Lair Larrikin
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If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.
Lair Larrikin
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Slime Squisher
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alastair wrote:The enemies would be making lots of sounds as they move around the dungeon, yet why is that when they hear any sound from the player they automatically know it's from an intruder?
Mines Malingerer
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Fingolfin wrote:It's a game mechanic. Why do wounds close between fights? Why does the character not feel pain?
Lair Larrikin
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Slime Squisher
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Tartarus Sorceror
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mattlistener wrote:Loud sounds are made by the clang of combat, destructive spells, screaming etc -- which aren't normal sounds in the dungeon. (It's an internally peaceful society.)
Tartarus Sorceror
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Lair Larrikin
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Shtopit wrote:So when you hear a blaring wail you can expect to find a load of monsters there? Or will the concentration dissipate fairly quickly, since they won't find any enemy there?
Tartarus Sorceror
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Barkeep
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Spider Stomper
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Dungeon Master
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njvack wrote:I thought berserking monsters yelled sometimes?
Mines Malingerer
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advil wrote: If the noise trap is moderately close but still out of los, you'll often hear waking monsters shouting in response
Spider Stomper
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syringe wrote:advil wrote: If the noise trap is moderately close but still out of los, you'll often hear waking monsters shouting in response
Are you sure about that?
Monsters may move toward a noise, but you won't hear them shouting unless you are close to the noise, something like 3 tiles away or closer.
Mines Malingerer
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crawlnoob wrote:I can stand three steps away from the end of a corridor, or a corner, or whatever, and shout, and I will often hear all kinds of things out of LoS shouting
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syringe wrote:advil wrote: If the noise trap is moderately close but still out of los, you'll often hear waking monsters shouting in response
Are you sure about that?
Monsters may move toward a noise, but you won't hear them shouting unless you are close to the noise, something like 3 tiles away or closer.
The fireball explodes!
explosion at (42, 34) : g=247 c=4 f=3 hit=40 dam=3d14 r=1
Noise 15 (orig: 15; ambient: 0) at pos(42,34)
Noise 5 (orig: 5; ambient: 0) at pos(38,34)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(46,34)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(43,43)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(31,31)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(31,44)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(31,26)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(51,24)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(52,38)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(52,28)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(53,31)
You hear a deafening roar!
Noise 12 (orig: 12; ambient: 0) at pos(36,21)
You hear an angry hiss.
Noise 4 (orig: 4; ambient: 0) at pos(33,49)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(55,27)
You hear a deafening roar!
Noise 12 (orig: 12; ambient: 0) at pos(33,50)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(55,22)
You hear two shouts!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(56,29)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(22,41)
You hear a deafening roar!
Noise 12 (orig: 12; ambient: 0) at pos(26,19)
You hear a shout!
Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(22,19)
You hear a shout!
_Noise 8 (orig: 8; ambient: 0) at pos(43,55)
Noise within LOS is really important. It is why an ultra stealthy character can go unnoticed for many turns in full view of a big pack, then in 1 turn, everything suddenly knows where you are.
Mines Malingerer
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Dungeon Master
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syringe wrote:The player is at (38,34) and the explosion is at (42, 34). That is very close together. Shoot the fireball a bit farther and you won't hear those shouts. This is why I question that you could ever hear monsters shouting in response to a noise trap "moderately close but still out of los".
Mines Malingerer
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Dungeon Master
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syringe wrote:You could have used fireball or noise trap, but you wouldn't hear monsters shout if it's activated sufficiently far from you, like near the edge of your LOS.
I suspect that the monsters actually don't shout, but can't be sure. You definitely can't hear them shout.
Ziggurat Zagger
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syringe wrote:You could have used fireball or noise trap, but you wouldn't hear monsters shout if it's activated sufficiently far from you, like near the edge of your LOS.
I suspect that the monsters actually don't shout, but can't be sure. You definitely can't hear them shout.
Mines Malingerer
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advil wrote:detonating a fireball near the edge of your los will definitely cause audible shouts if monsters are in the right position.
Siegurt wrote:If a monster is 11 tiles away and you could hear it shout, you could hear it shout regardless of where the noise that wakes it up originated
Abyss Ambulator
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syringe wrote:why?Siegurt wrote:If a monster is 11 tiles away and you could hear it shout, you could hear it shout regardless of where the noise that wakes it up originated
Tartarus Sorceror
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Ziggurat Zagger
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syringe wrote:why?Siegurt wrote:If a monster is 11 tiles away and you could hear it shout, you could hear it shout regardless of where the noise that wakes it up originated
Mines Malingerer
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Ziggurat Zagger
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syringe wrote:advil wrote:detonating a fireball near the edge of your los will definitely cause audible shouts if monsters are in the right position.
This is easy to test, why don't you try it? Sorcerers are red, high priests are blue, monster reactions to faraway sounds are inaudible to you.
Just because my observations are unintuitive or contrary to duvessa does not make them untrue.why?Siegurt wrote:If a monster is 11 tiles away and you could hear it shout, you could hear it shout regardless of where the noise that wakes it up originated
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Siegurt wrote:syringe wrote:advil wrote:detonating a fireball near the edge of your los will definitely cause audible shouts if monsters are in the right position.
This is easy to test, why don't you try it? Sorcerers are red, high priests are blue, monster reactions to faraway sounds are inaudible to you.
Just because my observations are unintuitive or contrary to duvessa does not make them untrue.why?Siegurt wrote:If a monster is 11 tiles away and you could hear it shout, you could hear it shout regardless of where the noise that wakes it up originated
Ok, so more investigation (with the hint from the above learnDB entry) leads to a (IMHO broken) discovery of "if the source of noise is far from you, it can't actually cause monsters to shout and start seeking you *unless the source of noise is a noise trap*".
A fireball or LRD that isn't close to you can wake up an out of LOS critter, but it *can't* shout, and therefore you wouldn't hear it (and it wanders, rather than seeking you, specifically) If a monster out of LOS is made to shout for any reason, regardless of the source you *can* hear it if you are close enough to the critter, but an explosion noise *can't* cause a critter to shout if the source of that explosion isn't close to you. (I don't know the "location" of for example, Qaz's storms, does each cloud generate it's own noise, or do you just emit noise from your location, if it's the former, it might explain why Qaz never seems as bad as I expect.)
So the problem wasn't with your evidence, it was with the way you stated your conclusion, it's not that creatures's shouts are inaudible, it's that they actually aren't made to shout at all if the apparent source of the sound isn't very near the player. You did mention that you didn't think that critters didn't shout earlier, but I'd elided that into an assumption about not hearing them.
Ziggurat Zagger
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advil wrote:Yes, I've been looking into this some more and the current behavior is extremely weird (and not what anyone in here thought, really). Monsters only shout if you are their foe, and on loud noises only set you as their foe if their fuzzed perception of the noise source is within a few tiles of your actual location (which they somehow know), otherwise foe stays as MHITNOT. I'm going to change this somehow I think, though it's not obvious how to do it and avoid some balance issues.
(For the qaz question, the radius is large enough -- 3 squares grid distance -- that there'll still be a ton of noise coming from your perceived location.)
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Siegurt wrote:advil wrote:Yes, I've been looking into this some more and the current behavior is extremely weird (and not what anyone in here thought, really). Monsters only shout if you are their foe, and on loud noises only set you as their foe if their fuzzed perception of the noise source is within a few tiles of your actual location (which they somehow know), otherwise foe stays as MHITNOT. I'm going to change this somehow I think, though it's not obvious how to do it and avoid some balance issues.
(For the qaz question, the radius is large enough -- 3 squares grid distance -- that there'll still be a ton of noise coming from your perceived location.)
I'd suggest making noise decreasingly likely to set you as their foe depending on distance from you (100% at you, something like 10% at LOS) with the other possibility being the current wandering/MHITNOT behavior, maybe something slightly less harsh than that if we don't want to overly perturb the current balance of how many things get attracted to your location.
syringe wrote:Just because my observations are unintuitive or contrary to duvessa does not make them untrue.
Mines Malingerer
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Siegurt wrote:So the problem wasn't with your evidence, it was with the way you stated your conclusion
Lair Larrikin
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Mines Malingerer
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duvessa wrote:In fact, there's not even anything in the code that tracks whether a noise originated from the player or not, so if you wanted to make monsters only investigate player-caused noise you'd have to do quite a bit of refactoring.
shout.cc wrote:1385 // If the noise came from the character, any nearby monster
1386 // will be jumping on top of them.
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syringe wrote:duvessa wrote:In fact, there's not even anything in the code that tracks whether a noise originated from the player or not, so if you wanted to make monsters only investigate player-caused noise you'd have to do quite a bit of refactoring.shout.cc wrote:1385 // If the noise came from the character, any nearby monster
1386 // will be jumping on top of them.
Mines Malingerer
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syringe wrote:Since when is source = cause? Anyway if there were no <=3 part, then a monster shouting right next to you would not be able to alert other monsters to your position. They would have to continue to wander until they beat your stealth check, or until they blindly bumped into you. Doubtful this existed. There must have been some other way monsters made each other notice you. How did it work? "The old noise propagation system alerted all monsters within `loudness' radius of the noise source, ignoring obstacles between the observer and the noise source." - ?
Is this new chance to alert rolled once per noise, for all monsters? Or separately for each monster that hears the noise?
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