New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 365

Joined: Monday, 7th January 2013, 08:22

Post Tuesday, 22nd November 2016, 07:03

New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Image
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Thanks to the help of johnstein and the dev team, the Ieoh Jian Council has fought its way to a hosted branch in CBRO! (play here).

Special thanks to ontoclasm for the ability tiles!

The thread where the idea was discussed is here, although keep in mind the opening post was completely overhauled multiple times, and as such most comments are dated.

EDIT: Latest round of changes (21-12-2016):
  • Stealing is gone.
  • Tiered wrath is gone.
  • Conducts are gone (IJC won't mind or even mention shields, ranged weapons are cool too, but of course they won't manifest flying weapons).
  • Prompts from divine weapons to stay for piety are gone. Instead, Project Weapon has taken a main piety sink role with an increased cost and a slightly more powerful effect.
  • Messages have been streamlined accross the board.

Piety level (-) "Young Dog"
  • Substantially increases the effects of crosstraining. All weapon types + Unarmed Combat crosstrain at 80% rate.
  • Hitting enemies in melee materializes weapons around you. Walking into them allows you to equip them immediately, leaving your current weapon behind. You can have multiple weapons out at once, although the cooldown time between spawns increases with their number. Keep in mind these weapons do not attack normally. They just float passively within your reach.
Piety level (*) "Young Crane"
  • Martial Mastery: You gain the ability to perform acrobatic attacks when moving, depending on the weapon base type. Inspecting any melee weapon will tell you what maneuver you can do with it. These abilities trigger even as you swap weapons, and both the pre-swap and post-swap weapons work (never twice per enemy).
    • Long Blades and Maces/Flails gain Whirlwind: When moving from a space adjacent to a monster to another space adjacent to it, the monster is hit for the weapon's base damage.
    • Short Blades and Axes gain Lunge: When moving directly towards a monster, you perform a powerful lunging attack, hitting for 1.5 times weapon damage. This attack retains all properties of short blade stabbing and axe cleaving.
    • Staves and Polearms gain Pole Vault: When moving directly into a wall or solid obstacle, you vault two spaces in the opposite direction, hitting all enemies around your landing spot. Can't be used if the landing spot is occupied.
Piety level (**) "Young Tiger"
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  • Recall Weapon: (Active, 2 MP, Instant): You choose an animated weapon and recall it to your hand instantly. If you had another weapon equipped, it's animated beside you.
Piety level (***) "Red Sash"
  • Pressure Points: Your acrobatic attacks get a chance to inflict slowness, and paralysis against slowed monsters.
Piety level (****) "Golden Sash"
Image
  • Project Weapon: (Active, 5 MP, small hunger, 8 piety): If you have a weapon equipped, you project it to an enemy or a target tile, dealing damage and animating the weapon at the target location, making it capable of attacking for a brief period of time. Duration and combat ability of the weapon is based on invocations.
Piety level (*****) "Red Dragon"
  • Afterimage: Swapping weapons by walking into them causes a very short but powerful EV and MR boost.
Piety level (******) "Golden Dragon"
  • No new abilities.

At high invocation and high tension you can get a set of powerful special weapons, the divine weapons. They work out as a temporary combat boost during tight spots. You can see a preview of their tiles at the top, under the altar tile.
Last edited by Steel Neuron on Thursday, 22nd December 2016, 08:49, edited 27 times in total.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 85

Joined: Thursday, 26th May 2016, 13:22

Post Tuesday, 22nd November 2016, 11:54

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Yes it's very fun. :D
I'd say it's pretty strong too. You can have strong battlefield control with pole vault combined with lunge.
So far (in Lair 2) I have max piety but haven't had much use for the steel dragonfly yet, though the one time I tried to use it I only had 5 mp. I can see it becoming useful once higher HD enemies spawn who last long enough for it to be worth it. I've definiteyly been fighting differently I now prefer to fight in small open rooms instead of halls and killholes, then retreating to larger rooms if more enemies appear, retreating to old tactics whenever I see too many ranged threats. This is also probably the best stabbing god, not needing to train daggers and the double stabbing damage+1 range is very strong once you train stealth. Every time i get a sleeping lunge I get !!!!! damage. Oh and the pressure points can cause para to get more stabs so yay.
I'm training UC only and see that the crosstrain bonus leaves all my other weapons around one level behind my UC, thought the crosstrain was 100% from the other thread, must have missed a change.
What does invocations do for this god? There's not much about it in the other thread (one mention in a suggestion and nothing I saw in the OP) and no mention of it in the religion page or abilities descriptions. I put 10 levels into it to be safe but don't know if I should train it more or not.

For this message the author PlatinumSpider has received thanks:
Steel Neuron

Slime Squisher

Posts: 365

Joined: Monday, 7th January 2013, 08:22

Post Tuesday, 22nd November 2016, 12:15

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

PlatinumSpider wrote:Yes it's very fun. :D
I'd say it's pretty strong too. You can have strong battlefield control with pole vault combined with lunge.

I've been spectating your game, you definitely adapted to the god quickly! You even found out something I hadn't realised: that you can use Project Weapon through multiple enemies. I honestly had no idea.

PlatinumSpider wrote:So far (in Lair 2) I have max piety but haven't had much use for the steel dragonfly yet, though the one time I tried to use it I only had 5 mp. I can see it becoming useful once higher HD enemies spawn who last long enough for it to be worth it.


I will probably rebalance Steel Dragonfly so it deals more guaranteed damage and has a higher cost, but requires only two flying weapons. This should make it possible to use it as an opening attack if you're willing to take the setback of getting flying weapons more slowly.

PlatinumSpider wrote: I've definiteyly been fighting differently I now prefer to fight in small open rooms instead of halls and killholes, then retreating to larger rooms if more enemies appear, retreating to old tactics whenever I see too many ranged threats.


That's fantastic to hear! That's the whole point of IJC :).

PlatinumSpider wrote:This is also probably the best stabbing god, not needing to train daggers and the double stabbing damage+1 range is very strong once you train stealth. Every time i get a sleeping lunge I get !!!!! damage. Oh and the pressure points can cause para to get more stabs so yay.


Just a minor point, Lunge deals 50% increased damage at the moment, not double (and I might decrease it if it feels too OP). However, what you might've noticed even more is the momentum mechanic. I coded it so that, when using martial attacks, you get a damage bonus (or malus) proportional to the ratio between your move speed and attack speed. This means that, if you move substantially slower than you can swing a dagger, you will get extra damage. The end result is that, yes, it becomes very good for stabbers :). This was necessary because otherwise heavy weapons would be tremendously OP, and lighter ones comparatively underpowered. However, I might make it so it's only negative (penalty for weapons slower than your move speed, but no bonus for weapons faster than your move speed) if it feels too strong.


PlatinumSpider wrote:I'm training UC only and see that the crosstrain bonus leaves all my other weapons around one level behind my UC, thought the crosstrain was 100% from the other thread, must have missed a change.


Yeah, the PR is a bit outdated; I settled for 80% cross-train, because I felt it was worthwhile to give player preference some impact. It's strong enough for all purposes anyway.

PlatinumSpider wrote:What does invocations do for this god? There's not much about it in the other thread (one mention in a suggestion and nothing I saw in the OP) and no mention of it in the religion page or abilities descriptions. I put 10 levels into it to be safe but don't know if I should train it more or not.


Actually... Nothing at the moment. I'm open to suggestions; right now Ieoh Jian scales off your weapon abilities (whenever relevant) and piety level, nothing more. I thought of making it an invo-less god because you're already incentivised to get weapon skills much further than min delay, but I'll hear opinions on that.
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Shoals Surfer

Posts: 273

Joined: Monday, 23rd November 2015, 23:18

Post Tuesday, 22nd November 2016, 17:23

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

I think it's neat so far. It encourages fighting in open spaces to me, as so I don't lose my cool weapon.
I just wonder if the Good Gods will penalize you for switching to him because of the demon weapon spawning.
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling


duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out
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Spider Stomper

Posts: 198

Joined: Friday, 6th November 2015, 01:35

Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 00:15

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

It feels almost OP, this god. More so than Trog, even. Afterimage is probably too good. I've been playing a very suboptimal char(been training up spells I never use), yet ugly-things-and-sun-demon Volcano was still walk in a park at level 11 without any rF. Dump:
  Code:
dracos369 the Fighter (Grey Draconian Gladiator)   Turns: 13171, Time: 01:36:37

Health: 60/108     AC: 20    Str: 19    XL:     12   Next: 16%
Magic:  28/28      EV: 17    Int: 11    God:    Ieoh Jian [*****.]
Gold:   861        SH:  0    Dex: 17    Spells: 8/21 levels left

rFire  + . .      SeeInvis +    m - +2 demon whip (flame)
rCold  . . .      Gourm    .    (armour unavailable)
rNeg   . . .      Faith    .    (no shield)
rPois  .          Spirit   .    q - +2 hat
rElec  .          Reflect  .    s - +0 cloak {rF+}
rCorr  .          Harm     .    W - +0 pair of gloves
MR     .....                    (no boots)
Stlth  +++.......               M - amulet of magic regeneration
                                r - +3 ring of protection
                                p - ring of magical power

@: no status effects
A: walk through water, unfitting armour, see invisible, agile 2, unbreathing,
cold-blooded, AC +13
a: Project Weapon, Recall Weapon, Renounce Religion


You are in a volcano.
You worship Ieoh Jian.
Ieoh Jian is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 13 of its levels.
You have also visited: Volcano.

You have collected 861 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +1 whip of electrocution
 b - the +1 dagger of Imnylon {protect, MR- Int+2 Stlth+}
   (You found it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It protects the one who uses it against injury (+AC on strike).
   
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It makes you more stealthy.
 m - a +2 demon whip of flaming (weapon)
 n - a +0 blowgun
 Y - a +4 glaive
Missiles
 c - 3 throwing nets (quivered)
 e - 6 curare-tipped needles
Armour
 q - a +2 hat (worn)
 s - a +0 cloak of fire resistance (worn)
 W - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
Jewellery
 p - a ring of magical power (left hand)
 r - a +3 ring of protection (right hand)
 M - an amulet of magic regeneration (around neck)
Wands
 g - a wand of lightning (?/15)
 F - a wand of digging (?/24)
 H - a wand of lightning (?/15)
 L - a wand of iceblast (?/15)
 N - a wand of digging (?/24) {zapped: 3}
Scrolls
 i - 4 scrolls of teleportation
 j - 2 scrolls of fear
 l - 6 scrolls of identify
 o - a scroll of magic mapping
 A - 6 scrolls of remove curse
 T - a scroll of torment
 X - 3 scrolls of blinking
Potions
 f - 3 potions of agility
 h - 3 potions of lignification
 k - a blue potion
 t - a viscous white potion
 u - a potion of cancellation
 v - 6 potions of curing
 x - a potion of ambrosia
 z - 4 potions of flight
 K - a potion of brilliance
 O - a potion of might
Miscellaneous
 C - a box of beasts
Comestibles
 d - 5 bread rations
 B - 12 fruits


   Skills:
 * Level 10.8 Fighting
 - Level 8.1(10.0) Maces & Flails
 + Level 2.2(9.4) Polearms
 - Level 6.0(9.7) Staves
 - Level 2.0 Throwing
 + Level 7.3 Dodging
 - Level 4.0 Stealth
 + Level 5.1 Spellcasting
 - Level 7.0 Conjurations
 - Level 5.0 Fire Magic
 - Level 1.0 Air Magic
 - Level 1.0 Poison Magic
 - Level 1.0 Invocations
 + Level 4.6 Evocations


You have 8 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           ###.         1%          1    None
b - Sticky Flame          Conj/Fire      ###.....     21%         4    ####...
c - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      ###.....     8%          3    ###....
m - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  #.......     21%         3    ###....
u - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       #.....       30%         2    ##.....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (9/15)             Temple (1/1) D:6            Lair (3/6) D:9
 Swamp: Lair:2-4    Shoals: Lair:2-4     Snake: Lair:2-4    Spider: Lair:2-4
   Orc: D:9-12     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Hepliaklqana
Ieoh Jian
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Uskayaw
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Shops:
D:4 %

Annotations:
D:4 wazuzu's ghost, amateur MiMo
D:8 exclusion: ice statue


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You can walk through water.
Your dull iron-grey scales are very hard. (AC +13)
You cannot fit into any form of body armour.
You can survive without breathing.
You are cold-blooded and may be slowed by cold attacks.
You have supernaturally acute eyesight. (SInv)
You are very agile. (Dex +4)


Message History

You now have 852 gold pieces (gained 13).
You see here 17 sling bullets.
You now have 861 gold pieces (gained 9).
Done exploring.
Things that are here:
a spear of flaming; a robe of fire resistance
There is an open door here.
You see here a flail.
There is an open door here.
Done exploring.
There is an open door here.
There is an open door here.
You see here a flail.
Things that are here:
a spear of flaming; a robe of fire resistance
There is an open door here.
You see here a flail.
There is an open door, spattered with blood here.
Char dumped successfully.
Saving game... please wait.

  ###..#####.....§§§≈≈§
  #..(.).##....§≈≈§§§§≈
  #......##....≈≈≈§≈§§≈
  #.)[.[.##.#...≈≈≈§≈≈≈
  #)#..#######...≈§≈≈§≈
  #.######   ##.§§§≈§§≈
###.##...## ###...≈≈§§≈
#.8..#....###8.....§§§≈
#._..'@∩..'........≈§§≈
#.8..#....###8......≈§≈
###.##...## ####.......
  #.######     ####§...
  #'#).###        #####
  #..[...#
  #.)....#
  #..)...#
  ###..#.#


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  A catoblepas (D:9)
  A queen ant (Lair:2)
  Urug (Lair:3)
  A sun demon (Volcano)
  An orc sorcerer (Volcano)
  Pikel (D:4)
  3 ugly things (Volcano)
  An oklob plant (Lair:2)
  2 molten gargoyles (Volcano)
  4 elephants (Lair:2)
  5 spiny frogs
  2 komodo dragons
  A red devil (Volcano)
  A troll (D:9)
  4 blink frogs (Lair:2)
  3 hippogriffs
  A wyvern (D:9)
  5 fire bats (Volcano)
  10 yaks
  A steam dragon (D:8)
  Menkaure (D:7)
  3 water moccasins
  4 porcupines
  6 soldier ants (Lair:2)
  3 ice beasts
  An orc warrior (D:9)
  A black bear (D:9)
  3 slaves (D:4)
  A necrophage (D:9)
  2 ogres
  A phantom (D:7)
  3 centaurs
  6 crocodiles
  3 big kobolds
  9 bullfrogs
  A scorpion (D:9)
  4 killer bees (D:7)
  6 howler monkeys
  3 crimson imps
  7 lava snakes (Volcano)
  A bullfrog skeleton (D:6)
  2 bullfrog zombies
  8 orc priests
  2 jellies (D:5)
  A hound (D:6)
  3 orc wizards
  Terence (D:3)
  2 iguanas
  41 worker ants
  A hound skeleton (D:4)
  A mummy (D:7)
  5 adders
  5 gnolls
  An adder skeleton (D:5)
  An adder zombie (D:9)
  3 worms
  3 dart slugs
  A leopard gecko (D:5)
  29 orcs
  8 bats
  3 giant cockroaches
  7 hobgoblins
  5 jackals
  2 quokkas
  2 ball pythons
  3 frilled lizards
  4 goblins
  A jackal zombie (D:6)
  21 kobolds
  A leopard gecko zombie (D:9)
  6 rats
  A bush (Lair:1)
  12 fungi
  11 plants
315 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  109 flying weapons
  8 fungi
  3 plants (Lair:2)
120 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 435 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | dracos369 the Draconian Gladiator began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 17/17 MP: 1/1
   306 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 13/24 MP: 2/2
  1042 | D:2      | Learned a level 1 spell: Magic Dart
  1051 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 14/29 MP: 0/3
  1609 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations
  1907 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 36/36 MP: 4/4
  1971 | D:3      | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
  2424 | D:3      | Noticed Terence
  2442 | D:3      | Killed Terence
  2636 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Staves
  2860 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 36/41 MP: 5/5
  2904 | D:4      | Found an ornate altar of the Ieoh Jian Council.
  2911 | D:4      | Became a worshipper of Ieoh Jian the Bladed Council
  2927 | D:4      | Noticed wazuzu's ghost (amateur MiMo)
  2962 | D:4      | HP: 2/41 [wazuzu's ghost (12)]
  2971 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  3396 | D:5      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 39/48 MP: 6/6
  3739 | D:5      | Reached skill level 3 in Fighting
  3916 | D:5      | Your scales start taking on a dull iron-grey colour.
  3916 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 52/57 MP: 7/7
  3916 | D:5      | Gained mutation: You can survive without breathing. [Grey Draconian growth]
  4246 | D:5      | Reached * piety under Ieoh Jian
  4413 | D:4      | Got a crystal hunting sling
  4414 | D:4      | Identified the +4 hunting sling "Odghoc" {freeze, rN+ Str+3} (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
  4562 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  4662 | D:4      | Noticed Pikel
  5129 | D:4      | Killed Pikel
  5129 | D:4      | Reached skill level 4 in Fighting
  5129 | D:4      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 51/67 MP: 11/11
  5187 | D:4      | Found Etohuopn's Food Emporium.
  5193 | D:4      | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
  5338 | D:4      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  5516 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  5590 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Maces & Flails
  5590 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
  5722 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  5725 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  6026 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Stealth
  6096 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
  6101 | D:6      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
  6335 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
  6428 | D:6      | Reached ** piety under Ieoh Jian
  6525 | D:7      | Noticed Menkaure
  6538 | D:7      | Killed Menkaure
  6686 | D:7      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  7332 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 73/74 MP: 12/12
  7419 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
  7628 | D:8      | Noticed an ice statue
  7867 | D:7      | Reached *** piety under Ieoh Jian
  7976 | D:8      | Gained mutation: You have supernaturally acute eyesight. (SInv) [potion of mutation]
  7976 | D:8      | Gained mutation: You are agile. (Dex +2) [potion of mutation]
  7976 | D:8      | Gained mutation: You are very agile. (Dex +4) [potion of mutation]
  8091 | D:8      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  8625 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  9035 | D:9      | Learned a level 4 spell: Sticky Flame
  9072 | D:9      | Noticed a catoblepas
  9107 | D:9      | Killed a catoblepas
  9107 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Maces & Flails
  9107 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 54/81 MP: 15/15
  9498 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
  9605 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic
  9788 | Lair:1   | Noticed a spiny frog
  9807 | Lair:1   | Killed a spiny frog
  9969 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 6 in Fighting
 10423 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 10442 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 7 in Fighting
 10494 | Lair:2   | Got a pitted dagger
 10495 | Lair:2   | Identified the cursed +1 dagger of Imnylon {protect, MR- Int+2 Stlth+} (You found it on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts)
 11124 | Lair:2   | Noticed an oklob plant
 11148 | Lair:2   | Killed an oklob plant
 11148 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 8 in Fighting
 11148 | Lair:2   | Reached XP level 11. HP: 94/94 MP: 17/17
 11281 | Lair:2   | Reached **** piety under Ieoh Jian
 11308 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 11391 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 9 in Fighting
 11643 | Lair:2   | Noticed a queen ant
 11652 | Lair:2   | Killed a queen ant
 12134 | Lair:3   | Identified Moeni's Tome of Duck's Teeth
 12160 | Lair:3   | Noticed Urug
 12180 | Lair:3   | Killed Urug
 12180 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 12350 | Lair:3   | Found a dark tunnel.
 12355 | Volcano  | Entered a volcano
 12520 | Volcano  | Noticed a red ugly thing
 12532 | Volcano  | Killed a red ugly thing
 12579 | Volcano  | Reached ***** piety under Ieoh Jian
 12601 | Volcano  | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
 12601 | Volcano  | Noticed a red ugly thing
 12601 | Volcano  | Noticed a sun demon
 12601 | Volcano  | Noticed a red ugly thing
 12610 | Volcano  | Killed a red ugly thing
 12619 | Volcano  | Killed a red ugly thing
 12619 | Volcano  | Reached XP level 12. HP: 14/107 MP: 19/19
 12853 | Volcano  | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 |
---------------+-------------------------------------+-----
Staves         |     4     5     6                   |  6.0
Conjurations   |        1  2  3  4  5     7          |  7.0
Fighting       |                 3  4  5     8 10    | 10.8
Polearms       |                    2                |  2.2
Dodging        |                    3  4     5  7    |  7.3
Spellcasting   |                    2     3  4     5 |  5.1
Maces & Flails |                       3  5  7  8    |  8.1
Fire Magic     |                       1  4  5       |  5.0
Stealth        |                       2  4          |  4.0
Air Magic      |                       1             |  1.0
Poison Magic   |                       1             |  1.0
Invocations    |                          1          |  1.0
Throwing       |                             2       |  2.0
Evocations     |                                4    |  4.6

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Quarterstaff      |    80 |   135 |    14 |    15 ||   244
       Tailslap          |     9 |    21 |    53 |   134 ||   217
       Short sword       |       |     4 |     4 |       ||     8
       Dagger            |       |    13 |     9 |    37 ||    59
       Trident           |       |     4 |       |     4 ||     8
       Punch             |       |     1 |     5 |    22 ||    28
       Long sword        |       |       |    17 |       ||    17
       Bardiche          |       |       |    10 |     5 ||    15
       Mace              |       |       |    10 |       ||    10
       War axe           |       |       |    18 |       ||    18
       Whip              |       |       |   255 |   361 ||   616
       Lajatang          |       |       |    17 |    11 ||    28
       Quick blade       |       |       |     2 |    20 ||    22
       Rapier            |       |       |     2 |     6 ||     8
       Scimitar          |       |       |     2 |     3 ||     5
       Broad axe         |       |       |     4 |     9 ||    13
       Spear             |       |       |     1 |     5 ||     6
       Falchion          |       |       |     4 |    25 ||    29
       Hand axe          |       |       |     1 |     3 ||     4
       Glaive            |       |       |     1 |    10 ||    11
       Battleaxe         |       |       |       |    10 ||    10
       Halberd           |       |       |       |     6 ||     6
       Demon whip        |       |       |       |    35 ||    35
       Great sword       |       |       |       |    18 ||    18
       Great mace        |       |       |       |    11 ||    11
       Executioner's axe |       |       |       |     6 ||     6
       Double sword      |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
       Unarmed           |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
 Fire: Hunting sling     |       |       |    32 |     3 ||    35
       Blowgun           |       |       |     6 |     1 ||     7
 Cast: Magic Dart        |    25 |    21 |    16 |       ||    62
       Repel Missiles    |       |     1 |     1 |       ||     2
Invok: Recall Weapon     |       |       |     1 |     5 ||     6
       Project Weapon    |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |       |     6 |     9 |    14 ||    29
       Potion            |       |     1 |     3 |     3 ||     7
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |       |     9 |     9 ||    18
       Distracted        |       |       |     1 |     2 ||     3
       Invisible         |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
  Eat: Chunk             |    16 |    13 |    15 |     2 ||    46
       Bread ration      |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
Armor: Skin              |    25 |    29 |   122 |   112 ||   288
Dodge: Dodged            |    57 |    90 |   219 |   270 ||   636
       Deflected         |       |     1 |     1 |       ||     2
Block: Shield            |       |       |     2 |       ||     2
Rpst.: Long sword        |       |       |     3 |       ||     3
       Great sword       |       |       |       |     4 ||     4
       Falchion          |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
       Double sword      |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
It should probably allow training all weapon types when you join(like, I'd probably want to train more axes, but I haven found one yet/don't want to haul it around). Related, for some reason, I'm able to train bows despite not having one. Also, I've noticed that AC bonus from protection weapons prevails even after you grab another weapon from the air.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 02:28

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

I agree with dracos369, getting +5 eveningstar ally before Lair feels OP, and then I walk into it (I am Ogre) and get MR++++ and EV 20 while still hitting adjacent enemy with my plain +0 giant club. Too good IMHO.

After killing an adder and a killer bee I still had allied lajatang and another weapon to fight a killer bee who just wandered into view, maybe the weapons should disappear when we kill something to stay more balanced. Also getting a friendly weapon ally right after joining seems as OP as Hepl who makes you pay 10% HP for that.
Last edited by VeryAngryFelid on Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 02:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 02:33

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Also probably there is some bug, I cannot resume training M&F after switching to council weapon. I tried switching weapons after council status ended, nothing seems to help.

  Code:
rFire  . . .      SeeInvis +    a - +0 giant club

   Skills:
 + Level 10.4 Fighting
   Level 14.0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 2.0 Throwing
 + Level 6.7 Dodging
 - Level 3.2 Invocations

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... dman25.txt
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Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 04:21

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Strength will probably need some tuning, but you already know that. I'm close to wrapping up a DsMo run and had incredible luck with early drops which may have colored my perspective a bit, but the god feels really strong at all points of the game so far. Negatives, I haven't found project weapon particularly useful,the axe/dagger passive feels kinda meh, and it takes too long to set up steel dragonfly technique IMO. Otherwise, the weapon swapping is great, and am really enjoying the passive sword/mace and staff/polearm abilities. Most importantly, the god is a lot of fun. I really enjoy the concept and hope it goes to trunk eventually.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 07:52

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

LostInTranslocation wrote:Strength will probably need some tuning, but you already know that. I'm close to wrapping up a DsMo run and had incredible luck with early drops which may have colored my perspective a bit, but the god feels really strong at all points of the game so far. Negatives, I haven't found project weapon particularly useful,the axe/dagger passive feels kinda meh, and it takes too long to set up steel dragonfly technique IMO. Otherwise, the weapon swapping is great, and am really enjoying the passive sword/mace and staff/polearm abilities. Most importantly, the god is a lot of fun. I really enjoy the concept and hope it goes to trunk eventually.


Try playing a UC char - I do project weapon at the start of every fight. Funny enough, I like the axe/dagger passive (lunge) the best because it feels more like natural movement. Related to that, I keep forgetting to trigger the weapon passives. Might help if these are documented in-game, or even better if the UI hints at this (for example, with targeting highlights).

My initial feedback probably is that the god is too busy. There are a lot of great effects, don't get me wrong, but it feels to me that you could cut down on some of them without hurting the god too much. Like afterimage - you already have plenty of incentive to switch weapons, so offering a free defensive boost on top seems too much. All the allies and the message spam that comes along with them also feel a little overwhelming. Lots of button presses too, but I guess that's the intent of the design.

And I agree that one would prefer open space with this god than corridors, but that's generally true for ally play. Do god powers scale with weapon skill only and not piety too? God feels strong immediately upon joining, but I've only played Mo so that may skew my observation.

Hope I don't come across as too critical. There's definitely a lot of good ideas here.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 08:19

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Thanks everyone for the feedback! One thing to keep in mind is that flying weapons are a severly nerfed form of Tukima's, in a variety of ways. They deal 0.7*weapon damage instead of 2*damage, they have a much lower accuracy base, plus a flat -25 to the final to_hit value (so they're quite imprecise), they get teleported away when dealt any amount of damage, and they start their lifespans with an energy penalty so they take a couple turns to start acting. I might need to make these penalties more severe, but remember they're already much weaker than their Tukima counterparts ;).

I've been spectating games for a while yesterday and I have a roadmap for the changes that will be coming with the next version. Here's what I'm going to be doing:

General QoL:
  • You can now shoot, zap and cast through flying weapons (including projecting other weapons through them).
  • No more firewood whacking.
  • The message explaining the Martial Mastery passive is more descriptive and points you towards reading weapon descriptions. I'm considering whether to inscribe weapons with a keyword too, but I think it would mean too much visual noise.
  • The text colour should be more readable now (Light red instead of red) and the Council buff marker is no more, since it didn't add useful information.
  • When you're prevented from swapping weapons on walk, the message you get will be more explicit (for example, specifying that you can't swap because you have a shield, or a cursed weapon).
  • Less noise: Weapons will shatter silently now. Instead, you will get a "The Council is losing interest and is starting to withdraw weapons" message only once.

Whole mechanics:
  • Afterimage is going to be removed. It's the weakest link thematically, and there's enough going on for this god already; it doesn't need to provide a defensive boost as well. Swapping weapons for their different martial attacks is already enough of an incentive, I think.

Balance changes that I'm 100% sure are going in:
  • Costs increased for both Weapon Projection and Steel Dragonfly Technique. Buffed the liquefaction effect for the latter a bit.
  • Pressure Points will not be able to cause paralysis directly anymore. Instead, there will be a chance to paralyse when hitting a monster that is slowed.

Balance changes that I'm considering:
  • Severely reducing weapon AC and EV (possibly leaving both at 0). This would mean that ANY monster attack would automatically cause them to blink away. This would mitigate their ability to act as a meat shield and force you to tank if you want the weapons to deal damage.
  • Increasing the inactivity period just after a weapon is summoned. I like that the weapons appear early so you can grab them, but it's reasonable to prevent them from attacking for a while for balance purposes. As an alternative, I could make it so they are summoned at random locations rather than adjacent to the combat.
  • Capping the momentum factor. This is a bit more technical so here's the explanation: At the moment, the god has a momentum mechanic that balances slow and fast weapons when using martial attacks. It works as follows: you get a damage multiplier equal to "move delay / attack delay", so if you're using a very slow greatsword and whirlwind with it, you'd get your damage penalised since your move speed stays the same. At the moment, this modifier works both ways, so if you're a naga wielding a quick blade of speed, you get an insane damage multiplier when lunging, which probably explains the ridiculous stabs people are getting. I'm considering capping this modifier to a factor of 1, so it's either a penalty or nothing at all. I'm unsure, because it could have the adverse effect of forcing experienced players to ignore weapons that are too fast since they wouldn't be getting as much out of them. Maybe there's a sweetspot with a maximum modifier of 1.2 or similar; I'm open to ideas.
  • Tweaking damage modifiers for martial attacks. Whirlwind may need to be slightly penalised since it's the easiest to spam, but I think the new Pressure Points will already take care of that.
  • Some degree of scaling with Invocations. At the moment the god is completely unrelated to Invo, it scales off the relevant weapon skills, XL and Piety.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 15:15

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Steel Neuron wrote:Capping the momentum factor. This is a bit more technical so here's the explanation: At the moment, the god has a momentum mechanic that balances slow and fast weapons when using martial attacks. It works as follows: you get a damage multiplier equal to "move delay / attack delay", so if you're using a very slow greatsword and whirlwind with it, you'd get your damage penalised since your move speed stays the same. At the moment, this modifier works both ways, so if you're a naga wielding a quick blade of speed, you get an insane damage multiplier when lunging, which probably explains the ridiculous stabs people are getting. I'm considering capping this modifier to a factor of 1, so it's either a penalty or nothing at all. I'm unsure, because it could have the adverse effect of forcing experienced players to ignore weapons that are too fast since they wouldn't be getting as much out of them. Maybe there's a sweetspot with a maximum modifier of 1.2 or similar; I'm open to ideas.


How about limiting the effect only to weapons with current delay <= 1.0 and removing the multiplier? Then player would have an incentive to use lighter weapons before heavier weapons are at 1.0 and to train multiple weapon categories to make it more likely to be able to use the effect (here I assume that base damage of council weapons does not depend on piety/invocations).

Edit. Of course, weapons which trigger the effect will need to be somehow differentiated visually, maybe by colouring.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 15:26

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

im playing FoMo^council atm

3 issues so far:

1: its too strong yep :P the dancing wpns alone, without actives. maybe give them at later piety lvls only

2: im using a shield, and dont seem to get penalized for that

3: when i started using dragonfly technique, a lajatang of speed was directly behind me in direction of enemy. and it hit me for 3!!! while not causing much dmg on enemy (>50 dmg to me, almost killing me)

im not really tempted to use the active abilities atm, except grabbing my weapon back from the air or another good one

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Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 15:50

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Okay guys, this might sound radical but I think it's for the best:

After some conversations on IRC, I've decided that weapons will not normally attack. Yep, you heard that right. Summoned weapons will simply float close to you and provide body blocking (they will be teleported away when hit as usual), as well as being around for you to grab.

Now, Project Weapon is going to become a lot more important because it will make the weapon active for a brief period, causing it to attack enemies near the tile where it was projected. In parallel to this, flying weapon damage and precision is going to be buffed, and the piety cost for Projection will be increased substantially.

I think this is going to give the player more agency, as well as further differentiate the animated weapon from Tukima's, while giving the active skill much more importance.

When people play ICJ they seem to really enjoy the martial attacks but not so much the flying weapons taking protagonism, so this should be a step on the right direction, specially balance wise.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 15:53

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:1: its too strong yep :P the dancing wpns alone, without actives. maybe give them at later piety lvls only


Absolutely :). See my former post for a look into how I'm going to be approaching that.

Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:2: im using a shield, and dont seem to get penalized for that


You will, eventually. I haven't gotten around to implementing penance and conduct yet, but it's on its way.

Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:3: when i started using dragonfly technique, a lajatang of speed was directly behind me in direction of enemy. and it hit me for 3!!! while not causing much dmg on enemy (>50 dmg to me, almost killing me)


Yikes!!! I didn't see that one coming (bet you didn't either). I'd look into that, thanks for the heads up!

Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:im not really tempted to use the active abilities atm, except grabbing my weapon back from the air or another good one


The current build has a very buggy Steel Dragonfly Technique anyway, it should be much better in the upcoming patch, and Project Weapon will have an entire new role, so hopefully that will change your mind :)

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Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 15:55

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

I don't think Fo should be penalized for using a shield, it's a racial trait.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 16:03

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

yea ill definitely continue playing and giving feedback.

about Fo+shields. i wasnt sure if its intended. just thought i'd post it

its definitely a lot to learn, complex one. so im having fun for now, thx

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Post Wednesday, 23rd November 2016, 21:32

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Getting a crash when I try to grab a floating weapon while having the Singing Sword equipped. Removing the Singing Sword prevents the crashes.

I guess it doesn't appreciate being abandoned on the floor.
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Post Thursday, 24th November 2016, 00:40

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

It's fun and strong(and not being able to wield while keeping an animated weapon attacking is a neat way to incorporate unarmed) but when you get a strong weapon early much of the time it feels like you're playing "dodge the weapons".

When you don't have a strong weapon and many of the animated weapons are stronger than yours it's more fun and variable.

I almost think projected weapon shouldn't be berserked? And I sort of think it might be good to make the abilities use invo, though I can see the justification for making it purely martial skills as well.
The biggest thing to change is how, when a weapon appears, it says like " A +6 battleaxe of speed manifests from thin air!" but when you look at the weapon with x or whatever it doesn't say that it's +6 of speed. but I'm sure you know this

e: also I kind of think the extra martial passives per weapon type should be condensed down into just giving the "attack by moving past" passive for everything.

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Post Thursday, 24th November 2016, 01:41

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

I suggest to change messages colour, red is used for danger IMHO.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 24th November 2016, 02:03

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

It is not clear from martial art description what triggered slow on monster. Is it M&F?

You spin and strike the catoblepas!
A +6 bardiche of speed manifests from thin air!
The catoblepas seems to slow down as you strike a pressure point.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 24th November 2016, 07:02

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Shard1697 wrote:It's fun and strong(and not being able to wield while keeping an animated weapon attacking is a neat way to incorporate unarmed) but when you get a strong weapon early much of the time it feels like you're playing "dodge the weapons".

When you don't have a strong weapon and many of the animated weapons are stronger than yours it's more fun and variable..


One palliative to this is that IJC followers benefit a lot more from the speed brand than other characters do (since faster weapons get extra damage on martial attacks), and as you reach the higher end of piety and XL, every animated weapon is speed branded. No matter how strong your weapon is, a +9 demon blade of speed will be a force to be reckoned with ;)

On the other hand, If you inscribe a weapon with !w, you will stop swapping it, so there's a workaround. It's slightly spoilery but consistent with the god mechanics (you won't swap if your weapon is dangerous to unequip or cursed). Still, if your main weapon is so good that it leaves every other one obsolete, it may be reasonable to abandon IJC.


Shard1697 wrote:I almost think projected weapon shouldn't be berserked? And I sort of think it might be good to make the abilities use invo, though I can see the justification for making it purely martial skills as well.


The weapons aren't actually berserked, that is just a visual thing :). I needed to convey the fact that they're fighting on their own so I borrowed the berserker icon, but in the future it will have its own custom marker. About invo, I'll make it relevant but I haven't yet decided how.

Shard1697 wrote:e: also I kind of think the extra martial passives per weapon type should be condensed down into just giving the "attack by moving past" passive for everything.


I really disagree with that!! The lifeblood of the god is how pole vault, lunge and whirlwind interact with each other. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be a point in swapping weapons, other than grabbing the strongest one. It takes a while to get used to, but eventually the way to exploit all three at the same time clicks, and it's very fun and effective :)

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Post Thursday, 24th November 2016, 07:04

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

VeryAngryFelid wrote:It is not clear from martial art description what triggered slow on monster. Is it M&F?

You spin and strike the catoblepas!
A +6 bardiche of speed manifests from thin air!
The catoblepas seems to slow down as you strike a pressure point.


All martial attacks have a chance to do this (lunge, pole vault and whirlwind). You got it through whirlwind that time.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I suggest to change messages colour, red is used for danger IMHO.


That's fixed for the latest patch (should be up on cbro). It now uses the same colour as Lugonu, light red.

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Post Thursday, 24th November 2016, 09:55

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

What's the thought process behind the name?

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Post Thursday, 24th November 2016, 14:50

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

I like the god for ability to use every weapon by the way, it's quite fun when you kill Nikola with +0 trident {rElec} despite having 0 skills in polearms it's still at min delay.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 24th November 2016, 15:16

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

lordfrikk wrote:What's the thought process behind the name?


It's meant to sound vaguely asian, without actually meaning anything. I deformed the words 舞劍 (Wu Jian) which mean something like "Blade Dance", so it fit the requirement of starting with the letter I. The inspiration is Chinese martial arts, but I didn't want to force the flavour too much since Crawl is, after all, based in a nondescript fantasy land.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I like the god for ability to use every weapon by the way, it's quite fun when you kill Nikola with +0 trident {rElec} despite having 0 skills in polearms it's still at min delay.


Honestly, my selfish motivation to work on this god (which comes all the way back from 2013) is having a god that will allow me flexibility in weapon choice during a run. I hate finding good weapons that I am not trained for :)

EDIT: Updated the OP with the latest changes.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 24th November 2016, 19:18

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Steel Neuron wrote:
lordfrikk wrote:What's the thought process behind the name?


It's meant to sound vaguely asian, without actually meaning anything. I deformed the words 舞劍 (Wu Jian) which mean something like "Blade Dance", so it fit the requirement of starting with the letter I. The inspiration is Chinese martial arts, but I didn't want to force the flavour too much since Crawl is, after all, based in a nondescript fantasy land.


Thanks for the explanation. Jian is fine as it is a valid syllable in Chinese but not so sure about the "ieoh" part. Wasn't the deity supposed to start with a W, though? I might have some ideas how to improve the name a bit, if need be.

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 24th November 2016, 19:41

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

lordfrikk wrote:
Steel Neuron wrote:
lordfrikk wrote:What's the thought process behind the name?


It's meant to sound vaguely asian, without actually meaning anything. I deformed the words 舞劍 (Wu Jian) which mean something like "Blade Dance", so it fit the requirement of starting with the letter I. The inspiration is Chinese martial arts, but I didn't want to force the flavour too much since Crawl is, after all, based in a nondescript fantasy land.


Thanks for the explanation. Jian is fine as it is a valid syllable in Chinese but not so sure about the "ieoh" part. Wasn't the deity supposed to start with a W, though? I might have some ideas how to improve the name a bit, if need be.


When I started working on this, Wudzu was being actively tested so I was told by dpeg to choose an "I" if at all possible. I ended up liking the way "Ieoh Jian" sounds, but I'm open to suggestions, specially if the "W" becomes available again :)

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Post Thursday, 24th November 2016, 21:41

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

FYI, recent changes have nerfed UC pretty hard (council weapons not attacking + project weapon's piety cost). There doesn't seem any reason now to use UC over a weapon. On the bright side, cross training means it's not that hard to transition to non-UC.

Also, did something happen to Lunge? I can't seem to get it to trigger now.

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 24th November 2016, 22:02

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

DracheReborn wrote:FYI, recent changes have nerfed UC pretty hard (council weapons not attacking + project weapon's piety cost). There doesn't seem any reason now to use UC over a weapon. On the bright side, cross training means it's not that hard to transition to non-UC.

Also, did something happen to Lunge? I can't seem to get it to trigger now.


Yep, it's broken. There is an open pull request that fixes it, but I need someone with commit access to merge it and rebuild the branch on CBRO. Hopefully one of the devs will see it soon ( https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/413 )

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 25th November 2016, 05:52

Bug report on expermential CBRO

Not sure if this is the write place to report bugs (mod edit: merged from Technical Support into here) but here goes: While worshiping Ieoh Jian on CBRO I selected Project weapon through an invisible skybeast at a scorpion behind the sky beast and the weapon tried to go through the invisible sky beast but stopped there and the game crashed.

Not sure if it matters but my goal was to overpower the skybeast as I am playing a mummy and kind of weak at this point. No one asked but I am concerned that this god might make Mummy too easy as it gives assistance when a mummy needs it the most.

Update: The game seems to always crash with a sky beast invisible or not.

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Steel Neuron

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Post Friday, 25th November 2016, 09:55

Re: Bug report on expermential CBRO

sage1234 wrote:Not sure if this is the write place to report bugs (mod edit: merged from Technical Support into here) but here goes: While worshiping Ieoh Jian on CBRO I selected Project weapon through an invisible skybeast at a scorpion behind the sky beast and the weapon tried to go through the invisible sky beast but stopped there and the game crashed.

Not sure if it matters but my goal was to overpower the skybeast as I am playing a mummy and kind of weak at this point. No one asked but I am concerned that this god might make Mummy too easy as it gives assistance when a mummy needs it the most.

Update: The game seems to always crash with a sky beast invisible or not.


What is your name on CBRO? I'll look at the crash reports, thanks :).

I think I know what bug you mean and it's fixed on the opening PR (it's about attempting to apply the "combat active" buff you get after projection, when summoning the weapon itself has failed).

Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Friday, 25th November 2016, 15:05

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

I won a fifteen rune game yesterday with the god. Good times!

I think when using throw weapon at a target it might be nice to have the weapon sic that target before it starts trying to run back to you, but this is a pretty common feature of summons if there is more then one target. A thrown +9 great sword did a pretty good job of killing lone hellions.

Weapons are useful for blocking malmute and things like Orbs of destruction. Piety drain was enough that I wasn't just throwing willy-nilly but could be fairly generous with the ability. I would always throw short on monsters with malmute to keep LoS blocked.

Orbs of fire's lurid light/mutate crashed the game when It hit a thrown weapon, pretty sure you were there but yeah.

Lotus finisher helped win a lot of fights esp on the pan lords and hell lords. damage feels significant in exchange for the build up required.

I didn't use recall weapon often because it didn't seem weapons did much damage on the way back if they did at all: I assumed the idea was you could toss something then snap it back as a 1-2 ranged attack combo? I mostly used it because I didn't want my sweapon left behind on stairs

I had claws 3 so I actually used unarmed a lot because it was my highest damage option and being able to lotus earlier was nice.

I would use axes even without lunge because of cleaving and high base damage when facing several enemies when I couldnt whirlwind or the target I wanted to kill first was in a corner.

I don't know even with lunge if I'd use knives. Too low base damage for extended monsters and I almost never paralyzed or confused with pressure points. Flying weapons didn't seem to distract that often. Maybe have knives give the EV/MR++ buff? I am going to play a spriggian to see if I can work knives in today :)

strongest overall feature is free summons and smite targeted throw: being able to toss weapons behind enemies to hit the guys in back. Pole vault felt fun to use but overall I tried to stick with long blades because of how strong whirlwind/reposte is when the enemy is nice enough to let you weave through them.

I think 13 invo would be fair for the level of power I saw in my game using actives.

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Post Friday, 25th November 2016, 22:51

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

As far as having a god that is about being constantly surrounded by temporary allies or having bonuses that only activate in combat, this is tops! But you don't seem to like that part?

Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 25th November 2016, 23:27

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

You still prefer a certain weapon even with 100% crosstraining if your aptitudes are uneven! Is this intended? Have you thought about crosstraining invo and weapons?

Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 25th November 2016, 23:39

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Summon Dancing Weapon could be a brother-in-arms like invocation for some god, so you get an ally, and after the fight, a weapon you could use...

Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 26th November 2016, 11:00

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Hi syringe! I'm not sure I understand the phrasing of your questions but I'll do my best to answer :).

syringe wrote:As far as having a god that is about being constantly surrounded by temporary allies or having bonuses that only activate in combat, this is tops! But you don't seem to like that part?


I'm assuming you're talking about the fact that weapons don't attack on their own in the current version.

This is something that happened organically as I watched people play the god and report on the parts they liked the most. IJC is first and foremost a god of mobility and martial arts, so it feels natural to focus on what maneuvers you can do when whorshipping them. Having weapons be powerful, damaging allies runs counter to that because it steals protagonism from you. I tried to balance it by constantly nerfing and reducing the offense for those weapons, but it always felt conceptually wrong.

Since I made the change, I'm much happier with how the god plays out. The three active abilities were sort of tacked on, and now they have their respective roles. Project Weapon acts as a very short duration uber-summon, which is something that DCSS doesn't have much of, while Steel Dragonfly Technique allows you a massive burst of damage in exchange for limiting your options in the short term. Before, SDT was more awkward since it also came with a reduction on your overall damage output, since you lost the weapon allies. Altogether, this change also resulted in a significant decrease of the god's power, which was necessary since the original version was very OP.

Lastly, having the weapons always seek you makes it so it's always easy to grab them and use their martial attacks immediately.

syringe wrote:You still prefer a certain weapon even with 100% crosstraining if your aptitudes are uneven! Is this intended? Have you thought about crosstraining invo and weapons?


I wanted IJC to simplify the skilling process, but at the same respect player choice and species. That's why it's 80% rather than 100% crosstraining; because I want the player's choice of primary weapon to matter, if only slightly. On the other hand, I'm also okay with aptitudes mattering; this will probably lead to different IJC playstyles. I can see an IJC ogre sticking to summoned M&F and using the rest only for projection and Steel Dragonfly, while, say, an IJC tengu or minotaur would be more flexible.

About Invocations, what I'm doing with the last version is make Invocations relate to the active parts of the god, while weapon skills relate to the passives. More specifically, pressure points, martial attacks, and the physical damage from throwing weapons all depend on the weapon skill and piety. However, duration and power of summoned weapons (when combat active), the internal liquefaction damage of SDT, and weapon enchant levels also depend on invocations. This means you can choose how much to invest in Invo depending on the kind of playstyle you're going for.

syringe wrote:Summon Dancing Weapon could be a brother-in-arms like invocation for some god, so you get an ally, and after the fight, a weapon you could use...


I like the temporary quality of weapons right now, specially since they break the generation rules (they go up to +13 enchantment level, which you can't normally get). However, I'm still planning to implement the ability to steal from the god on abandonment...

Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 26th November 2016, 11:34

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Whaleporn wrote:I won a fifteen rune game yesterday with the god. Good times!


Nice run! It's a shame I wasn't around until the end :)

Whaleporn wrote:Orbs of fire's lurid light/mutate crashed the game when It hit a thrown weapon, pretty sure you were there but yeah.

I think I fixed that bug now.
Whaleporn wrote:I didn't use recall weapon often because it didn't seem weapons did much damage on the way back if they did at all: I assumed the idea was you could toss something then snap it back as a 1-2 ranged attack combo? I mostly used it because I didn't want my sweapon left behind on stairs

Recall weapon has changed a bit since the initial design. I decided for it not to do any damage in exchange for taking only 1 AUT. The reason why it takes so little is because I want players to say "Oh, It would be so useful to pole vault right now", and that's what Recall Weapon gives you, an immediate swap so you don't need to interrupt your combat flow. If I were to add damage or other effects to it, I don't think I could get away with such a short cast time.
Whaleporn wrote:I don't know even with lunge if I'd use knives. Too low base damage for extended monsters and I almost never paralyzed or confused with pressure points. Flying weapons didn't seem to distract that often. Maybe have knives give the EV/MR++ buff? I am going to play a spriggian to see if I can work knives in today :)


I'm not going to bring back Afterimage, however I'm considering experimenting a bit more with the brands. I am planning for short blades and polearms to always be electrocution, LB and axes to always be flaming, and Staves and M&F to always be speed (it fits with the red-yellow-steel colour scheme, for whomever cares).

Whaleporn wrote:strongest overall feature is free summons and smite targeted throw: being able to toss weapons behind enemies to hit the guys in back. Pole vault felt fun to use but overall I tried to stick with long blades because of how strong whirlwind/reposte is when the enemy is nice enough to let you weave through them.

I think 13 invo would be fair for the level of power I saw in my game using actives.


Noted! Invo matters now so I'll be looking forward to feedback from your spriggan :)

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 07:20

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

One thing that needs to happen for this god is that items from your inventory have to always go back to your inventory and retain their inventory slots when they do. I somehow lost a pain weapon on one run, ctrl-f couldn't even find it, and whenever you move around in combat there's a chance your (a) slot weapon will get reshuffled to another open slot which can cause you to attack unarmed when you ' to switch to it then tab. Also when you take stairs any weapon you have projected or swapped out from movement should be returned to your inventory as well.

Being able to toggle weapon swapping with a god ability would be a nice option as well.

Other than that the god does make for fun games thanks for your work on it.

Slime Squisher

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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 18:05

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

PlatinumSpider wrote:One thing that needs to happen for this god is that items from your inventory have to always go back to your inventory and retain their inventory slots when they do.

PlatinumSpider wrote: and whenever you move around in combat there's a chance your (a) slot weapon will get reshuffled to another open slot which can cause you to attack unarmed when you ' to switch to it then tab.

That's what happens when you swap weapons, but unfortunately what you suggest could be pretty hard to implement when using weapon projection or equipping a weapon from an unarmed state. I'll look into it, but I can't promise anything.

PlatinumSpider wrote:I somehow lost a pain weapon on one run, ctrl-f couldn't even find it,


That's most definitely a bug, and I'll look into it :)

PlatinumSpider wrote: Also when you take stairs any weapon you have projected or swapped out from movement should be returned to your inventory as well.


I used to say that it was your responsability to not leave weapons behind, but I agree, it's going to simplify things a lot both on the front and back end, so that's how it will work as soon as I can get some time to write a patch!

PlatinumSpider wrote:Being able to toggle weapon swapping with a god ability would be a nice option as well.


You can currently do it by inscribing your weapon with !w. I'm not sure that making it part of the god interface would be a good idea.

PlatinumSpider wrote:Other than that the god does make for fun games thanks for your work on it.


Thanks! Glad to hear you're enjoying it!

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 5th December 2016, 16:46

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Big changes in today.

For the past two weeks, I've easily spectated a hundred games with this god. Feedback has been overwhelmingly positive, but I've also been able to experience firsthand what parts of the god don't work so well.

Biggest offender was, by far, Steel Dragonfly Technique. While good on paper, people just weren't using it. Weapon Projection is already a good panic button, specially if spammed, and Steel Dragonfly Technique either took too long to set up or didn't have clear use opportunities. It also steps on Uskayaw's grand finale, so as of today's patch, Steel Dragonfly Technique is out.

On the other hand, I've had to revise the removal of Afterimage. Back when Afterimage was first removed, there were two arguments against it: balance and complexity. The god was busier back then, and significantly stronger. This made afterimage a bit excessive. However, since weapon quality has gone down a lot, some builds have found themselves having doubts whether to swap weapons at all, to the point of wanting to wield a vamp branded weapon to stop the swaps. This was a clear signal that an incentive to keep swapping was needed after toning down the weapon generation. For that reason, Afterimage is back on a shorter duration, to provide a short lived defensive boost to characters that keep exposing themselves and stay on the move.

In terms of balance, the god has been suffering nerfs since day one, and for the first time I'm starting to be comfortable with where it's at. There have been lots of tweaks and subtle changes, such as the ability to use martial attacks both before and after a weapon swap, but never twice per mob. This is actualy a huge simplification, since it saves you from having to think whether a particular move will trigger a particular martial attack; if any of the weapons involved work, it will work.

Lastly, there are tiles for the divine weapons! I needed an excuse to learn some pixel art, and I've had a lot of fun with them.

Image

I think the kit is way more cohesive and simple now, and the feedback from testers seem to confirm that. I'll keep spectating and making minor tweaks. Thanks to everyone involved! :)

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Post Monday, 5th December 2016, 21:14

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Those tiles look cool 8-)

I was surprised to see Afterimage pop up again in my game. If you want to keep it, I would suggest making it a little more obvious when it happens. Usually I notice it only after the "Your afterimage dissipates" message pops up (and leaves me wondering what just happened).

Alternative suggestion: make pressure points more likely to trigger after "combos" e.g. consecutive special moves from different weapon types. Tangentially related to that, right now I think Whirlwind (for swords and maces) is a little abusable since you can just keep moving sideways in an attempt to trigger pressure points. It's harder to do the same for the other 2 special moves, well unless if you have fast move speed.

Btw I feel Project Weapon should probably be at higher * level, and possibly be a little stronger, if it's to be the main panic button.

Anyway tactical fighting with this god can be really fun, I like the way it's shaping up. I think it's still a little too strong though, maybe you need to nerf weapon quality or tie it to invo a lot more.

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Post Tuesday, 6th December 2016, 10:28

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

DracheReborn wrote:Those tiles look cool 8-)

Thanks! :)

DracheReborn wrote:I was surprised to see Afterimage pop up again in my game. If you want to keep it, I would suggest making it a little more obvious when it happens. Usually I notice it only after the "Your afterimage dissipates" message pops up (and leaves me wondering what just happened).


Yup, I'm considering adding a tile marker to that effect (One with a little silhouette or something).

DracheReborn wrote:Alternative suggestion: make pressure points more likely to trigger after "combos" e.g. consecutive special moves from different weapon types.

That's interesting, unfortunately I'm not sure it would be easy to convey to the player without getting into spoiler territory.

DracheReborn wrote:Tangentially related to that, right now I think Whirlwind (for swords and maces) is a little abusable since you can just keep moving sideways in an attempt to trigger pressure points. It's harder to do the same for the other 2 special moves, well unless if you have fast move speed.


Now, this is something very interesting (and enjoyable) that I found when spectating testers; every person seems to think one of the three moves is much stronger than the others. What I found though, is that they never agree on which! It may seem at first that Whirlwind is the best because it's the most spammable, but the others have some hidden benefits. Lunge deals 150% damage and has a 200% chance to trigger Pressure Points compared to Whirlwind, and it also triggers cleave and extra stab damage for axes and SBs respectively. Pole Vault has a 130% chance to trigger PP compared to whirlwind, and aside from having a wider AOE if you position yourself right, it is a fantastic escape/kiting tool.

It is true than on an extended fight, it's likely you will use whirlwind more often than the other two, but I believe there is always a place for the three of them. Lunge in particular doesn't require as fast move speed as you might think, because it's possible to position yourself in such a way that swapping with a Lunge weapon will give you one tile of distance from the enemy (since you left your former weapon as a tile blocker) allowing you to step right back. Once you get the chance to do this, spamming Lunge is not only possible but more effective than whirlwind for single targets. Also, when you realize that Recall Weapon is essentially instant (1 aut) you see opportunities to use all three constantly, and since whirlwind is numerically the weakest, it's almost always best to swap, if you care enough about the fight to optimize.

DracheReborn wrote:Btw I feel Project Weapon should probably be at higher * level, and possibly be a little stronger, if it's to be the main panic button.


I might experiment with the cost a bit. One thing that I do in my own games that I haven't seen many people do is chain Project and Recall when under a lot of pressure. You can keep instant-recalling weapons to your hand and projecting to create multiple powerful weapons. Also, Project Weapon really does scale with weapon quality, and hence with invo, XL and piety.

DracheReborn wrote:Anyway tactical fighting with this god can be really fun, I like the way it's shaping up. I think it's still a little too strong though, maybe you need to nerf weapon quality or tie it to invo a lot more.


Thanks! I might have to do that, yes. I'm walking a fine line because I don't want people to feel like the weapons surrounding them are a nuisance more than help, but we're getting there :)

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Post Tuesday, 6th December 2016, 22:02

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Steel Neuron wrote:It is true than on an extended fight, it's likely you will use whirlwind more often than the other two, but I believe there is always a place for the three of them. Lunge in particular doesn't require as fast move speed as you might think, because it's possible to position yourself in such a way that swapping with a Lunge weapon will give you one tile of distance from the enemy (since you left your former weapon as a tile blocker) allowing you to step right back. Once you get the chance to do this, spamming Lunge is not only possible but more effective than whirlwind for single targets. Also, when you realize that Recall Weapon is essentially instant (1 aut) you see opportunities to use all three constantly, and since whirlwind is numerically the weakest, it's almost always best to swap, if you care enough about the fight to optimize.


Ha, I figured out that trick with Lunge too, and it works really well in a corridor. Still haven't done pole vault much though.

Interestingly, I've never used recall before. You're right, it's more useful than it seems at first. The god offers so many options it's easy to overlook one :D

Further balance thoughts: the weapons materializing passive feels a little strong for 0* to me. I think that can be bumped up too. Note that most gods don't offer anything substantial at 0* piety

Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 7th December 2016, 13:12

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Made it to Swamp on CBRO; the god should totally be in trunk. Comparable in many ways to a more advanced Oka, actually.

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 00:26

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Playing around with Steal/Renounce.
Got the Divine Long blade, Stole, worshipped Makh, now I am getting both Makh and Jian wraths. Still in favor and gaining piety with Makh, but he keeps punishing me.

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 07:55

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

cerealjynx wrote:Playing around with Steal/Renounce.
Got the Divine Long blade, Stole, worshipped Makh, now I am getting both Makh and Jian wraths. Still in favor and gaining piety with Makh, but he keeps punishing me.


Wow, now that's a very weird one.

I have no idea how that can happen. I just looked and I haven't forgotten a break on any switch statement. Are you sure it isn't just IJC wrath? It can do multiple things at once (Like summon weapons, set up traps and debuff you)

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 12th December 2016, 10:54

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Lots of QoL changes today!

Many players have been complaining about their skill training being interrupted by the constant flux of weapons leaving and entering the inventory. To simplify things, I've made it so worshipping IJC immediately allows you to train any weapon skill, regardless of whether you have a weapon of that type.

I refactored the weapon swap code to combat some edge cases, and thanks to this I've been able to address another concern that many people voiced: That it's a shame that distortion/vamp/contam/drain/fragile weapons don't work with the rest of the kit. I think it's a huge simplification to include them, so for the current build, IJC will protect you from all of these negative effects, but only when you swap through a god mechanic. Normal wielding and unwielding is still subject to the harmful brand effects, so be careful when you choose a main weapon.

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Post Monday, 12th December 2016, 12:54

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

When an enemy tramples you, pushing you back a square, this seems to count to activate the meteor hammer's momentum effect. Intended?

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 12th December 2016, 13:07

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Shard1697 wrote:When an enemy tramples you, pushing you back a square, this seems to count to activate the meteor hammer's momentum effect. Intended?


It should trigger on all forms of movement, so in the sense that I haven't explicitly disabled it, yes, it is intended :).

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Post Monday, 12th December 2016, 17:15

Re: New hosted branch: Ieoh Jian Council. Feedback here!

Are the aura's covering divine weapons the same as tso halo? (Improve acc etc.)
If so that might also explain mahkleb wrath.
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