Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes


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Lair Larrikin

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Post Wednesday, 14th June 2017, 16:55

Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

I don't think there are any non-flavor reasons why Bows are at +3 aptitude and other ranged skills at +1. It would make some choices less of a no-brainer, if the aptitudes were equal, which is one of the design goals of DCSS. I am having no strong preference for an actual number, although +2 would probably be reasonable. Any thoughts?

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duvessa

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Post Wednesday, 14th June 2017, 17:28

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

Meaningless posturing with no actual substance behind it, like most GDD posts. Killing enemies is a no-brainer for character survival, should we remove everything that allows this dangerous, degenerate tactic?
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Wednesday, 14th June 2017, 17:50

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

Vajrapani wrote:Meaningless posturing with no actual substance behind it, like most GDD posts. Killing enemies is a no-brainer for character survival, should we remove everything that allows this dangerous, degenerate tactic?


Nice bait. :) But I'd rather discuss my proposal than unrelated topics. If you only want to troll, please do elsewhere.

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Post Wednesday, 14th June 2017, 18:43

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

Slings, throwing and hand crossbow allow to use shields which are great for Ce so there is a clear distinction between bows and other ranged weapons
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Post Wednesday, 14th June 2017, 18:47

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

First of all, you are right, Centaurs using bows is a no-brainer. (Same has HO with axes, Mf with polarms, etc.)

Considering that Ce are the strongest species already, it seems a bit over the top to give them 3 aptitude in a skill that can do damage at max range and has plenty of ammo.

I fear that giving Ce +2 in all ranged skills would be a buff, suddenly making throwing even better than it already is. I suppose it would make me more likely to use a shield, at least later. It would boost all non-ranged weapon starts. Also, the bow aptitude isn't quite as good as say ranged or xbows, because you can typically train fewer skill levels of it.

So, I'm against buffing Ce, but in favour of making aptitudes more even, so perhaps +1 in all ranged skills is fine.

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Lair Larrikin

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Post Wednesday, 14th June 2017, 18:53

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Slings, throwing and hand crossbow allow to use shields which are great for Ce so there is a clear distinction between bows and other ranged weapons


That's true, but I guess would be much more relevant if Centaurs would not be so fast. In practice they have less need for a shield as they are so great at kiting.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Wednesday, 14th June 2017, 18:53

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:First of all, you are right, Centaurs using bows is a no-brainer. (Same has HO with axes, Mf with polarms, etc.)

Considering that Ce are the strongest species already, it seems a bit over the top to give them 3 aptitude in a skill that can do damage at max range and has plenty of ammo.

I fear that giving Ce +2 in all ranged skills would be a buff, suddenly making throwing even better than it already is. I suppose it would make me more likely to use a shield, at least later. It would boost all non-ranged weapon starts. Also, the bow aptitude isn't quite as good as say ranged or xbows, because you can typically train fewer skill levels of it.

So, I'm against buffing Ce, but in favour of making aptitudes more even, so perhaps +1 in all ranged skills is fine.


Yes, agreed. +1 would also be fine in my opinion.
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Post Wednesday, 14th June 2017, 19:27

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

I think that the problem with Ce is that it's a race built around kiting, and kiting is boring. I think they should be turned into Yaktaurs, given normal speed, and get equal bows/crossbows aptitudes.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Wednesday, 14th June 2017, 19:59

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

Shtopit wrote:I think that the problem with Ce is that it's a race built around kiting, and kiting is boring. I think they should be turned into Yaktaurs, given normal speed, and get equal bows/crossbows aptitudes.


Maybe even better! I like it. It would also nerf polearms compared to the other melee choices and make shields more interesting.

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Post Wednesday, 14th June 2017, 20:04

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

Centaur melee is actually pretty strong and I don't think having one fast/ranged species is bad. Sp are not so good with ranged and Fe can't ranged.

The current design idea seems like a decent niche, but I acknowledge that many, especially experienced, players probably find kiting annoying. It does require a lot of additional button pressing for one thing and makes the game feel quite slow for another.

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Post Wednesday, 14th June 2017, 20:52

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:First of all, you are right, Centaurs using bows is a no-brainer. (Same has HO with axes, Mf with polarms, etc.)

Considering that Ce are the strongest species already, it seems a bit over the top to give them 3 aptitude in a skill that can do damage at max range and has plenty of ammo.

I fear that giving Ce +2 in all ranged skills would be a buff, suddenly making throwing even better than it already is. I suppose it would make me more likely to use a shield, at least later. It would boost all non-ranged weapon starts. Also, the bow aptitude isn't quite as good as say ranged or xbows, because you can typically train fewer skill levels of it.

So, I'm against buffing Ce, but in favour of making aptitudes more even, so perhaps +1 in all ranged skills is fine.
I think bows are better than throwing in general at the moment, even with equal apts and the large torso shield bonus. Throwing does significantly more damage at maxed skills, sure, but bows do more damage with more accuracy throughout at least the first half of the game, with fewer ammo problems (stones are awful without high skill). Getting to take advantage of enchantment is really good.

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Post Thursday, 15th June 2017, 01:47

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Centaur melee is actually pretty strong and I don't think having one fast/ranged species is bad. Sp are not so good with ranged and Fe can't ranged.

The current design idea seems like a decent niche, but I acknowledge that many, especially experienced, players probably find kiting annoying. It does require a lot of additional button pressing for one thing and makes the game feel quite slow for another.

I disagree about Sp not being good with ranged. They can kite stuff even better than Ce and have a great slings aptitude and a good crossbows aptitude. They are bad at throwing and bows in particular (by virtue of not being able to use javelins or longbows) but they can wield a fustibalus, arbalest, or triple crossbow just fine. Yeah, the damage will be worse because your strength will be lower but Spriggan ranged ends up being pretty great regardless.
Centaur's real niche is being fast while also having good HP and decent AC, which just ends up making them overpowered. It's not easy to nerf that in a way that doesn't make them even less fun, either. I'm convinced that their design just doesn't really work.

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Post Thursday, 15th June 2017, 11:11

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

Sp can wield triple crossbows? That does't sound broken at all...

Perhaps Ce could get a 'dash' ability that causes exhaustion, like a short swiftness buff. That way you wouldn't be able to kite indefinitely, but still retain some of the strength of the species. It's a bit of a bandaid of course.

I for one like Centaurs and I think they play sufficiently differently from most species to keep them. All the interface issues notwithstanding.

Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 15th June 2017, 14:33

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

Shtopit wrote:I think that the problem with Ce is that it's a race built around kiting, and kiting is boring. I think they should be turned into Yaktaurs, given normal speed, and get equal bows/crossbows aptitudes.


I agree. Then, we should probably compensate by the reduced speed by giving an auxiliary headbutt attack, balance that by disallowing helmets, and make them slightly beefier because yaks are beefier than centaurs.

To conclude:

Move Fighting aptitude to 2
Change all ranged aptitudes to 1
Change speed to normal
Add auxiliary attack (head) and remove helmet slot

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Post Thursday, 15th June 2017, 18:43

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

Let's not do that. Once Ce lose movement speed they will be very similar to a number of other species. At that point I would argue for removal, because species differentiated by aux attacks and aptitudes are boring in my view. (I realise that there are quite a few examples of those...)

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Post Thursday, 15th June 2017, 19:08

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

Well, the idea of a race based on repositioning has already been taken by Barachians, and they seem to do it pretty well. I think that having a normal speed race with good ranged aptitudes as distinctive point wouldn't hurt, now that high elves are gone. Ce also have that shield bonus thing, so choosing between slings, crossbows and bows would be interesting.
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Post Thursday, 15th June 2017, 20:36

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

I don't think spriggans can use triple crossbows. Kobolds can, though. Spriggans are great with ranged attacks in general, it doesn't have to come from a ranged <weapon> to count. I will always remember after winning a game, picking SpCj for a streak and having the most horrible and boring and unfun game of crawl I've ever played, which had the highest turncount of any game I've ever played (145k), higher than a melee naga monk which was my third ever win, made horrible strategic choices (necromutation), and got 12 more runes all in 141k turns.

Kiting will always be an issue with any fast race. Felids manage to avoid the problem with ranged weaponry, but it's of course still there with magic. I dislike playing Sp/Ce for this reason, although felids don't bother me as much. I would most likely be trying to get statue form on a felid anyways, because I like having AC and don't really care about the speed.

That being said, I think Ce has a role to play as an easy race which teaches about crawl's time system and the importance of speed. Since it's geared towards newbies I don't mind the high bows aptitude, but lowering it wouldn't really make that much of a difference to the race either, so it would survive the nerf.

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Post Friday, 16th June 2017, 18:15

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Let's not do that. Once Ce lose movement speed they will be very similar to a number of other species. At that point I would argue for removal, because species differentiated by aux attacks and aptitudes are boring in my view. (I realise that there are quite a few examples of those...)


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Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 17th June 2017, 03:51

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

Shtopit wrote:Well, the idea of a race based on repositioning has already been taken by Barachians, and they seem to do it pretty well. I think that having a normal speed race with good ranged aptitudes as distinctive point wouldn't hurt, now that high elves are gone. Ce also have that shield bonus thing, so choosing between slings, crossbows and bows would be interesting.


Yes, agreed. I also think there is design space for a normal speed race with good ranged aptitudes. The idea to replace centaurs with equally beefy normal speed yaktaurs and +1 apt for all ranged weapons seems best to me. It gets rid of all the cheese of the normal centaur playstyle (bows as ranged no brainer, polearms as melee no brainer), but should still serve as a distinct and pretty powerful choice leaving options (beefy, good ranged vs cheap shields).

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Post Saturday, 17th June 2017, 06:47

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

Without faster movement speed Ce could have all ranged aptitudes at +3 and still be weaker than they are now, so I don't see the need to equalise at a lower level.

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Post Saturday, 17th June 2017, 06:57

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

If the most unique thing about Ce is fast movement - something that two other species have starting from D:1 (Sp and Fe), and two more species get upon reaching XL3 and XL5 (Vp and Te respectively) - then maybe Ce isn't a unique species in the first place.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 17th June 2017, 07:31

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

I don't think there should be such a fast + beefy species with such good ranged aptitudes. It just makes kiting too trivial and pigeonholes into exactly one build. But in the end this is more a problem of permanently fast player species than centaurs in particular. Probably a swiftness-like system to allow specific species bursts to flee would allow for a better balance as it is not permanent and could be limited to fewer tactical uses.

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Post Saturday, 17th June 2017, 21:19

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

duvessa wrote:If the most unique thing about Ce is fast movement - something that two other species have starting from D:1 (Sp and Fe), and two more species get upon reaching XL3 and XL5 (Vp and Te respectively) - then maybe Ce isn't a unique species in the first place.

I suppose the general argument is that they don't all have the same speed.

I think vampires are different enough that they don't need a speed bonus.

Tengu don't need a speed bonus either, and are in my opinion a bit of a lost cause as a species.

That would then leave us with two fast species, one fragile, super-speedy, sneaky and good with some magics, the other buff and good with ranged weapons. That seems alright to me, as far as the spread of species is concerned.

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Post Monday, 19th June 2017, 18:26

Re: Equalize Centaur Ranged Aptitudes

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Tengu don't need a speed bonus either, and are in my opinion a bit of a lost cause as a species.


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