Qazlal Rework

[dynast]

Qazlal has a interesting flavor that is ruined by how poorly executed his passive is. His flavor is not supposed to be noise, but elements. I believe it would be interesting for a god of elements to support, in a better way than just cloud immunity, spells aswell. To adress that i propose:

Removal of passive cloud generation - Qazlal will instead have a chance to generate clouds based on the brand of attacks and spells used by the player.
Removal of magic cost from Qazlal abilities - If necessary, piety cost should be increased to compensate.
(not necessary)Elemental enhancer based on wielded weapon brand, stacks with staff enhancer, enhances all elements for the unrandart "Elemental Staff".

New ability: Elemental Might - For a short duration, elemental attacks and spells may generate aditional effects, as follows:
Fire may cause sticky flame;
Earth may cause weak disintegration(as in the target is crushed with such might that it break their bodies apart);
Air may cause electrical bursts(similar to shock serpent);
Ice may cause flash freeze or slow.

[lethediver]

Hmm, clouds are the only interesting thing about Qaz tho.

[dynast]

Hmm, clouds are the only interesting thing about Qaz tho.

thats just not true.

[amaril]

Well, he is Qazlal Stormbringer; I think the noise makes sense flavor-wise, and it really is what makes playing him unique. I like that there are some 'challenge gods' and think that chei is well designed, even if he is terrible. That being said, in practice qaz is the god of stairdancing, which is kind of lame.

[johlstei]

You're want to remove his main drawback with no replacement? Isn't the noise like,fundamental to the god's design? I don't understand the purpose of this change.

[dynast]

Its because you think the noise is fundamental to the god's design. Noise is a interesting game mechanic when left untouched. I dont think Qaz needs a drawback.

[phloomp]

I think that noise is fundamental to the god's design. It is a bit of a shame that it overwhelms the normal noise mechanics, but that would argue for replacing it with mark or something rather than removing it.

The rest of your proposal is attractive.

I too find the clouds kind of meh - they nearly preclude summons and they're visually annoying (although I only recently learned that you can make them invisible, so maybe I'll change my mind). On the other hand I like that they encourage kiting while the noise discourages it. Maybe it should be possible to ask Qaz to turn them on and off?

Unrelated to your specific proposals, but maybe it should take longer to go up stairs as a Qaz worshipper? The "God of stairdancing" thing is a real turnoff. Maybe flavour it as the stairs lurching and vibrating in your presence.

[crate]

FWIW Qaz was designed without the noise thing, if you read the original topic. In fact this means that Qaz as conceptualized never made it into crawl at all, because the constant noise very much overwhelms any other design.

I think constant noise is not a good mechanic but I do not feel like saying more on this topic so I'll just continue never worshiping Qazlal unless he changes to god of something other than noise.

[phloomp]

Whoa, I never woud have guessed that. I just assumed the idea from the beginning was "You fight constant hordes of enemies, and get defenses and clouds to slow them down."

[Tiktacy]

Coming from someone who has won a draconian of qazlal, I think the noise mechanic is the best part of his design. Without it, he would be fairly boring and kind of unoriginal. Please don't change that, same with cloud generation.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Thing is, almost any god could be given Qazlal's conduct, and it would make as much sense since they all give tools to handle messy situations, except Dith and Ash I suppose. hmmm, constant noise as difficulty setting? >.> <.< nah

[dynast]

Coming from someone who has won a draconian of qazlal, I think the noise mechanic is the best part of his design. Without it, he would be fairly boring and kind of unoriginal. Please don't change that, same with cloud generation.

As someone who is currently playing a draconian of qazlal, i can tell you the exact opposite. 90% of my run consists of going upstairs downtairs, the other 10% is kiting monsters to the stairs. I guess its all subjective in the end, but worshipping a god that drags me into a narrow degenerative playstyle is not fun imo.

[MainiacJoe]

Can Qazlal reduce the noise of the storm clouds with piety and/or Invo gain? Some flavor like gaining mastery over the elements. It would then become a god that has a difficult beginning that matures into something powerful. If you can survive the noisy beginning, then you are well rewarded. If the raw power of the higher abilities is too high without the noise to balance it, that can be balanced.

[phloomp]

Do the clouds themselved produce noise? like the "spell noise" of conjure flame?

I could see turning off intrinsic noise while turning up the noise from thunder and (if it exists) other clouds, making it a bit more like shoutitis (though not as precisely located on the player). While you wouldn't meet many sleeping enemies, stealth wouldn't be totally pointless.

[KoboldLord]

We already have Makhleb who does random elemental blasts and random summons. And Nemelex too, for that matter. Do we really need Qazlal to be a third deity who does basically the same thing? Regardless of the design process that went into Qazlal's creation, the noise conduct is really the only part of the design that makes Qazlal distinct. Yes, Qazlal is an objectively terrible deity who is never optimal to use, but people seem to like Xom and Chei just fine.

[archaeo]

Yeah, as I was saying to dynast in gammafunk's stream, it's really okay if the game has weird niche gods. There's no expectation of balance (if there was, we would have to nerf Trog way before we thought about buffing Qaz), and there are plenty of reasons to include gods that offer narrow playstyles or challenging conducts.

The thing is that Qaz should be fun in and of itself, in the way that I think lots of players find Chei fun. Gods are a great way for the game to offer radically different incentives and challenges. Gamma pointed out (and I'm paraphrasing here) that Qaz doesn't really play to Crawl's strengths, and I think dynast hits upon that with the complaints about stairdancing. However, that just brings us to the inevitable conclusion that probably the real issue here is Crawl stairs, and that's a whole other (probably fruitless) discussion.

All that said, I feel like "noise god" is as inevitable as "slow god," and figuring out the best way to make that into an interesting challenge instead of a tedious one is worthwhile. Of course, I also think any noise god is going to run into the stair problem, so it's hard to imagine a version that's really better than Qaz.

[TeshiAlair]

Here's an idea- what if Qaz only generated noise and clouds with active enemies in line of sight. The storm ramps up over time, with a rate and maximum intensity based on piety.

So, you could play a stabber of Qaz, but if anything wakes up, you have to kill it quick because the storm will start raging.

I would also have there be a piety loss for not killing any enemies during a storm to prevent excessive luring or stairscumming. So, maybe as the storm ramps up both your piety loss rate and gain amount increase.

[mattlistener]

Won with a GrEE of Qazlal, had a lot of fun, didn't stairdance. Sometimes I had to run away which is fine.

I embraced noisiness and blew things up with Lee's Rapid Deconstruction as much as possible -- a playstyle I probably would have never explored were it not for Qaz.

Scroll of Immolation followed by Disaster Area at the last level of Vaults was possibly my most fun moment in my years of Crawl playing.

[Dungeoneer]

Please dont ruin one of the best gods.
I mean look at how good his invocations are? One of the best if not the best.
Great for melee,
good for spellcasting (clouds act like a shield), but primarly he is a melee god.
I respect you trying to rework him but he is great the way he is.

[Tiktacy]

Please dont ruin one of the best gods.
I mean look at how good his invocations are? One of the best if not the best.
Great for melee,
good for spellcasting (clouds act like a shield), but primarly he is a melee god.
I respect you trying to rework him but he is great the way he is.

Agreed, I think dynast brings some nice points to the table, but I think the bottom line is that qaz' conduct just isn't for everyone. Some people like it, some don't, thats okay, but his entire design is based around strong god abilities with an equally strong drawback. It reminds me of cheibriados but much less confining and challenging.

[Jeremiah]

What if instead of making constant noise, he amplified any noise you make normally, so it would still be possible to be stealthy, but any spells you cast would be extra noisy, melee would be much more likely to wake up monsters, and of course invocations would still be very loud.

[duvessa]

Please dont ruin one of the best gods.
I mean look at how good his invocations are? One of the best if not the best.
Great for melee,
good for spellcasting (clouds act like a shield), but primarly he is a melee god.
I respect you trying to rework him but he is great the way he is.

Agreed, I think dynast brings some nice points to the table, but I think the bottom line is that qaz' conduct just isn't for everyone. Some people like it, some don't, thats okay, but his entire design is based around strong god abilities with an equally strong drawback. It reminds me of cheibriados but much less confining and challenging.

Okay, but just a thought, maybe qazlal could have a drawback that doesn't make him worse than atheist for every character in the game.

[Tiktacy]

Please dont ruin one of the best gods.
I mean look at how good his invocations are? One of the best if not the best.
Great for melee,
good for spellcasting (clouds act like a shield), but primarly he is a melee god.
I respect you trying to rework him but he is great the way he is.

Agreed, I think dynast brings some nice points to the table, but I think the bottom line is that qaz' conduct just isn't for everyone. Some people like it, some don't, thats okay, but his entire design is based around strong god abilities with an equally strong drawback. It reminds me of cheibriados but much less confining and challenging.

Okay, but just a thought, maybe qazlal could have a drawback that doesn't make him worse than atheist for every character in the game.

Sorry duvessa but this time I'm going to have to disagree with you. Crawl has some issues with god balancing, I will give you that. However, qazlal is not part of that issue, he is a god like Xom or Chei that is meant for a unique challenge for players looking for more variety in their game. Qazlals drawbacks add extra replay value and can often lead to a lot of fun and unusual situations.

What you are describing goes backwards in terms of crawls design goals. I understand the gesture, it certainly is a nice thought to have more options in terms of god choices, but I think that can be improved more effectively through balancing the various gods in crawl to have similar power levels, making them more viable and therefore leading to a larger assortment of optimal choices.

[dynast]

Sorry duvessa but this time I'm going to have to disagree with you. Crawl has some issues with god balancing, I will give you that. However, qazlal is not part of that issue, he is a god like Xom or Chei that is meant for a unique challenge for players looking for more variety in their game. Qazlals drawbacks add extra replay value and can often lead to a lot of fun and unusual situations.

What you are describing goes backwards in terms of crawls design goals. I understand the gesture, it certainly is a nice thought to have more options in terms of god choices, but I think that can be improved more effectively through balancing the various gods in crawl to have similar power levels, making them more viable and therefore leading to a larger assortment of optimal choices.

I want to know how "leaving noise to do its work instead of making all enemies come after you, ruining exploration factor, such as encountering monsters, loot and covering space in the dungeon" goes backwards in terms of crawl design goals. I also want to know how removing qaz noise prevents players from playing him normally.
The way i see qaz is as this god full of interesting abilities that i cannot worship.
And please dont compare it with Xom or Chei. Xom is a pure amusement god and Chei is like playing a naga, there are ways to play it, as challenging as it is, Chei doesnt drag the player into a narrow, degenerative playstyle, he gets rid of it.

[archaeo]

For me, dynast, Qaz's abilities without the noise really aren't interesting. It's just four spells you get for worshipping a god that you have to spend piety to cast.

I'm also pretty sure that Xom and Chei could both be said to encourage "degenerate" behaviors as designed; Xom's gifts encourage some real dumb scumming tactics, for example, and despite being slow, Chei characters get more from luring than most. Even if Qaz causes players to fall back on some tactics many don't find enjoyable, at least it changes how you play the game in some fashion; we should make the changed game more fun (Jeremiah's idea sounds interesting, for example), but the noise aspect is the part that keeps Qaz from being a glorified spellbook imo.

[dpeg]

What if instead of making constant noise, he amplified any noise you make normally, so it would still be possible to be stealthy, but any spells you cast would be extra noisy, melee would be much more likely to wake up monsters, and of course invocations would still be very loud.

Only became aware of this due to archaeo's endorsement (many thanks!), and yeah, this looks like an interesting idea. I think it could open up Qazlal's range a bit while keeping the conduct.

[Sar]

Maybe also make clouds appear around/under your enemies on hits and casts, too? Would keep the theme and maybe even make allies not-impossible.

[dynast]

Chei characters get more from luring than most.

How? by not being able to run? isnt having normal speed or being as fast as a spriggan or just being able to cast swiftness or haste way easier to lure enemies? Please elaborate.

[Sar]

if you play a normal speed char and you fight dudes and it goes wrong you walk away, if you play a Chei dude you can't, hence luring enemies is much more appealing, and you still can do it for some time before they catch up with you

(I don't play with Chei but that's how it is for Nagas and I imagine Cheities are similar, except they're even slower at max piety)

[archaeo]

I miss the thanks button too, because Sar's nailed it.

That said, I don't mind Chei and I also don't mind Qaz; I def. think Qaz could be better, but a noiseless version would need to be designed from the ground-up imo and would end up being a totally different god anyway.

[Shard1697]

His flavor is not supposed to be noise, but elements.

As far as I can be tell, his flavor is not just 'elements'(something that exists all over the place in crawl already), it's "god of the storm"(Stormbringer is literally in his name) and both noise and elements are integral in not only that flavor but also the balance of the god.

I think drawing lots of enemies to you(who can then get fucked up by the clouds) is what makes Qazlal fun. It's a cool tradeoff that changes how you play. Maybe it could be reduced, but getting rid of it would make having the god entirely pointless as far as I'm concerned.

Luring is definitely really important as Chei, because you hate getting stuck in bad engagements since you can't reposition or break away nearly as easily. And it's not much harder to do when you encounter enemies anywhere but immediately next to you around a corner, dragging them back a ways to explored territory is still simple and virtually always worth it. Chei encourages splitting enemies/fighting where more enemies won't show up moreso than usual because the negatives of bad engagements are worse and the positives of fighting 1v1 are increased(since player power in a straight fight is higher).

I miss the thanks button too, because Sar's nailed it.

I do as well, honestly.

[dynast]

And that makes them good at luring how again? Qaz doesnt make you good at stairdancing, but he doesnt make you worse at it, Chei makes you worse at luring, wether you accept it or not. I really hope you can figure why spriggans are degenerative instead of nagas.

[Shard1697]

And that makes them good at luring how again? Qaz doesnt make you good at stairdancing, but he doesnt make you worse at it, Chei makes you worse at luring, wether you accept it or not. I really hope you can figure why spriggans are degenerative instead of nagas.

The post you were originally responding to says

Chei characters get more from luring than most.

"Get more from", not "are better at".
They are somewhat worse at it but the rewards for it are greater and it is very much worth doing. I know I lure whenever possible with Chei, and I've seen other people do it as well. It doesn't matter that you have low movespeed when you see a monster enter the edge of LoS, you still have plenty of turns to drag them back with you to explored territory because they're starting far away from you and it's a good idea to do this because it's safer to fight farther away from unexplored territory, full stop. So Chei doesn't really get rid of "degenerate" playstyles except for in some very specific circumstances, he either encourages or changes them.

[dynast]

4 steps. four fucking step is what you get when luring a monster from edge of LoS, after that you start taking free hits. You guys are stretching so far to compare two things that are completely different because luring is situational due to stealth and NOISE while qaz gets rid of them both so its not situational that you are stairdancing unless you are steamrolling through the game.
edit: actually its 6 or 7, but still.

[archaeo]

It's kind of hard to split this discussion, so if we want to talk about Chei, let's take it to another thread, thanks guys.

[Dingbat]

We already have Makhleb who does random elemental blasts and random summons. And Nemelex too, for that matter. Do we really need Qazlal to be a third deity who does basically the same thing?

>random blasts and summons
You forgot TSO... and Yred and Trog, to an extent.

Qazlal has a interesting flavor that is ruined by how poorly executed his passive is. His flavor is not supposed to be noise, but elements.

Yeah because hurricanes are very quiet, just ask someone from Florida!

What about...the noise and number of generated clouds varies depending on the number of monster you engage with? Just my two cents.

[SleepySteel]

I've always thought the noise thing of Qazlal was the coolest part- that he's a violent angry nature god who turns you into a walking hurricane that sticks out like a sore thumb and can invoke nuclear bombs on enemy crowds.

[agentgt]

I was hoping Qazlal would be more of a magic god.

I'm going to loose the battle on this one but I still think Crawl needs one more magic enhancer gods but I can't figure out a mechanic that would be interesting.

Maybe spell power enhancing elemental spells? Equivalent to a stave or something or ring at full piety.

The god enhances protection of resistances but fails to enhance damage of elemental spells (again IMO favoring melee dudes).

People think Qaz is great but the god is absolutely awful in extended. Difficult and annoying to play.
I can't decide if that is a fault of extended, noise design Qaz design, or me just sucking at crawl.

Yes I know some one is going to say not every god needs to be good at extended but I don't think a god should severely hurt you with not a very interesting or at least confusing mechanic (Sound).

[HardboiledGargoyle]

chei/veh/ash/sif/zin/kiku enhance magic directly, makhleb (with sublimation) and TSO and ru can be used for MP, Elyvilon could give MP for some healings TBH, many other gods at least don't directly disincentivize magic, and qaz makes some magic safer to use and thus more versatile.

People generally think Qaz is awful, especially (not only) in extended, due to noise design Qaz design.

[agentgt]

chei/veh/ash/sif/zin/kiku enhance magic directly ...

I have heard this before and I guess I have different idea of what "direct" is.

Directly would be giving a spell power increase.

Sure there are gods that assist but there isn't really an Oka or Trog of magic. Yeah there is Mak of magic but that is about it.

You also missed one of the best magic dude gods: Dith (which other than Ash I find superior to the above).
Why because Dith is almost like a spell enhancer because of shadow and you can press "5" with far less fear (especially compared to Qaz).

Which brings me to my point... Qaz is pretty rough on magic dudes. Magic dudes need time to regen mp... preferable alone.