When to train defenses

[jeremie]

I was reading an interesting thread on OpFe on when is the right time to train defenses... it seemed to go a little bit sideways but brought me to a good question: when do you train defenses (fighting, dodging, armour, shields, stealth)?

There are two basic scenarios: you're a caster, or you're a melee weapons user. There's variations on those but would be best to keep the discussion on the simple ones so we don't branch off to the thousands of options. Aptitudes are important though and if they make a big difference would be good to mention.

Spellcasters: Focus 100% on spellcasting skills until you get your level 3/4/5 skills online (depending on book). Then train up some combination of dodging/fighting/stealth to a comfortable value (depending on apts, probably 6-10). Then move on to whatever your next way of dealing with enemies will be (skill up a weapon, more spellcasting, etc.)

Melee: Focus 100% on weapon until it's speed 1.0, or faster. Then include dodging/fighting/armour along with your weapon skill until you reach min delay (probably prioritize weapon skill more than other skills so it gets to min delay faster). Idea here is that once you have speed 1.0 you need a little bit of defenses to be able to go head to head with baddies. Obviously you kill things faster at min delay, but getting dodging from 0 to 8 makes a huge difference on damage taken - not sure if more than skilling to min delay would. Recommendations here are appreciated.

Ranged: See melee above, only difference is you pick up a weapon off the ground and train. Don't train ranged weapons at all since you will run out of ammo early on. Once your melee is established then you can train up ranged weapons. Does anyone disagree with this? I'm of the opinion that skilling ranged early on is a bad idea because it's so unreliable. Sure use your ammo to weaken enemies, but if you run out and that was your only way of killing dudes, then you're screwed.

Hybrid (skald, warper): Generally follow the melee advice, but train key spells until they're castable.

Lots of others: Too many to talk about in one thread... would like to keep to the basics

I guess this is very generic because there's so many variables, but I just wanted to know the generally agreed (if it exists ha!) way of skilling up to improve my early game chances

[Sandman25]

I always train ranged with ranged start. I may train some melee also if I find some good melee weapon but still I never disable ranged until it's at min delay (so I may train 2 weapons simultaneously). It means I use ranged vs dangerous monsters and melee for popcorn.

[Berder]

Spellcasters: Focus 100% on spellcasting skills until you get your level 3/4/5 skills online (depending on book). Then train up some combination of dodging/fighting/stealth to a comfortable value (depending on apts, probably 6-10). Then move on to whatever your next way of dealing with enemies will be (skill up a weapon, more spellcasting, etc.)

That's about right. Stealth is something I might pick up a few points of in mid-lair if the aptitude is like +4, otherwise I don't bother. Blaster casters frequently make a lot of noise, rendering stealth less useful, and they start with some stealth anyway.

Melee: Focus 100% on weapon until it's speed 1.0, or faster. Then include dodging/fighting/armour along with your weapon skill until you reach min delay (probably prioritize weapon skill more than other skills so it gets to min delay faster). Idea here is that once you have speed 1.0 you need a little bit of defenses to be able to go head to head with baddies. Obviously you kill things faster at min delay, but getting dodging from 0 to 8 makes a huge difference on damage taken - not sure if more than skilling to min delay would. Recommendations here are appreciated.

What I do: start with weapon until it starts getting 3-4 points ahead of fighting. Then include fighting. After fighting is a couple points ahead of dodging, start with some dodging too. Keep the weapon focused though. Also, if unarmed, then train more unarmed skill and less fighting/dodging, compared to armed. Replace dodging with armor if you are using heavy armor. If you want to use a buckler, focus it 100% until it's at 5.

Ranged: See melee above, only difference is you pick up a weapon off the ground and train. Don't train ranged weapons at all since you will run out of ammo early on. Once your melee is established then you can train up ranged weapons. Does anyone disagree with this? I'm of the opinion that skilling ranged early on is a bad idea because it's so unreliable. Sure use your ammo to weaken enemies, but if you run out and that was your only way of killing dudes, then you're screwed.

Yes - but for a different reason. It would be perfectly possible to use strong ranged on the hard enemies and unskilled melee on the weaker ones, from an ammo perspective. But the real problem is early game ranged is fairly weak compared to early game melee unless maybe if you have some amazing aptitude.

Hybrid (skald, warper): Generally follow the melee advice, but train key spells until they're castable.

More specifically, I would say train the melee aspects first and barely do anything with the spells (except maybe good level 1-2 spells) until you're at like 10 weapon skill. Then switch to getting spells you want, then back to melee. And put points in dex rather than int.

[jeremie]

And put points in dex rather than int.

That's interesting. So for hybrids, or anyone who is primarily going to kill things with weapons, usually go DEX instead of INT? I guess dodging and accuracy are more important than spellpower - especially if it's to get through the earlygame.

[Sandman25]

I tend to train some Stealth on casters early, also I don't make much noise, put first bonus points into Int since I don't have much dodging but need spell power/success right now. I may put late bonus points into Dex/Str.

[Berder]

Oh - if you have a ranged start but are training melee, you may want to just skip training the weapon skill until you find a good one. You can just train mostly fighting with a little dodging on the side, and then when you find a reasonable weapon (not a short blade unless the brand is electrocution) you can switch over to that 100%.

[and into]

There are pretty big differences among the "casters," though. I train dodging early, usually a bit of stealth if the apt is good and I have some experience to throw that way. Might put some in evocations early-ish if I have lots of good wands that aren't nearly replicated by my spells.

I pick up some melee on basically all characters around the time I'm starting Lair, but exactly when depends. On average (this is a generalization) I train melee earlier on Necromancer and Wizard, unless I find another spell book with stronger summons/conjurations.

Up until maybe level 12 or so, I put stat ups into the stat that makes the most sense at the moment. Still trying to get an important early spell more reliable or stronger? Intelligence. About to start training dodging? Probably dex. Later on you can put the points where you would like to branch out more, even if it is not as immediately useful, but until I am ready for Lair and have found the entrance, I think it makes sense to wring out every advantage I can.

Spellcasters: Focus 100% on spellcasting skills until you get your level 3/4/5 skills online (depending on book). Then train up some combination of dodging/fighting/stealth to a comfortable value (depending on apts, probably 6-10). Then move on to whatever your next way of dealing with enemies will be (skill up a weapon, more spellcasting, etc.)

I'd train dodging before fighting, except maybe on ogres or something. (I'd still train dodging on ogres, just might pick up some fighting first). I usually only start training fighting when I have a decent melee weapon, though if you have had bad luck with that, you might eventually reach a point where it makes sense to put a few levels in fighting just for the HP. I'd also definitely train more dodging than 6, and generally more than 10, before I switch to other things. Exact amount depends on the overall character and what else is available.

For instance, my current HEWz had around 11 dodging by like D9 (about 10 AC, 20 EV), and I was getting levels in staves and fighting, since I had found a q.staff and enchanted it up to +4.

Melee: Focus 100% on weapon until it's speed 1.0, or faster. Then include dodging/fighting/armour along with your weapon skill until you reach min delay (probably prioritize weapon skill more than other skills so it gets to min delay faster). Idea here is that once you have speed 1.0 you need a little bit of defenses to be able to go head to head with baddies.

For most species, if you aren't casting spells, you will get better overall defenses without meaningful penalties by throwing on plate armor and as many aux pieces as you can find. That helps with defenses, while you focus on weapon skill.

I do usually train things other than weapon skill before I hit min-delay, though. Major exceptions (to the "wear heavy armor that gives best AC" advice) are with low-strength, small species that get some bonus to EV. Minotaurs can kind of go either way, but I think wearing heavy armor is generally better for them, too. Adjust this for good drops; a well enchanted ring mail, or even +3 leather armor, may well be better for your character than a +0 chain/plate.

Ranged: See melee above, only difference is you pick up a weapon off the ground and train. Don't train ranged weapons at all since you will run out of ammo early on. Once your melee is established then you can train up ranged weapons. Does anyone disagree with this?

I usually start off putting skill in my launcher, first, for a few levels. If I have found a decent melee weapon by that point, I switch to training that. If I find the right ammo type earlier I might put more in my launcher skill, as well.

I guess this is very generic because there's so many variables, but I just wanted to know the generally agreed (if it exists ha!) way of skilling up to improve my early game chances

Aside from very general advice, there is quite a bit of diversity in terms of how to play the early game based on what background you are talking about. Transmuters and enchanters play quite differently from each other, and quite differently from skalds/warpers, etc.

[mikee]

The answer to the question in the title is generally earlier than you think and more than you think. I don't really like thinking in the way that you're outlining as it's extremely difficult not to be wrong when thinking about crawl so categorically. I read the thread you're referring to and I actually was posting a reply in it when it was locked. Specifically, someone 'concluded' that I had learned bolt of magma in some opfe so I could spam it or something. I was pretty curious why I would memorize it as I couldn't remember the game and I despise bolt of magma. Anyway, I watched the ttyrec around lair, and I think it illustrates better than I can with words how I would recommend playing any character, regardless of what you want to call that character. It's not the best game in the world or anything, but it's reasonable, painless looking play: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/mikee/2011-07-30.07:38:56.ttyrec.bz2

[Sandman25]

Could you please write why you learned it? For those who don't watch ttyrecs?

[Lasty]

I agree with mikee about categorical thinking leading one into mistakes in crawl, and I would strongly recommend disregarding advice from heavily categorical thinkers.

Every game of crawl is going to be different, so when you'll want to train what will be different, but there are some guidelines to keep in mind:

1) You get experience by killing things and offensive skills scale well with investment, so you usually want to prioritize keeping at least one offensive skill good enough to kill the sorts of things you need to kill. This is intentionally vague: for some characters that means getting 6 Ice Magic skill so that Freeze is at max power; on others it means getting a weapon skill to 10 or even 12 before it's enough to make the weapon you're swinging sufficiently strong to handle the monsters you're likely to encounter. What it almost never means is "max out your offensive skill before training anything else". Aside from the spellpower caps on level 1 spells, don't worry about hitting any particular breakpoints (min delay or 10 AUT swing speed or whatever).
2) After you can kill things reasonably well, improve your defenses. Usually that means training one or more of Armour, Dodging, Fighting, and Shields. I often start this process by getting ~4-5 levels of Fighting, since it works as enhanced offense and defense, and then switch to Armour or Dodging depending on my dex and body armour. In general, I want to keep all my defensive skills at least at half the level of my highest offensive skill, and usually higher than that.
3) Utility skills. If both your offensive and defensive skills are in reasonable shape, it's often worth branching out into something that gives your character more flexibility, which is to say, something that reduces the range of dangerous or fatal situations you character can be in. Often that means Invocations, Evocations, or a magic school, but it can also mean melee or ranged combat or really anything.

Nothing about this is set in stone; sometimes it'll make sense to train defenses more than offenses; sometimes it'll make sense to diversify into utility skills early. The key is to keep evaluating your options and make sure that you take advantage of new circumstances as they develop.

[Berder]

Generally I like to go for fighting first over dodging unless aptitudes are total junk. Why? It improves melee accuracy and damage, and it gives you more hp, which helps against attacks that cannot be dodged such as smiting and clouds. HP is also a more reliable defense than dodging.

A human at xl 10 with 0 fighting has 63 hp. A human at xl 10 with 10 fighting has 85 hp. This is 34% more hp.
A human at xl 10 with 13 dex in robes with 0 dodging has 10 ev. With 10 dodging, they have 16 ev. This is somewhere around a 30% improvement in durability on average (as an approximate rule of thumb, +3 ev means you can survive around 10% more hits). Of course, that depends on the enemy.

So by that analysis 10 dodging seems to do a similar amount for a human as 10 fighting, strictly from a defensive perspective. But wait, there's more! You want to abandon the fight when your HP gets too low such that you could be killed in a couple unlucky turns. For instance, maybe you want to abandon the fight when your HP drops below 20 (if you're worried about a yak one shotting you). That means your "usable" hp with 0 fighting is only 63 - 20 = 43, and with 10 fighting your usable hp is 86 - 20 = 65 - a 51% advantage! (65 / 43 = 1.51)

So you see how fighting is much better here from a defensive perspective than dodging. And that's not even considering the fact that it also improves your melee offense.

So to summarize the advantages of fighting compared to dodging:
- works on all attacks including smiting and clouds
- is less susceptible to a string of bad luck where you fail to dodge several times in a row
- actually does much more for you defensively than dodging does, when you consider the amount of hp you need to keep in reserve to stay safe
- all that, and it improves your offensive capability too

[Sandman25]

I believe training Armour is even worse than training Dodging. I am always shocked when I see a player with Armour skill higher than Fighting (except DD)

[Sar]

Why wouldn't an XL10 Hu have both Fighting and Dodging?

[Berder]

Why wouldn't an XL10 Hu have both Fighting and Dodging?

Of course it would, because the first few points of dodging are cheaper than the last few points of fighting. The point is that because fighting does more per skill level by all accounts than dodging, the hu should have more fighting than dodging.

[jeremie]

Lots of good advice on this thread. Common theme seems to be train defenses sooner rather than later. So when people say train your weapon to mindelay asap, they really mean, train weapon to mindelay, but train defenses pretty much the whole time along the way (according to the situation).

I watched various parts of the ttyrec. Thanks for that. The bolt of magma was used pretty much only to hit things in a row, specifically when there was a higher threat behind something weak (like a plant or giant frog in the front). Otherwise he seemed to primarily use sticky flame, throw flame, and IMB. I also don't think I ever saw him below about 60-70%hp. Main thing to note were that consumables were always used before a dangerous fight starts, to make the fight go smoothly. Also a lot of pulling back monsters to fight one by one.

As for skills, it was dodging>spellcasting>fighting>fire magic>conjurations by mid lair. I think spellcasting may have had more of an effect on spellpower in earlier versions, which explains why it was quite a bit higher than the other magic schools. Lots of melee was done with a +2 venom dagger - never had any skills in short blades though.

Also, one of the first neat plays was reading fog before fighting a player ghost who knew mephitic cloud - I wouldn't have thought of that. Will have to keep that in mind for fighting ghosts/monsters with clouds.

[Magipi]

So when people say train your weapon to mindelay asap, they really mean, train weapon to mindelay, but train defenses pretty much the whole time along the way (according to the situation).

I think it really depends on your weapon. If you are, say, a merfolk, and your weapon is a trident, mindelay (at 14 skill) is a reasonable goal early. If you are the same merfolk but with a bardiche (mindelay at 26 skill), that is quite different.