remove 12 runes of zot


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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 09:56

remove 12 runes of zot

1.most user (include dev ,semi dev) enjoy 3runes game
2. Most people are proud of winrate, streaks
(not high score)
This is true. don't be liar
The presence of the 12 runes only ruins the game design
This fact annoys 15 rune users
So remove 12 runes of zot and make challange system(like nethack conduct system)
because you do not think the high game score is great.

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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 10:00

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

No.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 10:14

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

no 
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/papilio.html

Done 15-rune wins with all playable species, backgrounds, gods!

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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 14:40

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

I believe most players don't care about high score.
It is good to have a flexible system, then you can choose what you care about and act accordingly.
Also having many runes allows to have decisions which runes to get with weak characters.
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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 20:00

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

Pan and Hells being drastically shortened would do wonders for their popularity, I don't know why devs can't agree if/how they should do it.
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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 21:29

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

scorpionwarrior wrote:Pan and Hells being drastically shortened would do wonders for their popularity, I don't know why devs can't agree if/how they should do it.


Surely any change which can be described as "drastic" could reasonably be expected to take some time, both in conceptualization and execution? Last I checked the devwiki has some fairly extensive notes on possible plans for reforming the extended game so I'll expect it'll happen at some point, but given how even minor changes are prone to causing outrage and debate, it's not surprising that the devs should take there time considering the best path.
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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 21:47

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

Dioneo wrote:
scorpionwarrior wrote:Pan and Hells being drastically shortened would do wonders for their popularity, I don't know why devs can't agree if/how they should do it.


Surely any change which can be described as "drastic" could reasonably be expected to take some time, both in conceptualization and execution? Last I checked the devwiki has some fairly extensive notes on possible plans for reforming the extended game so I'll expect it'll happen at some point, but given how even minor changes are prone to causing outrage and debate, it's not surprising that the devs should take there time considering the best path.


With Pan there's already a solution that could work for all players, Pan lord floors will show up every 4 floors or something until they are killed, and the weirdos who like grinding Pan forever can continue to do so. Sounds much less controversial to me than removing popular archetypes from char selection.
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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 22:15

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

scorpionwarrior wrote:With Pan there's already a solution that could work for all players, Pan lord floors will show up every 4 floors or something until they are killed, and the weirdos who like grinding Pan forever can continue to do so. Sounds much less controversial to me than removing popular archetypes from char selection.


Given that the extended game is already entirely optional, I don't feel there needs to be much hurry in addressing it. Those who find it uninteresting can simply skip it for now until consensus is reached on how to change it (if at all). I also wouldn't bet on it being non-controversial, but I suppose we'll see about that.

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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 23:48

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

Extended should not be easy either. Ideally, it should be extremely difficult to clear all of extended. Zot is 3 runes for a reason, to give people options on where to go based on their race/class combo, skills, and current gear that can mitigate dangers.

15 runes is mostly for exploration not winning the game.
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 01:48

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

Dioneo wrote:
scorpionwarrior wrote:With Pan there's already a solution that could work for all players, Pan lord floors will show up every 4 floors or something until they are killed, and the weirdos who like grinding Pan forever can continue to do so. Sounds much less controversial to me than removing popular archetypes from char selection.


Given that the extended game is already entirely optional, I don't feel there needs to be much hurry in addressing it. Those who find it uninteresting can simply skip it for now until consensus is reached on how to change it (if at all). I also wouldn't bet on it being non-controversial, but I suppose we'll see about that.


It's like you didn't even read my post. Do you have any specific critiques for my suggestion?
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 03:24

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

I think the main problem with extended is that little differentiation exists between various postgame areas. That's why almost every "fix extended" suggestion involves shortening it.

I mean, the Lair roulette has plenty of interesting situations (you aren't high-level yet so your offenses/defenses may be suboptimal, each branch has a specific set of threats to prepare for, there are plenty of ranged/elemental/fast monsters that may overwhelm you if not taken seriously, and if you're playing a sub-par character there will be certain enemies that you just plain can't kill one-on-one and must avoid/expend consumables on), Slime/Abyss/Vaults have unique layouts that make them easy for some characters and difficult for others (creating a need for character-dependent judgement on which to tackle), and even Tomb has a niche as a slugfest that sounds incredibly tough at face value but can be tackled very consistently through a wide range of tactics (Silence, Kiku, Necromutation, Stone Form, just being a tough dude with some rN and possibly Dispel Undead etc.)

But once you have a countermeasure against torment and hellfire, Pan/Hell may well be the same level 50 times over. Which is why plans to shorten extended is good, since the player shouldn't have to go through 30 floors of chaff before arriving at the actually threatening levels in branch ends/special lord floors. Another, less-appreciated way to fix extended is by adding branch-specific threats such as doom hounds, iron giants, hell sentinels and shard shrikes to cut down on the demon snoozefest, though the success of these particular additions is questionable (I'm looking at you, doom hounds).

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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 04:11

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

Croases wrote:I think the main problem with extended is that little differentiation exists between various postgame areas. That's why almost every "fix extended" suggestion involves shortening it.


No. It has everything to do with players having to go through 20-50 floors of Pan (the long tail goes even longer than that if you're unlucky!) to get the 5 runes. Devs have already worked hard to make Pan harder and more varied, they have done nothing to make it less of a slog.

Optional areas should not have the potential to be as long or longer than the main game, meaningful character development already halted around mid-Dungeon. Abyss has the same problem, it is very frustrating to players who like the anti-grinding aspects of stone soup.
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 04:25

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

scorpionwarrior wrote:No. It has everything to do with players having to go through 20-50 floors of Pan (the long tail goes even longer than that if you're unlucky!) to get the 5 runes. Devs have already worked hard to make Pan harder and more varied, they have done nothing to make it less of a slog.
Optional areas should not have the potential to be as long or longer than the main game, meaningful character development already halted around mid-Dungeon. Abyss has the same problem, it is very frustrating to players who like the anti-grinding aspects of stone soup.


It is possible to fix extended without shortening it, some games have characters reach max possible level before half content is explored and then people struggle with late content which requires player skill.
I mean we don't get complaints about zigs being too long, do we? That's because they become very hard very fast, we might try something like that. Extended feels too long because there is very little difference in danger between 6th and 14th run, so that's 9 runes of about the same difficulty.
Long game along is not a problem, a long boring game is.
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 04:36

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

I don't have much faith in your theory that a game which is already too long will feel less long if it requires even more time investment and thought to survive. crawl was made to be endlessly replayable, you can't have it both ways if you want a majority of people to actually care about optional content. I don't play cratecrawl or hellcrawl but I can understand why it's a thing.
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 05:16

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

Endless replayability is a myth in crawl IMHO. It is very rare to have synergy between species, gods and spells (and backgrounds are completely useless for replayability due to game design) so once you won every species, god and tried every spell, you will start feeling "I have already played it before" in next games. That's why people keep bringing new species and gods, they are really unique.
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 05:45

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Endless replayability is a myth in crawl IMHO. It is very rare to have synergy between species, gods and spells (and backgrounds are completely useless for replayability due to game design) so once you won every species, god and tried every spell, you will start feeling "I have already played it before" in next games. That's why people keep bringing new species and gods, they are really unique.

I can't think of a game with *endless* replayability, but Crawl certainly has a lot of replay value. But there are archetypes that play very similarly. For example, I play all my octopodes as UC + eventual Statue Form. So the backgrounds become an early game difficulty setting. After statform, UC melee solves every challenge in the game. Yet, I still enjoy playing an occasional octopode.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 06:02

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:I can't think of a game with *endless* replayability


Well, literally endless one is not required but let me provide a simple example from Age of wonders 3:
1) There is Warlords class with great units, one of them is berserker.
2) There are 9 races.

Tirgan Berserker is unique, it has a Punce ability, which allows to jump 3 tiles once per fight, the attack hits target once without retaliation and puts Tigran Berserker in defense mode.
Frostling Berserker is unique, it partially loses some physical attack but gets some frost attack. This fixes main problem of berserkers - lack of elemental attack.
Draconian Berserker gets Improved Wall Climbing. This makes the berserker really rgeat for attacking cities.
Orcish Berserker gets War Cry, the ability greatly increases attack once per fight.
Dwarven Berserker gets Projectile Resistance making it extremely tough vs enemy archers etc.

Basically all those racial units result in different tactics despite you use Berserker all the time (or you can ignore Berserker completely if you want)
Now add other class units, racial units (Elves have nice archers which can be protected by those berserkers), heroes (I use mods where every hero can select one of 3 professions and one of 3 "mods" which open completely different and unique traits for each hero on every level), ability to have units from different races be part of one stack, ability to upgrade cities to have extra either good or evil units (provided by another mod), random maps etc., specializations (adept air, master creation, expander to name a few) and you get almost endless replayability.

TL/DR: Crawl almost lacks synergy and it makes 20 species and 30 gods result in 50 combos instead of potential 600.
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 06:05

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:I can't think of a game with *endless* replayability, but Crawl certainly has a lot of replay value. But there are archetypes that play very similarly. For example, I play all my octopodes as UC + eventual Statue Form. So the backgrounds become an early game difficulty setting. After statform, UC melee solves every challenge in the game. Yet, I still enjoy playing an occasional octopode.
you could always try playing conj focused octopode, many ring slots for int/wiz/enhancer rings can make for a different sort of blasty game.

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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 06:10

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Age of wonders 3:


Okay I know it's off topic, but holy shit I love Age of Wonders 3.

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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 06:28

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

ZipZipskins wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Age of wonders 3:

Okay I know it's off topic, but holy shit I love Age of Wonders 3.

This makes me want to try it. Is it better than Civ IV? I'm really out of date when it comes to computer games.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 06:31

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

It's very different from Civ IV. I enjoy it as much I'd say. The combat has a much greater focus than Civ in general. Age of Wonders does a really solid job at fusing tactics and strategy, but the empire building ball is in Civ's court IMO.

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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 06:40

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
scorpionwarrior wrote:Long game along is not a problem, a long boring game is.


I guess this is the crux of our disagreement. Either way, the way dcss development is going does not favor your idea of a longer rpg with a more shallow exp/higher monster hp curve, dungeon and branches are going to be cut even more and "extended endgame" needs to be cut along with it.
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 06:47

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

It's funny that other tactical games are being mentioned in this thread, I've been playing Path of Exile the last couple months and it has many of the same problems as crawl (ie. retreating and kiting is too powerful, hp and mana shield and dps are much stronger than armour\dodge\block) It even has a weird lategame way to bypass defenses like hellfire, along with equally strange ways to avoid it.
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 07:03

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

scorpionwarrior wrote:I guess this is the crux of our disagreement. Either way, the way dcss development is going does not favor your idea of a longer rpg with a more shallow exp/higher monster hp curve, dungeon and branches are going to be cut even more and "extended endgame" needs to be cut along with it.


I have quite the opposite impression. Devs are trying to preserve crawl length, they don't want it to be a coffee-break rogue-like (and personally I like it a lot, I don't enjoy those games).

scorpionwarrior wrote:It's funny that other tactical games are being mentioned in this thread, I've been playing Path of Exile the last couple months and it has many of the same problems as crawl (ie. retreating and kiting is too powerful, hp and mana shield and dps are much stronger than armour\dodge\block)


True, I stopped playing path of exile after I realized I spend 80% of my time on inventory management and 19% more on fighting popcorn ;) Also its strategy guides are full of "what areas are most efficient for grinding".
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 07:18

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

There are only so many times I can use the same attack on the same group of 100 trash mobs on the same background hoping and praying for a 1/1000 chance of something to occur before I'm done

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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 07:19

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

tbf the strategy guide grinding thing doesn't really exist now because lategame was overhauled and there's plenty to do there now, but you're right about everything else.
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 07:33

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

VeryAngryFelid wrote:True, I stopped playing path of exile after I realized I spend 80% of my time on inventory management


Path of Exile FR: as soon as you start moving items in your inventory around, "Korobeiniki" begins to play
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 07:40

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Endless replayability is a myth in crawl IMHO. It is very rare to have synergy between species, gods and spells (and backgrounds are completely useless for replayability due to game design) so once you won every species, god and tried every spell, you will start feeling "I have already played it before" in next games. That's why people keep bringing new species and gods, they are really unique.


Yes, I have ~40 wins, I know what you mean. But I'm not sure it's a good thing for people who have already played the game to the point of being completely sick of it, to dictate how the game should be made and played. The experience you and I had getting to that point (I admit you're a much better player than I'll ever be) is worth preserving, you know?
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Post Sunday, 25th December 2016, 07:51

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

I think it's too easy to brush off valid criticisms of extended with arguments like "Well, they can just go win." or "Well, most players don't get that far in the first place."

Extended is, and has been, a hot mess that could certainly use some more attention.


Abyss is at a pretty good place since its various reworks. I think the risk/reward isn't tempting enough for players to consider diving to Abyss:5 (possibly excepting speedruns), and maybe that could use some work, but overall this branch is pretty solid.

Tomb is awful. Tomb:3 is an exercise in stairdancing that just doesn't work. The branch was built around noise mechanics that go out the window with noisemaking monsters present, it's been changed time and again, and it comes together to create something so tedious that it's a wonder it still exists. Tomb's floor layouts are as much a reason for this as its monsterset spells -- an approach similar to Desolation of Salt might work better here (or at least enlarging Tomb:3 and cutting paths [portals?] through the corridors throughout the branch), but at this point why bother? Tomb has been present for enough versions to have a fair shake at improvement, might just as well cut it, either with the purpose of shortening the game or at least with the intention of making space for another theoretical branch.

Pan's length is fine for anyone who has a fixation on enabling infinite grinding, but the Pan runes could certainly be made to spawn earlier to satisfy 15-rune players who don't want to grind. (Possibly guaranteed as the first five floors if all other runes are already picked up?)

Hell's branch length is a relic that's a bit out of touch with recent versions of Crawl. Cutting hell branch depths in half (with an increase to the rate of hell effects, if necessary to retain similar balance) would be a pretty solid improvement. The accepted/intended strategy is to run through those floors anyway! There's no need for the gauntlet to be 28 floors deep.

On top of all of the above, there's the fact that most of extended was originally balanced assuming the player would have access to some form of Haste. I don't feel much need to dwell on this point since it's obvious that the problems inherent to that are acknowledged by the devteam -- but it's also true that making extended more difficult (through reduction of access to Haste, or through other changes) simultaneously *slows the gameplay down*. If these floors are going to become harder, their branch depths should also be shortened to avoid exacerbating postgame's pacing issues.


Anyway, maybe most of this is Hellcrawl stuff. (Have Hellcrawl extended branches been shortened yet? I haven't played enough of it to know without checking.)

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Post Tuesday, 27th December 2016, 01:28

Re: remove 12 runes of zot

scorpionwarrior wrote:Yes, I have ~40 wins, I know what you mean. But I'm not sure it's a good thing for people who have already played the game to the point of being completely sick of it, to dictate how the game should be made and played.


Why not? New players can enjoy improved system too. FeBe is quite different from other Felids and from other Berserkers, I don't see how having more characters with unique gameplay will make the game worse.
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