Soliciting opinions on scroll improvement

[QTQuazar]

Three scrolls in mind in particular:

Holy Word: I think Holy Word should not only cause the usual dispel/convulsion damage, but should also have a high-random chance (scaling with monster HD) of slowing, confusing, fear, or paralyzing affected enemies. Right now, the scroll is basically useless by the time you find a use for/ID it, especially for its rarity--either you have far more suitable/destructive alternatives--or you've learned to compensate against demonic and undead hordes. giving status effects to enemies could potentially help turn a large battle, without overpowering the scroll's use, since you wouldn't know the exact outcome. the scroll's rarity could be kept exactly as is, and it would be worth carrying and conserving at this point as a potential means to escape or shift a large battle's balance.

Silence: basically this seems to be a watered down version of the actual spell, and it too is pretty useless. again, by the time you find a use for/ID it (IF you even find it), casters will already have the spell or will, like fighters, have an alternative caster shutdown strategy. i would change this instead so that the spell emanates from the point of casting, not from the caster him/her/itself. this provides its own tactical advantage and risk, making the scroll worth preserving. you can mine it in an enemy group and then port out, and will have a few turns to potentially wreak whatever havoc you can or escape. it would be another strategically 'savable' scroll, and since there's barely any of them in the game, it might give an edge for truly desperate situations or zones like Tomb/Zigs/Pan where you know you're going to be in trouble.

Summoning: make the summoned ally scale with evocations skill. this scroll is absolutely useless by mid-game. by changing it, it would still be largely useless, unless you had a dedicated evoker, which is rare enough in Crawl that this scroll could actually become a useful assist for such a character. Ditch the good god stigma (as described by the wiki) as well (what? this scroll needed to be made even *more* useless?)

[galehar]

I don't think any of those scroll is as bad as you make them. I agree that holy word is tricky to use, maybe something can be done for this one. But silence is fine and summoned abomination are quite powerful. And no, we're not making any scroll effect scale with evocations. The skill already has a wide range of application: wands, rods, misc items and evokable property of randarts and jewellery. That's enough. We can add or change misc items, but no effect on scrolls.

[RFHolloway]

like fighters, have an alternative caster shutdown strategy.

e.g. a large axe of anti magic?

[QTQuazar]

ah, too bad, i think more could be done with these scrolls strategically, but just my opinion. perhaps HW could have an improved effect, as proposed, if you aren't currently worshipping a god at all?

i can't help but disagree on scroll of summoning though. abominations have 27hp--they're wall paste by mid game.

part of the reasoning for silence is that, IMO, scroll powers don't emanate from the caster, they emanate from the scroll. currently, silence doesn't help you run away, which would be its major use, IMO. if you get out of range of the spellcaster, it can currently ping/nuke you.

[galehar]

i can't help but disagree on scroll of summoning though. abominations have 27hp--they're wall paste by mid game.

abomination stats are randomised. They'll lose their effectiveness about mid-game, but so do plenty of items.

[QTQuazar]

i can't help but disagree on scroll of summoning though. abominations have 27hp--they're wall paste by mid game.

abomination stats are randomised. They'll lose their effectiveness about mid-game, but so do plenty of items.

I have to learn to stop quoting from the wiki...

[XuaXua]

I've mentioned it before; I think scroll power could be aided by varying based on Evocations skill.

[pratamawirya]

part of the reasoning for silence is that, IMO, scroll powers don't emanate from the caster, they emanate from the scroll. currently, silence doesn't help you run away, which would be its major use, IMO. if you get out of range of the spellcaster, it can currently ping/nuke you.

What if the scroll always silences the whole LOS (unlike the range of the spell version which shrinks over time)?

[QTQuazar]

part of the reasoning for silence is that, IMO, scroll powers don't emanate from the caster, they emanate from the scroll. currently, silence doesn't help you run away, which would be its major use, IMO. if you get out of range of the spellcaster, it can currently ping/nuke you.

What if the scroll always silences the whole LOS (unlike the range of the spell version which shrinks over time)?

My feeling is that scrolls should do something essentially different from what a spell does, and should provide a different kind of tactical/situational use, if possible. I considered making the regular spell cone-shaped, emanating from the caster (like a directed yell), and the scroll radius-based, emanating from the scroll itself. I think the first would actually make the spell harder to use, since if you turned your back to the enemy you'd be vulnerable again--but then it doesn't make sense, since IRL you'd just walk backwards to keep facing the enemy, though at a reduced speed--an then we're into ridiculous to implement mechanics.

Instead, to me it just make sense to use the scroll as a kind of silence bomb, as a last means of escape, particularly when surrounded or approached by overwhelming smiters/casters. This provides a viable option (though unlikely, due to the scroll's rarity), for late-game players who don't want to abuse the necromutation/summoning routes in 'certain' situations, giving weapon-wielders a bit more advantage over the current heavy caster-favoritism.

[absolutego]

silence is mostly an offensive weapon. you use it before a battle, not when things go wrong and you must flee.

[QTQuazar]

silence is mostly an offensive weapon. you use it before a battle, not when things go wrong and you must flee.

technically, depending on char type and if you know how to use it, it's both. it's defensive value actually outweighs its offensive value in the game, although i agree it is often used more often for offense.

part of the reasoning for silence is that, IMO, scroll powers don't emanate from the caster, they emanate from the scroll. currently, silence doesn't help you run away, which would be its major use, IMO. if you get out of range of the spellcaster, it can currently ping/nuke you.

What if the scroll always silences the whole LOS (unlike the range of the spell version which shrinks over time)?

also, can't do this because it would make Tomb/Tomb-level zigs too easy (you'd be unassailable from anything outside, since nothing would be 'outside'). I'm betting the designers already figured that and limited the range for that reason. i don't think even the regular spell at Air 27 will allow you a full LOS.

i'm also guessing part of the real reluctance to the Silence change i propose is that, for casters, you could double-or-multiple-silence, covering even more ground. that's a problem, now that i think about it, although i can't imagine you'd get enough scrolls of silence to do it more than a couple of times.

[Bim]

I've got to say that I agree with QT completely. All of these scrolls seem useless by mid/late game, and although occasionally useful now and again they don't seem strong enough (especially summoning!) for any other use than if you've been careless.

The problem is that everyone's play style is different, and as such scrolls/wands may have more or less of an impact. I make sure I do everything slowly and branch in an optimum order for my particular race, however I have a friend that plays and goes out of depth and relies on scrolls and wands to make it through. Both are valid, but I hardly ever use scrolls past mid game, in which they mostly lose their effectiveness. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the ones pointed out by QT could do with some tweaking, possibly just making them more potent or less rare (still rare, but perhaps slightly more common earlier).

If it scaled with Evo then that'd make these items a lot more useful later on and make players give more tactical thought to conserving and using items wisely, rather than just using them up if they mess up or as a 'why not' moment. But as mentioned Evo has a large number of uses anyway. Possibly slighttttlyyy with level or with spellpower/charms/hexes??

[Tiber]

also, can't do this because it would make Tomb/Tomb-level zigs too easy (you'd be unassailable from anything outside, since nothing would be 'outside'). I'm betting the designers already figured that and limited the range for that reason. i don't think even the regular spell at Air 27 will allow you a full LOS.

I thought that was what the !sil flag was for. The decaying radius seemed something so you couldn't completely rely on it.

Personally though, I'd be happy if that scroll was less rare. I pretty much never see that scroll anymore.

[Regnix]

I've mentioned this before, but its worth another mention:

Scrolls of Detect Curse should detect curses on everything within LOS and not just in your inventory. It'd eliminate tedious juggling at your stash.

I was going to add it to the wiki, I could see how to edit pages, but I couldn't immediately see how to create a new one..

[XuaXua]

I've mentioned this before, but its worth another mention:

Scrolls of Detect Curse should detect curses on everything within LOS and not just in your inventory. It'd eliminate tedious juggling at your stash.

I was going to add it to the wiki, I could see how to edit pages, but I couldn't immediately see how to create a new one..

I like it. I'd almost say put it in as a support request to the bug tracker, but I'm not sure devs would approve.

[Bim]

I also like it, perhaps if they were made very (verrry) slightly more rare that would make them not overly buffed.
I find I hardly ever use them after the absolute beginning as remove curse isn't too hard to find and neither is identify. I only ever really use them if I need to find a specific weapon/resist (say axe of holy wrath for tomb as a random example) and need to go hunting back in orc/wherever and pick up all enchants for one. And even them, I only need one or two after dropping everything else at stash.
Having it identify all in LOS would allow them to be more easily usable, and as you said, get rid of pointless inventory juggling. whilst searching thru orc weapons.

[Zuboki]

i'm also guessing part of the real reluctance to the Silence change i propose is that, for casters, you could double-or-multiple-silence, covering even more ground. that's a problem, now that i think about it, although i can't imagine you'd get enough scrolls of silence to do it more than a couple of times.

The real question is, after you use the first scroll of silence, how exactly would you use a second?

[jejorda2]

i'm also guessing part of the real reluctance to the Silence change i propose is that, for casters, you could double-or-multiple-silence, covering even more ground. that's a problem, now that i think about it, although i can't imagine you'd get enough scrolls of silence to do it more than a couple of times.

The real question is, after you use the first scroll of silence, how exactly would you use a second?

The OP proposes that the area of silence would be fixed even after the reader of the scroll moves. So you could read, run, and read again outside the cone of silence.

[QTQuazar]

i'm also guessing part of the real reluctance to the Silence change i propose is that, for casters, you could double-or-multiple-silence, covering even more ground. that's a problem, now that i think about it, although i can't imagine you'd get enough scrolls of silence to do it more than a couple of times.

The real question is, after you use the first scroll of silence, how exactly would you use a second?

The OP proposes that the area of silence would be fixed even after the reader of the scroll moves. So you could read, run, and read again outside the cone of silence.

The bigger problem is that you could read, run, and then cast the actual SPELL outside the area of effect, creating a channel of silence rather than just a radius. Sadly, I have to retract my idea for that scroll, I don't think it works. It would be too easy to abuse.

[Kate]

Right, silence doesn't really make for a particularly great scroll seeing as it's useless for casters (they can just learn the spell) but very powerful for pure melee characters (hence being so rare).

Holy word is probably fine, it should just mention the fact that it stuns the things it affects for a few turns in the description, since that's the major lifesaving effect of it in the late game (it also gets boosted power if you're worshipping a good god, even more so if it's TSO). And summoning is fine too, the abominations are very nice and useful for a good chunk of the early game. Nothing wrong with them losing appeal later on really, it's not like you carry wands of magic darts with you into Zot either.

[asdu]

I'm surprised nobody in this thread has yet pointed out the real problem with the scroll of silence as currently implemented: it appears in approximately 1% of 15-rune games. The things are so absurdly rare that most players ignore their existence altogether.

This. I've never come across 2 scrolls of silence in the same game, including 15 rune runs where I cleared every single vault I could find. This means that in the games where I DID find one, it was invariably wasted by read-ID'ing it.
I don't see why it couldn't be made more common, on par with, say, scrolls of holy word or potions of stat gain. I doubt this single change will bring about a new era of MDFi domination

[KoboldLord]

A change that benefits non-casting melee-oriented characters at the expense of casters is obviously not okay. A scroll of silence allows these non-casting melee-oriented characters to absolutely trivialize any caster enemy. Once. Which is a fairly modest subset of the set of dangerous enemies. And specifically excludes almost the entire post-endgame because demons are immune. And it lasts a pretty short time, so you better act quick. How can we justify allowing heavy armor types to clear a branch ending or defeat a dangerous casting unique before a caster with equal experience?

[Yet Another Stupid Noob]

A change that benefits non-casting melee-oriented characters at the expense of casters is obviously not okay. A scroll of silence allows these non-casting melee-oriented characters to absolutely trivialize any caster enemy. Once. Which is a fairly modest subset of the set of dangerous enemies. And specifically excludes almost the entire post-endgame because demons are immune. And it lasts a pretty short time, so you better act quick. How can we justify allowing heavy armor types to clear a branch ending or defeat a dangerous casting unique before a caster with equal experience?

I cannot tell if this is sarcasm or not.

[galehar]

I cannot tell if this is sarcasm or not.

I can

[XuaXua]

It's KoboldLord.

[mrbobbyg]

Just want to second (or third) the idea that detect curse should work on all items in LoS. That would make stashing items for later ID a lot less tiring.

Overall though, I want to say THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SUCH AN AMAZING GAME!

Sorry to shout. I just love this game and I appreciate all the work and care that goes into it.