Extended: Spell Slots


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Lair Larrikin

Posts: 17

Joined: Sunday, 27th May 2018, 18:21

Post Saturday, 7th July 2018, 12:07

Extended: Spell Slots

First time going for extended with a pure caster.
I've pretty much found and can cast every spell.
De with AC:16+15/EV:30+Rmsl/SH:11.
I'm worshiping Vehumet.
All spell slots available (78).

I'm thinking of:
Fire Storm (9)
Glaciate (9)
Crystal Spear (8)
Chain Lightning (8)
Controlled Blink (8)
Necromutation (8)
OoD (7)
Spellforged Servitor (7)
Maljgn Gateway (7)
Ozo Armor (3)
Regeneration (3)
Summon Butterflies (1)


What would you choose?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8382

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Saturday, 7th July 2018, 21:04

Re: Extended: Spell Slots

Remove: necromutation, glaciate, OoD, servitor, and either chain lightning or LCS or maybe even both. Necromutation is just crap, and the rest of those are redundant when you have fire storm. This would leave 39 free spell slots (47 if you get rid of both chain lightning and LCS). If you're playing trunk, also consider forgetting Ozocubu's Armour because you are moving most of the time in extended.

Add: apportation, sublimation of blood, swiftness, darkness, deflect missiles, borgnjor's revivification, death's door. This would use 33 spell slots. All of these spells are far better than adding additional damage spells.

If you're serious about being able to cast every spell, and you have 9 spell slots left over after adding those seven spells, consider getting Shatter just to break open Tomb/Hell/Pan vaults. Do not prioritize that over the seven spells I mentioned above, however, it's really not worth giving up even one of them.

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Arrhythmia, Atlar, nago

Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 8th July 2018, 01:32

Re: Extended: Spell Slots

I'd add Borgnjor's Vile Clutch to that list. (Yes I know it's an additional damage spell but it also immobilizes monsters and thats why I'm suggesting it).

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Atlar

Lair Larrikin

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Joined: Sunday, 27th May 2018, 18:21

Post Sunday, 8th July 2018, 09:16

Re: Extended: Spell Slots

Thanks for your time, counting spells and spell slots takes more than a few moments.

So, you're saying:
Drop every damage spell but Fire Storm, switch Necromut wiht Borg.+D.Door and fill up with utility.
That means, every time I can't melee something I will wake up the whole level. Then I'll proceed by firestorming the hell out of the approaching hordes and if things go south, or monsters get too close for F.Storm, I blink away or cast D.Door, so I can blast adjacent dudes.

Sounds like it should work... but it's like going "all in" :lol:
I'll give it a try.
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Barkeep

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Post Sunday, 8th July 2018, 14:58

Re: Extended: Spell Slots

If my math is right, you'll still have enough slots for LCS. While it's not, like, super quiet, it's a lot quieter than Fire Storm and is a pretty good choice for single targets you don't want to melee as long as your spell power is good.

Don't forget Malign Gateway as a killdudes option.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

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Atlar

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Sunday, 8th July 2018, 19:16

Re: Extended: Spell Slots

Yeah, I did say you may want to keep LCS or chain lightning (chain lightning isn't any quieter than fire storm though). Note that Malign Gateway is actually pretty quiet.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 310

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Wednesday, 11th July 2018, 16:17

Re: Extended: Spell Slots

The spells I would recommend for extended depend on whether you worship TSO or Mak. If TSO, you skip all necromantic spells (of course.) TSO is probably the strongest option (or at least the one with the fewest experience requirements.) If you cannot worship TSO or do not want to for some particular reason then Mak is the next best choice. With Mak you do want necromantic spells.

This list assumes as you've said, you can cast any spell you want:

[core spells]
* Firestorm - long/medium range nukes, for stuff that resists fire
* Ignition - situational nukes, often better than firestorm for large tight packs, easier to cast
* Ring of Flames - boosts your fire spell damage. Tends to lean you towards ice dragon armour (which is a good armour, easily found.)
* Tornado - close range mop-up, buys you time to channel mana, irresistible damage
* LCS - close range single target high damage, use on pan lords, bosses, etc.
* Aura of Abjuration - removes pesky and sometimes dangerous hostile summons
* Deflect Missiles - very good defensive spell
* Necromutation - protects you from torment, mutations, helps with mummy curses, the ac/rN+++/rC+/MR+ help you get more from your gear selections to reach desired levels. This is a strong spell, particularly in extended. I would ignore comments to not use it. The key is to tactically use it, not just leave it on all the time. You may specifically want it off for certain conditions. Remember though, if you do leave it on the rest of the time, it takes less to end it than it does to cast it when you want it on.
* Regeneration - slightly helps you recover health when necromutation is off, regen and regen items are very good because extended doesn't want to let you easily rest in many places (hell for example.)
* Sublimation of Blood - situationally good, when you know you have a stream of health coming in, and you're not in lichform, such as just after launching a tornado, but before it starts killing everything.
* Dispel Undead - quite good for killing ghosts, it isn't needed but it's often helpful enough to make the core group
* Blink - I usually choose this over controlled blink to save points, because I usually have a stack of blink scrolls. Often used in conjunction with a fog scroll for tight situations.
* Apportation - not strictly needed, but so cheap and helpful I always take it

Options:

Shatter - A very strong option if you can handle yet another level 9 with all the different spell schools. The only way now to break walls.
Darkness - generally good even without stealth because it lowers LOS.
Invisibility - helpful with hellions, decent enough to give you a break sometimes
Controlled Blink - I might choose this if I don't think I have enough blink scrolls
Passage of Golubria - I don't bother with this usually but some people like it
Passwall - pretty useful if you can break walls, worth considering, I don't usually need it though
Portal Projectile - good for adding smite targetting to throwing or launchers if you want to snipe something in a crowd
LRD - Used to be useful for wall breaking, I wouldn't spend the points on it now


The basic tactics, if you're going up against a worst case scenario, use a Zig for example:

Use buffs in advance: i.e.: necromutation or regeneration, ring of flames, darkness, invisibility (etc.)

Advance until you know what you're dealing with

Open with firestorm to hit stuff out of LOS (potentially), and create blockers. Alternately, you can use Ignition if the targets are scattered or so many and tightly packed that it becomes more useful.

You want to swap between enhancer staffs and mana channeling staff frequently, and channel mana (or sublimate) in the moments where you get a breather. The goal is to keep your health and mana both high. Keep targets that aren't a threat, (but are potentially health/mana boosters when you kill them) alive and in LOS until you actually need to recharge from fighting something that can and does hurt you.

When stuff gets too close, if it's a lot of things you can either use Ignition again or Tornado. If it's a single target or it is resistant to both those, LCS is your last line of defense.

You never want to lose control if you can help it. Retreating should be a last resort. The best options are generally, controlled blink, fog, blink...teleport scroll. I suppose if you want you could use B. revivification, but I am not a fan. I like to get out of danger as quickly as possible, then get back to full strength as quickly as possible. Any time spent where you are super-weak is a dangerous habit to rely upon.

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Atlar

Lair Larrikin

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Joined: Sunday, 27th May 2018, 18:21

Post Friday, 13th July 2018, 16:45

Re: Extended: Spell Slots

I've just finished the game with 15 runes :) http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Atlar ... 131733.txt
Here's my spell list:

Fire Storm (9)
Glaciate (9)
OoD (7)
BVC (5)
Necromutation (8)
Death's Door (8)
Controlled Blink (8)
Malign Gateway (7)
Deflect Missiles (6)
Darkness (6)
Regeneration (3)
Ozo Armor (3)
(Summon Butterflies (1))

Compare with duvessa's proposal:
Fire Storm (9)
Shatter (9)
LCS/Chain Light.(8/8)
Borgnjor's Rev. (8)
Death's Door (8)
Controlled Blink (8)
Malign Gateway (7)
Deflect Missiles (6)
Darkness (6)
Regeneration (3)
Sublimation of Blood (2)
Swiftness (2)
Apportation (1)
Summon Butterflies (1)

First main difference: Different/More damage spells
Fire-Storm only (+LCS/Chain) doesn't seem optimal to me. Fire immune/resistant enemies took many hits to kill (brimstone fiend: 4, hell sentinel: 5, etc.), better to have something else up your sleeve. Glaciate one-hits brimstone, OoD two-hits sentinels. Of course, LCS fits that bill, too, but the range is so low and it can miss... don't like it. Glaciate is helpful against enemies in melee, OoD to kill "silently".
BVC is epic (thanks ebering). BVC+Malign+OoD, nasty combo. Killed Mnoleg, Gloorx, Antaeus and Dispater that way. Also nice to kill popcorn and to prevent monsters from reaching melee.

Second main difference: Necromutation
Thought really hard about that one.
Borg+D.Door enables quite a number of helpful buffs (potions, sublimation, regeneration) and gives you two great panic buttons, but it leaves you vulnerable to torment.
Necro makes you more resillient: rtorm, rpois, rc+, +6AC, rn+++, but disables mentioned buffs.
Depending on gear swap, my AC was at 13-16, (besides a rc+ shield, which I had to swap out for rn++ when alive) I had no reasonable source of rc+ or rpois, and with 165hp only 1-2 torments were enough to drop me into the red zone. So, forgetting Necro seemed unwise.
In the end, I went full Necro when I needed the resists (Cocytus, Dis, Mnoleg's realm) and otherwise switched between alive/necro, depending on circumstances. About 2/3 necro, though. C.Blink is enough to get you out of any trouble, no need for extra escape options. Didn't need sublimation either, staff of energy + crystal ball proved to be sufficient.
Only exception is the Orb Run, where I absolutely should have dropped Necro for Borg. No C.Blink+being undead almost killed me... won't make that mistake again.

TL;DR: Compared to duvessa I traded a number of escape options for higher killspeed, safer (read: silent) killing and higher resilience.


Some further notes:
Had hoped that 30EV+Rmsl would be enough... but ancient liches taught me it's absoluletly not. Kinda sad, so I had to use Dmsl.
Never needed Darkness or Death's Door.
Malign Gateway is nuts.
Shatter+ stealing runes is not my style :mrgreen:
Extended spell list for beefier/more fighting capable casters would probably look different.


@svendre: You make many good points, I disagree on two, though:
TSO/Mak are absolutely not necessary for extended. Won my Gh with Wu Jian and my De with Vehumet. With the right strategy, most gods should be reasonable for extended.
Imo, Ignition is a waste of spell slots for everything but Zigs and maybe Tomb and V:5. Never encountered big enoug clumps of enemies to use it over fire storm/glaciate.



Thanks to everyone for the good comments :)


Edit: If anyone is interested, here is the YAVP: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=25524

bel

Dis Charger

Posts: 1900

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Saturday, 14th July 2018, 09:03

Re: Extended: Spell Slots

Honestly, you could have won with any combination that included Fire Storm and Controlled Blink.

But it's fine that you went with whatever you were most comfortable with.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 310

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Saturday, 14th July 2018, 17:35

Re: Extended: Spell Slots

@svendre: You make many good points, I disagree on two, though:
TSO/Mak are absolutely not necessary for extended. Won my Gh with Wu Jian and my De with Vehumet. With the right strategy, most gods should be reasonable for extended.
Imo, Ignition is a waste of spell slots for everything but Zigs and maybe Tomb and V:5. Never encountered big enoug clumps of enemies to use it over fire storm/glaciate.

No, TSO/Mak are not absolutely necessary, you can win with a lot of conditions and even handicaps. I was answering you with my opinion of what's the most powerful lineup. If you say other gods are more consistent, I disagree. The thing is, as hard as you might try, the game throws all sorts of damage at you that you cannot resist or avoid. The surest way to stay alive, overall, is to have a method of quickly replenishing your health/mana.

You might take some more time considering ignition before you cross it off your list because it can do some serious damage. The other reason why it's an interesting spell is that it is level 8, and quite a bit easier to get online before the big 4 level 9 spells. Also, consider that you don't need to kill every monster as you find it. Expert positioning often entails intentionally causing enemies to form up into big clumps (often behind a choke point.)

As for shatter, it's not really just about ninja'ing runes, although it could be used that way. The utility of shatter is create advantageous terrain such as choke-points where no good ones exist. It also hits things outside LOS. I don't think I've ever once not killed a boss when I could, and shatter remains useful. Some races like gargoyles tip the scales, because of their aptitudes.

I might have added BVC to my lineup. I would for sure if you weren't able to cast a bunch of level 8's and 9's. The only reason to not take it really is to save spell points if you're already heavily loaded down with firepower and/or using tornado. It's good if you're more of a melee character casting lower level spells. Sure a lot of extended isn't like a Zig, but some of it can be sometimes. You generally don't want to wait around for many damage over time effects in a Zig (except tornado.) Tornado is incompatible with BVC since it throws things around.

If you treat the game like you're going into a worst case scenario, you increase your odds of surviving. Winning your first 15 rune game may feel like you've got your set figured out, but give it a bit more time and a few more runs and you may have a slightly different perspective (I think I have over 100 15 rune games online.)

As for glaciate, there is no questioning it is a powerful spell, and it should be for being a level 9. But, here are some of the reasons it didn't make the cut (versus tornado):
* Lack of 360 degree angle, assume you'll get surrounded. Tornado is full 360 degrees.
* Somewhat incompatible with firestorm for wiping burning clouds. Tornado moves them around.
* No damage over time component. Tornado hits hard and with practice, can be used very effectively to regain health/mana and/or while doing other things.
* Tornado can be pre-cast, before you come around a corner or whatever, so again it's got abilities that front-loaded damage spells like firestorm/glaciate don't have.
* Ice school isn't that useful later on, except perhaps ozocubu's armour (but requires weak armour and has been movement-nerfed) or ozocubu's ref (which is decent.. but still not needed enough to make the final cut.) Air on the other hand is certainly used for at least deflect missiles.
* There are several conflicts with ring of flames
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Abyss Ambulator

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Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Wednesday, 18th July 2018, 04:53

Re: Extended: Spell Slots

Get:
Fire Storm (9)
Chain Lightning (kills fire enemies fast, they tend to have hellfire too) (8)
OOD (for omniresistants when you don't want to waste tons of MP) (7)
Controlled Blink (8)
Apportation (1)
Regeneration (3)
Deflect Missiles (6)
Necromutation (8)
Borgnjor's Revivification (8)
Borgnjor's Vile Clutch (5)

that's 63 levels, I think, so use the remaining 15 on utility spells you might use every now and then like passwall or passage
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