worst sacrifice


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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 10:33

worst sacrifice

Sacrifice Early Game is always worst sacrifice, but sadly common except few cases.

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 11:07

Re: worst sacrifice

not possible to worship the Ru without sacrificing the early game.

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radinms

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 11:19

Re: worst sacrifice

List of early game element
Random inevitable death
Boring run away or boring death
Forced kite or boring death
Spam poison needle or death
Spam berserk(only Be)
Newbie trap
So all of these are boring and non-interesting, need early game is remove.
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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 11:32

Re: worst sacrifice

Early game is still the best part!
DCSS: 80: ...MfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTm
DgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}
SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAK{BaFi
Bloat: 6: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}

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Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 11:35

Re: worst sacrifice

How interesting it encountered sleeping unique without consumables and can not kill?

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 11:43

Re: worst sacrifice

Very, because now I have to explore around it more carefully.
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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 11:45

Re: worst sacrifice

I greatly enjoy coming back later when I'm stronger to kill the sleeping unique.
DCSS: 80: ...MfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTm
DgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}
SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAK{BaFi
Bloat: 6: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 11:48

Re: worst sacrifice

vault warden and vault sentinel is much better than the stupid something in the early game.

I do not have a unique an interesting choise of the early games. It is impossible.

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 11:54

Re: worst sacrifice

onget wrote:I do not have a unique an interesting choise of the early games.

that's sad, I do

also it's "choice"

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 12:05

Re: worst sacrifice

the early game is use obvious absolutely correct tactic or stupid death.
It is force always same game play ,
All of the characters can not be different in any means.
How do different is the character of the same combo in the early game?
Even you can different the character of the same combo in the late game!

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 12:12

Re: worst sacrifice

onget wrote:How do different is the character of the same combo in the early game?

one finds a ring of protection, another identifies a stack of fear scrolls, yet another finds a dagger of elec or a suitable altar on D:2, all of these contribute to survivability in different and exciting ways

also Crawl has like 300 or 400 different character combinations

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 12:24

Re: worst sacrifice

How do different HOFi with a ring of protection and non-ring HOFi?

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 12:48

Re: worst sacrifice

The first one would be significantly tabbier. However, Hill Orcs are a bit too strong for my tastes. As such, I would probably play a weaker combination. It's like difficulty levels.

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Sandman25

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 12:55

Re: worst sacrifice

I can not understand the different characters in the equipment and consumables. As long as you do not have a axe of woe, the character of the same combo and the same skills and the same god is always the same.

Random something that you have found for the first time, does not change your character suddenly randomly something.(Except for corpse and additional player ghost)

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 12:59

Re: worst sacrifice

onget wrote:As long as you do not have a axe of woe, the character of the same combo and the same skills and the same god is always the same.

Then... don't take the same god? Train different skills (apart from the obvious ones)?
onget wrote:Random something that you have found for the first time, does not change your character suddenly randomly something.

Except that's wrong? A book with good spells found early enough on a book background might influence my skill and god decision. A good enough heavy armour can change the entire direction of my character. I've taken early Jiyva on every character I've found it on, and won most of them, and they played massively different. Just because you play your characters rigidly and always take the same god on every character of a given type doesn't mean it's the way everybody plays (it's not even a good way to play, too).

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:04

Re: worst sacrifice

It does not change the fact that you must die or walk from sigmund.

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radinms

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:06

Re: worst sacrifice

combo and skill and god if you want to change any of it, you can very different. There is no it in equipment and consumables.
most cases additional spellbook, it does not change anything the early game. That you have the necronomicon is really meaningless in the early game.

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:13

Re: worst sacrifice

Or you can, like, use one of your character's powers. Or maybe you've gotten really lucky with loot and can just kill him because he blocks something he wants of just because you can. Maybe you can curare-slow him and pelt him with poison needles from the edge of vision, or whatever. It's fun because there's a risk involved and also because your list of escape consumables isn't as enormous as average mid/endgame character's one.

Anyway, I'm glad you at least agreed with me that the characters of the same combo can play completely differently!

onget wrote:There is no it in equipment and consumables.

Consumables change the way you deal with danger, and different consumables help you deal with them in a different way. This is less obvious when you have stacks of all of them (standard situation in mid/endgame), but much more obvious in earlygame. Blink is one of the strongest ones, but maybe you want to conserve it, fear works greatly on some enemies but doesn't work on others, invis is my favorite but it has its limitations, healing are the banal safe ones, maybe you quaff haste dependign on encounter or even quaff might and go for the kill.

Equipment - it's a rather exceptional example, but it's a real one from one of my games. Started as HuAK with pitiful Str. Found the +10 gold dragon armour of Agnosticism (worn) {rElec rPois rF+ rC+ Dam+6} on D:4. Spent most of Lair with negative EV (but nothing could hurt me anyway). Really fun game.

Edit: also I've used Maxwell's Coffin in several games and won those. It obviously very much influenced my characters' development.

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:16

Re: worst sacrifice

Since I can avoid the stupid consumables waste to sigmund, always walk. (Or so I'm very boring, spam tab)
Consumables difference really does not do anything.

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:19

Re: worst sacrifice

What if Sigmund guards something you want, like an altar? What if he cornered you and you can't literally just walk? What if it's not a Sigmund, but Grinder? You just keep using one boring and made-up example and then keep complaining that it's boring.

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:22

Re: worst sacrifice

sigmund lured up the stairs, I use another staircase. Or additional early game. You then assume the very rare situation!
sigmund and grinder are the same. die or walk.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:32

Re: worst sacrifice

I practically always kill Sigmund. Grinder I usually leave alone, unless I have good enough MR (which is usually not the case).
DCSS: 80: ...MfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTm
DgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}
SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAK{BaFi
Bloat: 6: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:40

Re: worst sacrifice

I don't know why I even tried arguing with you but I regret it now

I mean you whole premise is that avoiding a certain number of enemies being optimal is a bad thing somehow, and then you trivialize whatever actions have to be implemented to avoid said enemies as "boring"

also I guess every character looks the same until endgame where they all suddenly aren't the same lol

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:41

Re: worst sacrifice

onget,
I wonder how you are always able to walk away from Sigmund. Have you never found him closer than at edge of LoS? Has he never confused you as his first action?

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:43

Re: worst sacrifice

Sar wrote:I don't know why I even tried arguing with you but I regret it now

I mean you whole premise is that avoiding a certain number of enemies being optimal is a bad thing somehow, and then you trivialize whatever actions have to be implemented to avoid said enemies as "boring"

also I guess every character looks the same until endgame where they all suddenly aren't the same lol


This is easy. If you kill something without consumables, it is boring. If you kill something with consumables, it is a waste of resources. If you avoid something, it is boring. There is no fun in crawl, just boredom and stupid play.

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:46

Re: worst sacrifice

It is a rare, perhaps I lack the curing, since curemut did not save me, I inevitable random death.(Or so I boring,I spam tab and stupid death.)

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:49

Re: worst sacrifice

@Sandman25: You missed "dying" (boring). Also these do not apply to mid/endgame, those are fun and exciting (or rather, would be if not for stupid dev perfectionism).

onget wrote:I inevitable random death

or you can quaff invis and try to walk confusion off, or quaff treeform (not recommended unless Sigmund is in melee), or you quaff HW and wait for it to end

there's nothing inevitable here, I mean I don't even really remember last time I died to Sigmund

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:53

Re: worst sacrifice

I killed sigmund to only remember is stupid spam tab.

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:54

Re: worst sacrifice

Sar wrote:or you can quaff invis and try to walk confusion off, or quaff treeform (not recommended unless Sigmund is in melee), or you quaff HW and wait for it to end


Also agility, might, berserk, fear, blink, teleport, haste. My favorite is ring of invis, I love going invisible before Sigmund.

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 13:55

Re: worst sacrifice

onget wrote:I killed sigmund to only remember is stupid spam tab.


If you consider tab stupid, play book backgrounds. Something like DEFE or SpEn and no more tab.

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 14:01

Re: worst sacrifice

onget wrote:I killed sigmund to only remember is stupid spam tab.

oh right, so now you did kill sigmund, but I thought the choice was either boring walk or boring die, now we add boring kill to it

yeah, in Crawl you deal with enemies by either killing them, avoiding them or dying to them

how trite, where are my dialogue options?

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 14:02

Re: worst sacrifice

The stupid spam tab also contains the stupid spam flame tongue.

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 14:10

Re: worst sacrifice

so you just don't like Crawl? I mean, that's okay, that I at least can understand, Crawl is a pretty shit game all things considered

because "stupid tab/flame tongue spam" is replaced in the midgame by "stupid tab/bolt of fire spam" to be later replaced by "stupid tab/fire storm spam", with Mara and Mennas taking the roles of Sigmund and Grinder

the only thing that really changes is that your character accumulates tons of escape consumables like ?blinking and !heal wounds, making avoiding stupid always avoid uniques even stupider

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 14:10

Re: worst sacrifice

onget wrote:The stupid spam tab also contains the stupid spam flame tongue.


I see. So you spam stupid flame tongue and then spam stupid tab. Stupid inevitable death indeed. Or do you retreat when at 0 MP? Then stupid retreat indeed. Or do you retreat before 0 MP? Then stupid smart retreat indeed. Or do you use a consumable to survive? Then "stupid" "waste" of resource to survive indeed.
I have a question though - isn't it interesting to choose between stupid things? Or do you choose the same option with all your characters?

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 14:16

Re: worst sacrifice

Early game is optimal play or stupid death. Walking from sigmund is always optimal.

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 14:21

Re: worst sacrifice

onget wrote:Early game is optimal play or stupid death. Walking from sigmund is always optimal.


Good, now we have something not stupid. Is it always obvious which retreat path is optimal? What happens if your retreat path has other monsters, doesn't it start to become interesting? I mean you can choose to use a consumable to clear path for retreat from Sigmund (it can be unusual consumable like potion of magic or wand of random effects or wand of enslavement or javelin etc.). For me interesting means "I don't have an obvious solution".

Sar

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 14:22

Re: worst sacrifice

onget wrote:Early game is optimal play or stupid death.

I see. So, you like playing extremely suboptimally and getting away with it. Have you tried wizmode? It might help you to smooth the earlygame experience to the point where it resembles mid/endgame more closely.
Last edited by Sar on Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 14:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 14:24

Re: worst sacrifice

Sar wrote:Have you tried wizmode? It might help you to smooth the earlygame experience to the point where it resembles mid/endgame more closely.


I read explore mode is better, the only difference with normal mode is you get a request to really die after death.

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Post Tuesday, 1st September 2015, 23:42

Re: worst sacrifice

Onget, if you don't like tab, then play a mage background. As a bonus, I find most conjuror-type backgrounds (Cj, FE, IE, even Wz, etc) are quite capable of killing Sigmund after D3. Mages play differently enough that the early game doesn't always feel the same.
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Post Wednesday, 2nd September 2015, 04:02

Re: worst sacrifice

mage background in early game... spam, tab Lv1 magic.

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Post Wednesday, 2nd September 2015, 04:19

Re: worst sacrifice

radinms wrote:mage background in early game... spam, tab Lv1 magic.


Luring, kiting, resting, miscasts, trying different weapons. Much more interesting than melee IMHO.

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Post Wednesday, 2nd September 2015, 04:37

Re: worst sacrifice

That all is not as interesting. It is boring. And, they also exist in the melee.

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