Give Formicids their giant clubs back


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Post Monday, 18th July 2016, 20:11

Give Formicids their giant clubs back

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GSCs are not very good in the early game because of how slow they are. It takes training to make a GSC good, and Formicids at are a disadvantage to Ogres here; +0 aptitude vs +3.

So what do you get after you've trained all of that skill? Well, a big-ass hulk-damage beat stick is what you end up with, but all that damage comes with a nasty opportunity cost: the loss of your shield. +30 SH cannot be understated. The loss of your shield is a really, really, big weakness.

With GSCs you become a glass cannon. You get to dish out 1.1x more damage but take thrice as many hits. It's a weapon that's risky and totally not worth it if you're going for streaks.

Why are we removing choices from the player?

Executioner axes are the best weapons a Formicid can hope for. In fact, they're better than other weapons by a pretty large margin, and it's a no-brainer to pick axes whenever starting a game with Fo. The introduction of Riposte didn't help things at all. Triple swords used to be a fun and semi-viable choice for ants, but now they're absolutely terrible and worse than great maces. Remember great maces? Yeah, those things used to be very common and found all over the dungeon, but now they're rare.

To get back to my point: Axes are the best weapon for Fo by a large margin. That's boring. We should fix that.
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Post Monday, 18th July 2016, 21:17

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

I dunno, I used GSCs to win two experimental-dwants back when they had -20 HP, and it felt pretty easy/strong. Then again, back then shields were considered useless so I just rolled with the meta.
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Post Monday, 18th July 2016, 23:24

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

pubby wrote:To get back to my point: Axes are the best weapon for Fo by a large margin. That's boring. We should fix that.
Disagreed! IMO proper Fo play means very careful positioning and a lot of murderholes, which means you(IMO) either want to go maces(despite no GSC, are the best weapon for practical 1v1 damage-no idea what you're talking about wrt great maces, they're not as common as they used to be but they're still fairly common and do good damage for both their skill investment and their rarity) or polearms if you are utilizing allies in some way.
Like, my Fo win was with an axe, but that was also a Qazlal win and just a crash course of bad decisions in general.

That said I agree that there didn't and doesn't seem to be an actual strong case for the GSC removal-I certainly don't remember GSC Formicids actually dominating, just some people saying repeatedly that they did.
Last edited by Shard1697 on Monday, 18th July 2016, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 05:18

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Shard1697 wrote:Disagreed! IMO proper Fo play means very careful positioning and a lot of murderholes, which means you(IMO) either want to go maces(despite no GSC, are the best weapon for practical 1v1 damage-no idea what you're talking about wrt great maces

You're 100% correct that position and murderholes is everything, except it's not really everything because sometimes you'll get into fights where you're surrounded and you can't dig and that's how you die. Cleaving would have helped!
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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 06:03

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Taking more damage trying to cleave a bunch of things wouldn't have helped, nor would doing less damage for more skill have helped. A great mace or triple sword would be more helpful for a formicid than an executioner's axe.

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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 17:15

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Lets be real, nobody picks formicid to have fun with it.
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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 17:54

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

dynast wrote:Lets be real, nobody picks formicid to have fun with it.


I do~

Anyway I can't think of any flavorwise reason why four strong arms couldn't lift those bloody things. Maybe there should be a gameplay wise penalty for size but still allow wielding?
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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 18:33

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

The gameplay penalty is you don't get a shield.
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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 18:40

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Shard1697 wrote:The gameplay penalty is you don't get a shield.


Yeah, I remember that bit. I haven't played without shields long enough to tell how bad that is is all, sorry.
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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 19:02

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Definitely worse for Formicids than other species because of their good shield aptitude and since they only need 9/15 skill to remove penalties on normal/large shields, respectively.

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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 19:13

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Giving up a shield for the option of a low skill, high damage weapon is kind of an interesting choice (for the GC). 17 base damage for 20 skill, plus you get to wear a shield if you take a great mace, 20 base damage for 18 skill, but no shield if you take a GC. Or... 22 base damage for 24 skill and no shield with a GSC, but that's not really a very competitive option anyway.

I don't think either option's really a no-brainer, so I think the OP is right that having the option presents an interesting choice for the player.

I have no comment about the axes thing, but I think that's actually irrelevant to the OPs request.

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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 19:32

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

the thing is

if you want to play a glass cannon, the option already exists in the game, play an ogre. ogres do a better job of being a glass cannon than formicids because their defenses are even worse than formicids at any point in the game (except for that magical moment where you find a hat and enchant armour scrolls before any other armour, I guess) and their damage output is better than formicid due to their apts and s/3 growth. if you want to make the experience even more authentic then don't use tele/blink/haste/berserk I guess. ogres also suffer more from a loss of shields than fo since their ac/ev is bad for the majority of the game

from a design standpoint giving formicids access to giant clubs undercuts their concept, which is insane defenses (guaranteed shield, positive armour/shield apts, positioning through digging) in exchange for stasis

finally there's plenty of flavour to justify why they can't use giant clubs: having an extra set of arms doesn't magically make you able to wield tree trunks when you are a human sized species

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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 19:38

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Then get rid of the formicid ability to wield two-handed weapons in one hand, please.

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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 19:42

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

But what if you just want to play a Fo with a GSC? I dont think this is a major change, its seems like a very trivial one, considering how rare decent clubs are, unless you go Trog, but come on, Fo of Trog?
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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 19:44

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

CanOfWorms wrote:if you want to play a glass cannon, the option already exists in the game, play an ogre. ogres do a better job of being a glass cannon than formicids because their defenses are even worse than formicids at any point in the game (except for that magical moment where you find a hat and enchant armour scrolls before any other armour, I guess) and their damage output is better than formicid due to their apts and s/3 growth. if you want to make the experience even more authentic then don't use tele/blink/haste/berserk I guess

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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 19:50

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Formicid's big gimmicks are
#1 stasis!
#2 Digging!
#3 wield 2 hander and a shield!


#4 (used to be) can wield giant weapons, but no shield.
#5 (used to be) can throw giant rocks

Their main gimmick is stasis, and digging to make up for it, but as originally conceived they could also use giant sized weapons, but gave up their shield. I don't think being super good defensively is really their main selling point, although it makes sense along with the stasis.

Maybe people don't want to use a GC to be a glass cannon, since they can still wear armor and train defenses and everything. Maybe they want formicids to have one of the same interesting choices as the other races, use a shield and do a bit less damage, or use a 2 hander and do more damage.
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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 19:51

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

CanOfWorms wrote:
CanOfWorms wrote:if you want to play a glass cannon, the option already exists in the game, play an ogre. ogres do a better job of being a glass cannon than formicids because their defenses are even worse than formicids at any point in the game (except for that magical moment where you find a hat and enchant armour scrolls before any other armour, I guess) and their damage output is better than formicid due to their apts and s/3 growth. if you want to make the experience even more authentic then don't use tele/blink/haste/berserk I guess


I think this is less about robotvision gameplay and more about the flavor and variety aspects. For example, I probably won't ever play an ogre unless I someday want to win with each background. I just don't like the idea. But I love playing as gargoyles and felids, that's just aesthetically pleasing to me.
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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 19:53

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

dowan wrote:Their main gimmick is stasis, and digging to make up for it, but as originally conceived they could also use giant sized weapons, but gave up their shield. I don't think being super good defensively is really their main selling point, although it makes sense along with the stasis.

being able to dig and the guarantee to be able to use a shield, which generally means you have better defenses through fighting less enemies simultaneously and taking less damage, isn't their main selling point? i mean, if you feel that having insane defenses isn't their selling point then I agree with duvessa and they should just lose the ability to wield two handed weapons with shields rather than give them access to gscs

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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 19:55

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

CanOfWorms wrote:having an extra set of arms doesn't magically make you able to wield tree trunks


Or, alternatively, having an extra set of arms does magically make you able to wield tree trunks... (I mean, it isn't like ogres with low strength attribute are barred from using giant weapons, so really the flavor is kind of inconsistent no matter how you go.)

CanOfWorms wrote:from a design standpoint giving formicids access to giant clubs undercuts their concept, which is insane defenses (guaranteed shield, positive armour/shield apts, positioning through digging) in exchange for stasis


This take on Fo's design certainly describes one way to approach them, but it seems to me a little like saying, "spriggans are the 'enchanter/assassin' species."

The choice of "two-hander w/shield, better two-hander w/out shield" was unique to formicids. This does strongly encourage them to use M&F, but they are no more railroaded into that weapon type than, e.g., hill orcs are railroaded into axes or merfolk into polearms (or ogres into M&F) — much less so, if anything. (pubby at least thinks axes are a no-brainer for them, for example!) I'd say Fo suffer plenty from the loss of a shield, seeing as they have perma-stasis and low HP. On the other hand giant clubs are strong common weapons. So I think it does present an interesting choice.

Ogres' choice of weapon is generally less interesting, I think. Aptitudes make them go M&F regardless, and shields for them often means you are stuck using a morningstar, except in rare cases when a demon whip or eveningstar drops reasonably early. Fo by contrast have a choice between using dire flails + shield while looking for a great mace, or they can pick up a common g(s)c and forgo shields; the trade-offs there are a bit more interesting, more consistently.

So while I definitely don't feel as strongly as pubby about this, I do think Fo is more interesting if they have the option of using g(s)c w/out shields.

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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 19:57

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Here's the original proposal if you're interested. https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8298

You can see in the original proposal they were meant to be able to wield a GSC with all 4 arms. So I'd say being able to always use a shield can't have been their main selling point. Of course, they've changed a bit since then, so you're probably not the only one who sees it that way.

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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 20:01

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

and then a dev decided no, the ability to have insane defenses is their conceit

and into wrote:Or, alternatively, having an extra set of arms does magically make you able to wield tree trunks... (I mean, it isn't like ogres with low strength attribute are barred from using giant weapons, so really the flavor is kind of inconsistent no matter how you go.)

i edited the original post to clarify that it's the ogre's size (and the formicid's lack of size) that allows them to wield tree trunks

and into wrote:This take on Fo's design certainly describes one way to approach them, but it seems to me a little like saying, "spriggans are the 'enchanter/assassin' species."

no, it's more like saying spriggans are the "stupidly fast" species, because that's what their conceit is
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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 20:07

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

I'd counter that overspecializing races kind of makes them less like players and more like monsters; that is, the players have much less choice.
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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 20:09

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Yeah, although I question the logic in that post that a GSC was a no-brainer for formicids even when they could use it. Back then triple swords had 19 base damage, 19 damage plus a shield is usually better than 22 damage without a shield. I think even then it was an interesting choice, and the change to shield penalties for them only made it even more interesting!

Did formicids still have rP- when that change was made? I had kind of forgotten about that, it may have been their #1 defining feature for a while, since they were pretty much the race that died to the first adder they saw most of the time...

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Post Tuesday, 19th July 2016, 22:49

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

dowan wrote:Yeah, although I question the logic in that post that a GSC was a no-brainer for formicids even when they could use it.
That's because the logic is terrible, going with giant clubs on old Fo was generally worse than using a shield unless you were with Trog (because of Trog gifted gc/gscs).
DracoOmega's justification for that change made no sense then and it makes no sense now, unless it is specifically supposed to be a no-brainer to use a shield with Fo...apparently according to CanOfWorms, it is, and we're somehow supposed to not have a problem with that.

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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 00:30

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

do players have a problem with bardings and aux slots?
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 01:57

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

btw not to kick a dead horse too much, but in case people mention the "but they're heavy, more arms wouldn't make you able lift it" thing again-Formicids can use the Dark Maul just fine, and even with a shield. That's a weapon that is not only described as being massively powerful due to being so heavy, but it has huge base delay and 52 base damage, which is more than double the base damage of a giant spiked club. It definitely seems like "would this be awkward to handle with this many hands" is more important than "weight", in crawl's flavor. (After all, it's not like you need more Str to lift a great mace than a lajatang either).

(as a sidenote Fo with Dark Maul and a large shield is really fun)

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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 02:09

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

humans can lift the dark maul fine too? in either case flavour can go either way on this issue so you can't really use it to justify either side of the argument
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 02:13

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Right, humans can also lift the dark maul because how "heavy is it" is not ever a factor in whether you can wield, only "how big is it", which is different-dark maul is really heavy, which is as the description says, why it is so slow and strong-but it is no BIGGER than a normal 2H weapon. So, it is a normal 2H weapon in regards to "can I wield it or not". There is no precedent for heaviness mattering WRT wielding things in crawl.

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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 13:25

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

CanOfWorms wrote:do players have a problem with bardings

Only those who think its a good idea to have evasion on a Ce/Na.

Edit: In other news, spriggan riders still wield a spear and buckler.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 14:28

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

dynast wrote:Lets be real, nobody picks formicid to have fun with it.

thats you only i guess
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 14:49

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Agree, this should not have been removed. Even if shields are almost always going to be the better choice, it's good fun to be able to do silly stuff like this. Formicids tend to play the same way every game in my experience. It would be good to have another option.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 15:55

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Dungeoneer wrote:
dynast wrote:Lets be real, nobody picks formicid to have fun with it.

thats you only i guess

I was being ironic towards the arguments of optimal play choices.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 19:58

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

CanOfWorms wrote:and then a dev decided no, the ability to have insane defenses is their conceit
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 20:12

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Hm, but what if the dev was wrong?
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 20:16

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

i'm sure one of the many other devs would have reverted the change, then

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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 20:19

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Heh, well original intent is an interesting discussion and all, but not terribly relevant to this topic. Plus we already went over this exact line of conversation once in this thread...

If the devs decide that dev was right and say "No" that's that, but there's no reason not to explore the idea. Plus, a lot of things have changed since Formicids were added anyway. So why not look at the current situation, rather than an old irrelevant situation?
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 21:13

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

goodcoolguy wrote:Agree, this should not have been removed. Even if shields are almost always going to be the better choice, it's good fun to be able to do silly stuff like this. Formicids tend to play the same way every game in my experience. It would be good to have another option.


I think this sums up the problem rather well. Formicids must use a shield, because it's all which makes up for their lack of teleport, haste and rage (shaft and dig and sensing enemies don't really make up for it). This makes spellcasting and stealthy builds problematic for a large part of the game. Giving them big clubs makes for adding variety to the race. Unless there is a balance problem, I see it as well doable. I mean, I think limitations should serve avoiding broken mechanics (like a hypothetical Gargoyle with big clubs), not to limit balanced (or even suboptimal) player options, like a poor bug with a big stick but no AC or EV bonus and cursed with stasis.
Large rocks would be too much, but large clubs (without shields) should be no problem.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 21:15

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Shtopit wrote:
goodcoolguy wrote:Agree, this should not have been removed. Even if shields are almost always going to be the better choice, it's good fun to be able to do silly stuff like this. Formicids tend to play the same way every game in my experience. It would be good to have another option.


I think this sums up the problem rather well. Formicids must use a shield, because it's all which makes up for their lack of teleport, haste and rage (shaft and dig and sensing enemies don't really make up for it). This makes spellcasting and stealthy builds problematic for a large part of the game. Giving them big clubs makes for adding variety to the race. Unless there is a balance problem, I see it as well doable. I mean, I think limitations should serve avoiding broken mechanics (like a hypothetical Gargoyle with big clubs), not to limit balanced (or even suboptimal) player options, like a poor bug with a big stick but no AC or EV bonus and cursed with stasis.
Large rocks would be too much, but large clubs (without shields) should be no problem.


What about large rocks with no shield? Supposedly the rocks and clubs are about the same weight/size. Or am I underestimating the power of caveman tools?

But otherwise I agree.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 21:18

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Shtopit wrote:I think this sums up the problem rather well. Formicids must use a shield, because it's all which makes up for their lack of teleport, haste and rage (shaft and dig and sensing enemies don't really make up for it). This makes spellcasting and stealthy builds problematic for a large part of the game.

shields have no stealth penalties, and their spellcasting penalties are not noticeable on a book start Fo since they only need 9/15 shields skill for a shield/large shield with no penalties

again, if the problem is that shields are a no-brainer for fo then there is an easy way to fix that without having to give them access to giant clubs which duvessa pointed out earlier: just remove their two handed one hand gimmick
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 21:21

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

CanOfWorms wrote:
Shtopit wrote:I think this sums up the problem rather well. Formicids must use a shield, because it's all which makes up for their lack of teleport, haste and rage (shaft and dig and sensing enemies don't really make up for it). This makes spellcasting and stealthy builds problematic for a large part of the game.

shields have no stealth penalties, and their spellcasting penalties are not noticeable on a book start Fo since they only need 9/15 shields skill for a shield/large shield with no penalties

again, if the problem is that shields are a no-brainer for fo then there is an easy way to fix that without having to give them access to giant clubs which duvessa pointed out earlier: just remove their two handed one hand gimmick


please leave sir

But in all seriousness why would you remove one of their defining features. That's like healing a broken leg by sawing it off. We're civilized now, that's not necessary.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 22:05

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Please remember everyone that pubby, just like the author, is dead, and that "original intent" is at best a meaningless concept, and at worst actively harmful to discussion.
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Post Wednesday, 20th July 2016, 22:47

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

Is there any real argument against this other than "muh design space"? I could just as well argue that Ogres' design space is to have no defenses except (effectively) the 5 button since that is pretty much what actually happens with Ogres. Trolls can still use GSCs, but it's suboptimal. It'd probably be suboptimal to use a GSC on a Fo most of the time. I don't see how you can look at a race with permastasis and think "Yep, the conceit of this race is actually having high defenses, letting them use a GSC steps on the toes of Ogres! It's definitely not perma-stasis, no way."
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Post Thursday, 21st July 2016, 12:46

Re: Give Formicids their giant clubs back

It's always suboptimal to use a GSC, but a GC might actually make sense in some situations. Regardless I think it's a good thing if the game allows you to do suboptimal things.

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