YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(


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Temple Termagant

Posts: 14

Joined: Monday, 12th June 2017, 18:59

Location: Russia

Post Monday, 26th June 2017, 06:47

YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Hi everyone!)
Well, I don't know how to play in DC:SS after this. So promising build... And so stupid death.
And all because I felt power of my gargoyle, lost vigilance & gg :D
I met Pan Lord, he's summoned many different demons + tentacled monstrosity, they surround me... I want to escape but tentacled creature constrict me and I even din't have enough mana pool for Controlled Blink. On next turn Pan Lord dealt a crushing blow with 58(!) damage.
I could escape death if I had drank a potion of heal wounds and used a scroll of blinking but I didn't do it thinking that everything would be fine.
I first time go so far in the game.
Do you think it's worth starting the game again with the same build or try another variant?
Thanks for reading this post from the newbie :)


  Code:
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.20.0 (tiles) character file.

949484 Fiegiw the Slayer (level 27, -21/193 HPs)
             Began as a Gargoyle Earth Elementalist on June 22, 2017.
             Was the Champion of the Shining One.
             Collided with a tentacled monstrosity (58 damage)
             ... caused by Viamn the pandemonium lord
             ... in Pandemonium on June 26, 2017.
             The game lasted 16:24:53 (160660 turns).

Fiegiw the Slayer (Gargoyle Earth Elementalist)   Turns: 160660, Time: 16:24:54

Health: -21/193    AC: 40    Str: 20    XL:     27
Magic:  4/47       EV: 16    Int: 33    God:    the Shining One [******]
Gold:   4369       SH:  0    Dex: 10    Spells: 7/67 levels left

rFire    + + +     SeeInvis .   d - +3 staff {rElec rF++ rC++ MR++ AC+5}
rCold    + + +     Gourm    .   (no shield)
rNeg     + + +     Faith    .   J - +2 robe {Archmagi}
rPois    ?         Spirit   .   p - +2 helmet {Int+3}
rElec    +         Reflect  .   y - scarf {rC+ rF+}
rCorr    .         Harm     .   k - +2 pair of gloves {Str+3}
MR       ++++.                  i - +2 pair of boots
Stlth    +.........             U - amulet "Layst" {Regen+ Str+4}
Regen    0.9/turn               H - ring of wizardry
MPRegen  0.3/turn               f - +2 ring of intelligence

@: flying, glowing, constricted
A: big wings, molten scales 1, negative energy resistance 1, sense surroundings
1, electricity resistance, unbreathing, petrification resistance, rot immunity,
AC +20
}: 6/15 runes: decaying, serpentine, silver, golden, abyssal, demonic
a: Stop Flying, Divine Shield, Cleansing Flame, Summon Divine Warrior, Brand
Weapon With Holy Wrath, Renounce Religion


You were in Pandemonium.
You worshipped the Shining One.
The Shining One was exalted by your worship.
You were not hungry.

You visited 13 branches of the dungeon, and saw 57 of its levels.
You visited Pandemonium 1 time, and saw 5 of its levels.
You visited the Abyss 2 times.
You also visited: Trove, Ice Cave, Volcano and Wizlab.

You collected 11940 gold pieces.
You spent 7571 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 d - the +3 Elemental Staff (weapon) {rElec rF++ rC++ MR++ AC+5}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Depths)   
   
   It affects your AC (+5).
   It greatly protects you from fire.
   It greatly protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
Armour
 i - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
 k - a +2 pair of gloves of strength (worn)
 p - a +2 helmet of intelligence (worn)
 y - a scarf of resistance (worn)
 J - a +2 robe of the Archmagi (worn)
Jewellery
 f - a +2 ring of intelligence (right hand)
 B - an uncursed ring of resist corrosion {unknown}
 H - a ring of wizardry (left hand)
 U - the amulet "Layst" (around neck) {Regen+ Str+4}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Depths)   
   
   [amulet of regeneration]
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
Wands
 g - a wand of clouds (2/9)
 v - a wand of scattershot (4/9)
 D - a wand of iceblast (8/15)
 P - a wand of clouds (3/9)
 Q - a wand of acid (0/15)
Scrolls
 a - 14 scrolls of teleportation
 r - 24 scrolls of remove curse
 x - 28 scrolls of identify
 A - 15 scrolls of blinking
 R - 7 scrolls of recharging
Potions
 h - a potion of cancellation
 l - a potion of mutation
 m - 5 potions of ambrosia
 n - 35 potions of curing
 q - 6 potions of brilliance
 u - 8 potions of haste
 w - 15 potions of heal wounds
Books
 j - the Papyrus of the Entourage and Stones
   (You found it in Pandemonium)   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Sandblast                    Earth                         1
    b - Summon Butterflies           Summoning                     1
    c - Summon Ice Beast             Ice/Summoning                 4
    d - Aura of Abjuration           Summoning                     5
    e - Shatter                      Earth                         9
 s - a book of the Earth   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Leda's Liquefaction          Hexes/Earth                   4
    b - Bolt of Magma                Conjuration/Fire/Earth        5
    c - Statue Form                  Transmutation/Earth           6
    d - Iron Shot                    Conjuration/Earth             6
    e - Shatter                      Earth                         9
 z - a book of Necromancy   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Pain                         Necromancy                    1
    b - Animate Skeleton             Necromancy                    1
    c - Vampiric Draining            Necromancy                    3
    d - Regeneration                 Charms/Necromancy             3
    e - Animate Dead                 Necromancy                    4
    f - Control Undead               Necromancy                    4
   
   
   The Shining One disapproves of the use of such an item.
Miscellaneous
 b - 4 boxes of beasts
 o - 6 phantom mirrors
 t - a figurine of a ziggurat
 F - a phial of floods (inert)
 G - 3 sacks of spiders
 M - a lamp of fire (inert)
Comestibles
 c - 39 meat rations
 C - 2 chunks of flesh
 E - a royal jelly
 V - 10 bread rations


   Skills:
 + Level 25,5 Fighting
 - Level 15,0 Dodging
 - Level 2,1 Stealth
 + Level 20,7 Spellcasting
 - Level 25,2 Conjurations
 - Level 15,0 Translocations
   Level 0,7 Transmutations
 + Level 23,8 Fire Magic
 * Level 10,8 Ice Magic
 - Level 25,1 Earth Magic
 - Level 11,0 Invocations
 - Level 15,0 Evocations


You had 7 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      ########..   1%          9    ######.
b - Controlled Blink      Tloc           N/A          5%          8    ####...
c - Iron Shot             Conj/Erth      ########..   0%          6    None
d - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           ########..   0%          5    None
e - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          0%          2    None
f - Ring of Flames        Chrm/Fire      ########..   2%          7    #......
g - Bolt of Magma         Conj/Fire/Erth ########..   0%          5    None
h - Glaciate              Conj/Ice       ########..   16%         9    ######.
k - Shatter               Erth           ########..   1%          9    ######.


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:6            Lair (6/6) D:10
  Swamp (4/4) Lair:2        Snake (4/4) Lair:4        Slime (0/5) Lair:5
    Orc (2/2) D:11            Elf (3/3) Orc:2        Vaults (5/5) D:14
  Crypt (3/3) Vaults:2       Tomb (3/3) Crypt:3      Depths (5/5) D:15
   Hell (1/1)                 Dis (0/7) Hell            Geh (0/7) Hell
    Coc (0/7) Hell            Tar (0/7) Hell            Zot (5/5) Depths:5

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Hepliaklqana
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Uskayaw
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One
Beogh
Jiyva

Shops:
Orc:1 [   Orc:2 !*[   Elf:1 }   Elf:2 ?   Snake:3 }}   Vaults:1 ?![?   Vaults:5 }   Depths:1 (   Depths:2 ?

Portals:
Hell: Lair:6 Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:4 Depths:5
Abyss: Depths:4
Pandemonium: Depths:1 Depths:3
Ziggurat: Depths:2


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to torment.
Your stone body is resilient. (AC +20)
You are immune to poison.
Your large and strong wings let you fly indefinitely.
You resist negative energy. (rN+)
You are resistant to electric shocks. (rElec)
You can survive without breathing.
You are immune to petrification.
You are immune to rotting.
You are partially covered in molten scales. (AC +2)
You passively map a small area around you.


Message History

Your redback bites the large abomination.
Your redback bites the tentacled monstrosity!
The tentacled monstrosity looks as sick as possible!
Your redback poisons the tentacled monstrosity!
The large abomination completely misses you.
The hellwing is engulfed in blazing flames.
The hellwing hits your water elemental. x2
Your water elemental hits the large abomination!
The large abomination hits your water elemental!!!
The tentacled monstrosity barely misses you.
The tentacled monstrosity completely misses you.
The tentacled monstrosity tentacle-slaps you but does no damage.
The tentacled monstrosity constricts you.
Your water elemental hits the tentacled monstrosity.
Viamn gestures at you.
The lance of force hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You are knocked back by the lance of force.
You collide with the tentacled monstrosity!
You die...

              ,  ,*           ,
       *      ,  ##########*
                 #......#)##   ,
                ##......#..##
                #.......#...##
         ,**   ##.......'....##
           ', ,'........#.....# .
         , **  #.......(#.....#..
         ,  * #.........)).......
    ,     ,  *#######)###........
        , ,##,#XXXX#....#.[......
         ,##..#EXX##....).....#.#
        .##...#EX&@X....#.....# #
        ......§42##Xs...##'####
        ......#X.#.s....# .).,
        ###...#.##.....3'.....
          ###.2X#.......#.....#
         , ,#'.)##+###### .....#*  *
           .2##.),  ,    ,...... *
 ,  ,    ,... #)2#   ,
        #...  .#..,
*       ###*  # ... ,
       ?    *   .## ,,
         *    , .. ,  ,
             ,                    ,


You could see Viamn (dazed), 2 tentacled monstrosities, a balrug, 7 large
abominations, a hellwing, a smoke demon, 2 friendly water elementals and 2
friendly redbacks.

Vanquished Creatures
  5 ancient liches
  6 orbs of fire
  Khufu (Tomb:2)
  3 pandemonium lords (Pan)
  Mennas (Depths:5)
  22 greater mummies
  Sojobo (Crypt:3)
  Margery (Depths:5)
  Frederick (Tomb:2)
  Vashnia (Snake:4)
  4 Killer Klowns
  11 golden dragons
  Jory (Vaults:3)
  Nikola (Vaults:1)
  Geryon (Hell)
  2 profane servitors
  Jorgrun (Crypt:3)
  4 Brimstone Fiends (Pan)
  3 Tzitzimimeh (Pan)
  2 bone dragons
  5 electric golems
  A hellephant (Pan)
  An Ice Fiend (IceCv)
  A Cloud Mage (WizLab)
  25 Orb Guardians (Zot:5)
  26 tentacled monstrosities
  2 Hell Sentinels (Pan)
  4 deep elf master archers (Elf:3)
  5 titans
  Asterion (Snake:3)
  10 liches
  Murray (Hell)
  6 Executioners (Pan)
  6 quicksilver dragons
  13 sphinxes
  A deep elf blademaster (Elf:3)
  Frances (Swamp:1)
  A kraken (Abyss:3)
  A thorn hunter (Swamp:4)
  8 death cobs
  14 ancient champions
  6 draconian monks
  6 tentacled starspawn
  Donald (Vaults:3)
  13 shadow dragons
  16 storm dragons
  8 tengu reavers
  Kirke (Swamp:1)
  3 warmongers (Pan)
  5 revenants
  11 fire giants
  9 frost giants
  6 nagarajas
  11 deep elf sorcerers
  A frost giant (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  3 corrupters (Pan)
  10 vault wardens
  13 balrugs
  8 draconian knights
  9 draconian scorchers
  4 orc warlords
  9 draconian shifters
  5 cacodemons (Pan)
  4 curse skulls
  4 ghost moths
  3 draconian stormcallers
  2 deep elf elementalists
  19 stone giants
  7 reapers
  5 draconian annihilators
  6 ghouls
  2 blood saints (Pan)
  8 war gargoyles
  19 ironheart preservers
  40 very ugly things
  2 caustic shrike skeletons
  13 black draconians
  4 entropy weavers
  4 bennus (Tomb:3)
  6 vampire knights
  10 deep elf demonologists
  2 black suns (Pan)
  7 green draconians
  10 lorocyprocas
  17 yellow draconians
  9 deep elf annihilators
  10 spark wasps
  16 purple draconians
  5 red draconians
  2 dire elephants
  15 white draconians
  2 eidola
  A merfolk javelineer (Depths:2)
  6 crystal guardians
  2 green deaths (Pan)
  A minotaur (shapeshifter) (Depths:5)
  29 mummy priests
  23 ettins
  A spectral quicksilver dragon (Crypt:3)
  4 blizzard demons
  18 jiangshi
  7 deep elf death magi
  A quicksilver dragon zombie (Tomb:1)
  7 deep elf high priests
  The ghost of Vuqoligg the Geomancer, a journeyman GrEE of Vehumet (Lair:3)
  A quicksilver dragon skeleton (Depths:2)
  13 fire dragons
  25 yaktaur captains
  3 monstrous demonspawn (Pan)
  19 great orbs of eyes
  22 naga warriors
  31 hydras
  22 ice dragons
  A kraken zombie (Hell)
  An anaconda (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  33 vault guards
  8 rakshasas
  4 spriggan air magi
  19 centaur warriors
  2 ghost crabs
  Fannar (Lair:1)
  2 catoblepae
  16 death knights
  A merfolk avatar (Abyss:3)
  The ghost of Esadd the Geomancer, a journeyman GrEE of Vehumet (Lair:1)
  16 anacondas
  7 alligators
  14 deep troll shamans
  84 two-headed ogres
  23 ogre magi
  35 dancing weapons
  6 death yaks
  17 death scarabs
  9 vampire magi
  7 deep troll earth magi
  7 tengu warriors
  5 hell hogs
  18 naga sharpshooters
  48 sun demons
  An iron golem (Hell)
  A shock serpent (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  7 thrashing horrors
  Urug (Orc:1)
  7 shock serpents
  13 soul eaters
  4 orc high priests (Orc:2)
  5 spriggan berserkers
  8 sixfirhies
  8 wretched stars
  21 deep elf knights
  A titan skeleton (Depths:2)
  4 salamander mystics
  5 iron trolls
  5 shadow wraiths
  3 spatial maelstroms
  25 hell knights
  65 skeletal warriors
  A ghost moth zombie (Hell)
  A fire crab (Abyss:3)
  4 gelid demonspawn (Pan)
  12 flayed ghosts
  An anaconda zombie (Hell)
  5 shadow demons (Pan)
  37 deep trolls
  2 entropy weaver zombies (Crypt:1)
  A death drake (Zot:1)
  2 unseen horrors (shapeshifter)
  9 naga ritualists
  10 swamp dragons
  A kraken simulacrum (Hell)
  2 unseen horrors
  3 spriggan druids
  3 golden dragon skeletons
  6 glowing orange brains
  3 infernal demonspawn (Pan)
  An anaconda skeleton (Hell)
  24 deep elf archers
  A sea snake (shapeshifter) (Zot:2)
  5 torturous demonspawn (Pan)
  16 phantasmal warriors
  5 shambling mangroves
  6 wizards
  8 harpies
  A sphinx zombie (Hell)
  11 mana vipers
  23 ironbrand convokers
  2 lindwurms
  5 oklob plants
  A wolf spider zombie (Hell)
  15 necromancers
  An iron dragon zombie (Hell)
  An orb spider (shapeshifter) (Elf:3)
  4 wolf spiders
  68 deep elf magi
  5 orc sorcerers
  13 salamanders
  A fire giant zombie (Hell)
  2 shadow dragon skeletons (Depths:2)
  20 orc knights
  4 manticores
  A sphinx skeleton (Depths:2)
  8 cyclopes
  2 human zombies
  50 ugly things
  An iron dragon skeleton (Depths:2)
  A shining eye (shapeshifter) (Depths:2)
  3 frost giant zombies
  2 fire giant skeletons (Depths:2)
  A frost giant skeleton (Depths:2)
  34 moths of wrath
  2 salamanders (shapeshifter)
  A cyclops (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  3 worldbinders
  9 vault sentinels
  An ice statue (IceCv)
  3 stone giant skeletons
  15 elephants
  11 rust devils
  47 black mambas
  Maurice (Orc:1)
  3 eyes of devastation (Depths:3)
  2 spriggan zombies
  33 smoke demons
  29 naga magi
  3 apocalypse crabs
  A molten gargoyle (Hell)
  Joseph (D:8)
  3 guardian serpents
  2 gargoyles
  2 torpor snails (Lair:6)
  10 orange demons
  16 spiny frogs
  A storm dragon simulacrum (Depths:4)
  A spiny frog (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4)
  31 freezing wraiths
  4 rime drakes
  A komodo dragon (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
  3 efreet (Abyss:3)
  10 demonic crawlers
  A white draconian zombie (Crypt:2)
  A rime drake (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  22 hellions
  4 hydra zombies (Hell)
  A black draconian skeleton (Crypt:1)
  11 ice devils
  5 tengu conjurers
  4 anaconda simulacra (IceCv)
  2 yaktaur skeletons (Vaults:4)
  3 hellwings
  71 yaktaurs
  2 yaktaurs (shapeshifter)
  52 guardian mummies
  A tormentor (Pan)
  6 spriggan skeletons (Depths:2)
  12 komodo dragons
  7 ancient zymes (Abyss:3)
  18 red devils
  A red draconian skeleton (Crypt:2)
  2 golden dragon simulacra (IceCv)
  A meliai (Vaults:1)
  4 tyrant leeches
  2 wolf spider simulacra
  16 trolls
  A troll (shapeshifter) (Depths:3)
  9 wind drakes (WizLab)
  A jumping spider (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  2 merfolk (shapeshifter)
  A polar bear (Lair:3)
  Grinder (D:5)
  2 hornets (shapeshifter)
  73 slime creatures
  13 hippogriffs
  20 hornets
  A meliai zombie (D:14)
  Prince Ribbit (D:8)
  25 blink frogs
  An ettin zombie (Hell)
  2 snapping turtles (shapeshifter)
  4 bog bodies
  16 raiju
  29 large abominations
  55 starcursed masses
  13 dream sheep
  An ice dragon zombie (Hell)
  An iron dragon simulacrum (Crypt:2)
  44 air elementals
  8 spriggans
  7 shadows
  A spriggan (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  2 fire dragon skeletons
  106 flying skulls
  A redback (shapeshifter) (Abyss:3)
  5 redbacks
  15 wraiths
  5 dire elephant simulacra (IceCv)
  3 vampires
  14 ynoxinuls
  7 ettin skeletons
  A human (shapeshifter) (Vaults:1)
  A wyvern (shapeshifter) (Depths:3)
  A black mamba skeleton (Tomb:3)
  A tarantella (Vaults:4)
  8 water elementals
  49 yaks
  4 wyverns
  2 hogs
  5 basilisks
  14 ushabtiu
  28 vampire mosquitoes
  9 fire bats
  2 steam dragons
  5 fire elementals
  3 golden eyes (Depths:3)
  A steam dragon (shapeshifter) (Depths:2)
  12 chaos spawn
  15 small abominations
  5 neqoxecs
  11 wargs
  3 harpy simulacra
  A gelid demonspawn zombie (Crypt:1)
  A swamp worm (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5)
  18 swamp worms
  17 insubstantial wisps
  2 elf skeletons (Depths:2)
  22 water moccasins
  65 nagas
  3 acid dragons
  An iron troll simulacrum (IceCv)
  13 hell hounds
  A soldier ant (D:13)
  An infernal demonspawn skeleton (Crypt:2)
  Duvessa (D:4)
  3 floating eyes
  9 porcupines
  3 hydra simulacra
  2 tengu skeletons
  A hornet zombie (D:15)
  A spiny frog skeleton (Hell)
  68 orc warriors
  3 floating eyes (shapeshifter)
  4 ice beasts
  22 swamp drakes
  An eye of draining (D:10)
  2 eyes of draining (shapeshifter)
  A black bear (Lair:2)
  5 necrophages
  3 phantoms
  2 ettin simulacra (IceCv)
  57 ogres
  6 boggarts
  2 sky beasts
  2 tengu (shapeshifter)
  A hog zombie (Crypt:1)
  12 wolves
  54 centaurs
  A manticore skeleton (Hell)
  24 crocodiles
  2 big kobolds
  A hog skeleton (Crypt:1)
  A yaktaur zombie (Crypt:2)
  A wyvern zombie (D:15)
  21 bullfrogs
  2 earth elementals (Elf:3)
  A hippogriff skeleton (Crypt:2)
  A komodo dragon skeleton (Crypt:1)
  Dowan (D:4)
  A wyvern skeleton (D:13)
  8 scorpions
  A tengu zombie (Hell)
  33 wights
  A yak skeleton (Crypt:1)
  3 human simulacra
  8 howler monkeys
  2 electric eels
  12 crimson imps
  6 centaur zombies
  7 jellies
  A bullfrog zombie (D:10)
  2 draconian simulacra (IceCv)
  10 hounds
  38 orc priests
  3 quasits
  Crazy Yiuf (D:7)
  6 bullfrog skeletons
  10 centaur skeletons
  A gnoll shaman (D:9)
  5 iron imps
  A human skeleton (Hell)
  4 iguanas
  42 orc wizards
  17 worker ants
  A porcupine skeleton (Crypt:1)
  3 killer bee zombies
  6 troll simulacra
  3 centaur simulacra
  45 mummies
  3 hound skeletons
  2 hound zombies
  2 worker ant zombies
  10 gnolls
  3 ogre simulacra (IceCv)
  11 adders
  6 shadow imps
  5 white imps
  11 ufetubi
  4 oozes
  5 adder zombies
  3 adder skeletons
  6 worms
  A barachi skeleton (Crypt:1)
  4 dart slugs
  3 leopard geckos
  175 orcs
  7 giant cockroaches
  7 goblins
  7 hobgoblins
  21 jackals
  17 kobolds
  5 quokkas
  11 bats
  4 frilled lizards
  A hobgoblin skeleton (Crypt:2)
  An orc zombie (Tomb:1)
  6 rats
  6 bushes
  A lurking horror (Abyss:3)
  9 plants
  2 starspawn tentacles (Abyss:3)
  2 tentacles (Abyss:3)
4147 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A sphinx (Tomb:1)
  An orc warlord (Orc:2)
  A warmonger (Pan)
  A reaper (Pan)
  An ironheart preserver (Vaults:4)
  A blood saint (Pan)
  A corrupter (Pan)
  3 spark wasps (Depths:5)
  A fire dragon (Depths:1)
  The ghost of Mopload the Geomancer, a journeyman GrEE of Vehumet (Lair:1)
  A naga sharpshooter (Snake:4)
  A sun demon (Pan)
  A glowing orange brain (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4)
  An infernal demonspawn (Pan)
  An orc knight (Vaults:4)
  2 deep elf magi (Vaults:4)
  A komodo dragon (Lair:3)
  A guardian mummy (Tomb:1)
  A flying skull (Tomb:3)
  A fire giant simulacrum (Tomb:3)
  3 orc warriors (Orc:2)
  A swamp dragon zombie (Tomb:3)
  A crocodile (Lair:3)
  6 mummies
  6 orcs
40 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A sphinx (Tomb:1)
  A revenant (Tomb:2)
  A purple draconian (Zot:4)
  A yellow draconian (Zot:5)
  A jiangshi (Crypt:3)
  A quicksilver dragon skeleton (Tomb:2)
  2 two-headed ogres (Volcano)
  12 death scarabs
  5 skeletal warriors
  A storm dragon skeleton (Tomb:2)
  A fire giant zombie (Crypt:2)
  2 yaktaurs
  A slime creature (Vaults:1)
  9 flying skulls
  An ettin skeleton (Tomb:2)
  A redback (Vaults:5)
  A fire bat (Pan)
  3 humans (Swamp:1)
  A small abomination (Abyss:3)
  An acid dragon (Zot:1)
  3 centaurs
  2 mummies
  A goblin (D:3)
  A bush (Lair:6)
  137 fire vortices
  42 fungi
  22 plants
  18 starspawn tentacles
  12 tentacles
285 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 4472 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Fiegiw the Gargoyle Earth Elementalist began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 3/3
   120 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 0/5
   398 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 5/7
   422 | D:1      | Learned a level 3 spell: Stone Arrow
   985 | D:2      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
   986 | D:2      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  1125 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations
  1180 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 21/24 MP: 5/8
  1986 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Earth Magic
  1986 | D:2      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 4/9
  2388 | D:3      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  2445 | D:3      | Found a hazy altar of Hepliaklqana.
  2656 | D:3      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  3204 | D:3      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  3242 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 23/32 MP: 0/11
  3631 | D:3      | Noticed an angel
  3809 | D:4      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  4187 | D:4      | Noticed Duvessa
  4715 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4816 | D:5      | Got a translucent rapier
  4817 | D:5      | Identified the +9 rapier of the Vanishing Gods {antimagic, rF++ Str-5 Stlth+} (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)
  4890 | D:5      | Noticed a phantom
  4903 | D:5      | Noticed a phantom
  4984 | D:5      | Killed a phantom
  4984 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
  4984 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 38/38 MP: 5/12
  4993 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
  5078 | D:5      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  5674 | D:5      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  5674 | D:5      | Noticed Grinder
  5787 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 45/45 MP: 4/14
  5805 | D:5      | Paralysed by Grinder for 6 turns
  5818 | D:5      | Killed Grinder
  6314 | D:6      | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
  6433 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  6438 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  6602 | D:6      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  6897 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
  6957 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  7099 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  7099 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 45/52 MP: 9/16
  7152 | D:6      | Learned a level 5 spell: Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
  9726 | D:7      | Found a runed door.
  9730 | D:7      | Noticed Crazy Yiuf
  9732 | D:7      | Killed Crazy Yiuf
 10217 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 10423 | D:8      | Noticed Prince Ribbit
 10447 | D:8      | Killed Prince Ribbit
 10447 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 59/59 MP: 7/18
 11575 | D:8      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 11582 | D:8      | Killed a two-headed ogre
 11789 | D:8      | Noticed Joseph
 12289 | D:9      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 13008 | D:9      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
 13119 | D:9      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
 13125 | D:9      | Became a worshipper of Vehumet
 13140 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 13447 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 13682 | D:4      | Killed Duvessa
 13682 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
 13741 | D:4      | Noticed Dowan
 13744 | D:4      | Killed Dowan
 13961 | D:4      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
 14176 | D:4      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
 14336 | D:9      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 65/65 MP: 20/20
 14418 | D:10     | Reached * piety under Vehumet
 14418 | D:10     | Offered knowledge of Flame Tongue by Vehumet.
 14431 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic
 15355 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 15365 | D:10     | Found Zodigrio's Antique Weapon Shoppe.
 15938 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 16098 | Lair:1   | Reached ** piety under Vehumet
 16098 | Lair:1   | Offered knowledge of Freeze by Vehumet.
 16586 | Lair:1   | Noticed Esadd's ghost (journeyman GrEE)
 16590 | Lair:1   | Noticed Fannar
 16611 | Lair:1   | Killed Esadd's ghost
 16615 | Lair:1   | Killed Fannar
 16615 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 10 in Earth Magic
 16615 | Lair:1   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 63/72 MP: 5/23
 16892 | Lair:1   | Noticed Mopload's ghost (journeyman GrEE)
 17250 | Lair:1   | Killed Mopload's ghost
 17544 | Lair:2   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 17945 | Lair:2   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 18466 | Lair:2   | Offered knowledge of Throw Flame by Vehumet.
 19167 | Lair:2   | Killed a five-headed hydra
 19336 | Lair:2   | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 19336 | Lair:2   | Identified Fiegiw's Guide on Helpful Attacks (You acquired it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)
 20283 | Lair:3   | Noticed a four-headed hydra
 20304 | Lair:3   | Killed a four-headed hydra
 20304 | Lair:3   | Reached *** piety under Vehumet
 20593 | Lair:3   | Noticed a six-headed hydra
 20605 | Lair:3   | Killed a six-headed hydra
 20610 | Lair:3   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 79/79 MP: 7/25
 21203 | Lair:3   | Offered knowledge of Inner Flame by Vehumet.
 21305 | Lair:3   | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
 21385 | Lair:3   | Noticed Vuqoligg's ghost (journeyman GrEE)
 21394 | Lair:3   | Killed Vuqoligg's ghost
 22123 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 22129 | Lair:4   | Found a dark tunnel.
 22135 | Volcano  | Entered a volcano
 23235 | Lair:4   | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
 23563 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
 24308 | Lair:4   | Learned a level 2 spell: Swiftness
 24323 | Lair:4   | Reached **** piety under Vehumet
 24706 | Lair:3   | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Magma by Vehumet.
 24713 | Lair:3   | Learned a level 5 spell: Bolt of Magma
 25341 | Lair:5   | Identified the Collected Works on Supportive Enchantment (You acquired it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)
 25622 | Lair:5   | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 25622 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 26144 | Lair:6   | Entered Level 6 of the Lair of Beasts
 26161 | Lair:6   | Gained mutation: Your large and strong wings let you fly indefinitely. [Gargoyle growth]
 26161 | Lair:6   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 48/87 MP: 9/27
 26929 | Lair:6   | Reached ***** piety under Vehumet
 27012 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 27023 | Lair:6   | Offered knowledge of Spellforged Servitor by Vehumet.
 28413 | Lair:6   | Noticed a dire elephant
 28736 | Lair:6   | Killed a dire elephant
 30227 | Lair:6   | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
 30232 | Lair:6   | Found a gateway to Hell.
 30241 | Lair:6   | Got a dazzling helmet
 30252 | Lair:6   | Identified the +4 helmet "Boyp" {MR+} (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)
 30651 | D:8      | Killed Joseph
 31830 | D:11     | Reached XP level 15. HP: 93/93 MP: 6/28
 32073 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 32184 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 32408 | Orc:1    | Offered knowledge of Iskenderun's Battlesphere by Vehumet.
 32530 | Orc:1    | Noticed Maurice
 32540 | Orc:1    | Killed Maurice
 32680 | Orc:1    | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
 32893 | Orc:1    | Noticed Urug
 32917 | Orc:1    | Killed Urug
 33203 | Orc:1    | Found Kuh Ter's Antique Armour Emporium.
 33272 | Orc:2    | Entered Level 2 of the Orcish Mines
 34126 | Orc:2    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 34939 | Orc:2    | Found Zuriac's Food Emporium.
 34951 | Orc:2    | Found Xoisu's Distillery.
 35437 | Orc:2    | Identified the Collected Works on Envenoming and Flight
 35825 | Orc:2    | Got a brightly glowing dagger {freeze}
 35899 | Orc:2    | Paralysed by an orc sorcerer for 6 turns
 35953 | Orc:2    | Identified the +8 dagger of Valour {freeze, rElec rC+ Int+4} (You took it off an orc on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)
 36058 | Orc:2    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 36312 | Orc:2    | Noticed an orc warlord
 36324 | Orc:2    | Killed an orc warlord
 36429 | Orc:2    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 36469 | Orc:2    | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Cold by Vehumet.
 36712 | Orc:2    | Found Voschi's Assorted Antiques.
 37187 | Orc:2    | Found Hanuy's Antique Armour Shoppe.
 37500 | Orc:1    | Bought a pair of embroidered gloves for 180 gold pieces
 37600 | Orc:2    | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 125 gold pieces
 37600 | Orc:2    | Bought a scroll of teleportation for 75 gold pieces
 37773 | Orc:2    | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 80 gold pieces
 37773 | Orc:2    | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 80 gold pieces
 38131 | Elf:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls
 38379 | Elf:1    | Reached skill level 10 in Fire Magic
 39314 | Elf:1    | Got a bloodstained shortbow
 39315 | Elf:1    | Identified the +6 shortbow "Jedioz" {venom, Str+2} (You found it on level 1 of the Elven Halls)
 39542 | Elf:1    | Found Soily's Gadget Emporium.
 39929 | Elf:1    | Reached XP level 16. HP: 90/100 MP: 8/30
 40961 | Elf:2    | Offered knowledge of Iron Shot by Vehumet.
 41097 | Elf:2    | Learned a level 6 spell: Iron Shot
 41718 | Elf:2    | Found a huge runed gate.
 41718 | Elf:2    | Found a huge runed gate.
 41719 | Elf:2    | Found a huge runed gate.
 41748 | Elf:2    | Found a huge runed gate.
 41751 | Elf:2    | Found a huge runed gate.
 41763 | Elf:2    | Reached skill level 10 in Evocations
 41860 | Elf:2    | Found Emucw's Magic Scroll Shoppe.
 42814 | Swamp:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Swamp
 42814 | Swamp:1  | Noticed Frances
 42827 | Swamp:1  | Killed Frances
 42897 | Swamp:1  | Noticed Kirke
 43059 | Swamp:1  | Killed Kirke
 45424 | Swamp:2  | Offered knowledge of Poison Arrow by Vehumet.
 46206 | Swamp:2  | Got a brightly glowing hand axe
 46207 | Swamp:2  | Identified the +0 hand axe "Sineles" {holy, rF- Str+2 Dex+7} (You found it on level 2 of the Swamp)
 46655 | Swamp:2  | Reached XP level 17. HP: 106/106 MP: 32/32
 46749 | Swamp:2  | Got a slimy pewter amulet
 46750 | Swamp:2  | Identified the amulet of Faxzum {Spirit +Fly rF+} (You found it on level 2 of the Swamp)
 47633 | Swamp:3  | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 48169 | Snake:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Snake Pit
 51012 | Snake:2  | Offered knowledge of Ozocubu's Refrigeration by Vehumet.
 52274 | Snake:2  | Reached skill level 15 in Earth Magic
 52281 | Snake:2  | HP: 4/108 [shock serpent/electric aura (5)]
 52908 | Snake:2  | Got a shimmering robe
 52919 | Snake:2  | Identified the cursed +0 robe of the Hart {rF+} (You found it on level 2 of the Snake Pit)
 53512 | Snake:3  | Reached XP level 18. HP: 97/113 MP: 33/33
 54145 | Snake:3  | Found a frozen archway.
 54149 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 55333 | IceCv    | Offered knowledge of Orb of Destruction by Vehumet.
 55693 | IceCv    | Noticed an Ice Fiend
 55707 | IceCv    | Killed an Ice Fiend
 55911 | IceCv    | Identified the Reference Book on the Dark Glacier
 55914 | IceCv    | Got a translucent hat
 56023 | IceCv    | Identified the cursed +0 hat of the Sky {rPois Int+3 Stlth-} (You found it in an ice cave)
 56537 | D:12     | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
 59796 | D:14     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 60320 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 60352 | D:15     | Reached ****** piety under Vehumet
 60479 | D:14     | Offered knowledge of Lehudib's Crystal Spear by Vehumet.
 60479 | D:14     | Offered knowledge of Chain Lightning by Vehumet.
 60479 | D:14     | Offered knowledge of Ignition by Vehumet.
 60544 | D:14     | Learned a level 8 spell: Lehudib's Crystal Spear
 61525 | D:15     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 62363 | D:15     | Reached XP level 19. HP: 120/120 MP: 35/35
 63674 | Swamp:4  | Entered Level 4 of the Swamp
 64961 | Swamp:4  | Reached skill level 15 in Conjurations
 65461 | Swamp:4  | Got a decaying rune of Zot
 66085 | Snake:3  | Noticed Asterion
 67153 | Snake:3  | Killed Asterion
 67467 | Snake:3  | Found Oneytef's Gadget Shop.
 67473 | Snake:3  | Found Toamic's Gadget Boutique.
 67780 | Snake:4  | Entered Level 4 of the Snake Pit
 68651 | Snake:4  | Noticed Vashnia
 68658 | Snake:4  | Killed Vashnia
 70077 | Snake:3  | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
 70091 | Snake:3  | Reached XP level 20. HP: 128/129 MP: 16/36
 72082 | Snake:4  | Got a serpentine rune of Zot
 72987 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
 73478 | Vaults:1 | Got an encrusted trident
 73479 | Vaults:1 | Identified the cursed +3 trident "Giantslayer" {vamp, MR+ Str+2} (You found it on level 1 of the Vaults)
 73521 | Vaults:1 | Found Voimeff's Magic Scroll Boutique.
 73617 | Vaults:1 | Found Farhaita's Distillery.
 73623 | Vaults:1 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 95 gold pieces
 73623 | Vaults:1 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 95 gold pieces
 73623 | Vaults:1 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 95 gold pieces
 73623 | Vaults:1 | Bought 2 potions of heal wounds for 190 gold pieces
 74327 | Vaults:1 | Noticed Nikola
 74479 | Vaults:1 | Killed Nikola
 75046 | Vaults:1 | Found Wien Hyn's Antique Armour Shoppe.
 75061 | Vaults:1 | Found Sitasomo's Magic Scroll Shop.
 75935 | Vaults:1 | Found Qaifatysm's Food Boutique.
 77170 | Vaults:2 | Reached XP level 21. HP: 136/136 MP: 11/37
 77787 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 15 in Fire Magic
 78065 | Vaults:2 | Found a staircase to the Crypt.
 81477 | Vaults:3 | Noticed Jory
 81503 | Vaults:3 | HP: 5/138 [crystal guardian/crystal bolt (17)]
 81527 | Vaults:3 | Noticed Donald
 81836 | Vaults:3 | Paralysed by a great orb of eyes for 6 turns
 82700 | Vaults:3 | Killed Donald
 83711 | Vaults:3 | Reached XP level 22. HP: 106/144 MP: 38/38
 84105 | Vaults:3 | Killed Jory
 88331 | Vaults:4 | Found a portal to a secret trove of treasure.
 88334 | Vaults:4 | Found Liud's Food Emporium.
 88770 | Vaults:4 | Reached XP level 23. HP: 85/152 MP: 39/39
 88990 | Vaults:4 | Got a clouded marble ring
 88992 | Vaults:4 | Identified the ring of the Water Diviner {MP-9 AC+1 Dex+7} (You found it on level 4 of the Vaults)
 89592 | Depths:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Depths
 89704 | Depths:1 | Found Fitis's Antique Weapon Emporium.
 89833 | Depths:1 | Bought the +3 Elemental Staff {rElec rF++ rC++ MR++ AC+5} for 3036 gold pieces
 90954 | Depths:1 | Found a one-way gate leading to the halls of Pandemonium.
 94237 | Depths:2 | Found a gateway to a ziggurat.
 94398 | Depths:2 | Found a magical portal.
 94407 | WizLab   | Entered The Chambers of the Cloud Mage
 95901 | WizLab   | Identified the Grimoire of the Dolphin
 95912 | WizLab   | Identified the Tome of the Wild Haggis
 97231 | Depths:2 | Got an ancient silver ring
 97265 | Depths:2 | Reached XP level 24. HP: 160/160 MP: 40/40
 98060 | Depths:2 | Found Exic's Magic Scroll Shop.
100199 | Depths:3 | Identified the ring "Tagyeh" {rPois rC+ MR+ Slay+1} (You took it off a skeletal warrior on level 2 of the Depths)
101762 | Depths:3 | Got a crude iron amulet
101763 | Depths:3 | Identified the amulet "Layst" {Regen+ Str+4} (You found it on level 3 of the Depths)
102909 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 8 spell: Ignition
103619 | Depths:4 | Reached XP level 25. HP: 163/167 MP: 26/41
104248 | Depths:4 | Found a one-way gate to the infinite horrors of the Abyss.
105565 | Depths:4 | Got a crude hand axe
105622 | Depths:4 | Identified the +9 hand axe "Xyoc Ula" {pain, +Fly MR++} (You found it on level 4 of the Depths)
107136 | Depths:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Depths
107838 | Depths:5 | Found a gate to the Realm of Zot.
108441 | Vaults:4 | You paid a toll of +2 shadow dragon scales to enter a treasure trove
108442 | Trove    | Entered a treasure trove
108478 | Trove    | Identified Sif Muna's Volume of Lethal Clay (You found it in a treasure trove)
108497 | Trove    | Identified Sif Muna's Tome of Combat Magic
108517 | Trove    | Identified Sif Muna's Guide on Conjuration
108895 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 9 spell: Shatter
108917 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 9 spell: Fire Storm
109887 | Depths:5 | Noticed Mennas
109893 | Depths:5 | Killed Mennas
109893 | Depths:5 | Reached XP level 26. HP: 138/174 MP: 11/41
110238 | Depths:5 | Reached skill level 15 in Spellcasting
110843 | Depths:5 | Noticed Margery
110915 | Depths:5 | Killed Margery
111589 | Elf:3    | Entered Level 3 of the Elven Halls
113873 | Elf:3    | Identified Cuigeak's Guide on the Dusty Arsonist
114424 | Elf:3    | Learned a level 3 spell: Regeneration
114425 | Elf:3    | Got a warped hand crossbow
114426 | Elf:3    | Identified the +10 hand crossbow "Bih Mil" {freeze, Str+3} (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)
114451 | Elf:3    | Identified Lap Pium's Grimoire of Talismans and Poison
117642 | Vaults:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Vaults
117644 | Vaults:5 | Reached XP level 27. HP: 181/181 MP: 42/42
119529 | Vaults:5 | Got a scorched flail
119531 | Vaults:5 | Identified the cursed +3 flail "Kusopi" {venom, rN+ Str+4 Int+4 Dex+2} (You found it on level 5 of the Vaults)
120956 | Vaults:5 | Found Nathrautut's Gadget Shop.
121204 | Vaults:5 | Got a silver rune of Zot
121401 | Vaults:5 | Got a steaming robe
121402 | Vaults:5 | Identified the +2 robe "Jeloh" {Int+3} (You took it off a deep elf mage on level 5 of the Vaults)
122290 | D:3      | Fell from the grace of Vehumet
122290 | D:3      | Became a worshipper of the Shining One
122688 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 8 spell: Controlled Blink
122921 | Crypt:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Crypt
123035 | Crypt:1  | Reached * piety under the Shining One
123441 | Crypt:1  | Reached ** piety under the Shining One
124025 | Crypt:2  | Reached skill level 1 in Translocations
124038 | Crypt:2  | Reached *** piety under the Shining One
124229 | Crypt:2  | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
124250 | Crypt:2  | Reached **** piety under the Shining One
124551 | Crypt:2  | Reached ***** piety under the Shining One
125388 | Crypt:3  | Entered Level 3 of the Crypt
125391 | Crypt:3  | Noticed Sojobo
125396 | Crypt:3  | Killed Sojobo
125506 | Crypt:3  | Reached ****** piety under the Shining One
125752 | Crypt:3  | Noticed Jorgrun
125757 | Crypt:3  | Killed Jorgrun
125865 | Crypt:3  | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
127212 | Crypt:3  | Was forgiven by Vehumet
127897 | Crypt:3  | Found a staircase to the Tomb.
128522 | Depths:2 | Bought a scroll of acquirement for 1144 gold pieces
128523 | Depths:2 | Got a warped jade amulet
128524 | Depths:2 | Identified the amulet of Iphyoci {RegenMP rF+ rN+ Dex-4} (You acquired it on level 2 of the Depths)
128688 | Vaults:1 | Bought a potion of curing for 57 gold pieces
128688 | Vaults:1 | Bought a potion of haste for 190 gold pieces
128688 | Vaults:1 | Bought a potion of curing for 57 gold pieces
128765 | Vaults:1 | Bought a meat ration for 50 gold pieces
128765 | Vaults:1 | Bought a meat ration for 50 gold pieces
128765 | Vaults:1 | Bought a meat ration for 50 gold pieces
128765 | Vaults:1 | Bought a meat ration for 50 gold pieces
128765 | Vaults:1 | Bought a royal jelly for 20 gold pieces
128765 | Vaults:1 | Bought a bread ration for 50 gold pieces
128765 | Vaults:1 | Bought a bread ration for 50 gold pieces
128765 | Vaults:1 | Bought a royal jelly for 20 gold pieces
128765 | Vaults:1 | Bought a bread ration for 50 gold pieces
128765 | Vaults:1 | Bought a bread ration for 50 gold pieces
128765 | Vaults:1 | Bought 3 fruits for 45 gold pieces
128895 | Vaults:4 | Cast into level 2 of the Abyss (death knight)
128958 | Abyss:2  | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
129226 | Vaults:4 | Escaped the Abyss
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a royal jelly for 26 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought 3 fruits for 58 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a bread ration for 65 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a royal jelly for 26 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a meat ration for 65 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a bread ration for 65 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a bread ration for 65 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a bread ration for 65 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a bread ration for 65 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a royal jelly for 26 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a royal jelly for 26 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a royal jelly for 26 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a bread ration for 65 gold pieces
129327 | Vaults:4 | Bought a meat ration for 65 gold pieces
129686 | Zot:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Realm of Zot
129939 | Zot:1    | Noticed an orb of fire
129945 | Zot:1    | Killed an orb of fire
131261 | Zot:1    | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
133376 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 6 spell: Iron Shot
133380 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
133385 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 4 spell: Sticky Flame
134288 | Zot:2    | Noticed an orb of fire
134289 | Zot:2    | Gained mutation: Armour fits poorly on your strangely shaped body. [an orb of fire]
134293 | Zot:2    | Killed an orb of fire
138489 | Zot:4    | Reached skill level 15 in Evocations
138864 | Zot:5    | Entered Level 5 of the Realm of Zot
139842 | Zot:5    | Noticed an ancient lich
140133 | Zot:5    | Killed an ancient lich
140227 | Zot:5    | Reached skill level 10 in Invocations
140506 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
140509 | Zot:5    | Gained mutation: You have large cloven feet. [an orb of fire]
140510 | Zot:5    | Killed an orb of fire
140756 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
140761 | Zot:5    | Killed an orb of fire
140941 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
140946 | Zot:5    | Killed an orb of fire
141552 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
141560 | Zot:5    | Gained mutation: You are occasionally teleported next to monsters. [an orb of fire]
141561 | Zot:5    | Killed an orb of fire
142160 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: Armour fits poorly on your strangely shaped body. [potion of mutation]
142160 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: You are occasionally teleported next to monsters. [potion of mutation]
142160 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: Your body sometimes deteriorates upon taking damage. [potion of mutation]
142160 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: Your natural rate of healing is unusually fast. [potion of mutation]
142161 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: Your body sometimes deteriorates upon taking damage. [potion of mutation]
142161 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: You have large cloven feet. [potion of mutation]
142161 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: Your natural rate of healing is unusually fast. [potion of mutation]
142161 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: Your muscles are strong. (Str +2) [potion of mutation]
142161 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: You passively map a small area around you. [potion of mutation]
142161 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in molten scales. (AC +2) [potion of mutation]
142599 | Zot:5    | Noticed an ancient lich
142601 | Zot:5    | Killed an ancient lich
143402 | Zot:5    | Noticed an ancient lich
143405 | Zot:5    | Killed an ancient lich
143468 | Zot:5    | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
144033 | Hell     | Entered the Vestibule of Hell
144033 | Hell     | Noticed Geryon
144039 | Hell     | Killed Geryon
144273 | Hell     | Noticed Murray
144273 | Hell     | Killed Murray
144413 | Hell     | Reached skill level 10 in Translocations
144902 | Hell     | Found a gateway to the Iron City of Dis.
145227 | Hell     | Found a gateway to the freezing wastes of Cocytus.
145403 | Hell     | Found a gateway to the ashen valley of Gehenna.
145529 | Hell     | Found a gateway to the decaying netherworld of Tartarus.
145866 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 7 spell: Ring of Flames
146414 | Depths:4 | Voluntarily entered the Abyss.
146416 | Abyss:1  | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
146507 | Abyss:2  | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
146752 | Abyss:2  | Lost mutation: Your muscles are strong. (Str +2) [a neqoxec]
147122 | Abyss:3  | Paralysed by accursed screaming for 1 turns
147127 | Abyss:3  | Paralysed by accursed screaming for 1 turns
147247 | Abyss:3  | Noticed an ancient lich
147250 | Abyss:3  | Killed an ancient lich
147694 | Abyss:3  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
147719 | Abyss:3  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
148055 | Abyss:3  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
148141 | Abyss:3  | Got an abyssal rune of Zot
148194 | Depths:4 | Escaped the Abyss
148802 | Hell     | Learned a level 9 spell: Glaciate
149260 | Tomb:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Tomb of the Ancients
150189 | Tomb:1   | Noticed a greater mummy
150197 | Tomb:1   | Killed a greater mummy
150208 | Tomb:1   | Noticed a greater mummy
150216 | Tomb:1   | Killed a greater mummy
150339 | Tomb:1   | Noticed a greater mummy
150354 | Tomb:1   | Killed a greater mummy
151104 | Tomb:1   | Got a smoking rapier {pierce}
151105 | Tomb:1   | Identified the +10 rapier "Ihuruuta" {pierce, rPois Int+4} (You took it off a guardian mummy on level 1 of the Tomb of the Ancients)
151538 | Tomb:1   | Noticed a greater mummy
151544 | Tomb:1   | Killed a greater mummy
151548 | Tomb:1   | Noticed a greater mummy
151551 | Tomb:1   | Killed a greater mummy
151880 | Tomb:1   | Noticed a greater mummy
151886 | Tomb:1   | Killed a greater mummy
151950 | Tomb:1   | Noticed a greater mummy
151959 | Tomb:1   | Killed a greater mummy
152207 | Tomb:1   | Noticed a greater mummy
152212 | Tomb:1   | Killed a greater mummy
152672 | Tomb:2   | Noticed Khufu
152675 | Tomb:2   | Noticed a greater mummy
152675 | Tomb:2   | Killed Khufu
152677 | Tomb:2   | Killed a greater mummy
152678 | Tomb:2   | Noticed a greater mummy
152692 | Tomb:2   | Noticed an ancient lich
152696 | Tomb:2   | Killed a greater mummy
152697 | Tomb:2   | Noticed a greater mummy
152819 | Tomb:2   | Noticed a greater mummy
152826 | Tomb:2   | Killed an ancient lich
152826 | Tomb:2   | Killed a greater mummy
152828 | Tomb:2   | Killed a greater mummy
153040 | Tomb:2   | Noticed Frederick
153045 | Tomb:2   | Killed Frederick
153268 | Tomb:2   | Noticed a greater mummy
153271 | Tomb:2   | Killed a greater mummy
153491 | Tomb:3   | Entered Level 3 of the Tomb of the Ancients
153542 | Tomb:3   | Noticed a greater mummy
153546 | Tomb:3   | Killed a greater mummy
153548 | Tomb:3   | Noticed a greater mummy
153549 | Tomb:3   | Noticed a greater mummy
153550 | Tomb:3   | Noticed a greater mummy
153550 | Tomb:3   | Noticed a greater mummy
153553 | Tomb:3   | Noticed a greater mummy
153553 | Tomb:3   | Killed a greater mummy
153553 | Tomb:3   | Killed a greater mummy
153553 | Tomb:3   | Killed a greater mummy
153554 | Tomb:3   | Killed a greater mummy
153556 | Tomb:3   | Noticed a greater mummy
153556 | Tomb:3   | Noticed a greater mummy
153556 | Tomb:3   | Killed a greater mummy
153557 | Tomb:3   | Killed a greater mummy
153557 | Tomb:3   | Killed a greater mummy
153558 | Tomb:3   | Noticed a greater mummy
153561 | Tomb:3   | Killed a greater mummy
153865 | Tomb:3   | Got an ancient whip
153866 | Tomb:3   | Identified the +11 whip "Oteluruj" {slash, rC++ Str+3} (You found it on level 3 of the Tomb of the Ancients)
153956 | Tomb:3   | Identified Itzoneof's Catalogue of Ensnaring Black Secrets
153982 | Tomb:3   | Got a brightly glowing marble ring
153983 | Tomb:3   | Identified the ring of the Vanishing Eyes {+Inv rElec rN+ SInv} (You found it on level 3 of the Tomb of the Ancients)
154069 | Tomb:3   | Got a golden rune of Zot
154764 | Depths:2 | Bought a scroll of holy word for 165 gold pieces
154764 | Depths:2 | Bought a scroll of recharging for 209 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a meat ration for 55 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a royal jelly for 22 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a fruit for 16 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a fruit for 16 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a meat ration for 55 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a bread ration for 55 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a royal jelly for 22 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a bread ration for 55 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a meat ration for 55 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a bread ration for 55 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a royal jelly for 22 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a royal jelly for 22 gold pieces
154964 | Orc:2    | Bought a meat ration for 55 gold pieces
155148 | Pan      | Entered Pandemonium
155157 | Pan      | Reached skill level 1 in Ice Magic
155330 | Pan      | Found an exit through the horrors of the Abyss.
156561 | Pan      | Reached skill level 5 in Ice Magic
156575 | Pan      | Noticed Xyeg the pandemonium lord
156584 | Pan      | Killed Xyeg the pandemonium lord
156662 | Pan      | Reached skill level 15 in Translocations
156809 | Pan      | Found an exit through the horrors of the Abyss.
158111 | Pan      | Noticed Lejeituwn the pandemonium lord
158576 | Pan      | Found an exit through the horrors of the Abyss.
159153 | Pan      | Killed Lejeituwn the pandemonium lord
159362 | Pan      | Identified the Papyrus of the Entourage and Stones
159376 | Pan      | Got a demonic rune of Zot
159393 | Pan      | Noticed Semmeet the pandemonium lord
159402 | Pan      | Killed Semmeet the pandemonium lord
159507 | Pan      | Was placed under penance by the Shining One
159616 | Pan      | Reached skill level 10 in Ice Magic
159929 | Pan      | Was forgiven by the Shining One
160179 | Pan      | Found an exit through the horrors of the Abyss.
160641 | Pan      | Noticed Viamn the pandemonium lord
160660 | Pan      | Collided with a tentacled monstrosity

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 |
---------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Earth Magic    |  4        5     6     7  8  9 10    11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21    22    25 | 25,1
Conjurations   |        1  2     3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13    14 15 16 17 18 19 20    21 25 | 25,2
Spellcasting   |        3           4  5     6  7  8  9    10 11    12             13 14    15 20 | 20,7
Fighting       |                 1  2  3  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12    13 15 16 17 18    19 20    25 | 25,5
Dodging        |                    2  3  4  5     6  7  8  9    10                      11    15 | 15,0
Evocations     |                    1  2  3  5  6  7     8  9 10 11                         12 15 | 15,0
Fire Magic     |                       1  3  4  6  7  8  9 10 11    12 13 14 15 16 17 18    19 23 | 23,8
Translocations |                                                                               15 | 15,0
Invocations    |                                                                               11 | 11,0
Ice Magic      |                                                                               10 | 10,8
Stealth        |                                                                                  |  2,1
Transmutations |                                                                                  |  0,7

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |    14 |    79 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    93
       Club              |       |   112 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||   112
       Staff             |       |       |   236 |    12 |    10 |    11 |       |   215 |  3413 ||  3897
       Double sword      |       |       |       |   132 |   306 |       |       |       |       ||   438
       Glaive            |       |       |       |       |    31 |       |       |       |       ||    31
       Dagger            |       |       |       |       |    27 |    32 |   104 |       |       ||   163
 Cast: Sandblast         |    35 |    50 |   102 |   116 |   177 |   190 |   188 |   345 |    29 ||  1232
       Stone Arrow       |       |    22 |    63 |   201 |   400 |   756 |   314 |   259 |    73 ||  2088
       Conjure Flame     |       |       |     6 |    21 |    32 |    21 |     1 |    43 |     9 ||   133
       Lee's Rapid Decon |       |       |     4 |    19 |   102 |   107 |   171 |   243 |   308 ||   954
       Blink             |       |       |       |     1 |     6 |     2 |       |       |     3 ||    12
       Bolt of Magma     |       |       |       |       |    75 |   197 |   311 |   315 |  1069 ||  1967
       Swiftness         |       |       |       |       |     1 |     5 |     9 |     4 |     1 ||    20
       Iron Shot         |       |       |       |       |       |    17 |    59 |    70 |   197 ||   343
       Lehudib's Crystal |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    34 ||    34
       Ignition          |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    31 ||    31
       Regeneration      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    23 ||    23
       Fire Storm        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    60 ||    60
       Shatter           |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    46 ||    46
       Ring of Flames    |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    33 ||    33
       Sticky Flame      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     6 ||     6
       Controlled Blink  |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
Invok: Cleansing Flame   |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
       Summon Divine War |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
 Abil: Fly               |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |     2 |     3 ||     6
       Stop Flying       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |     3 ||     5
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |     3 |    19 |    12 |     9 |    13 |     2 |    10 ||    68
       Lightning rod     |       |       |       |     4 |     4 |       |     3 |       |     1 ||    12
       Fan of gales      |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Phial of floods   |       |       |       |     1 |     2 |     1 |     4 |     4 |     3 ||    15
       Phantom mirror    |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Sack of spiders   |       |       |       |       |     3 |       |     1 |       |     1 ||     5
       Lamp of fire      |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |     7 |     3 |     9 ||    21
       Box of beasts     |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |       |       |     8 |    22 |    18 |     4 |     8 |     4 |    43 ||   107
       Potion            |       |       |       |       |     2 |     2 |     3 |     1 |    32 ||    40
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |     2 |       |     2 |       |       |       |       |       ||     4
       Confused          |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Distracted        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
  Eat: Chunk             |     1 |    12 |    17 |    24 |    65 |    30 |    34 |    54 |   109 ||   346
       Bread ration      |       |     1 |       |     3 |     4 |    17 |     5 |       |    16 ||    46
       Fruit             |       |       |     3 |     3 |     8 |     5 |     8 |     2 |    37 ||    66
       Royal jelly       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    12 |     7 |    21 ||    40
       Meat ration       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     4 |     1 ||     5
Armor: Robe              |     7 |    78 |    36 |   103 |   291 |   254 |   269 |   341 |  3049 ||  4428
Dodge: Dodged            |    13 |   105 |    56 |   178 |   558 |   372 |   444 |   438 |  4352 ||  6516
Block: Other             |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   122 |       ||   122
       Reflection        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     9 |       ||     9
Rpst.: Double sword      |       |       |       |    52 |   101 |       |       |       |       ||   153
Last edited by Jeoffrey Monk on Tuesday, 27th June 2017, 19:32, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Monday, 26th June 2017, 06:54

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Yes, Pan can be very frustrating when you visit it for the first time.
You didn't have amazing defenses (AC 40 is pretty low for Gr) and I don't see why you thought you didn't need scroll of blinking at 37 HP. Panlords can cast Airstrike, Iron Shot, Glaciate, probably LCS too, that's a lot of ways to die for flying Gr at low HP.
Good luck next time!
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Post Tuesday, 27th June 2017, 10:52

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

That late in the game, when you are low on HP, quaffing a potion of heal wounds usually does not save you. You will sustain more damage during the time it takes to drink it than you heal up that way.
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Post Tuesday, 27th June 2017, 11:54

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

There are quite a lot of things to comment on, but let's focus on the most important thing:

You used an enormous amount of XP to get Firestorm and Shatter castable and you were working on Glaciate. Mostly, my recommendation would be to stick to a single elemental school for damage. As a GrEE, that would almost certainly be Earth for me. Between LRD, Shatter and Iron Shot/LCS you shouldn't have any trouble killing things.

Then all that Fire and Ice XP can go into defences! With 30 Int and 20 Str, I would usually wear heavier armour than Robes. It depends what generates, but light Dragon Scales can be great, Ring Mail can be good. Something lighter if you have access to Ozo's Armour.

Then spend more XP on armour/dodging. Then maybe Invo/Evo.

If you want to branch into other magics because you have spell levels and XP, get some summons (Shadow Creatures!), they are extremely strong, and some good utility. You picked CBlink and Blink, which are great.

You seem to be doing fine in the early game, so to make the game a bit more interesting, why not pick a different strong magic combo? Say HOFE or MfIE. Nothing wrong with GrEE though. It can do 15 runes fairly casually. Shatter/LRD lets you ninja runes. Bear in mind that you don't have to fight every monster!

Also, I wouldn't usually perma-fly in extended. Airstrike can be very painful.

Finally, you are with TSO, and you have {******}, make some angels! There is so much TSO piety in Pan/Hell/Tomb/Abyss that you can always have a friendly Angel, (or two or three!) with you. They are also incredibly strong.

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Post Tuesday, 27th June 2017, 12:36

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:If you want to branch into other magics because you have spell levels and XP, get some summons (Shadow Creatures!), they are extremely strong, and some good utility.
[...]
Finally, you are with TSO, and you have {******}, make some angels! There is so much TSO piety in Pan/Hell/Tomb/Abyss that you can always have a friendly Angel, (or two or three!) with you. They are also incredibly strong.

Allies and Shatter together are not a useful combination. Once you decide to go for the big spells (level 9 elemental damage spells), you kiss all summons and allies good-bye. Which is just as well, because playing with allies is a lot more tedious than killing things directly.
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Post Tuesday, 27th June 2017, 14:01

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

The thing is that a bunch of Angels or Shadow summons would've probably saved him there. Having a Level 9 spell castable doesn't mean every enemy needs to be killed with it. In Pan it's often best to just keep going, instead of fighting too much.
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Post Tuesday, 27th June 2017, 19:24

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Thank you very much for the advice and observations! It's helped me a lot.

4Hooves2Appendages, I will also be happy with your other detailed comments :)
I used three 9th-level spells at once just because I was afraid to meet enemies who would have resistances to Shatter or Firestorm. But now I see that it was not too reasonable.

I have a couple more questions :)
1) At what stage of the game is it better to start investing in armour / dodging? Right after ####.. in Sandblast (for example) or after I find good enchanted leather armour?
2) One elemental school for damage, I got it :) And how much do I need to invest in Conjurations if I play an elemental magician?
3) The other schools of magic touch only to reduce success rate? For example, I found Shadows Creatures spell. In what proportions should Summonings be invested?

I apologize if the questions are too stupid, but I really really want to understand :)
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Post Tuesday, 27th June 2017, 22:03

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Nothing wrong with questions, and yours certainly aren't stupid.

1) Generally, there are no hard and fast rules for when to train defences. The most important consideration is usually: Can you kill everything comfortably at the moment? If the answer is yes, train for a point of EV (or AC, depending) and a level of Fighting or two for HP, then re-evaluate. Later, add some utility like Evo/Invo some low level spells.

As a magic background, wearing light armour, I probably wouldn't train armour until I had 5 or 6 base AC, that's Robes (2), or Leather (3), and Gloves (1), Boots (1) and Helmet (1). (For a melee fighter who found a heavy armour the story is different and armour makes a lot of sense even quite early.) Instead, dodging and fighting are a better choice.

For some backgrounds there are fairly obvious points when killing shouldn't be too hard anymore. When a FE/Wiz gets Conjure Flame for example. For EE getting Stone Arrow useable is very important, especially if you didn't find any stones on the floor. Even so, training Fighting to 1 or 2 can be done quite early.

2) In general, it depends on the spells. If your main attack spell (Iron Shot, Bolt of Fire, Bolt of Ice, Poison Arrow, etc.) requires both Conjurations and an elemental school, then I would invest equal XP into both. That gives you the most benefit for the least XP. The skills menu has the really useful training cost display. Train a level of whichever has the lower cost, to the next full level, then check the costs again. A Gr would end up with a higher skill level in Earth than in Conjurations, because of the different aptitudes.

If your attack spell needs three schools, then balance all three. This applies to Bolt of Magma (not a very good spell) and Freezing Cloud (a great spell).

For an EE the story is slightly different because LRD is an incredibly strong spell, and it doesn't need conjurations. So you can often stop training conjurations when Stone Arrow works well. Maybe come back much later to get Iron Shot or LCS. Perhaps it would be safer to train for Iron Shot though, because LRD is very noisy and noise can be quite dangerous for the inexperienced or unprepared.

3) Again, depends on the spell. Some spells benefit hugely from spell power, notably Hexes and Conjurations/Attack spells. Summons, Charms, Tlocs tend to work well enough once you are happy with the fail rate. Summons still get something from spell power, namely the summons hang around for longer and/or are a bit stronger. Mana Vipers for example hit harder with higher spell power. The effect isn't all that important though.


I'm sorry that I can't give more direct answers.

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Post Tuesday, 27th June 2017, 23:51

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Mostly, my recommendation would be to stick to a single elemental school for damage.


Wrong advice IMO. The damage increase from increased spellpower from putting additional XP beyond castable threshold is extremely small for level 9 spells.
For example, with DECj^Veh, you can get 2% failure in fire storm with Spl/Conj/Fire 19/22/22 resp. Putting additional XP to 27/27/27 is absolutely terrible decision here. (unless you did 3+ megazigs)
I'd rather put XP in other ways. (CBlink, evoc, ..)
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Post Tuesday, 27th June 2017, 23:59

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

papilio wrote:
4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Mostly, my recommendation would be to stick to a single elemental school for damage.


Wrong advice IMO. The damage increase from increased spellpower from putting additional XP beyond castable threshold is extremely small for level 9 spells.
For example, with DECj^Veh, you can get 2% failure in fire storm with Spl/Conj/Fire 19/22/22 resp. Putting additional XP to 27/27/27 is absolutely terrible decision here. (unless you did 3+ megazigs)
I'd rather put XP in other ways. (CBlink, evoc, ..)

That wasn't his advice at all, he said use the extra XP on defense/utility spells, not on "make a single leve 9 spell more powerful" That was instead of "get several level 9 spells from different schools online"
4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Then all that Fire and Ice XP can go into defences!
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Post Wednesday, 28th June 2017, 19:34

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

4Hooves2Appendages, thanks again :) It's not easy to find out about such nuances. For me, it's true.

And if you play as a pure melee background, do you need to immediately wear heavy armour (like plate armour) as soon as you find it? Or wait a bit and first invest in armour skill?

I just now really understood how to used training cost display. No, seriously :) This thing is great.

About the skills of Conjurations/Elemental is clear (I understood :) ), but what about the spellcasting? In theory, you need all 27 points for spell slots & reduce level of hunger. And how on practise?

Wrong advice IMO. The damage increase from increased spellpower from putting additional XP beyond castable threshold is extremely small for level 9 spells.


As I understand, 4Hooves2Appendages rather had in mind that in general it's better to invest only in one school that you use constantly. As soon as I could normally cast Glaciate, I should have invested more in defense. I agree: I shouldn't have spent so much on the study of different schools of magic :roll:
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Post Wednesday, 28th June 2017, 20:19

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

I think a more balanced response would be to go for two elemental schools for a caster - at least if you don't start out with Earth. If you just train one school, inevitably you will meet more and more enemies that are resistant to your spells. Having a second school as backup for that is always helpful. That does not mean that you have to go for the level 9 spells of the second school immediately. If you have Glaciate and then Iron Shot for all that is resistant to Ice, then that should keep you going. I agree with Papillo that getting a second elementary school going is not as expensive as it sounds.
Yes, you need to train reasonable defences, but in the end, your best defence as a caster is to kill everything before it kills you. Would another two or three pips in dodging really have saved you in this situation? I doubt it.
But 4hv2App is certainly right that three elementary schools is more than you need - at least before you have visited two Ziggurats and in this way have maxed out all your other critical skills.
You went with TSO this time, which is generally a good idea for the extended game. But his MP and and HP restoration is not as strong as HP with Makhleb and MP with Vehumet. If you want a safer way of going into the extended game, go with Vehumet for MP restoration, and train enough Necromancy and Charms to get reliable access to Death's Door. This incredible life-insurance spell is barred from you when following TSO.
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Post Wednesday, 28th June 2017, 20:53

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Majang wrote:I think a more balanced response would be to go for two elemental schools for a caster - at least if you don't start out with Earth. If you just train one school, inevitably you will meet more and more enemies that are resistant to your spells.
I don't usually do this anymore, but this is really bad advice.
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Post Wednesday, 28th June 2017, 21:02

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

duvessa wrote:
Majang wrote:I think a more balanced response would be to go for two elemental schools for a caster - at least if you don't start out with Earth. If you just train one school, inevitably you will meet more and more enemies that are resistant to your spells.
I don't usually do this anymore, but this is really bad advice.

Please, elaborate!
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Post Wednesday, 28th June 2017, 21:40

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Jeoffrey Monk wrote:And if you play as a pure melee background, do you need to immediately wear heavy armour (like plate armour) as soon as you find it? Or wait a bit and first invest in armour skill?


If you are not casting spells, then wear the heaviest armour you find immediately. Plate armour on D:3? Wear! Crystal Plate on D:1? WEAR! (Congratulations on your win.) The defence benefit is so strong, especially in the early dungeon, that the offense penalty can be ignored.

Training armour skill when you find a heavy armour is good too, because you'll usually get several points of AC for very little XP.

Jeoffrey Monk wrote:[...], but what about the spellcasting? In theory, you need all 27 points for spell slots & reduce level of hunger. And how on practise?

Well, let's consider the different things spellcasting does. It reduces hunger. This can basically be ignored, because there is enough food in the game. There are some special cases, but you'll notice those when they happen.

Spellcasting also gives MP. This can be nice in the beginning of the game. Later it doesn't matter much in my view. Species with good aptitude can pick up 1 or 2 points of extra MP for very little XP in some cases. That can be OK, but don't get carried away. Stronger spells are better than casting more spells. And spells get stronger faster by training their specific schools. Incidentally, Evocations and Invocations also give MP, and only your highest skill counts. I usually end up with more Evo/Invo than with SC.

SC also gives spell levels. This can be good if you found a great addition to your arsenal. In practice, normal levelling is usually enough to have the good spells. You can also swap out lower level spells for better ones with Amnesia.

Finally, SC also improves spell success of all schools, but at only one quarter of the rate of individual schools. For example, for Apportation, 4 levels of Spellcasting are worth the same as 1 level of Translocations. This effect gets better for spells that require more magic schools, so 4 levels of Spellcasting contribute the equivalent of 1 level of Fire and 1 level of conjurations to Throw Flame. So, if you are training for specific spell, and spellcasting is cheap enough, then you can sometimes got more benefit out of 1 level of spellcasting, than 1 level of the school you are training for.

In practice, training spellcasting to 27 is bad, unless you've got nothing else to train, or want to perfect your zig spellset. Somewhere around 10-15 is usually plenty, even for lategame characters. For example, my current Gnoll has 11 levels, and can't realistically get any higher and the spell set is perfectly fine for Depths.

Jeoffrey Monk wrote:
Wrong advice IMO. The damage increase from increased spellpower from putting additional XP beyond castable threshold is extremely small for level 9 spells.


As I understand, 4Hooves2Appendages rather had in mind that in general it's better to invest only in one school that you use constantly. As soon as I could normally cast Glaciate, I should have invested more in defense. I agree: I shouldn't have spent so much on the study of different schools of magic :roll:


Yes, I think there should be a focus on one elemental school for doing damage. I.e. get Bolt of Fire/Fireball or Bolt of Ice/Freezing Cloud or Iron Shot/LRD or Lightning Bolt/Airstrike, etc. Low level utility spells and extended are a different story. The former are easy to get without sacrificing much, the latter has plenty of XP to do whatever.

You can usually kill monsters through resistances. For immune enemies you need to have a backup of course, but that doesn't have to be a different elemental school. Throw Icicle/Ice Beasts do physical damage, Bolt of Magma does physical damage. Airstrike does physical damage. Poison Arrow does physical damage. Earth spells, well, do physical damage. If you are going for high level spells, then just add OoD, get some summons, train a ranged weapon, train a melee weapon, defeat the enemy differently (Oklobs, Slimify, Banish, Angels, Berserk, Apocalypse, Disaster Area, Hexes, Wands, Evokers, Smite, Scrolls, etc.), or even avoid them. By the time this becomes an actual problem, you should naturally have multiple solutions.

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Post Wednesday, 28th June 2017, 22:01

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Thanks, 4Hooves2Apps, for this elaboration - it is easy to understand that XP that you don't invest into another spell school you can invest into defences. I fully agree with that, and I certainly admit that having good dodging, fighting and some armour help a lot to make it through a game alive. I always invest into those (well, I leave out armour, sometimes, depending on the character). But I usually don't see much of a conflict between those and adding a second elementary school to my repertoire, even quite early in the game. Maybe this is a difference of approaching the game - I certainly pay the price by not having any mid-level utility spells available, such as controlled blink (which doesn't work when you need it most, anyway), and rather rely on having the right weapon in my hand when meeting whatever enemy. In the end, there are some critters I cannot run away from when I want to get a rune. My solution for that is killing them, and I am very happy to have another spell school at my fingertips that complements what I started out with. It seems that you and Duvessa favor a focused approach that gives you more XP to spend on support spells. The way I see it, the game can easily be won without these support spells, if your offensive arsenal is strong enough. Is that really bad advice, or is it just different from the approach that you prefer?
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Post Wednesday, 28th June 2017, 22:05

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Well, the game can be won in all sorts of ways, including the MuMo challenge, using nothing but a plain spear, or abanding Trog on Turn 1. We would probably agree that it wouldn't be good advice. I think what might be useful, is to look at specific characters, instead of talking in general terms.

Maybe next time you are in a situation where you are considering adding another magic school for damage, take a snapshot, and lets see what other people think.
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Post Wednesday, 28th June 2017, 22:23

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Well, to give you an example from my current game - I play a DsFE, and fire magic does not give me an irresistible spell until I hit FireStorm. Approaching Azrael and his cool gang of hell hounds and fire elementals with my FE inventory of Fireball and BoF is not fun, to say the least. The investment of Evo to get any of my wands and evocables strong enough to deal with this situation is as high as training Earth magic instead. So this is what I did. Eventually I am also going to train Evo, but that can wait when I worry about channelling. Needless to say, I also don't fancy having my frail character deal with these threats with a melee weapon (although I did train Polearms a bit, and incidentally do wield an artefact spear of freezing).
I don't think that this approach is in any way comparable to attacking everything with a spear. It seems to be a solid strategy that is likely to see me through to an ascension, if I don't do something stupid. I really don't see what restricting myself to one elementary school will buy me in more useful assets.
Edit: Just after writing this, guess who I met on D13: Azrael. Killed him with LRD and my spear of freezing.
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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 07:54

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:
...Bolt of Magma (not a very good spell) <...>

Why?

And the magician needs a weapon skill? Or better always invested XP into magic/defence? What about Fighting?
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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 12:28

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Bolt of Magma
"This spell has bad range and mediocre damage, made worse by the low power from being triple-school. The only time I'd memorize bolt of magma is if I'm a fire character really desperate for unresistible damage, but since the damage is only 45% unresistible it's pretty bad even for that (comparable to IMB, but one level and two schools higher...). I don't ever want to see an EE even looking at this spell, there is no reason to ever cast it instead of LRD." From the very useful guide to spells, which I largely agree with.

I think, strictly, Magicians don't need weapon skills. But almost everyone trains some low XP weapon, like Demon Weapons, Lajatangs, Quick Blades, etc. That's not because it's necessary, or really strong, but because it's much more casual to kill easy enemies with melee. As a character with higher level damage spells, you just don't need bad melee damage to kill dangerous enemies. That's what you've got your spells for!

I've seen won games of good players who didn't put a single point of XP into weapons skills...

Fighting is probably the only spell that every decent character needs to train. (Maybe Evocations too.) That is mainly because training fightings gives HP. A lot of winning characters end up with fighting as one of their highest skills, as there's usually little benefit to training weapons past min delay and spells past level 9, etc. But more HP is always better!

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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 12:54

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:That's not because it's[skipped] or really strong, but because it's much more casual to kill easy enemies with melee.


Let me disagree with this. A character who can kill monsters with 0 MP without using consumables is really stronger than one who can't. There are diminishing returns in skill training (even before talking about higher levels becoming more expensive), for example difference between EV 26 and EV 27 or HP 180 and HP 185 is only marginal so it is often a good idea to train some weapon.
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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 13:05

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

VeryAngryFelid: I think those who suggest not to train weapon skills on conjurer type characters do not suggest to no use them. With good defenses you can easily kill most monsters with a 0 skill weapon.

I personally always train a weapon, but I am convinced that on many characters it is mostly for convenience rather than power. That said, after lair convenience is more important for me to win than power, because I am not that patient.

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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 13:12

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Yes, killing monsters without spending MP is nice. Once you find a good fast weapon with decent enchantment, you can kill a lot of stuff with it, even at minimal training.

That said, unless I'm set on using shields, I would probably advocate training ranged, rather than melee weapons. What's better than killing enemies for 0 MP? Killing enemies for 0 MP at range.

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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 13:36

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

sanka
I believe hybrids are more powerful than casters in 3 rune game (except with Vehumet probably), it is not about just convenience. Situations like "I am a Fo with 3 orbs of fire in view" or "I see 2 pan lords during orb run and one of them has Silence" make it obvious IMHO.
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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 14:47

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

I do not know if hybrids are more powerful or not, but I think your examples are not good for demonstrating this. I think that with 3 orb of fire in view and 2 panlords during orbrun is not exactly a situation where I would do any melee attack - not even with melee fighters! Formicids has more reason to train a weapon than other races, yes, that's true I think.

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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 14:50

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

I also think those are bad examples, because you don't want to fight in either of those situations, melee or not. You want to just get out. Fo is a special case anyhow, but in your example you better hope you have a good god or some strong spells / consumables.
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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 15:01

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

4Hooves2Appendage wrote:
From the very useful guide to spells, which I largely agree with.

Wow, It's just incredible... Since I registered at the forum, I realized that in fact, I don't know ANYTHING about the game :) Although I thought I knew a lot.
Thank you so much!

4Hooves2Appendage wrote:
Fighting is probably the only spell that every decent character needs to train. (Maybe Evocations too.)

About Evocations. It needs to train (generally) for chanelling ability (Staff of energy)? Or for something else?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Let me disagree with this. A character who can kill monsters with 0 MP without using consumables is really stronger than one who can't.

sanka wrote:
With good defenses you can easily kill most monsters with a 0 skill weapon.

4Hooves2Appendage wrote:
That said, unless I'm set on using shields, I would probably advocate training ranged, rather than melee weapons. What's better than killing enemies for 0 MP? Killing enemies for 0 MP at range.


It all depends on the taste, probably :) + there is such a moment ... You found a good mace, invested in Maces&Flails, and then found a trident, which is even better... Awkward situation.


4Hooves2Appendage wrote:
I also think those are bad examples, because you don't want to fight in either of those situations, melee or not. You want to just get out.

There appears one question. Do you always use autoexplore? Because if you miss some enemies, then it will not work, you will always bump into missed enemies, run again, etc.
Forgive me for any mistakes, English is not my native language :roll:
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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 15:16

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Bolt of Magma
"This spell has bad range and mediocre damage, made worse by the low power from being triple-school. The only time I'd memorize bolt of magma is if I'm a fire character really desperate for unresistible damage, but since the damage is only 45% unresistible it's pretty bad even for that (comparable to IMB, but one level and two schools higher...). I don't ever want to see an EE even looking at this spell, there is no reason to ever cast it instead of LRD." From the very useful guide to spells, which I largely agree with.

With all due respect to Duvessa and his good spell guide, his statement on BoM is based on singularly thin evidence.
  • The damage of BoM is by no means mediocre. It probably is if you don't train a second elemental school, and that is probably Duvessa's point, but that is also the point of our argument here. Training this second spell school gives you a quite powerful (and yes, partly irresistible) weapon
  • Range of 4 is not that bad. It's 5 with Vehumet's help. Duvessa seems to have an obsession with fighting things at the fringe of LOS. At the same time he sings the praises of Freeze and Sticky Flame. Go figure.
  • Duvessa misleads us when he compares BoM's damage output with IMB. He means only the irresistible part of BoM's damage. Add to that the other 55% that hit anything not immune to fire. In the mid game, this means almost all targets.
  • And finally he glosses over the fact that there are countless situations when you just cannot cast LRD (not just in the Swamp, but in any open layout level). "There is no reason to ever cast it instead of LRD" is simply not true, and I guess he knows it.
Add to that that BoM is a bolt spell, and the only bolt spell that EE's have at their disposal, and you'll agree that you shouldn't believe everything that Duvessa tells you. Just most of it.
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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 15:34

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Majang:
[*] Instead of training the second school for BoM, you could train the first one and get even better damage on your main attack. It's damage is bad if your starting spells can beat it.
[*] Range of 4 is bad, LRD has much better range. And freeze and sticky flame being very good spells at range 1 does not mean they won't be much much better with range 7. And Vehumet is a weak god, and 5 range is still not better than LRD or fire spells range.
[*] Duvessa clearly refered that some people thinks that it is useful to use BoM for irresistible damage as a fire elementalist. He just points out that for irresistible damage IMB (a level 4, single school spell) is better. If you do not need irresistible damage than you surely have something better than BoM anyway!
[*] You can use LRD in open levels. You can use petrify or can lead monsters to near the edge, you can also use summons and sometimes fog. Absolutely open levels are very rare nowadays anyway. Swamp is not very hard, even if you do not use LRD there, you do not need BoM just for swamp or open levels, it's much better to just train defenses instead of fire school and conjurations, and use some consumables occasionally. For me the main point is that training fire magic just for 1-2 levels in the whole game does not worth it - you will have so many consumables/options by there.

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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 16:18

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

sanka wrote:And Vehumet is a weak god.

That's another of these mysterious blanket statements that everyone seems to keep repeating here without providing any evidence. No, he is not a weak god for a caster - all his benefits are most relevant such as extending the range of your spells. Of course he is a weak god for a MiFi, but you don't mean that, do you?
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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 16:25

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

My examples were assumed to prove that it is not always possible to avoid fighting with 0 mp.
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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 22:32

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Majang wrote:
sanka wrote:And Vehumet is a weak god.

That's another of these mysterious blanket statements that everyone seems to keep repeating here without providing any evidence. No, he is not a weak god for a caster - all his benefits are most relevant such as extending the range of your spells. Of course he is a weak god for a MiFi, but you don't mean that, do you?

The classic problem with Vehumet is that the player gets no benefit for quite some time. At * you get a tiny bit of mana, which mostly cuts down on resting, after killing monsters. You also get offered some level one spells, which doesn't seem so useful when you are casting level 3/4 spell at this point.

The wizardry boost at *** is decent, especially when you have something worthwhile to cast. But you'll already be in Lair/Branches at that point, so you didn't really need Vehumet.

Yeah, in extended the mana and range are nice. It makes playing a level 9 caster quite smooth and casual. It even works in Zigs to a degree.

The problem with Vehumet hasn't gone away though: There's a stronger god available at every stage of the game.

When evaluating god strengths I first look at what I get immediately, or shortly after, joining. Vehumet scores poorly in this regard.

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Post Friday, 30th June 2017, 22:43

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Jeoffrey Monk wrote:There appears one question. Do you always use autoexplore? Because if you miss some enemies, then it will not work, you will always bump into missed enemies, run again, etc.


I use autoexplore most of the time, out of convenience. It sometimes lands me in bad spots, for example with bad approaches to doors and corners. It also uses more turns, and thus costs piety and food and causes more monster spawns. I've never been directly killed by it, as far as I can tell, so it's not horrendous.

I make some exceptions:
- On weak combos I don't autoexplore until I feel a bit more comfortable with my power level. That can mean the first few floors.
- I don't autoexplore in Shoals, because I hate getting caught in shallow water.
- I don't autoexplore in Pan/Hell, unless I'm feeling fairly invincible.
- I don't autoexplore in Abyss, because it just doesn't work well.
- I don't usually autoexplore in Zot, and definitely not in Zot 5. I normally dive Zot, i.e. take first stairs and carry on. I don't usually need the XP and Zot can be dangerous.
- Tomb is a bad place for autoexplore.
- Autoexploring into the vault on Elf:3 can be bad, so I usually map the vault and place exceptions.
- The bottom floor of slime isn't good either.
- Depths:1/Lair:1/Vaults:1 are important and can be dangerous, so clear a bit first, then explore away. Getting lots of dangerous monsters clumped up near the stairs is really bad on levels with only 1 staircase.
- Vaults:5 can be bad with weaker characters, because there are some pretty open layouts.
- Some portal vaults are better explored by hand, like volcanoes and wizlabs. Labyrinths give you no choice.

The way to autoexplore while avoiding monsters is to place exceptions generously. To place an exception press 'X', move the cursor to the tile you want to exclude and press 'e'. You can cycle through 'all tiles in view of the target' (good for sleeping monsters, statues, oklobs, ranged monsters behind water, etc.) and 'just that tile', good for reminding me about staircases with bad stuff on the other end, or keeping doors closed.

I often place exceptions more widely around dangerous enemies, either to avoid them if awake, or to prevent waking them up, if still asleep.
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Post Saturday, 1st July 2017, 08:18

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:The classic problem with Vehumet is that the player gets no benefit for quite some time. At * you get a tiny bit of mana, which mostly cuts down on resting, after killing monsters. You also get offered some level one spells, which doesn't seem so useful when you are casting level 3/4 spell at this point.

The wizardry boost at *** is decent, especially when you have something worthwhile to cast. But you'll already be in Lair/Branches at that point, so you didn't really need Vehumet.

Yeah, in extended the mana and range are nice. It makes playing a level 9 caster quite smooth and casual. It even works in Zigs to a degree.

The problem with Vehumet hasn't gone away though: There's a stronger god available at every stage of the game.

When evaluating god strengths I first look at what I get immediately, or shortly after, joining. Vehumet scores poorly in this regard.

Thanks for the explanation - that is way more profitable than just throwing in "X is a weak God". (I know that wasn't you)

I agree that Vehumet starts to shine quite a while after conversion. Mana recovery at * is certainly negligible. But I tend to have Vehumet at ***** long before I am done with the Lair.

I would not discount level 1 spells. Most of them you ignore anyway, but there may be the one level 1 or 2 spell that gets you going early on your second elementary school, the one that has synergies with the one you started out with.

The wizardry boost at *** is usually the thing that finally allows me to cast Fireball or LRD with impunity, where before the risk of spell failure (and wasting 5 MP in the face of a death yak or hydra) has been forcing me to run for a safer place. And don't forget that I am running with that second elementary school now - it will benefit from the wizardry boost for quite a while. Finally, it is this wizardry boost that allows most Vehumet worshippers to cast their first level-9 spells while starting out on the Depths, long before a 3-rune game is over. Without Vehumet, you'd need Chei's INT-Boost to get to that position (another so-called weak God in the books of those who apparently don't know what it means to play a dedicated caster).

What it seems to boil down to, in the end, is play style. Vehumet is an excellent god for those who want to play more aggressively as casters; one of his strongest sides is that he does not (anymore) support you in any way with summons and allies, which is what probably many see as a reason to classify him as a weak God. I re-assert my above statement that allies and level-9 spells are not compatible. As long as one of your allies still hops around in the fray, you cannot cast Tornado or Shatter, and you are severely limited in your ability to cast Glaciate and Firestorm. Please don't ever advise a level-9 caster to unleash an angel. It won't do. And there is nothing an angel will do in 10 turns that Shatter and Firestorm don't clear up in three turns.

In a Ziggurat, Vehumet does not just work to a degree - in conjunction with Death's Door and Controlled Blink Vehumet seems to be the only god that makes it impossible to die in a Ziggurat.
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Post Saturday, 1st July 2017, 08:33

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Range of 4 is bad, LRD has much better range. And freeze and sticky flame being very good spells at range 1 does not mean they won't be much much better with range 7. [...] 5 range is still not better than LRD or fire spells range.

Of course LRD has better range than BoM, and it is even better by being smite targeted (that is, if there happens to be something you can target it on). And you are correct that Freeze and Sticky Flame are amazing spells, in spite of their melee characteristics. That is why language like "range 4 is bad" or "spell x useless" does not really contribute well to a discussion of spells. Each spell has its tactical opportunities and its tactical limitations. How would Duvessa rage on spells being "broken" if they all had LOS range? Don't forget that all his advice is based on the requirements of "optimal play", something that many players are not ready to put with (certainly not me).
Believe me that there are play styles (and no, I am not talking about crackpot tactics or behaviors like attacking everything with a spear) to which spells such as BoM provide an excellent contribution.
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Post Sunday, 2nd July 2017, 07:40

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

I honestly do not get your point. Some spells are better than others, and BoM is amongst the weaker ones. Powerwise there are almost always better options. And that is because for a level 5 three school spell neither the damage, nor the range is good. Of course bad range would not be a problem if it would deal twice as much damage, and it also would be a significant buff to have full range without damage increase. And range 4 is bad and BoM is useless are perfect statements about the power of spells.

I do not beleive you that BoM is a good choice for most characters power wise. You can memorise it for convenience, but it's not the point. Also sometimes you may not find any better spells, but it is quite rare.

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Post Sunday, 2nd July 2017, 08:45

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Majang wrote:How would Duvessa rage on spells being "broken" if they all had LOS range?
You're phrasing this as a hypothetical, but all spells did have LOS range in sufficiently old versions! The most broken spells were Silence (which was still broken after it got a range, then it got nerfed into oblivion), Evaporate (which got removed, thank god), Detect Creatures (which got removed, thank god), Controlled Blink back when it was level 4 (which got changed to level 8 and then level 7 and then level 8 and now it doesn't even give you semicontrolled blinks in Zot), etc...
I can confidently say 0.4 Bolt of Magma did not stand out as overpowered. It was better than 0.4 LRD because 0.4 LRD was Transmutation/Earth, and 0.4 LRD did a little over half the damage that 0.8+ LRD does, but it didn't hold a candle to most other conjurations. Back to current bolt of magma, if you gave it LOS range it would still have garbage damage and garbage schools and be unambiguously worse than LRD.

If you changed all current spells with sub-LOS range to have LOS range, the ones I would consider broken are freeze, conjure flame, vampiric draining, sticky flame, and summon lightning spire. Coincidentally, these are all spells that I already think are broken.
(This is assuming that "LOS range" fireball/meph/etc. means that the explosion reaches the edge of LOS, not the targeter; a version of Fireball that could hit monsters 8 squares away would be broken. Yes, I know there are spells that already do this, specifically LRD and CBL...)

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Post Sunday, 2nd July 2017, 09:12

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Jeoffrey Monk wrote:
4Hooves2Appendage wrote:
I also think those are bad examples, because you don't want to fight in either of those situations, melee or not. You want to just get out.

There appears one question. Do you always use autoexplore? Because if you miss some enemies, then it will not work, you will always bump into missed enemies, run again, etc.

You can set an exclusion in a certain area to make sure you don't autoexplore into it. Of course, if you woke up the monster, it could have moved in the meantime. But this method is good for sleeping monsters, and also works ok for some other cases.

If there are many enemies you are avoiding on the current floor, you can can skip the rest of the floor and go down. If you like, you can always come back later when you're stronger. Many uniques fall into this category.
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Post Sunday, 2nd July 2017, 11:53

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

duvessa wrote:You're phrasing this as a hypothetical, but all spells did have LOS range in sufficiently old versions! The most broken spells were Silence (which was still broken after it got a range, then it got nerfed into oblivion), Evaporate (which got removed, thank god), Detect Creatures (which got removed, thank god), Controlled Blink back when it was level 4 (which got changed to level 8 and then level 7 and then level 8 and now it doesn't even give you semicontrolled blinks in Zot), etc...
I can confidently say 0.4 Bolt of Magma did not stand out as overpowered. It was better than 0.4 LRD because 0.4 LRD was Transmutation/Earth, and 0.4 LRD did a little over half the damage that 0.8+ LRD does, but it didn't hold a candle to most other conjurations.

Thanks for this elucidation - I came to Crawl around version 0.10, so never knew or experienced that.

Back to current bolt of magma, if you gave it LOS range it would still have garbage damage and garbage schools and be unambiguously worse than LRD.

Maybe your use of strong words to make your point gets you into hyperbole, but garbage damage? Have you read you own spell guide (to which I find myself referring again and again)? BoM is outperformed by only one level-5 direct-damage spell damage-wise, and that is LRD, but only in ideal circumstances. Regarding rock walls, LRD is just as good as BoM, without the annoying side-effect that you never quite know what you are going to hit with LRD, except near metal walls. If the corridor I'm standing in does not happen to made of metal (and that is the norm for most of the game), the enemy that needs killing most usually stands right next to me, and I'm faced with the choice of either wasting two or three casts to hit him once, or to risk shrapnelling myself. BoM is clearly the better tactical choice in such a situation. Okay, a double-zapped Lightning Bolt also tops BoM's damage, but it has no synergies with either fire or earth, so you are not likely to learn it if you started out with either spell school.

Furthermore, BoM has no power cap below 200, like some other level 5 spells, so it stays with you to the end of the game.
Yes, it requires three schools (why are they garbage?), and yes, range is not as high as I'd wish it to be, but for this I have Vehumet, and I'm going to learn these schools anyway the way I play this game.
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Post Sunday, 2nd July 2017, 18:05

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Majang wrote:Well, to give you an example from my current game - I play a DsFE, and fire magic does not give me an irresistible spell until I hit FireStorm. Approaching Azrael and his cool gang of hell hounds and fire elementals with my FE inventory of Fireball and BoF is not fun, to say the least. The investment of Evo to get any of my wands and evocables strong enough to deal with this situation is as high as training Earth magic instead. So this is what I did. Eventually I am also going to train Evo, but that can wait when I worry about channelling. Needless to say, I also don't fancy having my frail character deal with these threats with a melee weapon (although I did train Polearms a bit, and incidentally do wield an artefact spear of freezing).
I don't think that this approach is in any way comparable to attacking everything with a spear. It seems to be a solid strategy that is likely to see me through to an ascension, if I don't do something stupid. I really don't see what restricting myself to one elementary school will buy me in more useful assets.
Edit: Just after writing this, guess who I met on D13: Azrael. Killed him with LRD and my spear of freezing.


I don't think you'll want to hear this, but here goes. This is a good example of when not to train a second elemental school for damage.

Training Earth, to get LRD, on an FE, while still in Dungeon (or even post-Lair), because you are worried about Azrael is a waste of XP. (Training anything to beat a specific unique is probably a waste of XP.) If you're an FE and you meet Azrael and you don't have anything to kill him with, then just leave him alone.

The next group of enemies you'll bump into that are regularly fire resistant/immune are probably Salamanders in Snake, or Dragons/Draconians in Depths. There's no need to solve this problem before even doing Lair branches.

Training Earth there, instead of Evocations, is probably a straight up mistake. Many damage wands (like Acid, Lightning, Iceblast, etc.) are still pretty strong at Evo 5-10, which is quite attainable. The Hex wands are also incredibly powerful, especially against certain dangerous enemies like Bees, Hornets, etc. Incidentally, Iceblast is amazing against Azrael and his gang, because it's AoE and they are all vulnerable.

The only saving grace of training LRD is that it's, well, LRD, which is a very strong spell.
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Post Sunday, 2nd July 2017, 18:17

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

So you are telling me that I should train another skill in order to not commit the sin of training a second elemental school, that would fix all my offensive problems (including killing Azrael when I meet him). That doesn't sound very convincing.
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Post Sunday, 2nd July 2017, 18:46

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

If you have a character that uses conjurations from a specific magic school as the main attack (most FE, IE, AE, EE), and you are still in the early/midgame (no runes yet), and your main attack spell (Fireball, Lightning Bolt, LRD, etc.) is killing things reliably, and you are wondering what next to spend XP on, then I would strongly suggest that Evocations is a much better investment than another elemental school.

If your Evo is already fine, then what about Invo, defences, fighting, ranged, or utility spells? I consider all of those to be better options than getting a different flavour elemental magic attack.

Edit:
Just to make this clear. I'm not saying anything is a sin. If you want to play a character that trains multiple elemental magic schools, knock yourself out! If you want to train all the magic schools, and don't like evokers, that's fine. What I'm saying is that you weaken your characters by doing that.

If you are already in extended, drowning in XP, and fancy training LRD and Freezing Cloud and Ball Lightning on your FE, that's great. It's not likely to make any difference how that XP is spent and those are all good spells.

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Post Sunday, 2nd July 2017, 18:55

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

If your Evo is already fine, then what about Invo, defences, fighting, ranged, or utility spells? I consider all of those to be better options than getting a different flavour elemental magic attack.

Hmm, yes, but why? I still fail to see the rationale. Of course I also train dodging, and fighting. But I certainly don't train ranged (why on earth would I as a conjurer?). Invo is out when worshipping Vehumet (not a weak God, if only for that reason), and I sacrifice for my playstyle by kissing good bye all high-level utility spells, at least before the extended game, because I plainly don't need them. This way, the experience for a second elementary school (which usually fills the tactical gaps of the first school) does not come at a premium. I invest in exactly one more skill, instead of all the multitude of distractions that your are suggesting. This gives me so much aggressive potential that I don't need much else in the game. Try it once!
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Post Sunday, 2nd July 2017, 20:10

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Majang wrote:
If your Evo is already fine, then what about Invo, defences, fighting, ranged, or utility spells? I consider all of those to be better options than getting a different flavour elemental magic attack.

Hmm, yes, but why? I still fail to see the rationale. Of course I also train dodging, and fighting. But I certainly don't train ranged (why on earth would I as a conjurer?). Invo is out when worshipping Vehumet (not a weak God, if only for that reason), and I sacrifice for my playstyle by kissing good bye all high-level utility spells, at least before the extended game, because I plainly don't need them. This way, the experience for a second elementary school (which usually fills the tactical gaps of the first school) does not come at a premium. I invest in exactly one more skill, instead of all the multitude of distractions that your are suggesting. This gives me so much aggressive potential that I don't need much else in the game. Try it once!

When considering evo or ranged vs say adding earth to a FE, you should look first at *how many problems does this solve* fire magic already solves the vast majority of your "i need to kill something" needs, so you need to look for solutions for the cases when you can't kill things with fire: 1. It is immune or resistant to fire, 2. You have no mp, 3. It is just flat out too tough or damaging and would kill you first.

1 is solved by earth, 1 and 2 are solved by Evo or ranged, and 3 is solved with running away, consumables or possibly some escape/utility spells, and some evokables.

Depending of course on what you find. If you find no evokables and no decent ranged weapons, but do find an earth book that would help, then that is better than nothing, but in a typical game, evokables and decent ranged weapons are much more common than an earth book with lrd in it. It seems obvious to me that in the case where you find all three, evokation > ranged > earth as a secondary problem solver.
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Post Sunday, 2nd July 2017, 20:37

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Siegurt wrote:Depending of course on what you find. If you find no evokables and no decent ranged weapons, but do find an earth book that would help, then that is better than nothing, but in a typical game, evokables and decent ranged weapons are much more common than an earth book with lrd in it. It seems obvious to me that in the case where you find all three, evokation > ranged > earth as a secondary problem solver.

Thanks for this balanced assessment! But you forget that with worshipping Vehumet you are quite likely to get a viable Earth option by the time you need it. He usually gifts me BoM or Iron Shot before finishing the Lair, often both. Either spell is an excellent secondary problem solver, and I snatch them up as soon as they come my way. In the same way, if I start out as an EE, I am likely to be gifted Sticky Flame, Fireball, BoM and/or Bolt of Fire. Either of them solves my Earth related problems, and serves as a good start into fire magic.
The situation is different if I follow, say, Chei. Then there is much less likelihood of the secondary-school spells becoming available. In that case evocations will play a much greater role. I will again usually not go into physical ranged skills, because I want evocations anyway. Ranged skills will be experience thrown at stuff that I am not likely to use later in the game, when all desired spells become available. But again, with Chei you have a greater danger of running out of MP than with Vehumet, and some killing options not requiring MP are very important.
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Post Sunday, 2nd July 2017, 21:40

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Majang wrote:BoM is outperformed by only one level-5 direct-damage spell damage-wise, and that is LRD, but only in ideal circumstances.
[...]
Yes, it requires three schools (why are they garbage?)
You clearly do not understand how spell power works.
For spell success and power, the average skill level among all the spell's schools is used. Here is an example.
Let's be generous and say you have 8 Spellcasting, and we'll say intelligence is 20 because it's a nice round number. If you train conjurations, fire, and earth magic all to 12, then your Bolt of Magma power is 54. Your LRD power is also 54, as is your Fireball power.
Suppose that we took all the XP spent on earth magic, and put it equally into conjurations and fire instead. Assuming equal aptitudes, this gives you 14.285 conjurations and 14.285 fire. Your spell power is now 60 for Fireball and 47 for Bolt of Magma.
Suppose that we took all the XP spent on fire magic and conjurations, and put it into earth magic instead. Assuming equal aptitudes, this gives you 16.1595 earth. Your spell power is now 64 for LRD and 33 for Bolt of Magma.

More schools = harder to cast and lower spell power = worse spell. Having three schools is bad, no matter what those schools are. Freezing Cloud manages to make up for it by having almost no power dependence and being generally OP. Bolt of Magma compares poorly to other level 5 spells even at equal power; Fireball and LRD both have way longer range, can't miss, and can even hit things out of LOS. Bolt of Draining does basically the same damage (because of the 1+1d3 bonus) and drains monsters; Venom Bolt does very slightly less and poisons monsters (and isn't a good spell either). Lightning bolt does overwhelmingly more damage because you get to hit twice with it. And because Bolt of Magma has 3 schools, you will not have equal power, unless your skill training is idiotic in an extremely specific way.

Is Bolt of Magma completely, absolutely, always useless? No, that honor goes to Cigotuvi's Embrace. But it is very weak compared to other level 5 damage spells, and only useful for an extremely narrow subset of characters, one that does not include EE.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 2
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cjo

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Post Monday, 3rd July 2017, 05:20

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

I've been watching this thread with interest, as for a long time I've never been quite sure how to approach skilling my elementalists from about the point where I hit lair. I used to just push elemental skills and take it on faith that appropriate spell books would show up, but after some IRC advice and reading other forum posts, I've tried to pull back a little and put more into fighting, dodging, and stealth. I was told not to train spell skills past the point where I had my main killing spell at 1% fail rate.

I do like Vehumet--I think he's good for keeping things (relatively) simple so long as you don't get tempted into spells you don't need, and I love his range extension. His wizardry doesn't seem to matter much unless / until you go after very high level spells, which fittingly enough he guarantees access to. I can see what people say about how he doesn't do much to get you out of trouble if you misstep though. Besides, I'd like to think that offensive casters have some flexibility about god choice.

What do you do if you start as (for example) fire elementalist and you find books containing iron shot and LCS before finding any high level fire books and weren't worshipping a spell gifting god? Would you switch gears and decide your long term path is now earth/conjurations? Or stay the course with fire?
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Post Monday, 3rd July 2017, 05:50

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

cjo wrote:I've been watching this thread with interest, as for a long time I've never been quite sure how to approach skilling my elementalists from about the point where I hit lair. I used to just push elemental skills and take it on faith that appropriate spell books would show up, but after some IRC advice and reading other forum posts, I've tried to pull back a little and put more into fighting, dodging, and stealth. I was told not to train spell skills past the point where I had my main killing spell at 1% fail rate.

I do like Vehumet--I think he's good for keeping things (relatively) simple so long as you don't get tempted into spells you don't need, and I love his range extension. His wizardry doesn't seem to matter much unless / until you go after very high level spells, which fittingly enough he guarantees access to. I can see what people say about how he doesn't do much to get you out of trouble if you misstep though. Besides, I'd like to think that offensive casters have some flexibility about god choice.

What do you do if you start as (for example) fire elementalist and you find books containing iron shot and LCS before finding any high level fire books and weren't worshipping a spell gifting god? Would you switch gears and decide your long term path is now earth/conjurations? Or stay the course with fire?


In spite of what Duvessa says, do both. And hope for finding BoM, too! You'll not regret it.
And I'm somewhat wary of the advice that all you need is 1% failure rate to stop training your magic skills. Particularly when your are going with Vehumet, but also when you rely on wizardry items, this can leave your spells underpowered. A 8#-Ironshot is an entirely different matter than a 6#-Ironshot. You can have both with 1% failure rate.
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Post Monday, 3rd July 2017, 06:08

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

duvessa wrote:
Majang wrote:BoM is outperformed by only one level-5 direct-damage spell damage-wise, and that is LRD, but only in ideal circumstances.
[...]
Yes, it requires three schools (why are they garbage?)
You clearly do not understand how spell power works.
For spell success and power, the average skill level among all the spell's schools is used. Here is an example.
Let's be generous and say you have 8 Spellcasting, and we'll say intelligence is 20 because it's a nice round number. If you train conjurations, fire, and earth magic all to 12, then your Bolt of Magma power is 54. Your LRD power is also 54, as is your Fireball power.
Suppose that we took all the XP spent on earth magic, and put it equally into conjurations and fire instead. Assuming equal aptitudes, this gives you 14.285 conjurations and 14.285 fire. Your spell power is now 60 for Fireball and 47 for Bolt of Magma.
Suppose that we took all the XP spent on fire magic and conjurations, and put it into earth magic instead. Assuming equal aptitudes, this gives you 16.1595 earth. Your spell power is now 64 for LRD and 33 for Bolt of Magma.

This example has nothing to do with the character build that I envision. Look, how clear do I have to write this? My intention is to go with two elemental schools as a strategy from the outset, starting as soon as I can find the second. So you will always be looking at the first scenario, where - roughly, with some obvious lag - both elemental schools will be tracing each other, and conjurations. As I said, the experience for doing that and getting your spells to extremely high power quite early in a normal 3-rune game is available in the game. I pay for this by not having controlled blink, statue form, turn invisible, or any other high level-support spell. This is a strategy, and from my playing experience it seems to be one that makes me win often enough.
Yes, BoM is probably crap if you are not willing to invest into all the involved spell schools. I agree with you on that. But if this is precisely what you plan to do, then BoM is a wonderful spell, giving you the highest level-5 spell damage on average.
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Post Monday, 3rd July 2017, 06:14

Re: YASD! My first visit to Pan & frustrating death :'(

Majang, this was a hypothetical. I figured you'd say do both though :) I did post my current CIP just now so I can get specific advice, but that question was more about me trying to get a handle on when it is / isn't worth switching elements, for players like me who pick one 'main' element.

I will say I've been finding stealth to be hugely useful. It's made it so much easier to split up packs, which has helped with spell hunger, since I got to eat more chunks in lair instead of killing two yaks and then running away and letting the bodies rot. I'm still working out how I like to develop skills, but I don't think I'd ever work on two elements equally all game long. I have put ranks in earth so I can use iron shot even if my main element is something else though--then again, that was several versions back and I'm not sure if exp is still as easy to come by.

That's a good point about wizardry giving deceptive results RE spell success vs power. Something to keep in mind when I follow Vehumet.

BTW, to the OP: congrats on reaching Pandemonium!
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