just had my most productive start in the Abyss. I had no intention of going down but I got yanked early to a different part of the Abyss and ended up finding staircases all the way down to A:4!
I ended up in D:1 with: 3 potions, 1 scroll, a phantom mirror, a lamp of fire, and a cursed staff of fire. It's like starting as a Wanderer on lucky charms who found the end of the rainbow!!!
Now on D:10 with:
a - the +9 hand crossbow of the People {flame, rPois Str+4 Int+7}
(You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Dungeon)
User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 168

Joined: Thursday, 6th November 2014, 17:19

Location: Canada

Post Tuesday, 17th July 2018, 10:23

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

bel wrote:AK already has few or no piety issues. You start with a god, so you get more piety than other many other backgrounds. Just spend the piety to get to actually playing the game. From what I understand, the initial start in the Abyss is just for flavor reasons. You are meant to get to the dungeon ASAP.

I like finding the staircase/portal out of the Abyss since it makes it faster to get Bend Space at ** piety.
Whenever I use Lugonu's Depart the Abyss, my FoAK often end up not having Bend Space during those first few tough encounters...and sometimes ends up Shafting into the unknown.

Whoever made the Abyss seems to have made it intentional to have a staircase not far from the starting point.
So getting out without exploring a tad seems to be a big disadvantage to the Large piety loss from using Depart the Abyss.
If this is an "unintentional feature", then someone should file a bug report.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4011

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 17th July 2018, 10:59

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

RoGGa wrote:Whoever made the Abyss seems to have made it intentional to have a staircase not far from the starting point.
So getting out without exploring a tad seems to be a big disadvantage to the Large piety loss from using Depart the Abyss.
If this is an "unintentional feature", then someone should file a bug report.


This is intended indeed. Problem with starting in Abyss is that it has many monsters who can kill XL 1 character with a single ranged attack, sometimes you won't even have a chance to do anything after pressing a movement key without monsters in view. Some players don't mind losing a character this early, others prefer to instantly exit to dungeon because they are more likely to win this way and they dislike losing characters even at turn 2. Devs made everyone happy :)
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 146

Joined: Wednesday, 30th August 2017, 23:08

Post Tuesday, 17th July 2018, 16:38

Re: FoAK: some lessons learned, and some Qs

Yeah, there's nothing inherently wrong with a little Abyss scumming, as long as you're TRYING to keep yourself alive. It is almost definitely optimal to leave abyss turn 1, if you're maximizing for "not dying." But if you don't care about streaks or win percentages or whatever, there's nothing inherently wrong with wandering the Abyss a little.

Return to Dungeon Crawling Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.