What? Your removed High elves?


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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 09:19

What? Your removed High elves?

What is the reason behind it? You say they were UNINTERESTING, but how can you decide for me interesting they are or not? I liked them because they were good both in magics and melee and I could easily do tornado in v5 or pans with them wearing mid-encumbrance armour like fire dragon armour or pearl. There are some HE greatrace guys. Do you think they played every background with HE because they were so UNINTERESTING? You know, winning every back takes some time. And now when I want to build a hybrid from random background - what choice do I have? Tengu? Too niche, low defences and hp. Human? Nah, low stats and apts. Dg? No god. Maybe DE, they are elves too? -20% hp and -2 apt for fighting, lol. Play Mf and hope for good spellcasting-related randarts? God please no! Return HE!

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 09:30

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

You forgot Sludge Elves...
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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 10:01

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

Elf lover wrote:removed High elves, because they are uninteresting

I lol'd. May be devs don't know about existance of a such fucking interesting race as humans.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 10:11

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 10:48

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

Elf lover wrote:What is the reason behind it? You say they were UNINTERESTING, but how can you decide for me interesting they are or not?
If they are interesting for you, then you can have them in your fork. Nobody forbids that.
I liked them because they were good both in magics and melee
Like tengu, merfolk, draconian, demigod, human, naga, gargoyle, deep dwarf, vine stalker and now also ogre?
and I could easily do tornado in v5 or pans with them wearing mid-encumbrance armour like fire dragon armour or pearl.
Like with almost any other species?
There are some HE greatrace guys.
How does it matter? They already have that accomplishment and nobody takes it away from them (not to mention it is meaningless though). Also, bmfx, johnnyzero and elliptic have a lot of other crawl accomplishments, arguably better ones.
Do you think they played every background with HE because they were so UNINTERESTING? You know, winning every back takes some time.
You know it was done a long time ago, great majority of the games were 3+ years ago? There also were species added in that time frame.
And now when I want to build a hybrid from random background - what choice do I have?
A pretty big one.
Tengu? Too niche, low defences and hp.
Defences better than HE in flight, HP similar when exp apt taken into account. By "niche" you mean "bad at hexes"?
Human? Nah, low stats and apts.
Rather average. Faster levelling. Way better survivability.
Dg? No god.
Yeah, that's the point. Still can do better than HE at most backgrounds.
Maybe DE, they are elves too? -20% hp and -2 apt for fighting, lol.
That's a lot like HE. Except faster leveling and better magic.
Play Mf and hope for good spellcasting-related randarts?
No need to, Mf are fine.
God please no! Return HE!
HE are the only species that can make a word with a wanderer. I see no better reason for them existing.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 11:20

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

There is big boring post I dont even want to read but

HE are the only species that can make a word with a wanderer. I see no better reason for them existing.


Your own opinion is not a reason to remove entire species from a game. So if you are ok with that lets merge ogre and trolls- they are both large, nagas and centaurs - they are both hybrid species. Lets remove tengu - they are UNINTERESTING imo and statistically. Like humans. If you dont like playing HE - dont play, but dont remove them because there are some people playing them. HE got best stats in game after Dg and their spellcasting apts are far better than average, so they can be powerful hybrids regardless of (un)randarts. Other species are not so versatile so u cant really pick a human fighter and have 10% tornado fail rate to pans. You can if you are stubborn enough though, but in normal game you`ll just go full tab because tornado needs too much investment with 8 starting int.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 11:54

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

I didn't mean to be interesting. I'll leave that to you. I choose being reasonable instead.
Elf lover wrote:Your own opinion is not a reason to remove entire species from a game
It's not. Lack of reason to be there in the first place may be, though.
Elf lover wrote:So if you are ok with that lets merge ogre and trolls- they are both large
That would be far from unacceptable, though they differ more than HE and Te/Mf/DE.
Elf lover wrote:nagas and centaurs - they are both hybrid species
Move speed is kind of a big difference, you know (now, at least).
Elf lover wrote:Lets remove tengu - they are UNINTERESTING imo and statistically
I wonder how would you define statistically interesting species.
Elf lover wrote:If you dont like playing HE - dont play
I did play them now and then. That's far beside the point.
Elf lover wrote:dont remove them because there are some people playing them
They can always play something else. At least, as along as they are crawl players and not just high elf lovers.
Elf lover wrote:HE got best stats in game after Dg
Doesn't exactly make them stand out.
Elf lover wrote:their spellcasting apts are far better than average
This even less so.
Elf lover wrote:so they can be powerful hybrids regardless of (un)randarts
Many others can be just as powerful, if not more (hint: HE aren't exactly a power choice species).
Elf lover wrote:Other species are not so versatile
Can be more. Try using that awesome randart chain mail you found on a HEAr or something.
Elf lover wrote:u cant really pick a human fighter and have 10% tornado fail rate to pans
If you wear a mid-light armour and worship Veh or Ash or Chei then yes, you can.
Elf lover wrote:You can if you are stubborn enough
The same can be said about defending HE's existence.
Elf lover wrote:but in normal game you`ll just go full tab because tornado needs too much investment with 8 starting int
I'll do that, but the reason is convenience and preference, not int. I'll do that on a HEWz of Sif, too:
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.15/st ... 122524.txt

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:01

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

Now it's the time!
Finally we can see if people love more puny elves than mighty dwarves!
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:16

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

stickyfingers wrote:I choose being reasonable instead. Lack of reason to be there in the first place may be, though.

Thats the greatest reason to remove something that doesnt cause inconvenience and is needed to a group of players.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:24

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

GJ manipulating what I wrote.
Elf lover wrote:doesnt cause inconvenience
For you? Maybe. I guess you have no idea what software maintenance is and it doesn't surprise me.
Elf lover wrote:is needed to a group of players
Air and food are needed, high elves aren't.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:31

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

stickyfingers wrote:That would be far from unacceptable, though they differ more than HE and Te/Mf/DE.

Not too much. Large difference is seen from superficial flavour differences. One could flavour Trolls as feral Ogres and everyone would begin complaining that this is stupid(which it actually is). But when they are green it's easy. Contrary to the saying.
Tengu are just fragile flying elves.
Merfolks are poking swimming elves.
Deep elves... are fragile fragile casting elves.
If it's not about stats, then it would make more sense to delete deep elves, but then pure casting niche would open. Also Kobolds and Halflings aren't particularly interesting too, not mentioning Gargoyles, but they're another story.
Originality? Djinns were anything but unoriginal and boring, but where are they now?
One might as well learn that changes don't necessarily need to make sense.
Last edited by Orange on Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:33

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

Elf lover wrote:For you? Maybe. I guess you have no idea what software maintenance is and it doesn't surprise me.

And what? So lets make crawl like you enter dungeon and there is orb in front of you. There will be almost no software maintenance. One race is not that big deal.

Elf lover wrote:Air and food are needed, high elves aren't.

What is it about? You think you can decide for me and other HE-players?

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:43

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

Orange wrote:Tengu are just fragile flying elves.
Merfolks are poking swimming elves.
Deep elves... are fragile fragile casting elves.


:D That almost sounds like in the webcomic Erfworld. Can we have a rc-file option that turns every species into a subtype of elves, please?

deep dwarves -> sturdy elves
centaurs -> riding elves
felids -> neko elves
demigods -> noble elves
nagas -> slithering elves
trolls -> angry elves
ghouls -> hungry elves
gargoyles -> ugly elves
spriggans -> fairy elves
mummies -> ancient elves

etc.
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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:48

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

ogres -> big elves

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:51

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

Elf lover wrote:And what? So lets make crawl like you enter dungeon and there is orb in front of you. There will be almost no software maintenance. One race is not that big deal.

It is you who said it causes no inconvenience whatsoever, and that's proven false. What gives you the right to declare this "not that big deal"?
Last edited by archaeo on Thursday, 15th December 2016, 21:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 12:55

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

Elf lover wrote:What is it about? You think you can decide for me and other HE-players?


No, but devs can.

Players can agree with a specific change or not.
In the second case they can complain without providing real, good motivations from game-design prospective (and nothing will certainly change), they can cope with that, they can try to understand why devs think that is a good idea (not every commit is good, balance or design wise, eh), they can play older versions or they can fork and maintain their own version.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 13:01

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

stickyfingers wrote:
Elf lover wrote:And what? So lets make crawl like you enter dungeon and there is orb in front of you. There will be almost no software maintenance. One race is not that big deal.

It is you who said it causes no inconvenience whatsoever, and that's proven false. What gives you the right to declare this "not that big deal"?


Ok you won, I dont want to continue this pointless boring debate anymore. Feel free to consider youself
reasonable



In the second case they can complain without providing real, good motivations from game-design prospective (and nothing will certainly change), they can cope with that, they can try to understand why devs think that is a good idea (not every commit is good, balance or design wise, eh), they can play older versions or they can fork and maintain their own version.

Sadly, I have no interest in offline crawl, so the only option for me is to leave (or greatly reduce my time on crawl servers to spectating others)
Last edited by archaeo on Thursday, 15th December 2016, 21:14, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: mod edit

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 13:38

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

No more strawmen, appeals to own preferences and willful ignorance? What a pity.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 13:57

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

This thread is great, I was just waiting

Imo bring back high elves, make them start with a joint, and every 420 auts they stop for a few auts to toke blaze it up MAYBE THAT WOULD BE DIFFERENT ENOUGH for you murdevs (which is murder plus devs)

edit: OH WAIT OH SHIT killlller idea man, also, after a little bit of all that you get the munchies and you gotta eat, and if you encounter a stone giant you can pass off your doob and turn it into a stoned giant and it becomes pacified. I will personally pro bono mspaint red eyes into the tile and console maybe it could just turn into like... a red i, idefk how consoles work
Last edited by ZipZipskins on Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 14:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 14:00

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

Yeah I also think there is no valid reason to remove HE

commit said

High elves were a relatively uninteresting species in terms of gameplay,
feeling somewhat like tengu but with weapon specialization like merfolk.
Their theme originates from Tolkien, a source of lore that crawl is
trying to borrow less from these days. Their gorgeous blonde hair not
withstanding, this particular Tolkien reference wasn't particularly
interesting.



first, I wondering why they think HE as uninteresting. yes, HE has some common with Te and Mf. but also has some differences. like very high stats, ranged weapon apts, specialized on long blade(it is meaningful cause devs add riposte now)... I really don't understand why HE seems tedious. it already have enough unique features which can make differences in gameplay.

second, I think dev forgot that HE is only feasible species who can be rangedwepon-spellcaster(to shortly, Arcane archer) playstyle. there is AM background which is encouraged to be that role, and not even start with AM, you can easily become arcane archer with HE's unique apts. I think it is really crazy idea that changing Og apt to add unprecedented giant-spellcaster, but removing only species who has been occupied arcane archer niche.

also they now cancel basa-blahblah. there is no reason to remove HE now.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 14:30

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

Elf lover wrote:Sadly, I have no interest in offline crawl, so the only option for me is to leave (or greatly reduce my time on crawl servers to spectating others)
sometimes you read something which you absolutely cannot understand or relate to on any level.

"I like playing this game a lot, but if one of the 28~ different character options which is somewhat different from several others which already exist is taken out I no longer have any interest"

how can your interest in playing a game completely depend on 1 specific flavor of elf existing in it? it's not like they play very differently from other spellcasters. this is some dwarf shit all over again
cosmonaut wrote:first, I wondering why they think HE as uninteresting. yes, HE has some common with Te and Mf. but also has some differences. like very high stats, ranged weapon apts, specialized on long blade(it is meaningful cause devs add riposte now)...
In what way are specialized weapon apts "meaningful"? Having one weapon type much higher than the others just pushes the player into playing just one way while equal weapon apts gives the player more options. It just makes different high elf games more samey because there's less weapon variety.
Last edited by Shard1697 on Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 14:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 14:36

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

Claiming that they're the "only feasible" species for AM is outright ridiculous. Species that have good apts for a launcher + hexes: DE, Dr, Fo, Hu, Ko. And there are of course many more species that work just fine for AM (and are much stronger than HE were). HE weren''t even popular for AM looking back to 0.17:
  Code:
 <gammafunk> !lg * am won !trog recentish s=crace%
<Sequell> 243 games for * (am won !trog recentish): 27x Centaur (11.11%), 21x Ogre (8.64%), 16x Troll (6.58%), 13x Tengu (5.35%), 13x Gargoyle (5.35%), 12x Ghoul (4.94%), 12x Demonspawn (4.94%), 12x Vine Stalker (4.94%), 11x Formicid (4.53%), 10x Minotaur (4.12%), 10x Kobold (4.12%), 9x Draconian (3.70%), 9x Deep Elf (3.70%), 9x Halfling (3.70%), 9x Naga (3.70%), 8x Demigod (3.29%), 8x Deep Dwarf (3.29%), 7x Vampire (2.88%), 7x High Elf (2.88%), 5x Spriggan (2.06%), 4x Mummy (1.65%), 4x Human (1.65%), 3x Hill Orc (1.23%), 2x Octopode (0.82%), 2x Merfolk (0.82%)

Also the basa-blahblah thing wasn't really cancelled, we made Og similar to what Ba were, and HE removal didn't depend on what was done for Ba/Og anyhow.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 15:20

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

stickyfingers wrote:I'll do that, but the reason is convenience and preference, not int. I'll do that on a HEWz of Sif, too:
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.15/st ... 122524.txt


Sorry for offtopic, but this morgue cannot be used as an argument. You quaffed might and brilliance while wearing ring mail with Str 7. Nobody knows if your spells were castable prior to that.
Also I greatly dislike "go create your own fork" argument as it allows to do wrong things and still feel fine.

Personally I don't mind removing HE, it is boring compared to Ds and not as tabbing as HO/Mi.

Edit. I changed my mind after reading cosmonaut's comment. HEAM was great indeed, HE with Tornado, long blades and longbow was fun too so HE does have some unique niche.
Last edited by VeryAngryFelid on Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 16:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 15:28

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

It's not an argument, just an anecdote. That said, you can just look at action counts or skills.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 16:12

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

intense
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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 17:12

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

To be perfectly honest, I'm going to miss hill giants more than I'm going to miss high elves.

RIP hill giant. You had no fancy helmet, nor two heads nor did you wield any fancy elemental powers and whatnot. You kept it honest... You were truly a giant's giant.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 21:40

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

I thought this might be in the works. I never agreed with the rationale, I don't agree that the other listed hybrid spellcaster species replace HE. TE and HE have signficantly different aptitudes and TE lose slots. Claiming that Naga with slow 2 are a swap-in for HE is asinine. Claiming Dg are a swap-in when they cannot use gods is also asinine. Finally people easily glance over the fact that HE have amazing stats and one of the best dex focused species and far outstrip DE in this regard

You can make any species work in this game. You can make any species play hybrid. But no HE's are not replaced by other species. I doubt this will be listened to, people's minds are set and another species has "elf" in its name so its a done deal.

Hopefully they remove Minotaur soon because Hill orcs exist, they are just Orcs with Horns that can't worship Beogh anyway. Deleting them would probably be for the best. You can do everything a Mi can on an HO so eff em.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 22:58

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

certified real elf lover here. OP is a goddamned fraud who, in reality, has never felt the loving embrace of an elf. they are like your one friend in middle school who said he had a girlfriend who goes to another school, or your one friend in high school who insisted that he wasn't a virgin, or your one roommate in college who denied pissing in the shower.

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Post Wednesday, 14th December 2016, 23:02

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

I like the idea of removing Minotaurs, because they are monodirectional and weapons with cleave and reposte made their headbutt superfluous, but that's a story for another time.
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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 02:12

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

Just play a human with an amulet of harm.

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 03:16

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

gammafunk wrote:Claiming that they're the "only feasible" species for AM is outright ridiculous. Species that have good apts for a launcher + hexes: DE, Dr, Fo, Hu, Ko. And there are of course many more species that work just fine for AM (and are much stronger than HE were). HE weren''t even popular for AM looking back to 0.17:
  Code:
 <gammafunk> !lg * am won !trog recentish s=crace%
<Sequell> 243 games for * (am won !trog recentish): 27x Centaur (11.11%), 21x Ogre (8.64%), 16x Troll (6.58%), 13x Tengu (5.35%), 13x Gargoyle (5.35%), 12x Ghoul (4.94%), 12x Demonspawn (4.94%), 12x Vine Stalker (4.94%), 11x Formicid (4.53%), 10x Minotaur (4.12%), 10x Kobold (4.12%), 9x Draconian (3.70%), 9x Deep Elf (3.70%), 9x Halfling (3.70%), 9x Naga (3.70%), 8x Demigod (3.29%), 8x Deep Dwarf (3.29%), 7x Vampire (2.88%), 7x High Elf (2.88%), 5x Spriggan (2.06%), 4x Mummy (1.65%), 4x Human (1.65%), 3x Hill Orc (1.23%), 2x Octopode (0.82%), 2x Merfolk (0.82%)

Also the basa-blahblah thing wasn't really cancelled, we made Og similar to what Ba were, and HE removal didn't depend on what was done for Ba/Og anyhow.


I didn't say HE is only feasible for AM, I said HE is only feasible species for "rangedweapon-spellcaster" role. I mentioned AM just to show arcane archer role is not a minor, weird concept but officially accepted play style.

the reason why I used 'only feasible' expression is, only for HE, arcane archer concept is optimized play style.
other species also can be arcane archer but for most of them, it's not optimized choice. it is just concept play or challenge game for advanced player.
but for HE, with there unique apt, arcane archer becomes one of the best choice to clear. plz don't think only launcher+hex play is possible and feasible on this game. some conj/trl/summ(and other school) spells make ranged weapon really powerful, or use to offset disadvantage. and HE's good apt to magics and bow help to make this combination very fast and easy.(maybe you say Ko, Fo is also good at arcane archer, but Ko is small, crossbow speciallized, and Fo has most unique species feature, stasis. they are not redundant to HE)
HE is not on the same situation where MD was. HE already occupied unique niche.

and it is really hard for me to agree your example to good apt for launcher+hexes. well Ko, Fo is good ranged fighter and DE has crazy apt to hex and other magics so they could be but.. really you consider Hu and Dr is good launcher user?? how flat 0 and some -1 apt could be called "good"? and if follow this logic, you have to say Na, Ds, Dg, VS, Gr, HO, Op... are also "good" for AM. you really want to say like that??
we have to seperate "playable" or "clearable" to "good". they are not same.

also, I think removing HE is related with changing Og and Ba. commit also said
[Especially with Ogres now also having newly-improved casting apts, there's a
very wide range of hybrid/magic-oriented species, with High Elves being
increasingly redundant. -MarvinPA]
doesn't it mean you guys think Og/Ba's change makes HE redundant?
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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 04:20

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

cosmonaut wrote:doesn't it mean you guys think Og/Ba's change makes HE redundant?


Obligatory "comparing medium races to large races isn't good because medium races can utilize much more equipment than large characters can".

Yeah, I'd agree with how they did occupy niches, I liked where they were with the change to long blades, and I'm surprised they were still changed. 0.20 all in all is having a very rocky start to me, and I'm glad they made it through 0.19.
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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 04:32

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

cosmonaut wrote:Plz don't think only launcher+hex play is possible and feasible on this game. some conj/trl/summ(and other school) spells make ranged weapon really powerful, or use to offset disadvantage.


I agree with here.

It's like a side issue, but that's why I think Arcane Marksman is badly designed background.
Arcane marksman should not be a starting for launchers+hexes;
It should be a starting for rather versatile archers who are excel with utilize supportive spells to help their archery.

And along with the original post, HEs were great "archers who are excel with utilize supportive spells to help their archery."
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Done 15-rune wins with all playable species, backgrounds, gods!

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1217

Joined: Sunday, 14th April 2013, 04:01

Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 22:18

Re: What? Your removed High elves?

Before I learned that Hill Orcs were better at being High Elves than HE were, I was really in this camp. I think a large part of the issue is that HE look really unique on paper:

Air aptitude
Non-sucking armor
High long blades
High stat gains
High bow aptitude

when in practice, none of these actually lead to significant gameplay differences. You might be a bit more inclined to pick an AE than a Conjuror, or pick a long blade over a flail, but on a practical level they really aren't that different from humans or hill orcs. Even the stat boosts aren't all that important: an extra point every three levels instead of four means 8 extra points by level 24 instead of 6. It feels a bit better early game, when the difference between level 6 and level 8 can be huge, but it doesn't affect the choices you'll make at that point in the game.
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