Lower the noise on Lightning Bolt

[lessens]

This strikes me as something that was originally included for flavor reasons - thunder is extremely loud, right? - but doesn't really fit the spell in gameplay terms. Extreme noise is something that would be more suited as a unique drawback to a powerful spell, rather than as an additional penalty on a spell that's already arguably weak. Instead, bring the noise level more in line with the other starter level 5 spells like Fireball and LRD.

[Berder]

I'd rather see the power on Lightning Bolt jacked up. As it is, it's weaker than the other bolts, and louder.

[jejorda2]

Maybe it would be fun if lightning only made noise in the final space that is hit (not at the player), and the noise is made two turns after the strike. So if you miss, you have a turn to fire again or to move away or to stab or something before the noise wakes up everything. And you can make noise "over there" to some extent, which might be useful if you are stealthy enough.

[Wahaha]

What's the noise of lightning bolt? And fireball is 25 right?
Lightning bolt is ok/above average when it's always used with double hit bounces.

I'd rather see the power on Lightning Bolt jacked up. As it is, it's weaker than the other bolts, and louder.

It's level 5, not 6.

[Siegurt]

Fireball and LRD are also extra loud (At effect point, which is already the point at which Lightning bolt is loud), although not quite as loud as lightning bolt,
(LB is 25, LRD is 20 or 25, and fireball is 15)

Also Lightning bolt isn't weak, it's roughly the same in power level to either of those (Although each has it's situational merits.) Given the same power level, you'll do more damage with a bounced lightning bolt than a fireball (If you hit twice), and LRD depends highly on what you're blowing up, but when it's rock, it's about the same as fireball.

[bel]

Lightning bolt is lvl 5, other bolt spells are lvl 6. It has good range, and can multizap. I don't think the noise element needs to be changed. There are sufficient counterweights.

[lessens]

I've tried to find the spell in the code before and failed, so I'm going to risk being completely wrong and trust the wiki: Lightning Bolt is 25, Fireball is 15. Shatter, the loudest spell in the game, is 30.

[bananaken]

I do like the noise lighting bolt generates since it becomes a nice alternative to a scroll of noise when luring people out in places like Elf:3. Maybe it should only make a loud noise under non-combat scenarios?

[Sandman25]

Never missing Fireball and LRD are good for group control so being loud is not that bad. If you want to compare LB to them, you should not take doublezap into account, it is extremely rare to doblezap several monsters with a single LB.

[Siegurt]

Explosion noise comes from:

  Code:

int explosion_noise(int rad)
{
    return 10 + rad * 5;
}


where 'rad' comes from:

  Code:

nt spell_effect_noise(spell_type spell)
{
    int expl_size;
    switch (spell)
    {
    case SPELL_MEPHITIC_CLOUD:
    case SPELL_FIREBALL:
        expl_size = 1;
        break;

    case SPELL_LRD:
        expl_size = 2; // Can reach 3 only with crystal walls, which are rare
        break;

    // worst case scenario for these
    case SPELL_FIRE_STORM:
    case SPELL_CONJURE_BALL_LIGHTNING:
        expl_size = 3;
        break;

    default:
        expl_size = 0;
    }

    if (expl_size)
        return explosion_noise(expl_size);

    return _seekspell(spell)->effect_noise;
}

And _seekspell returns 25 for lightning bolt noise, defined in spell-data.h

  Code:

{
    SPELL_LIGHTNING_BOLT, "Lightning Bolt",
    SPTYP_CONJURATION | SPTYP_AIR,
    SPFLAG_DIR_OR_TARGET | SPFLAG_NEEDS_TRACER,
    5,
    200,
    4, 11, // capped at LOS, yet this 11 matters since range increases linearly
    5, 25,
    nullptr,
}

[bel]

Never missing Fireball and LRD are good for group control so being loud is not that bad. If you want to compare LB to them, you should not take doublezap into account, it is extremely rare to doblezap several monsters with a single LB.

I multizap with lightning bolt all the time. It just requires a bit of positioning. In fact, I rarely use it without multizap, unless I have a bunch of monstes in a corridor.

[Siegurt]

Never missing Fireball and LRD are good for group control so being loud is not that bad. If you want to compare LB to them, you should not take doublezap into account, it is extremely rare to doblezap several monsters with a single LB.

I do it all the time, in fact, about 95% of all my lightning bolts are doublezaps, the only times I don't doublezap is when I can hit >3 creatures with a singlezap (Which are situations I try to avoid)

Doublzapping two critters (provided you have two) looks like this:

  Code:

@##
 MM
#X#


where X is your aiming spot.

[lessens]

Given the same power level, you'll do more damage with a bounced lightning bolt than a fireball (If you hit twice)

Well this is the rub, isn't it? Lightning Bolt misses frequently, and even getting a chance to hit twice often requires allowing a monster to walk right up to you, which is a bad idea for e.g. an AE that just entered Lair who wants to fight a hydra. Fireball, on the other hand, never misses and can use used effectively at range. I don't really see how you can argue anything besides "Fireball is the stronger of the two spells". That said I don't think LB needs a buff, it's fine as a somewhat weaker spell that does something interesting, but it definitely doesn't need an additional drawback over stronger spells for (as far as I can tell) entirely flavor reasons.

[Siegurt]

Given the same power level, you'll do more damage with a bounced lightning bolt than a fireball (If you hit twice)

Well this is the rub, isn't it? Lightning Bolt misses frequently, and even getting a chance to hit twice often requires allowing a monster to walk right up to you, which is a bad idea for e.g. an AE that just entered Lair who wants to fight a hydra. Fireball, on the other hand, never misses and can use used effectively at range. I don't really see how you can argue anything besides "Fireball is the stronger of the two spells". That said I don't think LB needs a buff, it's fine as a somewhat weaker spell that does something interesting, but it definitely doesn't need an additional drawback over stronger spells for (as far as I can tell) entirely flavor reasons.

Well, you aren't very likely to miss a hydra with EV0, and my AE's kill hydras with lightning bolts pretty much from the first time they see one, if you can't take 1 hit from a hydra by the time you find one you're doing it wrong, and it almost never takes me more than 2 bounced LB's to kill a hydra, but AE are particular about that, their starting book attack spells do better in melee range (Static discharge, lightning bolt, even shock) so you should be training/equipping for that to begin with.
BUT assuming you aren't comfortable with melee range against a hydra, you can do something like this:

  Code:

#
#      #
XD#### #
#    @ #
########


Shoot at the X, walk around in a circle until the hydra's in position to bounce again, etc. (you can extend this to work on squares, or really any shape where there's some sort of corridor and corner situation) This lets you get as many bounced-ranged shots against your hydra as you would fireballs against a hydra at the same kind of ranges.

It is definitely the more *complicated* spell to use, but weaker, no.

[lessens]

Explosion noise comes from:

Reading this, LRD usually has a noise level of 15, which goes up to 20 if you manage you explode your target, and can only reach 25 (same as LB) with crystal walls.

[Siegurt]

Explosion noise comes from:

Reading this, LRD usually has a noise level of 15, which goes up to 20 if you manage you explode your target, and can only reach 25 (same as LB) with crystal walls.

Right I forgot that spell_effect_noise isn't called by LRD, it calls explosion_noise directly (This makes it sort of odd that it s a handled case)

[lessens]

It is definitely the more *complicated* spell to use, but weaker, no.

If a hydra isn't a good example, then take a spiny frog, or a black mamba, or a pack of wolves, all of which both have significant EV which can make LB's miss rate a huge problem and are fast enough that getting optimal positioning is costly if not impossible (especially given the way Lair levels are generated), and the noise level compounds this because it will draw in more and more of those enemies that you cannot escape and now lack the MP to fight. The game presents a number of threats where Fireball (and LRD to a lesser extent) are simply better than LB just due to their flexibility. I don't want to overstate it, but it's not simply a matter of being more difficult to use, but actually weaker.

You're right that the specifics of LB and Book of Air in general encourage the player to take close fights, and therefore train up defenses to compensate in a way that a FE or VM wouldn't. That's great. But that brings me back to my main point: the way LB works already accomplishes this and it does not need the noise penalty. I can't imagine that, if LB were 15 noise to begin with, anyone would be clamoring to raise it.

[duvessa]

I think lightning bolt is a better spell than fireball even with the noise, but among players with similar knowledge I seem to be in the minority on this.

If you change lightning bolt noise then you should really change chain lightning noise, orb of electricity noise, and divine lightning noise (?), too. A chain lightning buff wouldn't be bad I guess, although it does take it closer to LCS.

[dowan]

In my admittedly limited experience with lightning bolt, it might as well be a level 6 spell, because when it's castable with low spellpower it seems like it can't hit the broad side of a barn, and isn't worth the giant noise it makes. At higher spellpower it's fairly decent, I'd definitely say it gets better than fireball at high spellpower, although at just castable levels, fireball is a much better spell.

I don't see why lightning bolt has to make the same amount of noise as chain lightning, or ball lightning, or divine lightning. Firstly, realism can suck it in crawl, and secondly, those spells have completely different effect. All they have in common is that lightning is in their name. Should flame tongue, throw flame, conjure flame, sticky flame, fireball, and bolt of fire all make the same noise, since they're all fire?

[Rast]

How about keep the noise as-is, and make the spell more accurate?

[Berder]

What's the noise of lightning bolt? And fireball is 25 right?
Lightning bolt is ok/above average when it's always used with double hit bounces.

I'd rather see the power on Lightning Bolt jacked up. As it is, it's weaker than the other bolts, and louder.

It's level 5, not 6.

Venom bolt and bolt of draining are also level 5, and in my experience both are substantially better than lightning bolt.

I rarely bother to get any of the mid-level air damage spells that aren't clouds. Lightning bolt, air strike, and ball lightning all suck. For this reason, after maxing out power on shock I generally go for melee or other schools of magic on my air elementalists.

[and into]

Lightning bolt is solid, and having some spells actually be a bit different in terms of game play and how you use them is a good thing. It is inaccurate with low spell power, so you might want a bit more skill training before using it (especially with wizardry) compared to fireball, but again I think that distinctiveness is good, provided LB is not criminally underpowered, and it isn't (for a level 5 dual school spell that appears in a starting book).

[Siegurt]

For level 5 conjurations we have

  Code:

LB: TH:1+pow/40, Dam: 1d(11+3*pow/5) (Avg 35.5 dmg with 100 power) ** special, can hit twice, extra noise, half to-hit bonus
VB: TH:1+pow/20, Dam: 4d(4+3*pow/20) (Avg 38 dmg with 100 power) ** special, causes poison
BoD: TH:1+pow/20, Dam: (4d((15+3*pow/5)/4) (Avg 37.5 dmg with 100 power) ** special, causes draining
LRD: TH:auto, Dam (mostly 3)d(5+pow/5) (Avg 37.5 dmg with 100 power) ** special, AC is applied three times, does more damage when targeting metal/crystal
Fireball: TH: auto, Dam: 3d((10+pow/2)/3) (Avg 30 dmg with 100 power)


So, does LB "suck"? Well, it's not "obviously much worse" at very least they're all in the same general neighborhood for power level. (LB is definitely the least consistent damage, with the highest potential, and fireball has the lowest potential, but is the most consistent)

[Berder]

For level 5 conjurations we have

  Code:

LB: TH:1+pow/40, Dam: 1d(11+3*pow/5) (Avg 35.5 dmg with 100 power) ** special, can hit twice, extra noise, half to-hit bonus
VB: TH:1+pow/20, Dam: 4d(4+3*pow/20) (Avg 38 dmg with 100 power) ** special, causes poison
BoD: TH:1+pow/20, Dam: (4d((15+3*pow/5)/4) (Avg 37.5 dmg with 100 power) ** special, causes draining
LRD: TH:auto, Dam (mostly 3)d(5+pow/5) (Avg 37.5 dmg with 100 power) ** special, AC is applied three times, does more damage when targeting metal/crystal
Fireball: TH: auto, Dam: 3d((10+pow/2)/3) (Avg 30 dmg with 100 power)


So, does LB "suck"? Well, it's not "obviously much worse" at very least they're all in the same general neighborhood for power level. (LB is definitely the least consistent damage, with the highest potential, and fireball has the lowest potential, but is the most consistent)

So LB does 5-10% less average damage than BoD and VB, is less consistent, is less accurate, and is extremely loud. In compensation for that you can sometimes multizap.

I have a question: where are you getting the to-hit values? I'm looking at https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/mas ... zap-data.h
where I see, assuming I'm reading this correctly:
LB to-hit: 7 + pow / 40
venom bolt: 8 + pow / 20
bolt of draining: 8 + pow / 20

so going by that at pow 100 LB would have 9 to-hit, venom bolt and bolt of draining would have 13 to-hit. How much difference does 4 to-hit make?

[Sandman25]

I've just run a quick test with my mode. AE with Int 20, Spellcasting/Air/Conjurations 10. Spell power is 50, to hit is 8 (Berder is right). The chance to hit Blink Frog seems about 50%.

[duvessa]

effect of AC against lightning bolt is halved so if you are too stupid to multizap you should at least factor that in (if you do multizap it's not terribly different from AC applying once on average)

[Sandman25]

effect of AC against lightning bolt is halved so if you are too stupid to multizap you should at least factor that in

Lightning Bolt is anti-LRD, it is great vs high AC low EV monsters. There are very few such monsters in Lair/branches/Orc/Vaults/Elf and many of them are slow (zombies, for example). Orc/Skeleton Warriors maybe.

[lessens]

What I'm seeing from those numbers is that LB is extremely inconsistent. It's less likely to hit and its damage distribution is linear rather than following a bell curve, meaning there's a significantly bigger randomness factor in how well it kill stuff. To me, that creates a negative synergy with the increased noise: every time you cast it you're increasing the current threat level by dragging in monsters from across the map, and you're using the most inconsistent spell of its level, meaning as combat progresses you get more and more opportunities for it to fail completely and leave you with no MP facing monsters that can kill you.

[lessens]

Also whether LB is strong or weak relative to other conjurations of the same level is just a side point IMO. Even if LB was indisputably the best I would still recommend lowering the noise level, because a level 5 bolt doesn't need to be nearly as loud as the loudest spell in the game. It doesn't add much and introduces some problems, like compounding the advantage of tediously pulling monsters across the map before killing them. So far I haven't seen anyone give a reason that it should be that loud, just a lot of back and forth about how good of a spell it is.

[Berder]

Lightning bolt is substantially worse than bolt of draining against enemies with 15+ ev, such as spiny frogs, blink frogs, and black mambas. It's okay against lower ev enemies.

To determine this, first I examined beam.cc to figure out how monsters dodge bolts. After reading that, I came up with this:

  Code:

# When a bolt spell is cast at an enemy, calculate the damage reduction factor
# (e.g. a damage reduction factor of 2 means the bolt is dodged 50% of the time)
def EVReductionEnemyBolt(ev, tohit):
     totreduction = 0
     totdam = 0
     if ev == 0:
          return 1.0
     for rand_ev in xrange(ev):
          for attack in xrange(tohit):
               for roll in xrange(rand_ev):
                    for roll2 in xrange(rand_ev + 1):
                         if attack < (roll + roll2) / 2:
                              totreduction += 1 # 1 damage dodged
                         totdam += 1
     return float(totdam) / (totdam - totreduction)


Based on this, with an enemy ev of 15 (like a spiny frog or black mamba), we find that bolt of draining is about 30% better than lightning bolt against such monsters, assuming both at 100 power. With both at 50 power, bolt of draining is about 20% better. Add on another 10% due to the higher damage of bolt of draining, and we're seeing that one bolt of draining is worth 1.3 or 1.4 lightning bolts against enemies with 15 ev and negligible ac. This is before we count the draining effect from bolt of draining.

Let's try it against a lower ev enemy such as an orc knight. Orc knights have 10 ev. At 50 power this is about a 10% advantage to bolt of draining or venom bolt. At 100 power it's a 15% advantage. However, bolt of draining and venom bolt both have extra effects against orc knights.


Looking at this, I think the main reason lightning bolt feels weak is perhaps not the lower to-hit (which is only contributing), but rather the greater damage variance. You're much less assured of being able to kill an enemy before your tank of mp runs dry, which leads to more situations where you are in trouble and have to use consumables.

It may actually be good if you only use it in melee range and multizap it, but the problem with that is you need heavy defenses and are giving up the main advantage of a mage (killing things at range). Plus it's situational and requires good positioning, which is harder to get when the spell noise attracts attention.

[Siegurt]

Yes, against high EV critters, an AE much is better off using static discharge (which doesn't miss)

[Berder]

Yes, against high EV critters, an AE much is better off using static discharge (which doesn't miss)

In my experience, using static discharge to kill black mambas, spiny frogs, and blink frogs is a risky plan. It's just not that great a spell. I prefer to get strong melee.

[Siegurt]

Yes, against high EV critters, an AE much is better off using static discharge (which doesn't miss)

In my experience, using static discharge to kill black mambas, spiny frogs, and blink frogs is a risky plan. It's just not that great a spell. I prefer to get strong melee.

So with some practical testing, wizmoded up a HEAE and leveled up to 12 and blinked to the lair, then used static discharge and killed 5:5 spiny frogs and 5:5 black mambas without dying, However I did get lethally poisoned on three occasions (requiring a cure potion) it took roughly 3 casts on average to kill each.

Also (for what it's worth) the self-damage inflicted by static discharge is really pretty small (I'm not sure if this is why it's percieved as 'more dangerous' than melee or not, it does do self damage, but the self-harm involved is much less than you would take staying in combat for one extra round, and it does a lot of damage once you get it's spellpower up there)

Again it's *also* a spell that's not very good when you first get it, you need to get some real spellpower to make it work effectively.

[duvessa]

What I'm seeing from those numbers is that LB is extremely inconsistent. It's less likely to hit and its damage distribution is linear rather than following a bell curve, meaning there's a significantly bigger randomness factor in how well it kill stuff.

it's not linear since it hits twice (though it is still less consistent than the other spells on that list)

[bcadren]

Lightning Bolt is noisy because flavour, rather than to balance against power; and that's a bit of a problem for me.

Is Thunderbolt (Lightning Rod) noisy? I don't think it is.

[duvessa]

It's not as noisy as lightning bolt but it's still extremely noisy (16 to 20 per shot depending on how many charges were used). It should probably get a thunderclap message.

[Sprucery]

I think the whole point with LB is that you really, really want to multizap. The loud noise means that you want to have good spellpower so you can kill many things with your MP.

I wonder how big an effect it would have in practice if the noise was reduced to 20? Wiki says that "the radius of the area affected by a noise is: loudness/0.85 = loudness*1.176" so with 25 it is 29.4, with 20 it is 23.5 (considering only empty space here). So 6 squares less to orthogonal directions.

[Hurkyl]

Lightning bolt is solid, and having some spells actually be a bit different in terms of game play and how you use them is a good thing. It is inaccurate with low spell power, so you might want a bit more skill training before using it (especially with wizardry) compared to fireball, but again I think that distinctiveness is good, provided LB is not criminally underpowered, and it isn't (for a level 5 dual school spell that appears in a starting book).

Out of context, yes it's a fine spell.

It has a problem in the context of an AE, though, since until you get high spellpower, AEs don't really have a satisfactory killdude: Shock is great but low damage. Static Discharge requires melee range and gives extremely variable results. Lightning bolt is great when it hits but (IMO) is not reliable enough for relying on it to be comfortable.

The ultimate effect, IMO, is that air elementalists are put in an awkward position in the early game. Although I suppose this may be a feature rather than a problem.

[Berder]

it's not linear since it hits twice (though it is still less consistent than the other spells on that list)

Under ideal circumstances if you are willing to let the enemy get all the way into melee range before shooting, and you can get him diagonally from you with a wall orthogonally from him, it hits twice. To arrange this generally requires a corridor or doorway, or else giving him a free hit as you set the position up.

If you use it at range or in less perfect circumstances it generally hits once. And why wouldn't you use it at range? Unless you have some alternative good source of ranged damage - and air magic doesn't provide one unless you have chain lightning, since airstrike and ball lightning are both terrible - it would just be a waste of a turn not to cast it at the enemy as he approaches.

I wonder how big an effect it would have in practice if the noise was reduced to 20? Wiki says that "the radius of the area affected by a noise is: loudness/0.85 = loudness*1.176" so with 25 it is 29.4, with 20 it is 23.5 (considering only empty space here). So 6 squares less to orthogonal directions.

25 noise attracts 56% more enemies than 20 noise. The number of enemies attracted is proportional to the area the noise reaches.

[bel]

Not sure why people are saying you need to be in melee range for multizap. You just need the monster to be close enough to a wall.

[Berder]

Not sure why people are saying you need to be in melee range for multizap. You just need the monster to be close enough to a wall.

And at the right angle. In my experience you almost never get a multizap on an enemy unless they are diagonal from you and standing in a doorway/end of a corridor, or unless you're willing to have the beam bounce and hit yourself too.

[bel]

Not sure why people are saying you need to be in melee range for multizap. You just need the monster to be close enough to a wall.

And at the right angle. In my experience you almost never get a multizap on an enemy unless they are diagonal from you and standing in a doorway/end of a corridor, or unless you're willing to have the beam bounce and hit yourself too.

As I said already, almost all of my lightning bolt use is multizaps (unless there is a long corridor filled with enemies). Someone else mentioned that 95% of their bolts are multizaps.

The scenario mentioned by Siegurt on this post, is the way I use it normally. It is simple and very common. You see an enemy, you back up a few steps, let it turn a corner, with wall behind it, and bam.

[Sprucery]

The number of enemies attracted is proportional to the area the noise reaches.

True. I'd guess, though, that the farther away the monster is, the less likely it is to actually reach you (I assume it's not like getting marked when everyone comes straight at you). Character stealth probably helps here too. Of course, if you cast LB multiple times, you're giving constant information of your location.

[Berder]

The scenario mentioned by Siegurt on this post, is the way I use it normally. It is simple and very common. You see an enemy, you back up a few steps, let it turn a corner, with wall behind it, and bam.

Well, I could try using that pattern more next time I play an AE. I'm not sure I've really seen that so much - after all it is only one shot per corner you lure the enemy around, and it requires that you have a bendy passage to lure enemies back through, which I'm not so sure happens that much. Not very good against fast enemies either.

The "95%" figure Siegurt mentioned seems only possible to me if Siegurt only uses lightning bolt when there is a multizap, and has something else (a spell? a ranged attack? what?) for when there isn't.

[bel]

In my experience, it works better in D than Lair. D usually has more corridors and sharp corners. Lair usually has a more open layout, with not too many corridors and sharp corners. But it works fine in Lair as well.

Regarding your concern about a "one-time" use of a corner, that is correct, but you don't need to multizap more than 1 or 2 times to kill most early monsters.

[dowan]

This feels like the same debate as the poison cloud vs freezing cloud. Most people's experience says one is vastly better, common tavern wisdom insists those people are wrong.

Back when swiftness was the ultimate kiting spell, setting up multizaps was trivial and not dangerous. Now, you have to expose yourself to some danger to get in multizap position.

Of course, just like the poison cloud vs freezing cloud debate, we're ignoring a very important factor. Namely, you don't typically get to choose whether you'll cast venom bolt, bolt of draining, or lightning bolt. If you're an AE, you just need to get what you can out of LB, and used properly it's really not a terrible spell. But if you had the opportunity to choose between those spells, with fairly equal power, LB would be a bad choice.

you don't need to multizap more than 1 or 2 times to kill most early monsters.

You do if it misses, which it is quite likely to do, especially early with low spellpower.

[tasonir]

Well, you aren't very likely to miss a hydra with EV0, and my AE's kill hydras with lightning bolts pretty much from the first time they see one, if you can't take 1 hit from a hydra by the time you find one you're doing it wrong, and it almost never takes me more than 2 bounced LB's to kill a hydra

Apologies for being pedantic, but hydras have 5 EV; you are probably thinking of their 0 AC. What I'm getting from the rest of the thread is that I should learn lightning bolt and use it to lure things to kill holes...

[Sandman25]

Apologies for being pedantic, but hydras have 5 EV; you are probably thinking of their 0 AC. What I'm getting from the rest of the thread is that I should learn lightning bolt and use it to lure things to kill holes...

It's great in kill holes by the way. It allows to kill monsters you don't see.

[Siegurt]

The scenario mentioned by Siegurt on this post, is the way I use it normally. It is simple and very common. You see an enemy, you back up a few steps, let it turn a corner, with wall behind it, and bam.

Well, I could try using that pattern more next time I play an AE. I'm not sure I've really seen that so much - after all it is only one shot per corner you lure the enemy around, and it requires that you have a bendy passage to lure enemies back through, which I'm not so sure happens that much. Not very good against fast enemies either.

The "95%" figure Siegurt mentioned seems only possible to me if Siegurt only uses lightning bolt when there is a multizap, and has something else (a spell? a ranged attack? what?) for when there isn't.

If they haven't noticed me yet I usually throw a rock or shout (this is how I lure all critters I want to fight in a different location than I find them in, how do you do it? )

[njvack]

Magic Missile is also a good for luring (if you've found it); a spell slot is usually less valuable to me than an inventory slot. But I'm a packrat.