CiP: OpMo of Chei


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Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Saturday, 25th April 2015, 01:30

Post Thursday, 30th April 2015, 19:30

CiP: OpMo of Chei

Here's my current character:

  Code:
Grumpy D the Spry (Octopode Monk)                  Turns: 46715, Time: 06:03:25

Health: 129/129    AC:  3    Str: 38    XL:     18   Next: 3%
Magic:  44/44      EV: 37    Int: 32    God:    Cheibriados [*****.]
Gold:   1102       SH:  0    Dex: 40    Spells: 4 memorised, 19 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     s - +7 demon whip (freeze)
rCold  + . .     Clarity  .     (no shield)
rNeg   + . .     SustAb   .     z - +2 hat
rPois  .         Gourm    +     g - amulet of the gourmand
rElec  .         Spirit   .     y - ring "Focein" {+Fly rN+ Int+4}
rCorr  .         Warding  .     S - +3 ring of strength
rMut   .         Stasis   .     A - +5 ring of dexterity
MR     +....                    D - +5 ring of strength
Stlth  +++++.....               H - +4 ring of strength
                                F - ring of protection from cold
                                R - ring of magical power
                                X - +3 ring of evasion

@: very slow, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, quite stealthy
A: almost no armour, amphibious, 8 rings, constrict 8, camouflage 1, deformed
body, strong 1, gelatinous body 1
a: Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time, Renounce Religion,
Evoke Flight


You are on level 11 of the Dungeon.
You worship Cheibriados.
Cheibriados is extremely pleased with you.
You are completely stuffed.

You have visited 5 branches of the dungeon, and seen 33 of its levels.
You have also visited: Labyrinth.

You have collected 3332 gold pieces.
You have spent 2230 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 r - a +0 hunting sling of velocity
 s - a +7 demon whip of freezing (weapon)
 w - a +0 blowgun
 K - a +2 scimitar of flaming
Missiles
 b - 8 curare-tipped needles
 o - 14 stones (quivered)
 x - 7 poisoned needles
 Y - 3 needles of sleeping
Armour
 u - a +0 large shield
 z - a +2 hat (worn)
Jewellery
 f - an uncursed ring of teleportation
 g - an amulet of the gourmand (around mantle)
 j - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 n - an uncursed amulet of warding
 p - an uncursed ring of wizardry
 y - the ring "Focein" (left tentacle) {+Fly rN+ Int+4}
   (You found it on level 7 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of flight]
   
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It lets you fly.
 A - a +5 ring of dexterity (on tentacle)
 D - a +5 ring of strength (on tentacle)
 F - a ring of protection from cold (on tentacle)
 H - a +4 ring of strength (on tentacle)
 R - a ring of magical power (on tentacle)
 S - a +3 ring of strength (right tentacle)
 X - a +3 ring of evasion (on tentacle)
Magical devices
 c - a wand of polymorph (12)
 q - a wand of disintegration (15)
 L - a wand of fireball
 O - a wand of heal wounds (7)
 T - a wand of fire {empty}
 Z - a wand of fireball (4)
Scrolls
 h - 6 scrolls of teleportation
 k - a scroll of brand weapon
 B - 6 scrolls of remove curse
 C - a scroll of fog
 E - 2 scrolls of recharging
 N - 4 scrolls of magic mapping
 P - 2 scrolls of blinking
 U - a scroll labeled FUURHU STITYGG
 V - a scroll of enchant weapon
Potions
 a - a potion of magic
 d - a potion of resistance
 e - 4 potions of curing
 l - 4 potions of flight
 t - 2 potions of brilliance
 G - 2 potions of agility
 I - 3 potions of restore abilities
 Q - a potion of might
Comestibles
 i - 8 meat rations
 m - 11 fruits
 v - 6 bread rations
 J - a beef jerky
 M - 3 slices of pizza
 W - 8 chunks of flesh


   Skills:
 + Level 13.5 Fighting
 - Level 12.0 Maces & Flails
 + Level 15.6 Dodging
 - Level 2.6 Stealth
 - Level 7.9 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 10.5 Spellcasting
 - Level 8.9 Transmutations
 - Level 10.5 Earth Magic
 - Level 11.7 Invocations
 - Level 3.9 Evocations


You have 19 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Blade Hands           Trmt           ######....   1%          5    ###....
b - Statue Form           Trmt/Erth      ######...    12%         6    #####..
c - Passwall              Trmt/Erth      ######....   1%          3    None
d - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           ######....   1%          5    ###....

Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You cannot wear most types of armour.
You are amphibious.
You can wear up to eight rings at the same time.
You can use your tentacles to constrict many enemies at once.
Your skin changes colour to match your surroundings (Stealth).
Your rubbery body absorbs attacks (AC +1).
Your body is misshapen.
Your muscles are strong. (Str +2)


So, this is one of the best OpMo runs that I've had, and I am coming in for some general advice. Here are some things I'm hoping to get suggestions about:

*There's a randart ring with -2 Str and +2 slaying. I know slaying is very good, but I'm not sure that the Str penalty offsets that. Ideas?
*I'm not sure about training shields. I picked one up to have the option, but statue form also provides me a very nice AC
*I didn't know if UC was better than a Demon Whip, so after reading the Wiki I trained up for it. With Op and Statue Form, was that a mistake?
*I've cleared Lair, Orc, first two floors of Elf (don't intend to do the 3rd), and first three floors of Shoals. I'm thinking clear Dungeon up to the depths next?

Any other advice appreciated. This is my first char dump, so feel free to dig in and critique. Thanks.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5375

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 30th April 2015, 19:58

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

The randart -2 str +2 slay ring is pretty useless, it's about a wash on damage and since you already have 8 rings, you'd be giving up something that actually helps, like a +3 str ring. That being said, +str +dex rings aren't really the best for you, I just assume you haven't been able to find any protection or many resist rings yet. Hopefully you get some nice one soon. I'd probably keep the protection from fire on rather than +3 strength, unless you're really good about switching rings all the time. I tend to not micromanage them and you'd be better off with the fire resist.

Shields are great, don't conflict with statue form, and it's worth the 15 skill to use a regular shield.

I'd say that UC is better than a demon whip, but you've also found a pretty good demon whip rather early on, so there's no reason you couldn't use that. You have the 12 maces skill, although unarmed at 8 isn't terribly far behind. I'd work on your casting/defenses for a while before worrying about offense, the whip is strong enough for now. Training unarmed to around 18ish* would beat the whip, if I had to ballpark it. Something you could do after shields and some magic skills, possibly.

Any reason you aren't wearing the wizardry ring when statue form is at 12% fail? I assume you haven't found stoneskin yet, but if you do, learn it.

Yes, finish the dungeon, and then go for the rune branches. I usually clear dungeon before even entering them, but you've already done some of shoals, so the remaining dungeon floors should be pretty easy for you now.

* edit: the 18ish is for non-statue form UC. In Statue form, UC is probably already doing more damage per time, but swings at > 10 aut, which is something to be careful with.

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GrumpD

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8784

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 30th April 2015, 21:30

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

The 2 slaying will increase this character's damage by much more than 5 strength. Stop making stuff up.

tasonir wrote:I'd say that UC is better than a demon whip ... unarmed at 8 isn't terribly far behind ... Training unarmed to around 18ish* would beat the whip, if I had to ballpark it. Something you could do after shields and some magic skills, possibly.
This is probably the worst advice you've ever given.

tasonir wrote:In Statue form, UC is probably already doing more damage per time
no

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Saturday, 25th April 2015, 01:30

Post Thursday, 30th April 2015, 22:00

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

OK, so just to be clear, I should go ahead and wear the slaying ring over one of Str (so a net loss of 5 Str)? And rocking the demon whip is in fact the best way to go?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6446

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Thursday, 30th April 2015, 22:03

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

That is definitely the way to go.
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6446

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Thursday, 30th April 2015, 22:06

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Although the slaying is better than the strength, it isn't by a very large margin, so if you have some other reason to want more strength go for it, it won't make a noticeable difference.
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5375

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 30th April 2015, 22:33

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

duvessa wrote:
tasonir wrote:In Statue form, UC is probably already doing more damage per time
no

I don't want to run fsim at work but statue form with 8 UC is 11 + (38/3) for a base damage of 23.6, and an attack speed of roughly 1.3. The whip would be 16 damage at a speed of .75, so UC being comparable makes sense to me (whip is about 10-15% better). The +7 and freezing helps the whip a lot, but the final strength bonus only applies to base damage which would help UC a lot more, so I didn't account for those. In the end it'll help the whip more I suppose, but I don't think I'm that far off. I can try to fsim it later on. In any case, if unarmed was equal at 12, it'd certainly improve a lot.

My advice was that UC for this character is in general better than a whip if you're starting from nothing - I suggested they keep using the whip for now, which I don't think is terrible advice. The way you edited it, it sounded like I was saying go UC immediately, which I wouldn't do. In any case, it'd be nice if you provided more reasoning behind your claims - you explain squareLOS so well and everything else gets one line :P
Last edited by tasonir on Thursday, 30th April 2015, 23:26, edited 1 time in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8784

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 30th April 2015, 23:15

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Saying that switching to UC on this character, ever, would be reasonable, is terrible advice. It has a +7 demon whip of freezing. Why spend a bunch of experience to switch to something that does less damage?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5375

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 30th April 2015, 23:33

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

If, later on, when you have various defenses/spells going, you could invest a moderate but reasonable chunk of experience into getting more damage, isn't that a good idea? The whip will see very small gains past 12 skill, where UC will keep growing - it will not "do less damage" after you "spend a bunch of experience". The question is how much experience for how much damage is worth it, but UC certainly will deal more damage if you invest in it...

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5375

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 1st May 2015, 01:48

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

So I tried setting up the character to be the same - level 18, same stats, same level of fighting/maces/unarmed. level 13 transmutations/earth to put statue form at 1% fail. That shouldn't matter, as long as we're actually in statue form.

I picked a high AC target (orb of fire) because we've already established the whip is great for now, and we're talking about does UC have a better end game.

+7 demon whip of freezing with 12 skill is 20.2
Unarmed, with 8 skill is 19.3.

Testing on a lower ac target (orb spider) shows the whip at 12 skill (45.4) beats UC at 8 (35.4), but by the time UC is 12 (45.4), they're tied again. And by 27 the whip is at 54.8, while UC is at 109.7.

With 12 skill, unarmed would deal 26.5 damage. It goes all the way up to 68.8 at 27 skill, which is more than double the demon whip at 27 skill (25.8 damage), although no one would train maces to 27 for a demon whip, obviously.

So the whip is about 20% stronger than 8 UC, unless it's a high AC target, in which case they're equal. For low AC targets, UC catches up by the time it's also at 12 UC, so UC is the better choice. The only reason you wouldn't use UC is because 1) you're not in statue form this turn or 2) you don't want to make an attack that will take more than 10 auts (enemy double moving would be dangerous). The solution to prevent #2 is to train more unarmed skill, of course, and the solution to #1 is to cast more statue form.

The basic take away is that if you are using statue form, you probably want to be using unarmed. If you also have 40 strength (38 + 2 from statue form), you definitely want to use statue form. Level 9 unarmed beats a 12 skill demon whip, after all. Granted having 40 strength is a bit unusual, but these are the kinds of unusual characters I like to play a lot of, so I'm familiar with them.
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Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 422

Joined: Wednesday, 13th August 2014, 08:34

Post Friday, 1st May 2015, 01:52

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

>I don't want to run fsim at work but statue form with 8 UC is 11 + (38/3) for a base damage of 23.6
Statue form's base damage is UC+6+(Str/3).
https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html#unarmed_combat

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5375

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 1st May 2015, 01:56

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Here's the actual tables:

Spoiler: show
demon whip vs orb spider:
Image

Demon whip vs orb of fire:
Image

unarmed vs orb spider:
Image

unarmed vs orb of fire:
Image

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Berder

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5375

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 1st May 2015, 02:00

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

radinms wrote:>I don't want to run fsim at work but statue form with 8 UC is 11 + (38/3) for a base damage of 23.6
Statue form's base damage is UC+6+(Str/3).
https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html#unarmed_combat

I'll update the wiki, but* the fsim I ran backs up my claims, for the most part. If the target has low ac you need 12 UC to equal the whip, so it being better at 8 was a bit off.

In short, UC scales really, really well with strength, especially when it's in statue form. I'm a bit too lazy to go ahead and test a -2 strength +2 slaying ring but I still think that losing strength is going to hurt your UC Statue form damage more than slaying helps, because it's base damage as well as the regular bonus from strength. It will have less impact on the whip.

*When I originally wrote this, I thought you were pointing out my UC damage had been too high, so said "but"...double checked this and my formula was lower than the actual. Thanks for the catch, either way.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Saturday, 25th April 2015, 01:30

Post Friday, 1st May 2015, 03:45

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

I'm guessing from the discussion taking place here that you guys might enjoy crunching the finer points on these questions. Interesting to read, but you're well out of my depth in terms of explanation. If you don't mind another rudimentary question, I've read that the commitment for a large shield is Shields 25 for the least impedance to casting and combat. Is that worth training over a regular sized shield to 15?
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Vestibule Violator

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Joined: Wednesday, 21st September 2011, 01:10

Location: St. John's, NL, Canada

Post Friday, 1st May 2015, 04:33

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

It's almost never worth training to 25, but sometimes I'm willing to use it underskilled (or I feel like getting the skill anyway). See what it does to your EV, spells, and attack speed (there'll be a lot of variability with the latter).
Pretending large shield doesn't exist is a reasonable thing to do if you aren't sure.
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duvessa

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5375

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 1st May 2015, 19:09

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Any updates from duvessa or siegurt on why they're recommending a weapon which does less damage? Are my numbers wrong? Maybe I should try running it in 16.1, I did use a version of 16 trunk, but it was from january which should be before the melee double damage was introduced. Unless we're going to assume he's meleeing out of statue form, there's no benefit to the whip I can see.

And yes grump, some of us do like running numbers/arguing over numbers and hopefully it isn't too off putting. Didn't mean to overpower your thread so much, but I seem to have fallen into this age old trap: https://xkcd.com/386/

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8784

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Friday, 1st May 2015, 19:11

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

tasonir wrote:Unless we're going to assume he's meleeing out of statue form
That's what I was assuming, yes

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6446

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Friday, 1st May 2015, 20:10

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Yeah, I straight up hadn't looked at his spell list, I had no idea statue form was even in the picture.
Statue form changes the dynamic drastically. (I'm still not certain I would use statue form for every combat at 12% fail though)
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Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Friday, 1st May 2015, 20:19

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

I suspect the =Wiz in inventory would solve that.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 26

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 12:54

Post Friday, 1st May 2015, 21:08

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

When I'm looking at shields, I typically look for Ego over Type in most circumstances.
If I've found a shield of resistance be it buckler, shield, large shield- I'll typically try to get enough skill to get it online. All else being equal I think 15 is reasonable but 25 is a bit steep unless you've found an awesome large shield. Reflection is negligible since it doesn't actually increase your defenses. Although killing a Lich by reflecting his LCS or OoD is always hilarious.
Any of the other ego shields are pretty good, grab one with a resistance you need and get the penalties down to something you are comfortable with, you might also consider protection to help with the ol' AC

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Saturday, 25th April 2015, 01:30

Post Sunday, 3rd May 2015, 19:02

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16.1 (tiles) character file.

Grumpy D the Spry (Octopode Monk)                  Turns: 61748, Time: 10:51:42

Health: 153/153    AC:  6    Str: 39    XL:     21   Next: 33%
Magic:  37/37      EV: 39    Int: 38    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   1165       SH: 17    Dex: 42    Spells: 11 memorised, 3 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     s - +9 demon whip (freeze)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     v - +1 shield {AC+3}
rNeg   + . .     SustAb   +     z - +2 hat
rPois  .         Gourm    +     g - amulet of the gourmand
rElec  .         Spirit   .     y - ring "Focein" {+Fly rN+ Int+4}
rCorr  .         Warding  .     p - ring of wizardry
rMut   .         Stasis   .     A - +5 ring of dexterity
MR     +....                    D - +5 ring of strength
Stlth  +++++.....               H - +4 ring of strength
                                o - ring of Springtime {SustAb Int+4}
                                S - +3 ring of strength
                                X - +3 ring of evasion

@: repel missiles, very slow, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, quite
stealthy
A: almost no armour, amphibious, 8 rings, constrict 8, camouflage 1, deformed
body, strong 1, gelatinous body 1
a: Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time, Renounce Religion,
Evoke Flight
}: 2/15 runes: barnacled, gossamer


You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Cheibriados.
Cheibriados is exalted by your worship.
You are full.

You have visited 7 branches of the dungeon, and seen 41 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have also visited: Labyrinth.

You have collected 4305 gold pieces.
You have spent 3140 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 r - a +0 hunting sling of velocity
 s - a +9 demon whip of freezing (weapon)
 w - a +0 blowgun
 K - a +2 scimitar of flaming
Missiles
 b - 7 curare-tipped needles
 u - 9 poisoned needles
 U - 22 stones (quivered)
 Y - 3 needles of sleeping
Armour
 v - a +1 shield of protection (worn)
 z - a +2 hat (worn)
Jewellery
 a - an uncursed ring of teleport control
 f - an uncursed ring of teleportation
 g - an amulet of the gourmand (around mantle)
 j - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 n - an uncursed amulet of warding
 o - the ring of Springtime (on tentacle) {SustAb Int+4}
   (You acquired it on level 15 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of sustain abilities]
   
   It sustains your strength, intelligence and dexterity.
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
 p - a ring of wizardry (right tentacle)
 y - the ring "Focein" (left tentacle) {+Fly rN+ Int+4}
   (You found it on level 7 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of flight]
   
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It lets you fly.
 A - a +5 ring of dexterity (on tentacle)
 C - the ring "Seathet" {+Fly rPois rC+ Str-3 Dex+4}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Shoals)   
   
   [ring of flight]
   
   It affects your strength (-3).
   It affects your dexterity (+4).
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from poison.
   It lets you fly.
 D - a +5 ring of strength (on tentacle)
 E - an uncursed ring of positive energy
 F - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
 H - a +4 ring of strength (on tentacle)
 R - an uncursed ring of magical power
 S - a +3 ring of strength (on tentacle)
 X - a +3 ring of evasion (on tentacle)
Magical devices
 q - a wand of disintegration (14)
 O - a wand of heal wounds (5)
 T - a wand of digging
 V - a wand of fireball
 W - a wand of fire
 Z - a wand of fireball (4)
Scrolls
 h - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 k - 3 scrolls of summoning
 m - 2 scrolls of fog
 B - 5 scrolls of remove curse
 I - a scroll of identify
 N - 5 scrolls of magic mapping
 P - 3 scrolls of blinking
Potions
 c - a potion of cure mutation
 d - 2 potions of resistance
 e - 9 potions of curing
 l - 2 potions of flight
 t - 3 potions of brilliance
 G - 2 potions of agility
 L - a potion of heal wounds
 Q - a potion of might
Comestibles
 i - 9 meat rations


   Skills:
 - Level 15.8 Fighting
 - Level 12.1 Maces & Flails
 - Level 18.0 Dodging
 - Level 2.6 Stealth
 + Level 9.2 Shields
 - Level 7.9 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 10.5 Spellcasting
 - Level 6.0 Conjurations
 - Level 8.9 Transmutations
 - Level 14.1 Earth Magic
 - Level 11.7 Invocations
 - Level 9.5 Evocations


You have 3 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Blade Hands           Trmt           ######....   1%          5    None
b - Statue Form           Trmt/Erth      #######..    3%          6    ####...
c - Passwall              Trmt/Erth      #######...   1%          3    None
d - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           #######...   1%          5    None
e - Stoneskin             Trmt/Erth      #######.     1%          2    None
f - Bolt of Magma         Conj/Fire/Erth ######....   4%          5    None
g - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          3%          2    None
h - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ###...       3%          2    None
i - Iron Shot             Conj/Erth      #######...   4%          6    ####...
j - Summon Butterflies    Summ           ###.....     1%          1    None
k - Apportation           Tloc           ###.......   1%          1    None




Thanks to everyone for the insights so far, and I don't mind at all that some of the finer points are getting discussed, should help my game ultimately to understand some of it. I've go two runes now, which is great (I've never ascended), and I'm going to head back to Vaults. I cleared the first floor pretty easily by stair dancing groups out, but I did get banished by a wizard. I nearly died a couple of times but luckily found a gate out. I'm training shields now, will get the skill up to 15.

I really need advice about rings please. I'm also wondering what to train once Shields is up to 15. Thanks!

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1093

Joined: Sunday, 12th August 2012, 02:29

Post Sunday, 3rd May 2015, 19:11

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Should definitely have at least one pip of cold/fire resistance now, I think. You have both fire/cold protection rings; wear them.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Saturday, 25th April 2015, 01:30

Post Sunday, 3rd May 2015, 19:15

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Typically, I throw one on as needed. Would having a pip of each all the time be better than other things I'm wearing at present?

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1093

Joined: Sunday, 12th August 2012, 02:29

Post Sunday, 3rd May 2015, 19:25

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

GrumpD wrote:Typically, I throw one on as needed. Would having a pip of each all the time be better than other things I'm wearing at present?


Yes. Chei boosts your attributes quite nice already, and I'd wear ring of protection from fire than +3 ring of dexterity for most of the time. Having even one resistance point helps significantly against many elemental-type attacks, of which you're bound to meet plenty from now on-fire giant, ice giant, simulacrum, salamanders, etc. And without any resistance they can reduce your hp in a surprising amount very quickly.

  Code:
the ring "Seathet" {+Fly rPois rC+ Str-3 Dex+4}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Shoals)   

I would definitely wear this ring-it gives you two resistances, one of it being rC.

For this message the author nordetsa has received thanks:
zxc23

Tartarus Sorceror

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Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Sunday, 3rd May 2015, 20:36

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Octopodes who can get statue form... should spend every nontrivial fight in statue form, with a few exceptions (orb of fire tops the exception list, followed by deep troll earth mages/jorgrun, and hellions).

tasonir are your damage tables with or without a shield? Although an octopode with statue form can get away with no shield, a shield would be preferable, particularly if there's one available that grants resistances.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 5th May 2015, 18:44

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Good point - I don't think I had a shield when I generated the above. That should be 10% less damage to unarmed then? Wouldn't change that unarmed is much stronger, but does reduce how much stronger it is by a bit.

Why would you not use statue form for OOF's? I can certainly understand not wanting to walk towards a distant OOF in statue form, which is a huge risk (unless you're rF++ or higher), but once you're near them, the huge damage increase should help you to kill it faster? OOF can always double act on you anyways...

Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 7th May 2015, 20:16

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Hi folks, I'm back with a new char dump, and I'm excited to say the most runes I've collected as an octopode! My big issue is that I'm starting to become a mess from mutations. I had a handful of not-so-bad ones along with great ones, and I did Slime hoping to find rMut. No rMut, and a few more nasty mutations later, and I'm wondering what my next step is. I have 4 potions of cure mutation I can drink, but it seems like I'm going to inevitably run into more monsters who can mutate me.

I've cleared Elf 3 looking for rMut with no luck, and I've got all the runes now apart from the ones in the hells and Pan. Am I strong enough to do the Hells? Should I try running around the Abyss hoping for rMut? Thanks for any advice.





  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16.1 (tiles) character file.

Grumpy D the Acrobat (Octopode Monk)               Turns: 91797, Time: 16:40:56

Health: 201/201    AC:  6    Str: 30 (32) XL:     27
Magic:  30/30      EV: 47    Int: 29 (30) God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   4306       SH: 25    Dex: 41 (42) Spells: 10 memorised, 25 levels left

rFire  + + +     SeeInvis .     s - +9 demon whip (freeze)
rCold  + + .     Clarity  .     v - +5 shield {AC+3}
rNeg   + + .     SustAb   +     z - +2 hat
rPois  +         Gourm    .     V - amulet of regeneration
rElec  +         Spirit   .     J - ring of Cheibriados' Favour {rElec rF+ rC+ rN+}
rCorr  .         Warding  .     U - ring of Untruth {-Tele rElec rF+ MR+ Str+2}
rMut   .         NoTele   +     C - ring "Seathet" {+Fly rPois rC+ Str-3 Dex+4}
MR     +++++                    X - +3 ring of evasion
Stlth  +++++++++.               j - ring of protection from fire
                                R - ring of Doubts {rF+ rN+ MR+ Str+4 Int-4}
                                o - ring of Springtime {SustAb Int+4}
                                N - ring "Xossuos" {rElec MR+}

@: very slow, almost entirely resistant to hostile enchantments, incredibly
stealthy
A: almost no armour, amphibious, 8 rings, constrict 8, repulsion field 2,
camouflage 1, blurry vision 2, clumsy 1, deformed body, deterioration 1, low mp
3, magic resistance 1, sense surroundings 1, strong 2, teleportitis 2,
gelatinous body 1, placid magic 1
a: Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time, Renounce Religion,
Evoke Flight
}: 5/15 runes: barnacled, slimy, silver, abyssal, gossamer


You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Cheibriados.
Cheibriados is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 11 branches of the dungeon, and seen 58 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 4 times.
You have visited 1 bazaar.
You have also visited: Labyrinth.

You have collected 7608 gold pieces.
You have spent 3302 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 s - a +9 demon whip of freezing (weapon)
 w - a +0 blowgun
Missiles
 b - 15 curare-tipped needles
 u - 9 poisoned needles
Armour
 v - a +5 shield of protection (worn)
 z - a +2 hat (worn)
Jewellery
 a - an uncursed ring of teleport control
 f - an uncursed ring of teleportation
 j - a ring of protection from fire (on tentacle)
 l - a ring of see invisible
 o - the ring of Springtime (on tentacle) {SustAb Int+4}
   (You acquired it on level 15 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of sustain abilities]
   
   It sustains your strength, intelligence and dexterity.
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
 C - the ring "Seathet" (on tentacle) {+Fly rPois rC+ Str-3 Dex+4}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Shoals)   
   
   [ring of flight]
   
   It affects your strength (-3).
   It affects your dexterity (+4).
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from poison.
   It lets you fly.
 J - the ring of Cheibriados' Favour (left tentacle) {rElec rF+ rC+ rN+}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   [ring of protection from cold]
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from negative energy.
 N - the ring "Xossuos" (on tentacle) {rElec MR+}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   [ring of protection from magic]
   
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 R - the ring of Doubts (on tentacle) {rF+ rN+ MR+ Str+4 Int-4}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   [ring of protection from fire]
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It affects your intelligence (-4).
   It protects you from fire.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 U - the ring of Untruth (right tentacle) {-Tele rElec rF+ MR+ Str+2}
   (You took it off an ironheart preserver on level 5 of the Vaults)   
   
   [ring of strength]
   
   It affects your strength (+2).
   It protects you from fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It prevents most forms of teleportation.
 V - an amulet of regeneration (around mantle)
 X - a +3 ring of evasion (on tentacle)
Magical devices
 n - a wand of lightning (2)
 x - a wand of cold (8)
 K - a wand of fire (9)
 O - a wand of heal wounds (9)
 T - a wand of digging (12)
Scrolls
 h - 7 scrolls of teleportation
 k - 2 scrolls of summoning
 m - 3 scrolls of fog
 q - 2 scrolls of silence
 t - a scroll of recharging
 H - 2 scrolls of remove curse
 P - 5 scrolls of blinking
 Z - 2 scrolls of holy word
Potions
 d - 2 potions of resistance
 e - 9 potions of curing
 F - 2 potions of restore abilities
 G - a potion of agility
 L - 5 potions of heal wounds
 Q - 4 potions of might
Comestibles
 i - 14 meat rations


   Skills:
 + Level 20.1 Fighting
 - Level 17.0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 23.4 Dodging
 - Level 13.8 Stealth
 + Level 20.0 Shields
 - Level 7.9 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 16.2 Spellcasting
 - Level 6.0 Conjurations
 - Level 8.9 Transmutations
 - Level 19.5 Earth Magic
 - Level 11.7 Invocations
 - Level 11.9 Evocations


You have 25 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Blade Hands           Trmt           ######....   1%          5    None
b - Statue Form           Trmt/Erth      ######...    1%          6    ###....
c - Passwall              Trmt/Erth      ######....   0%          3    None
d - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           ######....   0%          5    None
e - Stoneskin             Trmt/Erth      ######..     0%          2    None
g - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
h - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ###...       1%          2    None
i - Iron Shot             Conj/Erth      ######....   1%          6    ###....
j - Summon Butterflies    Summ           ###.....     1%          1    None
k - Apportation           Tloc           ###.......   1%          1    None

Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You cannot wear most types of armour.
You are amphibious.
You can wear up to eight rings at the same time.
You can use your tentacles to constrict many enemies at once.
Your skin changes colour to match your surroundings (Stealth).
Your rubbery body absorbs attacks (AC +1).
You are surrounded by a moderate repulsion field (EV +3).
Scrolls take you longer to read.
You are clumsy. (Dex -2)
Your body is misshapen.
Your body is slowly deteriorating.
Your magical capacity is extremely low (-30% MP).
You are resistant to hostile enchantments.
You passively map a small area around you.
Your muscles are very strong. (Str +4)
Space sometimes distorts in your vicinity.
Your spells are a little easier to cast, but a little less powerful.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5375

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 7th May 2015, 20:47

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Training M&F past 12 with a demon whip isn't much of an improvement. I assume you are still fighting in statue form for non trivial fights? I recommend this - and if you are, then you should switch to unarmed. You can train it to around 12-15, then switch, if you like. Keep training it until around 20, and the damage will be about 50% higher than the whip. If you do train it to 27, the damage will be 100% higher.

Your bad mutations are considerably worse than the good mutations, I'd quaff cure mutation. It'll take at least 2 and probably 3 to clear most of the mutations, although reconsider your mutation set after each potion, if you get rid of some of the bad ones it might be worth stopping after one. Worst ones are blurry vision and placid magic, with deterioration, random blinking, and -mana also being fairly impactful.

Stop training shields assuming you're going to keep the shield of protection - if you have a stashed large shield somewhere that you're training for, then you could keep training that. But it'd have to be a pretty good large shield to be worth it. +5 shield of protection is an excellent shield, by the way.

Doing extended without rMut is a huge pain, especially when you already have mutations that are worth clearing and will be running low on cure mutation potions. Your best shot at finding the amulet now would be a ziggurat. This character can easily clear down to zig:10-12, can probably clear to around 15ish, and will start to get in trouble after that. Floor numbers are a guide line, I do not guarantee your safety up to 12, etc etc. Be careful out there. Consider packing it up and doing a 5 rune win.

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

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Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Thursday, 7th May 2015, 20:51

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

If you've never ascended, you could also, you know, just win.
User avatar

Tomb Titivator

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Post Thursday, 7th May 2015, 21:24

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

GrumpD wrote: My big issue is that I'm starting to become a mess from mutations.
Summon Butterflies+PProj+javelins can save you sometimes not to get some mutations, or even firing bolt of magma/iron shot behind butterflies.
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5375

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 7th May 2015, 23:35

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Also you have some downright bad rings on - your plain ring of protection from fire, for example, is your 4th pip of rF, and does nothing. Even if it was just your third, having two pips of rF is generally enough for everything outside of perhaps fighting cerebov (the unique fire pan lord). So that could be removed. Your rElec and MR ring is your third source of rElec, and you have MR+++++ in total, while mr++++ is enough for everything. You aren't carrying much in the way of rings to swap with, but any ac/ev rings, or failing that, going back to +str +int +dex rings, would be better. You could even use the ring of magical power for +9 mana if you like. Step from time does cost a lot of mana...

The total difference of this isn't going to be huge, but it's something. It'd be a lot better if you had 4+ ac rings, of course, but I assume none of those have been found.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Saturday, 25th April 2015, 01:30

Post Friday, 8th May 2015, 19:47

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Thanks for all the advice here. I'll start working up UC over shields, and I'll try to make better use of Summon Butterflies to block mutators' LOS. I swapped around rings too, and I just found a +4 slaying in Zot:1.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 415

Joined: Monday, 8th December 2014, 10:31

Location: Sweedledome

Post Friday, 8th May 2015, 21:16

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

tasonir wrote:Good point - I don't think I had a shield when I generated the above. That should be 10% less damage to unarmed then? Wouldn't change that unarmed is much stronger, but does reduce how much stronger it is by a bit..


Why -10% damage? Are you thinking off the off-hand punch? Octopodes always get their off-tentacle slap, regardless of whats held, they have 8 afterall!

Octopodes should pretty much all carry shields, unless you want to hold something that needs 2hands itself theres very little reason not to take one.

edit: perhaps your '10%' is an allowance for the occasional attack-delay penalty to UC for holding a shield? I remember reading something about that somewhere.
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5375

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 14th May 2015, 00:34

Re: CiP: OpMo of Chei

Yeah, for unarmed only, using a shield adds a 50% chance of +1 aut delay to your attacks. The 10% value is therefore only exact if you have 27 skill - if you have 16.2 skill (base attack delay of 7 aut) and high enough shield skill, you do 7.1% less damage.

Octopodes don't lose the offhand punch, but they still get the 50% chance of +1 aut delay. I believe every race does, although I'm not sure if Fo are exempt. They should be, imho, but I don't know if they are.

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