Swamp Slogger
Posts: 163
Joined: Wednesday, 29th December 2010, 22:32
Do Berserkers need to be nerfed?
Here's a big data dump of a bunch of stats I collected about classes and gods in 0.8 and 0.7 for reference. (I wish I could use spoiler tags or something to make this more organized, but this is the best I can do without taking up loads of space.)
- Code:
#Played 0.8 by class
6334x Berserker,
6131x Wizard,
5285x Fighter,
4340x Wanderer,
3271x Crusader,
2771x Enchanter,
2664x Necromancer,
2531x Transmuter,
2297x Air Elementalist,
2179x Monk,
1985x Ice Elementalist,
1764x Conjurer,
1627x Abyssal Knight,
1457x Fire Elementalist,
1450x Summoner,
1441x Earth Elementalist,
1385x Hunter, 1385x Assassin,
1382x Stalker, 1332x Venom Mage,
1220xGladiator,
1205x Priest,
1090x Death Knight,
1003x Artificer,
930x Chaos Knight,
886x Warper,
522x Healer
#Won in 0.8 by class
57x Berserker,
21x Fighter,
18x Ice Elementalist,
17x Earth Elementalist,
17x Necromancer,
16x Wizard,
16x Crusader,
16x Transmuter,
14x Enchanter,
14x Hunter,
13x Fire Elementalist,
12x Air Elementalist,
12x Gladiator,
11x Conjurer,
10x Monk,
10x Summoner,
9x Healer,
8x Wanderer,
8x Assassin,
7x Priest,
6x Artificer,
6x Venom Mage,
5x Stalker,
5x Abyssal Knight,
4xDeath Knight,
4x Chaos Knight,
3x Warper
#Win Ratio in 0.8 by class
9/522x Healer [1.72%],
17/1441x Earth Elementalist [1.18%],
14/1385x Hunter [1.01%],
12/1220x Gladiator [0.98%],
18/1985x Ice Elementalist [0.91%],
57/6336x Berserker [0.90%],
13/1457x Fire Elementalist [0.89%],
10/1450x Summoner [0.69%],
17/2665x Necromancer [0.64%],
16/2531x Transmuter [0.63%],
11/1764x Conjurer [0.62%],
6/1003x Artificer [0.60%],
7/1205x Priest [0.58%],
8/1385x Assassin [0.58%],
12/2297x Air Elementalist [0.52%],
14/2771x Enchanter [0.51%],
16/3272x Crusader [0.49%],
10/2179x Monk [0.46%],
6/1332x Venom Mage [0.45%],
4/930x Chaos Knight [0.43%],
21/5285x Fighter [0.40%],
4/1090x Death Knight [0.37%],
5/1382x Stalker [0.36%],
3/886x Warper [0.34%],
5/1627x Abyssal Knight [0.31%],
16/6131x Wizard [0.26%],
8/4340x Wanderer [0.18%]
-----
#Games played in 0.7 by class
15489x Wanderer,
15302x Wizard,
13582x Berserker,
12413x Fighter,
12268x Enchanter,
11719x Crusader,
10430x Chaos Knight,
10253x Necromancer,
8907x Transmuter,
7053x Fire Elementalist,
4938x Priest,
4789x Ice Elementalist,
4711x Monk,
4409x Paladin,
4287x Assassin,
4080x Artificer,
4033x Conjurer,
3649x Air Elementalist,
3478x Hunter,
3291x Reaver,
3287x Stalker,
3052x Summoner,
2938x Venom Mage,
2729x Gladiator,
2314x Earth Elementalist,
2255x Arcane Marksman,
2032x Warper,
1271x Healer
#Won in 0.7 by class (674)
94x Enchanter,
63x Crusader,
57x Necromancer,
50x Fire Elementalist,
46x Berserker,
40x Wizard,
38x Transmuter,
33x Assassin,
32x Ice Elementalist,
22x Stalker,
18x Venom Mage,
18x Fighter,
17x Chaos Knight,
17x Conjurer,
14x Reaver,
14x Hunter,
13x Monk,
12x Air Elementalist,
11x Warper,
10x Gladiator,
9x Priest,
8x Paladin,
7x Wanderer,
7x Arcane Marksman, 7x
6x Healer,
6x Artificer,
5x Earth Elementalist
#Win ratio in 0.7 by class
33/4287x Assassin [0.77%],
94/12268x Enchanter [0.77%],
50/7053x Fire Elementalist [0.71%],
22/3287x Stalker [0.67%],
32/4789x Ice Elementalist [0.67%],
18/2938x Venom Mage [0.61%],
57/10253x Necromancer [0.56%],
11/2032x Warper [0.54%],
63/11719x Crusader [0.54%],
6/1271x Healer [0.47%],
38/8907x Transmuter [0.43%],
14/3291x Reaver [0.43%],
17/4033x Conjurer [0.42%],
14/3478x Hunter [0.40%],
10/2729x Gladiator [0.37%],
46/13582x Berserker [0.34%],
12/3649x Air Elementalist [0.33%],
7/2255x Arcane Marksman [0.31%],
13/4711x Monk [0.28%],
40/15302x Wizard [0.26%],
7/3052x Summoner [0.23%],
5/2314x Earth Elementalist [0.22%],
9/4938x Priest [0.18%],
8/4409x Paladin [0.18%],
17/10430x Chaos Knight [0.16%],
6/4080x Artificer [0.15%],
18/12413x Fighter [0.15%],
7/15489x Wanderer [0.05%]
-------------------------------------------
#Games played by god in 0.8
6685x Trog,
1713x Okawaru,
1640x Lugonu,
1383x Vehumet,
1356x Sif Muna,
1191x Yredelemnul,
1053x Xom,
843x Makhleb,
776x Kikubaaqudgha,
718x Beogh,
700x Ashenzari,
621x Nemelex Xobeh,
607x Elyvilon,
537x Zin,
425x Cheibriados,
247x The Shining One, 1
56x Fedhas,
25x Jiyva
#Win ratio by god in 0.8
3/25x Jiyva [12.00%],
18/247x The Shining One [7.29%],
39/843x Makhleb [4.63%],
25/776x Kikubaaqudgha [3.22%],
22/700x Ashenzari [3.14%],
14/621x Nemelex Xobeh [2.25%],
31/1383x Vehumet [2.24%],
37/1713x Okawaru [2.16%],
27/1356x Sif Muna [1.99%],
7/425x Cheibriados [1.65%],
8/537x Zin [1.49%],
2/156x Fedhas [1.28%],
77/6685x Trog [1.15%],
6/607x Elyvilon [0.99%],
7/1640x Lugonu [0.43%],
3/1053x Xom [0.28%],
2/1191x Yredelemnul [0.17%],
1/718x Beogh [0.14%],
10/39207x [0.03%]
---------
#Games played by gods in 0.7
14275x Trog,
7502x Makhleb,
6049x Okawaru,
4685x The Shining One,
3692x Sif Muna,
3443x Vehumet,
2961x Xom,
2863x Beogh,
2271x Kikubaaqudgha,
2100x Lugonu,
1735x Yredelemnul,
1684x Nemelex Xobeh,
1614x Elyvilon,
1308x Cheibriados,
789x Zin,
648x Fedhas,
175x Jiyva
#Win ratio of gods in 0.7
38/175x Jiyva [21.71%],
78/2271x Kikubaaqudgha [3.43%],
41/1684x Nemelex Xobeh [2.43%],
68/3443x Vehumet [1.98%],
103/6049x Okawaru [1.70%],
61/3692x Sif Muna [1.65%],
10/648x Fedhas [1.54%],
12/789x Zin [1.52%],
58/4685x The Shining One [1.24%],
74/7502x Makhleb [0.99%],
11/1308x Cheibriados [0.84%],
12/2100x Lugonu [0.57%],
8/1614x Elyvilon [0.50%],
8/1735x Yredelemnul [0.46%],
56/14275x Trog [0.39%],
4/2863x Beogh [0.14%],
4/2961x Xom [0.14%],
28/121165x [0.02%]
Berserkers have a large flat number of wins, but I don’t see why that should matter. Win ratio should be a better indicator of whether or not a class is overpowered, shouldn't it? The Berserker’s win ratio is good, but it’s no better than the Ice or Fire Elementalist (and it’s notably lower than the Gladiator’s). And, to my knowledge, equalizing win rates across all classes or races isn’t a design goal of Dungeon Crawl. Some are known to be easier or harder to play than others and that’s fine. So there doesn’t seem to be a problem there.
Also note that Trog’s win rate compared to other gods isn’t very good at all…only 1.15% compared to Makhleb at 4.63%, Kikubaaqudgha and Ashenzari at above 3%, and Nemelex, Vehumet, Okawaru, and Sif Muna all above 2%. It’s hard to draw hard conclusions from this because there’s no way to know how many of those Makhlebs are late converts for the postgame (I’m positive TSO’s 7.29% is almost totally a result of that sort of thing). Plus, Trog takes a hit from all the young Berserkers who are tragically struck down on dungeon level 4 or whatever whereas Sif Muna is unmarred by all the Air Elementalists who would have worshipped her if they hadn’t died before seeing the temple. Even so, Berserkers are one of the easiest classes to hit the temple with, and even if you double Trog’s rate it’d still be around the middle of the pack. This suggests to me that Trog isn’t amazingly good at helping his followers win compared to other popular gods. So that doesn’t indicate a problem either.
The real reason the Berserker has so many wins is because the next three classes below it (Fighter, Wizard, Wanderer) are well below-average in win rate. Then Crusaders and Enchanters, who are still only average or slightly below. Then Necromancers and Transmuters, who are just starting to be a bit above-average. It’s not until the Ice Elementalist at a whopping #11 that you finally hit one of the classes who are close to Berserkers in win ratio. If it just so happened that the top five most played classes went Berserker, Ice Elementalist, Fire Elementalist, Necromancer, Transmuter, then the list of flat number of wins by class would be nice and smooth and nobody would complain anymore, even though the relative power of the classes measured by win ratio would be identical to what it is now. So why nerf the Berserker? It seems like you’d be arbitrarily nerfing the class just because it’s popular.
That still leaves the question of why the Berserker is so high on the win list now when it wasn’t before. Well, in 0.7, the Enchanter was on top by a good margin, followed by the Crusader who was still noticeably above the Berserker’s general region. The enchantment split hurt the Enchanter’s late-game seriously and the Crusader’s early game moderately, plus Haste was taken out of the Book of War Chants, so obviously those two classes were going to drop. But that should still have left Berserkers roughly equal to a few other classes, so what else changed?
This involves some supposition on my part, but I think the removal of Makhleb as a starting god had a huge effect here. Chaos Knights of Makhleb were a very popular in 0.7. Over 5,000 games were played with them (more than CK of Lugonu and Xom combined). Common wisdom was that if you wanted an easy start but didn’t want to be a spellcaster, you played as a Berserker or a CK of Makhleb, so the population of people who leaned towards divine warriors were mostly split between them. Now CKs of Makhleb are gone, and all those players needed to go somewhere. It’s obvious that they weren’t willing to play Fighters and take Makhleb in the temple (Makhleb was 52% as popular as Trog in 0.7; now he’s only 12% as popular and way below Okawaru), so they must have migrated to other classes. I surmise that most of them started playing Berserkers. Makhleb and Trog are similar to one another (and different from other starting gods) in that they both directly enhance your offensive power using abilities that can be applied very often (plus they both have emergency summons). Priests, Healers, Death Knights, and Abyssal Knights have always been, and still are, considered much weaker starts (in addition to having very different playstyles). So now Berserkers have barely any serious competition. They’re the only non-caster background who doesn’t have a rough early game; none of the other remaining holy warriors are even remotely on par with any elementalist in terms of starting difficulty and mundane warriors are even weaker than that. So tons of people play Berserkers and, since they aren’t one of the harder classes, a fair number of them win. In fact, since Berserkers' win rate was roughly double the CK of Makhleb's in 0.7, most of those ex Chaos Knights are probably suddenly finding themselves doing better than they used to, and are thus more likely to be winning.
I don’t think there’s any real evidence that Berserkers are overpowered, or any stronger than they’ve ever been in the past. They just have a higher percentage of total wins than before because the other classes known for being both often-played and often-won (Enchanters and Crusaders) took (mostly indirect) nerfs, and due to the removal of CKs of Makhleb and the overall weakness of most warior-type characters, they’re rapidly claiming a monopoly on inexperienced but ascension-minded players who don’t like spellcasters. If Makhleb was brought back as a starting god and the other holy warriors and mundane warriors in general had starting advantages that didn’t look so pitiful compared to the amazing stuff even the middling spellcaster backgrounds get, I think the problem would resolve itself without even needing to touch Trog.
Oh, and fun fact: back in 0.5 (i.e. the previous release in which heavy armor was considered viable), the most won classes were Fighter and Berserker tied at 94, then Chaos Knight and Paladin straddling 50 (which of course no longer exist), and then Necromancers at 37, just a bit above a third of the Berserkers (and I’m sure a lot of them were Deep Dwarves in armor, so maybe Fire Elemetalists at 33 would be a better starting point for that comparison). Berserkers doing well isn’t really new! It’s just that the heavy armor nerf put additional focus on spellcasting hybrids, ushering in the heyday of Enchanters and Crusaders, and now that the Enchantment school is broken up and heavy armor is a bit better they’re on their way out and the old order is starting to reassert itself a little bit…except Fighters still can’t pull it off the way they used to and the Berserker class has cannibalized most of the players of the now-defunct (and once quite popular) Chaos Knight and Paladin classes. The big ugly gap between Berserkers and the next closest winner is the result of a lack of attractive alternatives where they once existed, not the result of Berserkers themselves being overpowered. That’s the conclusion I’ve drawn from the statistics, anyway.