Poison Arrow


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Post Thursday, 28th July 2016, 17:30

Poison Arrow

These discussions always make me wonder if people have never used Poison Arrow.

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Post Thursday, 28th July 2016, 18:00

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

Poison arrow is nice but it's not enough to carry the school, and generally speaking if you get poison arrow, you just train a little poison and a lot of conj...

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Post Friday, 29th July 2016, 02:28

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

Shard1697 wrote:Poison arrow is nice but it's not enough to carry the school, and generally speaking if you get poison arrow, you just train a little poison and a lot of conj...

If you get lot of both Poison and Conjurations, you can one-shot Orb Guardians, which is amazing as far as I'm concerned.
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Post Friday, 29th July 2016, 02:42

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

You don't need a lot of poison to do that, just some poison and a lot of conj.

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Post Friday, 29th July 2016, 04:50

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

Bolt of cold, bolt of fire, iron shot, and poison arrow are extremely similar in power. Poison arrow isn't some god spell that could single-handedly carry a school, not even combined with poisonous cloud (especially when a better version of the same spell, freezing cloud, exists).

now, Invisibility, on the other hand
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Post Friday, 29th July 2016, 06:00

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

They are similar, but Poison Arrow is better than the others against non-resistant monsters. Especially given Poison Magic's much-discussed weakness, Poison Arrow is very strong (and Poison Cloud, too, but that seems less under-appreciated).

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Post Friday, 29th July 2016, 06:14

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

The problem with Poison Arrow is that you want your generic "kill stuff" spell to be as broadly applicable as possible, which is why, given the choice between Poison Arrow and, say, Iron Shot or OoD (which has its own problems), I'd go for the latter virtually all the time.

Poisonous Cloud is even worse, it's bad from a design perspective because it's a carbon copy of another spell (with which it shares two schools) and from a gameplay perspective because that spell is also almost strictly better.

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Post Friday, 29th July 2016, 17:11

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

I totally agree that Iron Shot or OoD are more broadly useful. (Bolt of cold/fire have the same issue with resistance as Poison Arrow.)

I'm not so sure that Poison Cloud is strictly worse than Freezing Cloud: 1.) With rPois, you can cast it on yourself with no damage, and 2.) Lingering poison damage after the monster leaves the cloud.

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Post Friday, 29th July 2016, 17:41

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

Poison cloud is better than freezing cloud against frost giants, ice dragons, and anything that's cold immune but not poison immune. It's a very short list, against a rC+ creature who does not have rPois, freezing cloud is still better.

I think it's because poison can't stack enough on monsters to be meaningful past the early dungeon.

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Post Saturday, 30th July 2016, 20:38

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

If you gonna use clouds on monsters who dont have rpois you might aswell just use meph cloud, and thats the main problem with poison magic. Its only useful(in a predominant way over other types of spells) against enemies that dont have rpois, but meph is the predominant poison spell for that type of enemy(aside from a few enemies like death yaks or rupert).
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Post Monday, 1st August 2016, 19:13

Re: Poison Arrow

I'm not sure a lot of people have realized this, but the poison magic school is built around learning ignite poison. Olgreb's + ignite poison is damn close to a level 9 spell. And poison arrow does really heavy posison damage, so another 250% of that in fire damage is quite nice.

Poison Arrow by itself is more or less equal to the other level 6 spells. Poison arrow + ignite poison is depths in easy mode.

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Post Tuesday, 2nd August 2016, 20:39

Re: Poison Arrow

Reptisaurus wrote:I'm not sure a lot of people have realized this, but the poison magic school is built around learning ignite poison. Olgreb's + ignite poison is damn close to a level 9 spell. And poison arrow does really heavy posison damage, so another 250% of that in fire damage is quite nice.

Poison Arrow by itself is more or less equal to the other level 6 spells. Poison arrow + ignite poison is depths in easy mode.


Problem is... Almost everywhere else it is worse than iron shot. Try doing that poison+ignite wombo-combo in crypt, tomb, hell, pan, abyss, and you'll be kinda dissapointed when:
  Code:
Bone dragon comes into view. 3 ancient liches come into view. 4 greater mummies comes into view


I'm not saying it is bad in 3-rune run, but I'm almost certain, that poison magic is absolutelly useless in extended run. It's definatelly NOT even close to level 9 spell. Not even close to chain lightning. Same goes for poison arrow.
Guess, not every school should be equal.

Personally, I'd like to rather see this magic school totally overhauled, to Acid, or something.
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Post Tuesday, 2nd August 2016, 21:26

Re: Poison Arrow

I think devs said that poison will not be changed to acid, as acid is basically physical damage.

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Post Tuesday, 2nd August 2016, 22:49

Re: Poison Arrow

Now that most demons lots rPois+++ (or whatever they had), PArrow is actually okay at dealing with Tormentors, Fiends... Hellions, maybe? Not good vs. undead, obviously.

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Post Thursday, 4th August 2016, 05:24

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

Airwolf wrote:
Shard1697 wrote:Poison arrow is nice but it's not enough to carry the school, and generally speaking if you get poison arrow, you just train a little poison and a lot of conj...

If you get lot of both Poison and Conjurations, you can one-shot Orb Guardians, which is amazing as far as I'm concerned.


Why? It's not like Orb Guardians ever killed anyone.

Show me a spell that can take out ancient liches (iron shot, OoD, chain lightning) and/or hydras (iron shot, OoD, chain lightning) and/or orbs of fire (iron shot, OoD) and/or most fiends (iron shot, OoD) and I'll agree that it's amazing.

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Post Thursday, 4th August 2016, 07:59

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

lethediver wrote:Why? It's not like Orb Guardians ever killed anyone.


Where are the bot-queries-always-have-the-right-answers guys when they are really needed?
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Thursday, 4th August 2016, 11:44

Re: Poison Arrow

lethediver wrote:hydras

yes because parrow has trouble with those

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Post Thursday, 4th August 2016, 11:55

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

nago wrote:
lethediver wrote:Why? It's not like Orb Guardians ever killed anyone.


Where are the bot-queries-always-have-the-right-answers guys when they are really needed?


I don't know how to make it in one query, but here you go.
  Code:
BabyRage: !lg * killer="orb guardian" place="Zot:5"
beem: 1105. Haruko the Bringer of Light (L23 TrBe of The Shining One), mangled by an Orb Guardian on Zot:5 (hall_of_Zot) on 2016-07-27 04:26:12, with 481630 points after 47762 turns and 2:26:57.
BabyRage: !lg * place="Zot:5"
beem: 4701. mooon the Petrodigitator (L22 FeEE of Ru), slain by a Killer Klown on Zot:5 (hall_of_Zot) on 2016-08-04 04:17:11, with 450720 points after 85405 turns and 8:27:39.

Orb guardians are responsible for almost 25% of Zot 5 deaths.

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Post Thursday, 4th August 2016, 12:47

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

nago wrote:
lethediver wrote:Why? It's not like Orb Guardians ever killed anyone.


Where are the bot-queries-always-have-the-right-answers guys when they are really needed?


Recent:

  Code:
08:43 advil: !lg * recent place=zot:5 s=ckiller% ?: n>5
08:43 OCTOTROG: 723 games for * (recent place=zot:5): 296x an orb of fire (40.94%), 166x an Orb Guardian (22.96%), 106x an ancient lich (14.66%), 33x an electric golem (4.56%), 17x a draconian (2.35%), 15x a Killer Klown (2.07%), 13x a death cob (1.80%), 12x a pandemonium lord (1.66%), 11x a deathcap (1.52%), 11x a draconian monk (1.52%), 10x a golden dragon (1.38%), 9x a Hell Sentinel (1.24%), 8x a
08:43 OCTOTROG: draconian zealot (1.11%), 8x a storm dragon (1.11%), 8x a draconian annihilator (1.11%)


all time:

  Code:
08:43 advil: !lg * place=zot:5 s=ckiller% ?: n>5
08:43 OCTOTROG: 4577 games for * (place=zot:5): 1445x an orb of fire (31.57%), 1105x an Orb Guardian (24.14%), 628x an ancient lich (13.72%), 255x an electric golem (5.57%), 123x a draconian (2.69%), 102x a Killer Klown (2.23%), 83x a storm dragon (1.81%), 47x an Executioner (1.03%), 40x a draconian annihilator (0.87%), 40x an Ice Fiend (0.87%), 39x a pandemonium lord (0.85%), 39x a golden dragon
08:43 OCTOTROG: (0.85%), 38x a draconian zealot (0.83%), 38x a Hell Sentinel (0.83%), 38x a draconian monk (0.83%), (... truncated)


(Also, skewed actual data is a hell of a lot better than vague intuitions from introspection about (mostly) ones' own games, which is otherwise most of what passes for "fact" around here.)

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 03:28

Re: Poison Arrow

We already have two direct damage schools. We don't need Poison to become another. Down with acid-trippers!!
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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 14:36

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

advil wrote:(Also, skewed actual data is a hell of a lot better than vague intuitions from introspection about (mostly) ones' own games, which is otherwise most of what passes for "fact" around here.)


I agree with that, with the exception of my vague intuitions, which are actually 50% more correct that facts. :lol:

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 19:50

Re: Poison Arrow

Warning: A lot of whining from a bad player incoming...

jwoodward48ss wrote:We already have two direct damage schools. We don't need Poison to become another. Down with acid-trippers!!


I'd rather have even potentential with each magic school.
Filling missing gaps in utility spells for fire|earth and adding more versitile damage spells to others sounds like a best solution. Add those spells to rare spellbooks, if that sounds too op to someone.
Because nowadays, if you wanna deal damage - roll EE, FE, or Cj.
Otherwise, you're gonna get a bad, very bad time in mid and very late game if you're doing something ridiculous like I usually do - one element school only runs etc.
You can do all branches easily only with EE/Conj Spells. But you can't do that with IE effectively, forget about poison magic.
There's like an large leap between lvl 4 throw icicle and lvl 9 glaciate, which you cannot fill against ice resistant monters, and sometimes, that means - no crypt, tomb, cocytus until glaciate kicks in, which may never happen, depending on a race\background and int. Not having spells at all is worse, than not finding them.
And when I usually do an IE run, I think this way - "Now it is perfect time to go crypt. I've got everything I need, rN, plenty of stuff to survive. Oh wait. I'm an IE. Nvm. Maybe in another life. Duh"

Why's there no spells from level 6-9 in Ice magic?
Why's there no spells after level 6 in Poison magic?
Why's there no spells at level 8 in Fire magic?
Why's there no spells at level 7 in Air magic?

Let every magic school have their apropriate 9 levels of spells. Because it makes no sense for me personally.
Learning a magic school just to forget it in a long run...Well maybe Ash is usefull after all. Why not just run as FE or EE from the start?
Oh, I've got a better idea - just remove other schools than Fire and Earth. And leave utillity spells. Seems balanced.

Btw, I haven't seen in a while, that someone plays as VM in online @ Lantea. You know what's most picked background and races I see nowadays?
Mi, Fi, Be, Gl, En... It's pretty sad to me, that almost no one really tries to play any mage except EE and rarely some brave soul does OpIE.

Giff moar spells in other words つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 21:37

Re: Move either Borgnjor's or Door to Poison

lethediver wrote:
Airwolf wrote:
Shard1697 wrote:Poison arrow is nice but it's not enough to carry the school, and generally speaking if you get poison arrow, you just train a little poison and a lot of conj...

If you get lot of both Poison and Conjurations, you can one-shot Orb Guardians, which is amazing as far as I'm concerned.


Why? It's not like Orb Guardians ever killed anyone.

Show me a spell that can take out ancient liches (iron shot, OoD, chain lightning) and/or hydras (iron shot, OoD, chain lightning) and/or orbs of fire (iron shot, OoD) and/or most fiends (iron shot, OoD) and I'll agree that it's amazing.


Others have pointed out how lethal Orb Guardians actually are. When playing a blaster, I really appreciate having spend only 6 MP to kill a fast, hard-hitting monster in nasty-monster-filled Zot:5.

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Post Saturday, 6th August 2016, 19:23

Re: Poison Arrow

vergil wrote:Because nowadays, if you wanna deal damage - roll EE, FE, or Cj.
Otherwise, you're gonna get a bad, very bad time

how is FE better than IE or even AE

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Post Saturday, 6th August 2016, 20:48

Re: Poison Arrow

Sar wrote:
vergil wrote:Because nowadays, if you wanna deal damage - roll EE, FE, or Cj.
Otherwise, you're gonna get a bad, very bad time

how is FE better than IE or even AE


It is better, because there's less branches with rF than with rC, or rElec or resistant monsters overall.
You also don't need to overtrain a magic school to be able to handle with crypt/tomb enemies and skeleton warriors, simulacrums etc. It doesn't matter when you play race with 0 or + apt in Ice & Conj, but when it comes to species with lackluster int, and - apt at Ice (hello my favorite Ds), I had to farm S, S, Elf, Vaults 1-4, AND some Depths to be able atleast cast glaciate (with still high failure rate) to deal with those pesky resistant monsters. Which is not that important at 3 rune run, but makes all the difference in extended.

Whereas fireball is a bread and butter at spell level 5, which makes it easy to cast at mid game, and also it scales very well until reaching a point of Firestorm. Comparing that to "bolt" type of magic (Air), it obviosly wins in most of tactical situations.
Not to mention access to very good level 1 spell (that doesn't cause you to stand in ogre's face and getting punched meanvile. Throw frost is garbage compared to that, so is throw flame), access to conj flame (better spell power without needing to put XP), sticky flames (which is basically irresistable poison) and delayed fireball if found which allows "free" enemies destruction, fitting perfectly in a gap between level 6-9 in a school. And most of this stuff, you've got from the start. You don't need to look for fireball in other books as freezing cloud, bolt of cold, refrigeration, etc.

Book of flames got level 5 spells in it. Book of frost don't.
Book of conjurations got level 5 spells in it. Book of frost don't.
Book of air got level 5 spells in it. Book of frost don't
Book of geomancy got level 5 spells in it. Book of frost don't.
Compared to it, even Young Poisoner's Handbook is great, since it contains AoE spells and carries through early game where's Frost don't. And both got problems with resistant monsters. (Maybe Ice got less problems at dealing with those since it got Icicle)

Destroying enemies fast in early game is much, much more efficient, than using gimmicky mechanics, and praise that resistant monsters won't came up untill throw icicle is castable. FE and EE are obvious winners at this, on par with Cj, leaving AE a lit bit behind, since Sky Beasts, and IE a lot far behind, since any necro monster. Poison magic got same flaws as Ice, and as a result without a level 9 spell, it is worthless in extended.

And by not using Air Magic, you're not going to melt yourself with Ball lightnings and Chain Lightnings in a bad spot and luck.
I had better expierience at playing FE than AE because of this reasons, and smite targeting > RoTornado around you IMO. Destroying stuff even before it reaches you is much better, than probability of taking a hit in a face.

To sum it up:
FE == Cj == EE > AE > IE > VM
Remove imunnity

Maybe I'm wrong. Idk
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Post Saturday, 6th August 2016, 21:10

Re: Poison Arrow

Freeze is extremely powerful for a lvl 1 spell, way better than flame tongue, and on top of that IE has easy ticket to good defenses, plus summon ice beast. Throw icicle is very good too. Being able to slow down everything dangerous in Lair (except uniques) is way more important than whatever resistance problems you wrongly imagine you might have in extended, since you will have many tens of thousands of experience points to distribute however you want before Hell/Pan/whatever.

With good positioning and tactics, bolt spells are generally better than Fireball. (Corridors are good, you want to fight in corridors.) That's not to say that fireball doesn't come in handy. It is a very good spell, and sticky flame and conjure flame are excellent spells. FE is strong, IE is strong, I would have to say the latter is noticeably stronger though.

In early/mid game, summon ice beast is good enough to take out undeads and enemy ice beasts. By the time you start running into more dangerous rC stuff, you will have had any number of opportunities to develop means to take care of them.

EDIT: AE is strong too but I find them annoying to play. Lightning bolt tends to be too unreliable until the spell power is significantly higher than what you get from having it castable, which is a bad combination for a spell that is extremely loud. It is great once you have gotten far enough in game to feed it lots of skill XP, but until then, you have to get used to running away and resetting fights. Static discharge is really finicky. At the same time, Swiftness and Rmsl makes it hard to die, so the background is strong, but a lot less enjoyable in my experience than any other mage start aside from perhaps VM. Your mileage may vary.

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 07:49

Re: Poison Arrow

vergil wrote:Maybe I'm wrong. Idk

I really wanted to just write "you are" (I actually did but then deleted the post), but that would be kind of rude and pointless.

However, I do have one more constructive advice/suggestion - if you are having troubles with early rC enemies, use Summon Ice Beasts against them, not Throw Icicle. Low-spellpower Throw Icicle is not very fun to use. Actually, just generally get Ice Beasts before Icicle. With that spell, it's enough that you cast it successfully, you don't also need to pass a to-hit roll and get a good result on to-dam roll (well, you do, but ice beasts get multiple attempts at that, and I don't think their damage depends on spellpower at all).

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 08:33

Re: Poison Arrow

and into wrote:Freeze is extremely powerful for a lvl 1 spell, way better than flame tongue

I'd rather prefer range over damage. Since you can cast it multiple times, before enemy can even reach you. Add a conj flame, and that becames a total abuse.
Defence wise - ozocubu's is great. But here's a thing, you won't be needing it, if you're playing smart. Seriously. In mid-late game it is great, but in early game... I'd rather position myself properly, since it won't help me it a very bad situation. Ozu's -> tp out is great tho.
Sar wrote:Actually, just generally get Ice Beasts before Icicle.


If I would like to use Ice Beasts, I'd rather pick Su. Noway I'm using that garbage as a blaster. Nope.
Spoiler: show
nope.jpg
nope.jpg (6.35 KiB) Viewed 4507 times

Not in a world. Period.
Summons are op, but they're clunky, tedius, and stupid as things go out of LOS.
I get that. Ice beasts are great.

I'd rather use kite&destroy tactics.
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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 08:39

Re: Poison Arrow

vergil wrote:
and into wrote:Freeze is extremely powerful for a lvl 1 spell, way better than flame tongue

I'd rather prefer range over damage. Since you can cast it multiple times, before enemy can even reach you. Add a conj flame, and that becames a total abuse.
Defence wise - ozocubu's is great. But here's a thing, you won't be needing it, if you're playing smart. Seriously. In mid-late game it is great, but in early game... I'd rather position myself properly, since it won't help me it a very bad situation.
Sar wrote:Actually, just generally get Ice Beasts before Icicle.


If I would like to use Ice Beasts, I'd rather pick Su. Noway I'm using that garbage as a blaster. Nope.
Spoiler: show
nope.jpg

Not in a world. Period.
Summons are op, but they're clunky, tedius, and stupid as things go out of LOS.
I get that. Ice beasts are great.

I'd rather use kite&destroy tactics.

If it make you feel better about them, you can think of Ice beasts as conjure flame, but ones that can move, and attack adjacent critters, and block ranged attacks.

Seriously though, is your argument "IE are bad, because I don't like to use their best spell"?
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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 08:44

Re: Poison Arrow

"You don't need defenses/consumables if you're playing smart" is my favorite Crawl meme.

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 09:09

Re: Poison Arrow

Siegurt wrote:Seriously though, is your argument "IE are bad, because I don't like to use their best spell"?

I don't think Ice Beasts is the best IE can toss. If it is... Then you're right. Every person plays the game how they like. That's why I think IE starter kit is weaker than FE|EE|Cj. Lacking level 5 spell doesn't help either. Lack of AoE spell doesn't help too. Summons aren't "jack-of-all-trades solution", if they we're, people would not been playing Fi, but Su.
Best solution is to move freezing cloud to level 5, and add it to the book. Or do the same thing with bolt of cold.

Siegurt wrote:you can think of Ice beasts as conjure flame

Is it possible to shoot though them though?

Sar wrote:"You don't need defenses/consumables if you're playing smart" is my favorite Crawl meme.

My point is, there's a better solutions in some tactical situations rather than casting ozu's and praying for freeze to work in early game.
At the same situation, on the other hand, where you would've been standing and "tanking" monster hits, FE, EE, or Cj already would've vaporized them.
Last edited by vergil on Sunday, 7th August 2016, 09:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 09:56

Re: Poison Arrow

People say Freeze is better than Flame Tongue because it does more damage, ignores EV and ignores AC. This kind of matters on D:1 when you have like 3 MP.

It also used to stun enemies which made it even more hilariously OP. It doesn't anymore, but it's still good.

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 10:01

Re: Poison Arrow

Sar wrote:People say Freeze is better than Flame Tongue because it does more damage, ignores EV and ignores AC. This kind of matters on D:1 when you have like 3 MP.


Is there a plate mail orc, hanging around somewhere at D:1 I haven't manage to spot?
Range is better than damage, or secondary effects. There isn't much AC\EV threats like for the first 5 levels of Dungeon.
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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 10:56

Re: Poison Arrow

you do realize most monsters have EV right

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 11:27

Re: Poison Arrow

It matters a lot if you miss on early dungeon, because you can miss repeatedly(or roll shit damage with magic dart)... being at 0 MP with enemy untouched sucks for caster start.

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 11:33

Re: Poison Arrow

vergil wrote:Range is better than damage, or secondary effects. There isn't much AC\EV threats like for the first 5 levels of D.


This is totally false.
Actually, early monster (especially dangerous ones) have ridiculously high EV. This trend is true up pretty much Lair, then most of monsters have extremely low EV - in the range of 2-10 - barring some notably exceptions.
While most early monster doesn't have good AC, they tend to have equipment, so also the AC statement isn't true at all.
In pretty much every case freeze is going to do more damage, and more reliably, against any D:1-5 threat than most other lv.1-2 spells. And especially in D:1 is extremely important to kill that faster than you monster reliably instead of missing 3 times in a row, when you have 3 maxMP, nor weapon, nor armor, no AC, nor HP.

In the following list there are 4 D:1 dangerous monsters, 1 from zot and 2 from depths. Can you guess who is from without looking the bot?

  Code:
AC/EV: 1/15
AC/EV: 5/5
AC/EV: 2/10
AC/EV: 6/10
AC/EV: 2/12
AC/EV: 1/14
AC/EV: 8/4
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 12:14

Re: Poison Arrow

Shard1697 wrote:It matters a lot if you miss on early dungeon, because you can miss repeatedly(or roll shit damage with magic dart)... being at 0 MP with enemy untouched sucks for caster start.

Having a three tries from a RANGE makes a better option to choose, whether to run or keep fighting. Kite monters and destroy them. That's what I do in such situations.
There's usually a dagger\club\whip laying around for a good reason. Grab it and use it in a dire need.

If that failed and a pack of jackals ruined your start - well, it's a minute and a half ingame time. Reroll and praise for a better luck. World haven't ended there. It just you died.

nago wrote:In the following list there are 4 D:1 dangerous monsters, 1 from zot and 2 from depths. Can you guess who is from without looking the bot?


I don't know all the numbers in the world. Honestly. And it doesn't matter.

P.s. Chances of hitting a monster not THAT low. Also miscasts is a problem, but nobody tend to mention that. Crawl is a luck based game. Git lucky.

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 12:44

Re: Poison Arrow

vergil wrote:If that failed and a pack of jackals ruined your start - well, it's a minute and a half ingame time. Reroll and praise for a better luck. World haven't ended there. It just you died.


My definition of "better" is clearly different from yours
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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 12:53

Re: Poison Arrow

vergil wrote:Also miscasts is a problem

guess which spell out of Freeze and Flame Tongue requires almost twice the XP to get the same success rate

(it's the one that is half-Conjurations)

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 12:57

Re: Poison Arrow

vergil wrote:Having a three tries from a RANGE makes a better option to choose,
You haven't really established that ranged 1MP attack is better than closerange 1MP attack that ignores AC/EV, mathematically or otherwise. (Especially "ranged" attack like Flame Tongue that actually has garbage range to start.) I would much rather use Freeze than Flame Tongue/Sting/Sandblast early on, and slightly prefer it over Magic Dart. Either way you have to kite if you run out of MP, it's just that introducing chance to miss is another way you can fail and waste MP.
vergil wrote:I don't know all the numbers in the world. Honestly. And it doesn't matter.
It does matter, though.
vergil wrote:P.s. Chances of hitting a monster not THAT low. Also miscasts is a problem, but nobody tend to mention that. Crawl is a luck based game. Git lucky.
If all that matters is getting lucky, why not just roll chaos knight and hope to paralyze on every hit? This is a non-argument... games like crawl are about turning luck in your favor, managing risk. Early option that cannot miss(and does better damage than MDart) is a good example of this, especially when the earlygame is so swingy and dangerous.

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 13:02

Re: Poison Arrow

Sar wrote:guess which spell out of Freeze and Flame Tongue requires almost twice the XP to get the same success rate


Scaling both conj and element is required futher on. This is irrelevant. Both got around 10%
And with spell power, Flame Tongue gets range, and damage.
Surely it is easier to cast, but what is the point, if getting Throw Icicle\Ice Beasts is the goal? Not leveling conjuration is...Weird option for a blaster.

Freeze doesn't get range bonus. Freeze is awkward against resistant monsters. It is awkward against ranged threats. We can argue all day long, that won't change a thing.

Shard1697 wrote:I would much rather use Freeze than Flame Tongue/Sting/Sandblast early on

I'd rather prefer empowered sandblast to be sure.

Shard1697 wrote:If all that matters is getting lucky, why not just roll chaos knight and hope to paralyze on every hit? This is a non-argument... games like crawl are about turning luck in your favor, managing risk. Early option that cannot miss(and does better damage than MDart) is a good example of this, especially when the earlygame is so swingy and dangerous.

It is an argument. You can't win every fight, and every game. Getting bad rolls is inevitable, so what?
No wonder that people tend to play Fi\Be instead of casters. It is more about turning luck in you favour.
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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 13:10

Re: Poison Arrow

vergil wrote:Scaling both conj and element is required futher on. This is irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant, because we're talking about the dangerous earlygame, which freeze is most likely to get you through alive... you're the one who brought up miscast chance, anyhow!

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 13:20

Re: Poison Arrow

Shard1697 wrote:
vergil wrote:Scaling both conj and element is required futher on. This is irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant, because we're talking about the dangerous earlygame, which freeze is most likely to get you through alive... you're the one who brought up miscast chance, anyhow!

It won't, if you're getting smacked in a face trying to do so. My point is, it doesn't matter how good the spell is, it can screw you over. It will happen, eventually. Other spells will screw you over at range, where you can do something better, than running away and praying monsters won't bite you. Having that one turn of MP regen, and rolling a decent damage can be life saving.

And what about zombies and skeletons? Will it carry through them too?
Resistant monsters, that's the reason freeze isn't anyhow better than FT, Sandblast, Shock, or MD.
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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 13:32

Re: Poison Arrow

You are more likely to be screwed over by flame tongue than freeze, which is the whole point. The (not great)range advantage is not worth chance to miss.

Zombies and skeletons don't need to be carried through because they're not dangerous.

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 13:43

Re: Poison Arrow

vergil wrote:Not leveling conjuration is...Weird option for a blaster.

It's fine for an IE, I usually will get 1-2 somewhere for Throw Frost and then forget about it until Lair or so because Ice Beasts + Freeze + melee will carry me.

However, it's just my opinion. Maybe IE sucks and I'm wrong. I give up, you're a winner.

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 16:32

Re: Poison Arrow

Sar wrote:Maybe IE sucks and all good players posting in the Tavern are wrong.

FTFY
...{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}
DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}
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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 20:24

Re: Poison Arrow

What you call "playing IE as a blaster" can also be accurately described as, "I refuse to use a powerful part of my starting kit."

Assassins suck if you drop your blowgun and needles on turn 1 and play without them. FE sucks pretty bad if you refuse to memorize and use conjure flame or sticky flame (neither of which strike me as particularly "blaster-y" either, and the latter of which requires melee range, too).

vergil wrote:
Shard1697 wrote:
vergil wrote:Scaling both conj and element is required futher on. This is irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant, because we're talking about the dangerous earlygame, which freeze is most likely to get you through alive... you're the one who brought up miscast chance, anyhow!

It won't, if you're getting smacked in a face trying to do so. My point is, it doesn't matter how good the spell is, it can screw you over. It will happen, eventually. Other spells will screw you over at range, where you can do something better, than running away and praying monsters won't bite you. Having that one turn of MP regen, and rolling a decent damage can be life saving.


Yes, and it is a good thing that both FE and IE get a spell that actually has good range (unlike flame tongue), at level 2...

vergil wrote:And what about zombies and skeletons? Will it carry through them too?
Resistant monsters, that's the reason freeze isn't anyhow better than FT, Sandblast, Shock, or MD.


So, freeze is bad because it sucks against some of the least dangerous enemies in the entire game (zombies and skeletons), while it is extremely good against early adders, giant frogs, and other things that are actually deadly?

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 20:34

Re: Poison Arrow

zombies are slow

kiting/running away is possible

zombies really shouldn't kill you
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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 20:58

Re: Poison Arrow

and into wrote:What you call "playing IE as a blaster" can also be accurately described as, "I refuse to use a powerful part of my starting kit."

I got that. There must be one and only way to play the game, right? Think otherwise and you're marked as really bad player for eternity.
If I don't like summons, then what? What if I picked that background for a starting bonus to Ice and I like frost spells, but in this game they are disappointing me (comparing to other schools)? Versitale schools that isn't one. Funny it is.
I got that it meant to be a school for melee robe dudes that likes tingle themselves with icy fur beasts at night.

and into wrote:So, freeze is bad because it sucks against some of the least dangerous enemies in the entire game (zombies and skeletons), while it is extremely good against early adders, giant frogs, and other things that are actually deadly?


And good agains ogre zombies, and centaur skeletons, water mocasin zombies, and everything else that can be necrofied, which may appear as OOD rather frequently.
I'm not saying it "sucks". I'm saying it is less viable than other level 1 spells for no obvious reason.
Press za to win for a FE, EE, Cj and AE. What are you saying? You're IE or VM? Oh no no no. Learn more magic and come again, or use that mighty -9 whip of slaying {-99 slay, Butthurt+} and Ozocubu's Miscast Armor for extra glow-flavour!
If it meant to be that way, just because "it never misses == too good, would never use anything else. Git gud", what's next?

and into wrote:while it is extremely good against early adders, giant frogs, and other things that are actually deadly?


Does anyone even realize in this thread, that using empowered sandblast oneshots most of the things in very early game from a RANGE, and has 0 resistance problems whatsoever? Twoshots ogres, oneshots orcs. Freeze is still better !1111
Yep. Freeze is too good.
Nobody believes that Ice starting kit requires thoughtfull rework. Same goes to Poison Magic, which is total forgotten abomination of a problem @ 0.19 compared to others schools.
Sorry guys. I'm wrong because of having a different look from another perspective. I'm done with it. Mock me, and laugh at me. Go on.
Last edited by vergil on Sunday, 7th August 2016, 21:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 21:09

Re: Poison Arrow

Sandblast is really great, yeah.

There are lots of ways to play the game, and you should play it however you like. But if someone's preferred play style involves substantially weakening a particular background, then he or she shouldn't be too quick to claim that the background is weak/needs a rework/etc.

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