Slaying doesn't do anything

[Piginabag]

Slaying is a placebo effect. I have never had any amount of slaying, positive or negative, have a noticeable impact on melee damage. I can tell when I resist elements, I can tell that I'm dodging more often or blocking more damage with AC. Not once, however, have I seen slaying do anything. Even if slaying did anything, which it doesn't, it's impossible to even observe or measure its effectiveness due to the insane randomness of the melee system in DCSS.

It might be more honest to rename the stat to "Bravado", or perhaps more accurately "Self Confidence".

[tasonir]

Slaying is fairly powerful, although it won't solve all of your problems. I agree crawl tends to roll a lot of 0's, but even so the average does go up considerably with slaying. You won't notice +1 or +2 slaying too much, but even just +5 slaying can be visible. Really high slaying (10 or more) is quite obvious.

I tend to not use slaying if I manage to get a full UC + transmutations build going, because transmutations adds so much damage already, but that's more of an edge case than a rule.

[Sandman25]

When I had 15+ slaying on a character, it was hilariously easy. The difference can be easily seen, not for +1 slaying of course. You will not notice +1 AC/EV/SH/weapon_enchantment difference either.

[Piginabag]

34 slaying on this character: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Pigin ... 011943.txt

Couldn't tell the difference.

[Sandman25]

34 slaying on this character: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Pigin ... 011943.txt

Couldn't tell the difference.

Well, play crawl from my signature, it shows damage the player does to monsters.

[dowan]

Well, when the average player can't tell the difference between 1x and 2x damage, it's not surprising you don't notice effect of a bunch of slaying.

But +34? I think that must be noticeable, if you took a character with 0 slaying and a +0+0 demon trident with the same skills as the one in that dump, I think you'd notice a difference pretty quickly.

Of course, the question is, you couldn't tell the difference between what and what? It's not as if you suddenly got that +34 slaying all at once.

I know if I find a +9 randart weapon early on, it feels a hell of a lot different from a plain one.

[Siegurt]

By the same argument you could say you can't tell the difference between a dagger and a great mace, they both hit stuff, it dies, it's very random how much damage you do, so you can't really tell the difference, so they're the same right?

(FWIW a +0 dagger with 34 slaying is better than a +0 great mace with none)

[Sandman25]

I guess this thread is a joke/parody.

[duvessa]

Well, when the average player can't tell the difference between 1x and 2x damage, it's not surprising you don't notice effect of a bunch of slaying.

But +34? I think that must be noticeable, if you took a character with 0 slaying and a +0+0 demon trident with the same skills as the one in that dump, I think you'd notice a difference pretty quickly.

This character had 45 slaying and never noticed that it was literally doing nothing

[Piginabag]

Well, when the average player can't tell the difference between 1x and 2x damage, it's not surprising you don't notice effect of a bunch of slaying.

But +34? I think that must be noticeable, if you took a character with 0 slaying and a +0+0 demon trident with the same skills as the one in that dump, I think you'd notice a difference pretty quickly.

This character had 45 slaying and never noticed that it was literally doing nothing

You OD'd on sugar pills.

[dowan]

Well, I think we can all agree that crawl's interface makes it basically impossible to make an intelligent comparison of damage without using Fsim or code diving.

[Sandman25]

It depends. I definitely saw difference between +9 bardiche with high Str/Dex character (150% HP cursed skull died in 4 attacks) and +7 scimitar with low Str character (dealt 17 damage to cursed skill once in about 8 attacks, all other attacks resulted in "but deal no damage").

[Piginabag]

It depends. I definitely saw difference between +9 bardiche with high Str/Dex character (150% HP cursed skull died in 4 attacks) and +7 scimitar with low Str character (dealt 17 damage to cursed skill once in about 8 attacks, all other attacks resulted in "but deal no damage").

Weapon enchantment level definitely does something. Slaying on rings, amulets, and armor however, is all a ruse.

[Sandman25]

Do you see effect of potion of might?

[dowan]

Well, I've personally not played many characters with a ton of slaying from equipment, so I can't really comment on whether it's noticeable or not. If it works as advertised, it ought to be just as noticeable as weapon enchantment, or a potion of might. (Isn't might just a flat +10 though?)

Who knows, maybe it's bugged. As history has shown, damage bugs can go unnoticed for some time... And confirmation bias is powerful, so maybe we are all just fooling ourselves.

FR: New unrandarts called "Confirmation Bias" and "Clustering Illusion".

Confirmation bias is a triple sword that always does as much damage as you expect it to.

Clustering Illusion is an arbalest that always rolls the same to-hit and damage 2-5 times in a row.

Someone more creative than myself could improve on them before their implementation date of June 17th(Tentative, subject to dev confirmation).

[dowan]

edit: Somehow I double posted, but the second one was a quote of the first. OOPS. Mods feel free to remove

[Blobbo]

Well, I think we can all agree that crawl's interface makes it basically impossible to make an intelligent comparison of damage without using Fsim or code diving.

This. That one time on 0.16 when all damage was doubled and nobody noticed.

[cerealjynx]

I notice it most on aux attacks. I once had a Mi with Horns3 and slaying in the teens. I would just eat food when surrounded by popcorn.

[dowan]

That's a really good line for a crawl rap.

[Piginabag]

34 slaying on this character: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Pigin ... 011943.txt

Couldn't tell the difference.

Well, play crawl from my signature, it shows damage the player does to monsters.

This.. is glorious.

Do you see effect of potion of might?

Absolutely, yes. But that's because potions of might actually do something.

[bel]

I have no idea why this thread has so many serious replies.

[Rast]

Find a +6 ring of slaying early and throw rocks at monsters. You will notice the difference.

[dowan]

I have no idea why this thread has so many serious replies.

I prefer to take things at face value until they are shown not to be. Obviously this guy is using some hyperbole, but there's still an interesting discussion to be had. Hell, I don't care if the guy is totally trolling, we can still have a serious discussion anyway.

[mps]

Yes, this is a reflection of the fact that median damage dealt per turn is surprisingly often 0. The mathematics of 0 are unusual in some respects. For example, 0 x 2 = 0, which explains the impossibility of detecting the double damage bug via anything less than the most rigorous methods of science.

This is just another example of how excessive soupiness holds crawl back.

[Sandman25]

Well, http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Pigin ... 011943.txt character vs
Stone Giant:

  Code:

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     64.9 |    182 |      97% |  63.0 |    60  |  1.67 |    105.0

Killed with 5 attacks:

  Code:

You reach to attack!
You impale the stone giant!!(damage 25)
You freeze the stone giant!
The stone giant is moderately wounded.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - stone giant
Aim: a stone giant (moderately wounded)
You reach to attack!
You impale the stone giant!!(damage 23)
You freeze the stone giant!
The stone giant is heavily wounded.
The stone giant throws a large rock. The large rock completely misses you.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - stone giant
Aim: a stone giant (heavily wounded)
You reach to attack!
You puncture the stone giant!(damage 10)
You freeze the stone giant.
The stone giant is heavily wounded.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - stone giant
Aim: a stone giant (heavily wounded)
You reach to attack!
You spit the stone giant like a pig!!!(damage 39)
You freeze the stone giant!
The stone giant is almost dead.
The stone giant throws a large rock. The large rock completely misses you.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - stone giant
Aim: a stone giant (almost dead)
You reach to attack!
You impale the stone giant!!(damage 29)
You freeze the stone giant.
You kill the stone giant!

Now let's remove 34 slaying:

  Code:

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     26.1 |    102 |      95% |  24.9 |    60  |  1.67 |     41.6

  Code:

You reach to attack!
You puncture the stone giant!(damage 11)
You freeze the stone giant.
The stone giant is lightly wounded.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - stone giant
Aim: a stone giant (lightly wounded)
You reach to attack!
You puncture the stone giant!(damage 8)
You freeze the stone giant.
The stone giant is moderately wounded.
The stone giant throws a large rock. The large rock completely misses you.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - stone giant
Aim: a stone giant (moderately wounded)
You reach to attack!
You impale the stone giant!!(damage 24)
You freeze the stone giant.
The stone giant is heavily wounded.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - stone giant
Aim: a stone giant (heavily wounded)
You reach to attack!
You impale the stone giant!!(damage 30)
You freeze the stone giant!
The stone giant is severely wounded.
The stone giant throws a large rock. The large rock completely misses you.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - stone giant
Aim: a stone giant (severely wounded)
You reach to attack!
You impale the stone giant!!(damage 22)
You freeze the stone giant!
You kill the stone giant!

5 attacks again...

How about Yak?

  Code:

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     62.8 |    172 |      90% |  57.0 |    60  |  1.67 |     95.0

Less damage than to Stone Giant, higher EV is better than +8 AC here.

Without slaying:

  Code:

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     29.4 |    102 |      85% |  25.1 |    60  |  1.67 |     41.8

About the same as to Stone Giant.

[mps]

So it sounds like you just proved that slaying doesn't do anything. 5 attacks either way kills the monster.

[Lasty]

mps, you're dealing with two trials with a sample size of one. In this case p is pretty close to 1. This constitutes proof in the same way that rolling a four-sided die and one-hundred-sided die and have each one come up 1 constitutes proof that the two dice are identical.

[mps]

Listen, Lasty, I appreciate your attempt to perform a complex analysis on this data set, but the evidence couldn't be clearer. 5 hits kills the monster either way.

[Lasty]

Oh, you're joking. I thought about assuming that initially, but I thought it would be more insulting if I guessed wrong about it.

[dowan]

Now show how many thrown rocks it takes to kill the stone giant, with and without slaying. I bet we'll get different numbers that way!

[Sprucery]

My stabbers kill things with one hit without any slaying. Ergo slaying is useless.

[daggaz]

My stabbers wake everything up in the room first and then slay the shit out of them. I can definitely tell the difference. For that matter, there needs to be more slaying in the game, the rings are too rare and stabbing is hard.

[Sandman25]

Now show how many thrown rocks it takes to kill the stone giant, with and without slaying. I bet we'll get different numbers that way!

No, it is still possible to get the same numbers in this case. If you want to have higher chance to see different numbers, it's better to use dagger (0-4 vs 0-38) or stones.

[dowan]

That's what I meant, stones.

Or better yet, throw pizzas! With 34 slaying, they should still be able to kill stuff.

Man I would love to see the dump of a character who killed a pan lord with thrown pizza. +100 internets to whoever does it.

[Sandman25]

It is easy when you have Throwing 27 and needles of paralysis.

[wheals]

It is easy when you have Throwing 27 and needles of paralysis.

The slice of pizza hits Fhjwn in a vulnerable spot!!!!

[Siegurt]

Fwiw, throwing skill has no effect on your ability to throw pizza.

[Sandman25]

Sounds like a bug.

[Blobbo]

Man I would love to see the dump of a character who killed a pan lord with thrown pizza. +100 internets to whoever does it.

+1000 internets if the character is named Heisenberg.

[dowan]

Man I would love to see the dump of a character who killed a pan lord with thrown pizza. +100 internets to whoever does it.

+1000 internets if the character is named Heisenberg.

I don't understand the reference, whether it's a reference to breaking bad or uncertainty principle.

[savageorange]

I think a statistics reference would have made more sense than QM. I don't get the reference either.

[Blobbo]

Breaking bad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKAzfd8oTWs

It was a statistically extremely difficult shot (the pizza had to be thrown with the box, the box had to come off and the pizza had to land on the roof like 10 feet above the ground), and Bryan Cranston got it on the first take. He is the one who throws the pizza, if anyone can kill a Pan Lord with it, it must be him.

[PleasingFungus]

By the same argument you could say you can't tell the difference between a dagger and a great mace, they both hit stuff, it dies, it's very random how much damage you do, so you can't really tell the difference, so they're the same right?

(FWIW a +0 dagger with 34 slaying is better than a +0 great mace with none)

iirc someone tested out the dagger of accuracy right after the slaying merge (went from +27/+0 to +27) and found it 'surprisingly disappointing'

[Sar]

the pizza had to be thrown with the box, the box had to come off and the pizza had to land on the roof like 10 feet above the ground

Is there any plot significance to that?

[PleasingFungus]

Is there any plot significance to that?

It's essentially critical. Watch the show......

[Blobbo]

Is there any plot significance to that?

It's essentially critical. Watch the show......

Every single shot in Breaking Bad is tremendously significant. I'm not exaggerating, the damn thing is a work of art.

[dowan]

I just got a slaying +5 ring on a troll, and killed a kobold with a thrown chunk of meat. It was satisfying.

[Rast]

Is there any plot significance to that?

It's essentially critical. Watch the show......

Every single shot in Breaking Bad is tremendously significant. I'm not exaggerating, the damn thing is a work of art.

It's the best show I've ever seen, except maybe The Wire.

[tasonir]

By the same argument you could say you can't tell the difference between a dagger and a great mace, they both hit stuff, it dies, it's very random how much damage you do, so you can't really tell the difference, so they're the same right?

(FWIW a +0 dagger with 34 slaying is better than a +0 great mace with none)

iirc someone tested out the dagger of accuracy right after the slaying merge (went from +27/+0 to +27) and found it 'surprisingly disappointing'

I think the dagger would only beat the great mace if you had 0 maces/daggers/fighting. With 20 in all three skills, I'd still take the great mace.

The pizza tossing was just his frustration at being turned away by his wife, no? The pizza was his peace offering to come over for dinner, she rejected it. If there's some deeper meaning to it, I don't know. I do know that the creator of the show, Vince Gilligan, has asked people to please stop going to the house and throwing pizzas on the roof, because apparently people are stupid enough to actually do this. And the actual owner of the home is an old lady who can't get up on her roof easily.

[Piginabag]

I've been trying to kill enemies with thrown pizza because of this thread and it isn't working. How do I build to boost thrown food?