The Debate Derail Thread


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Post Friday, 20th March 2015, 19:02

The Debate Derail Thread

Okay, here's an idea.

This thread is going to be a debate thread, about anything. Derailing is encouraged. Please send this thread on whatever crazy direction you want to, just keep it going. We get to have an interesting social experiment, and maybe a few insightful debates.


(If you're derailing, post a Yiuf quote at end of your post.)
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Post Friday, 20th March 2015, 19:04

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

i agree
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Post Friday, 20th March 2015, 20:26

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

I accidentally thanked twelwe instead of quoting him;
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Post Friday, 20th March 2015, 21:10

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

twelwe wrote:i agree


I accidentally quoted twelwe instead of thanking him.
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Post Friday, 20th March 2015, 21:35

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Of insteadally twelwed quote accident I himing thank.
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Post Saturday, 21st March 2015, 07:42

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Is it possible to derail a derail thread?

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Post Saturday, 21st March 2015, 12:58

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

chemtrails

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Post Saturday, 21st March 2015, 13:08

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it's an ethos, Dude...

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Post Saturday, 21st March 2015, 20:53

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

moocowmoocow wrote:Is it possible to derail a derail thread?


To derail a derail thread, one must talk about serious ethical issues, which will constitute a derail.


My head hurts.
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Post Sunday, 22nd March 2015, 15:55

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Image
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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 04:18

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Greyr wrote:Image



What. Is. That.
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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 05:10

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

I think you know.
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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 05:10

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

I think this thread is a new low, even for CYC.
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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 07:18

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

xentronium wrote:I think this thread is a new low, even for CYC.


Yeah but can you prove it with a Sequell query?

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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 07:25

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Zooty wrote:
xentronium wrote:I think this thread is a new low, even for CYC.


Yeah but can you prove it with a Sequell query?


No one would believe me if I did T.T
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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 08:05

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

xentronium wrote:I think this thread is a new low, even for CYC.

Needs more Chei debate.
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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 15:12

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

(I'm going nuclear)

How can we get more girls to play Crawl?
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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 15:19

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

define "girl"

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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 16:03

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

I think gloorx vloq is my least favorite pan lord.
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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 16:08

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

treerex5 wrote:What. Is. That.


Looks like a dude and that tree-based Skylander my kid has.

My kid.
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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 19:29

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Dad?
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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 21:05

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Greyr wrote:Dad?


UxaUxa?
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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 23:01

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

xentronium wrote:I think gloorx vloq is my least favorite pan lord.

Lom Lobon hands down. Reason: Once you're in melee with him he either blinks away or twisters you away. Just let me stand next to you damnit.
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Post Monday, 23rd March 2015, 23:12

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Greyr wrote:Dad?



Mom?
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Post Tuesday, 24th March 2015, 02:19

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

tasonir wrote:
xentronium wrote:I think gloorx vloq is my least favorite pan lord.

Lom Lobon hands down. Reason: Once you're in melee with him he either blinks away or twisters you away. Just let me stand next to you damnit.

yeah, playing a Naga is not that cool anymore, is it? muahahahaha :twisted:
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Post Tuesday, 24th March 2015, 13:05

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

The end is nighy, Bill Nighy.
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Post Tuesday, 24th March 2015, 15:05

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Hirsch I wrote:
tasonir wrote:
xentronium wrote:I think gloorx vloq is my least favorite pan lord.

Lom Lobon hands down. Reason: Once you're in melee with him he either blinks away or twisters you away. Just let me stand next to you damnit.

yeah, playing a Naga is not that cool anymore, is it? muahahahaha :twisted:


Playing a Naga? Just hit Lom with Slouch.
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Post Thursday, 26th March 2015, 20:17

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

[/quote] Playing a Naga? Just hit Lom with Slouch.[/quote]


Because all Nagas should worship chei.







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Post Thursday, 26th March 2015, 20:41

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Don't explain jokes; it just makes you the worst Skylander.
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Post Thursday, 26th March 2015, 21:09

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Sometimes the best jokes are the worst jokes
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 01:14

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Sometimes the worst jokes are Siri jokes
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 01:16

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

every single time the worst jokes are Treerex's jokes.
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 01:23

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

I dislike Roguelite and particularly Roguelike-like on the basis that they are awfully formed words from a verbal point of view (though Roguelike-like is also offensive to the eyes and makes me slightly angrier every time I see it) and make me feel substantially goofier and less respectable every time I say them. I usually call BoI/RoR/FTL and the like Roguelikes the same way I do DCSS and Nethack. DCSS and Nethack are additionally "classic" roguelikes.

If a separate term is required for RoR/BoI/etc, I would like to propose what is clearly the best solution to this etymological conundrum, which is to create the new designation "Rougelikes."

Edit: Just when I thought it was safe, my inattention strikes from the shadows and places my post firmly in the wrong thread. Pretend this was a marginally witty comment instead. But not too funny.

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 01:33

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

WalrusKing wrote:I dislike Roguelite and particularly Roguelike-like on the basis that they are awfully formed words from a verbal point of view (though Roguelike-like is also offensive to the eyes and makes me slightly angrier every time I see it) and make me feel substantially goofier and less respectable every time I say them. I usually call BoI/RoR/FTL and the like Roguelikes the same way I do DCSS and Nethack. DCSS and Nethack are additionally "classic" roguelikes.

If a separate term is required for RoR/BoI/etc, I would like to propose what is clearly the best solution to this etymological conundrum, which is to create the new designation "Rougelikes."

Edit: Just when I thought it was safe, my inattention strikes from the shadows and places my post firmly in the wrong thread. Pretend this was a marginally witty comment instead. But not too funny.


Funnily enough, I'd say your post is the most in conformity to the OP's request so far. Perhaps the thread you're replying to might even have fit nicely into this thread.

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 03:00

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Why does someone, or multiple people, have to appear on every anime video for Naruto, Attack on Titan, Fairy Tail, Bleach, Blue Exorcist, etc. and bring DBZ into it? Yes, we know Goku is powerful. We know he's a god. But that doesn't mean you have to go and bash every single damn anime and say "If goku was there he'd wipe all the titans" or "Goku would murder Madara", "Natsu might have beaten a fire god slayer but he can't beat Goku". These are the comments I've seen and it's annoying as fuck. So what if he's the strongest? Superman is the strongest DC Universe and could destroy any Marvel character, but you don't see people giving a shit about that in comments. Grow up. Just because other animes don't have overpowered gods in it doesn't mean it isn't a good anime. I literally don't care for DBZ anymore because of the die hard fans of it that have to talk shit online and compare it to everything. Jesus..
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 03:12

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Guys I need your help. The soap is stuck in my anus and I cant get it out. I already tried to push it out and i coudnt. What should i do? I cant call 911 because theyll tell my mom.

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 03:24

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

duvessa wrote:Guys I need your help. The soap is stuck in my anus and I cant get it out. I already tried to push it out and i coudnt. What should i do? I cant call 911 because theyll tell my mom.


Have you tried turning it off and then back on?

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 03:38

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

you know, something I just recently understood: when you lose someone, you do not have the obligation to keep suffering forever. it is ok to move on, and it is ok to try and be happy again. this does not make the love you felt for this person disappear.
after a while, a time comes where taking care of your future, of the people you love now, and the people you will love in the future is much more important. who knows what waits next corner? life will throw punches, and we have to roll with them. but, after all, from time to time there is a sunset, a smile, a hug that will make everything worth again.
for those who suffer, please do not give up. your fears are not eternal, and your suffering does not matter more than your happiness does. humans have the power to overcome challenges. not a magical power, not a shortcut to happiness, but we can take a lot of punishment, and still enjoy the good moments.
in "The Great Dictator", Charles Chaplin said: "You, the people have the power - the power to create machines. The power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure."
and I agree. this power comes from all of us. our creativity led us to the moon, and our curiosity allowed us to see the world in a way our ancestors could not even fathom. and we are still growing! this way, we, fragile beings of carbon an ammonia, can try to reach for illumination. we can try to reach for wisdom!
do not give up. if there is a fight, there is hope. live, all of you. live so we can see the future together! let's keep walking, carrying in our hearts the memories of the departed, and in our hands the power to shape the future. rise, my friends, rise and smile, for the world is still there, and ours is the power to live here.
be strong, be at peace, and be happy.
I wish the best for all of you.
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 12:43

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Yeah, I understand that the "randomness" design goal is somewhat qualified in the manual, but it's frequently trotted out in these discussions as "randomness as such." The discussion of vaults later in that section seems to show considerable confusion about the nature of randomness and how it can be used in game design.

Bringing this back to Gozag and potion petition, it appears to me that what's given is a number of independently randomly chosen options. If you argue that the player should be given more choice or that the random choices made by the game should not be independent, then you may run afoul of this design principle. There's no design goal that the player should be able to get what he wants, but there is a design goal of making things random, whether doing so makes sense or not. So on the margin, once a design like current Gozag is set, there's built-in opposition to making it more useful to players by making it less random or offering the player more choice. Even offering interesting trade-offs in prices and so on doesn't help against the charge that you're making things easier on the player by making things less random, even if, in fact, whether it's easier or not on the player isn't even decided -- no one said anything concrete about how to price things in the alternate scheme.

The design philosophy would be improved by some recognition that randomness is a subtle concept and that it must be controlled. Roguelike games are not primarily about randomness, this is just a way in which they differ from most other CRPGs. The key thing is the balance of control and randomness. Unfortunately, by enshrining randomness as such, the design philosophy supports positions that are very dubious -- high variance is good, making random choices independently is good, offering less choice among various random options is good, etc. because those things are "more random" than their alternatives.

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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 12:45

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

duvessa wrote:Guys I need your help. The soap is stuck in my anus and I cant get it out. I already tried to push it out and i coudnt. What should i do? I cant call 911 because theyll tell my mom.


Please report bugs on Mantis: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 17:09

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

One of the things I'd like to discuss related to game design philosophy is the concept of “easy now, hard later” or the inverse of this when applied to designing races, starting kits, or entire spell schools as has been said to me in the case of Pastamancy magic. I am personally biased against having this aspect of a race (etc…) be recognized as a feature of it, rather than an inherent design flaw. It is my goal by writing this to convince others not to proliferate this error in future changes to Crawl. There are a number of reasons for this:

A) It flies in the face of the primary design goal of making the game challenging, with skill making a real difference. It doesn't matter which part of the game a character can trivialize, if their abilities are too strong, challenge is removed, and it isn't as fun to play at that point in the game. The inverse is also true. Ideally, challenge in a game is presented as a smooth curve. As you face more powerful enemies, your own powers (and options) grow proportionately to deal with these new threats. This is incredibly hard to do right, but Crawl has for the most part managed to. Future implementations of “easy now / hard later” or the inverse will only serve to distort this curve for those things affected, and the overall fun of the game will suffer for it.

B) It is lazy. There are much better ways to differentiate spell schools and races than by at which point in the game they are the most useful. It doesn't reflect anything meaningful about the subject in question, like racial mutations, aptitudes, or unique spell effects pertaining to specific schools do. Pastamancy is a one trick pony, all it does is pasta and physical damage with the lone exception of its Dessertology dual-school spell Sweet Ice Noodles. There is nothing really interesting or unique about it, especially when there is a large variety of physical weapons that can do Pasta element damage available from D1 onward. The answer is not to load up the early game with Pasta vulnerable enemies and leave only a few in the late game, that does not make Pastamancy itself more interesting or fun to play with, it just causes the school to become even less interesting when you spam its late game nuke, Meatball Cannon, for the massive non-Pasta (physical) damage it does. Meanwhile, at some point, someone has forgotten that Pastamancy was only supposed to be easy in the beginning, because Meatball Cannon also happens to be a top tier nuke of choice for late game. Now the school has a relatively easy early game, an average middle game, and a relatively easy late game compared to more consistent schools, such as Arcane Baking.

C) If it is intended as a feature of something, such as the Pastamancy spell school, then it effects many builds when a key part of it gets changed, such as Sweet Ice Noodles. Many starting kits featuring Dessertology will become less appealing when Sweet Ice Noodles is made a little more sane. If their original appeal (or level of relative strength and viability) is to be maintained, it will now require going into each separate kit and making more adjustments, because a central part of their strategy has been diminished.

D) It is not newbie friendly to feature “easy now, hard later” anything. A new player will latch on to something that is easier to play, then become frustrated or feel cheated when they find out a central xp investment of their character up to that point is suddenly far less useful for the rest of the game. Inversely, races and kits that are unnecessarily difficult in the beginning (Old Ogres, Gnomes, etc…) will be avoided by the majority of players because Crawl is hard enough for most people without handicapping yourself further, and there are plenty of alternatives that maintain their viability all game long.

E) It is inconsistent. There are plenty of examples of races, classes, schools, and strategies that are always powerful, and no one is suggesting there is something wrong with them. Feeling powerful is fun, even if the Crawl reality is that you're just an few bad die rolls away from biting it. This is a psychological aspect of gaming. Players are playing out dreams of fantasy violence and empowerment, and having this interrupted by running into a foul mouthed (but non-threatening) demon that is immune to all of your primary attacks really kills the momentum and the fun for that player. Fun killers can and should be avoided at all costs. Don't confuse this with suggesting that every starting spellbook should be all you need all game long. By D10 it is fine for their inherent strengths and weaknesses to start really factoring in, because they've explored enough of the dungeon at that point to come up with new tactical options to make up for it, such as gods, randarts, new books, and wands.

F) Crawl already offers enough extra challenges in the form of Zigs, Pan, Hells, The Abyss, and going for an all-rune game that this is an unnecessary method of introducing more challenge. A much more interesting method is adding more difficult content like the above mentioned to the game. Don't stop adding ridiculously difficult areas until room for all 27 runes is made! At the same time, ideally, all of the final 27 races should have a shot at getting all 27 runes while maintaining their uniqueness. This is not impossible, it just requires creativity and willingness to work hard at it, which I am convinced the Crawl community has in spades.

Point A

This can make it easier to read

Item 1

Which is very helpful

Item 2

For conveying your thoughts

Item 3

To busy developers

Point B

But it's unnecessary for short feedback posts
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 17:48

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

3 new runes: putrid rune, bacon rune, and tavern rune.


On CYC:5, you encounter the unique pack of Greyr, XuaXua, Duvessa (reincarnated), and 25 Sand Golems.
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 20:45

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

treerex5 wrote:3 new runes: putrid rune, bacon rune, and tavern rune.


On CYC:5, you encounter the unique pack of Greyr, XuaXua, Duvessa (reincarnated), and 25 Sand Golems.


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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 22:49

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Image
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Post Friday, 27th March 2015, 23:32

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

How about a spider race? Moves quickly. Poison fangs, web ability.
Can't wear armour or gloves.
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Post Saturday, 28th March 2015, 00:32

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

and can sexually assault uniques

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Arrhythmia, rockygargoyle, Sar
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Post Saturday, 28th March 2015, 00:54

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

duvessa wrote:and can sexually assault uniques


Op already fill that opening.
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Post Saturday, 28th March 2015, 00:57

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

What key do you press to jump again im hammering spacebar but nothing is happening someone tell me please if i cant jump i cant bunnyhop or rampjump off the stairs and then i have no way to avoid lcs headshots by aliches and have to backtrack for superarmor every time please help

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Sar

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Post Saturday, 28th March 2015, 18:17

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

WalrusKing wrote:lcs headshots by aliches

this sounds like it should be a feature

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Post Saturday, 28th March 2015, 21:26

Re: The Debate Derail Thread

Insane Clown Posse is just before their time, is all
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