New Race: Golem


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Friday, 29th April 2011, 08:18

New Race: Golem

Flavor
I tried to imagine golem in more old-fashioned way, like in the legend it was originated from - man made from burnt clay and magically animated by strong mage/zealot.
*That means no fancy materials from the start like iron, stone, diamond etc. and no "evolving" into other material later on (that's draconian's gimmick).
Playable golem made from terracotta (see terracotta army for inspiration) and have some differences from in-game monster clay golem.
Golem is grey in color with a bit of orange tint and shaped as a large muscular human 2-2,3 meters tall with massive fists/forearms and matching shins/feet. Nevertheless of it's size it can wear armour, but because it have unnaturally big fists and feets - gloves and boots are prohibited.
It is have emotionless expression carved in it's face and dim light glow in eye-sockets instead of actual eyes and same glow from mouth, when opened. Golem have deep echoing voice.
Most messages containing "life" term should be replaced with "existence" for golems. ("You spend a moment contemplating the meaning of existence")
Image
That is how I imagine this variant of Golems. Only with slightly bigger shins that no boot in a dungeon can be wore on. Hands are perfectly sized on the picture. Let me remind you - it's about 2-2,3 m high. Big, but not big enough for armour restriction. And also, you know, made of dense burnt clay, not iron.

Satiation
Golem gains nutrition from magical items instead of organic food and should be evaluated from "enchantment" level of an item - not it's material or size.
Nutrition gained only from enchanted items e.g. armor with +1 enchant or above, or weapon with summary positive bonus of accuracy and damage, that have glowing/runed/embroided status.
Golem devours magic item's essence striping it of all brands, enchantments and properties in a process, leaving mundane +0 weapon or armour. Jewelery get destroyed in a process.
Ego and randart items give set amout of nutrition for every property on top of enchantment level.
From eating +12, +6 sabre of Purpose {pain, +Rage} Golem will get nutrition from each level of enchant + same bonus nutrition for both pain brand and +Rage. There is no need to overcomplicate and give different amount of nutrition for different item properties. Will it be SInv, *TELE, -TELE, reCurse or even +MUT each one will provide same amount of nutrition bonus. Naturally eating rF++ item will provide doubled bonus compared to rF+.
Same rules applied to jewelery. Even amulet of innacuracy will provide nutrition - it doesn't matter that it's properties not beneficial - it still have magic juice in it that makes it running. Considering that jewelery is more light weighted than armor and weapon, it would always be wiser to carry different kinds of jewelery (especially randart)over cumbersome gear.
Enchanted ammunition should give significantly less nutrition for each enchantment level and brands compared to normal weapon.
Nonrandarts' nutrition should be evaluated same as randart's - summary enchantment level + bonus for each property.
While not enchanted items give no nutrition at all and cursed/negatively enchanted items could even harm golems in some way (Sickness analog).
Ring of sustenance/hunger and amulet of gourmand have no effect on golems.
Golem can die of "starvation". When nutrition ends - it just stops moving, and all is left is another motionless statue in the dungeon. Game over.

Stats
High strength. Medium dexterity. Low intelligence.

Wands
Cosuming all charges of a wand will instantly restore big amount of HP, averaging to HW-potion. The more charges in a wand and the more it is valuable - the more HP will be restored in an instant.

Properties
Golems are slow.
Golems have above average HP (Ce) and some passive AC boost
Golems can not go berserk and be transmuted in other living or undead forms.
Golems have increased spell cost.
Can not wear boots, gloves and bucklers. Can't use blowguns.
Golems have innate "gourmand" and slow metabolism.
Golems do not heal naturally while Hungry and below. Have slow regeneration at Satiated. Have normal regeneration at Full and above.
Golems can not consume potions.
Golems are unbreathing beings

Resistances
rElec, rNegative+++
Poison, Rot, Mutation, Torment immunities
LRD, Shatter and Disintegration vulnerable.

Aptitudes
Most of the golems served they masters for centuries and learning new things for them is quite hard.
Exp 140-160

  Code:
Armour +2
Dodging -1
Stealth -4
Stabbing -4
Shield 0
Traps&Doors 0
Invocation +1
Evocations +3

Fighting 0
ShortBl -2
LongBl  0
Maces&Flails 0
Axes 0
Polearms 0
Staves 0
Unarmed +2
Throwing 0
Slings -4
Bows -4
Crossbows -2

Spellcasting -5
Conjuration -4
Hexes -3
Charms -3
Summoning -4
Necromancy -4
Transmutation -3
Translocation -4
Fire -4
Ice -4
Earth -4
Air -4
Poison -4


Gods
Some of golems was created by priests and zealots of various religions for servitude. So most Gods have no prejudice to golem worshipers. There are exceptions of course.
Fedhas should accept golems as worshipers - they are not products nor instruments of necromancy.
Yredemnul against artificial creations it seems and will not accept golems as worshipers.

Death
You cease to exist...
Should not leave ghosts.
Also as added bonus, when received killing blow - magical energy source explodes in large radius doing massive damage to everyone around. Does not affect score or anything - just sweet last revenge =)

Tiles
I have already made player dolls for Golems. Just in case.
Image
Last edited by Curio on Wednesday, 18th May 2011, 21:29, edited 7 times in total.

For this message the author Curio has received thanks: 2
mageykun, Roderic
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1459

Joined: Sunday, 19th December 2010, 05:45

Location: New England

Post Friday, 29th April 2011, 14:29

Re: New Race: Golem

Satiation:

My first thoughts on seeing this thread were "a race that doesn't need to eat that's not evil or undead! That could be fun!". Then I saw this and groaned. Item consumption is an annoying gimmick, I feel. Flavor wise, I see no reason the artificial animation and repair spells binding a golem together can't be self sustaining the same way the ones keeping most our undead are (throwing out the mechanical fuel requiring engine entirely for pure chem magic). Also, I absolutely hate your inverse speed to satiation relation- it makes stuffing yourself a no brainer (unless you wanna starve into slowness for Chie) and doubly punishes you if you can't find food. Vampire hunger can be tedious to manage, but at least there are interesting choices to be made, and advantages to both ends of the spectrum.

Potions: Two ideas to justify quaffing.

a) if you're made of clay that's not completely baked, you'd still be able to retain fluids. You could be constructed kind of like a bug- with hard rigid armor (baked clay), and softer, more malleable clay inside the shell, in your joints, palms of your hand, etc. In this case, you could just crush potions in your hands and osmose them through your palms! Of course, with this, you'd need some kind of water weakness- since your soft bits would be liable to turning to mud.
b) just pour it in your head! As your chem soaks up the fluid, you're effected by the magic of the potion. When it dries out, it wears off.

Scrolls:

This idea was totally unexpected, but I really like it. It's interesting and unique. I don't know if we can make it balanced or usable in game (we want to avoid making the ability to customize yourself too powerful, and avoid no brainier choices while still being interesting), but it's worth batting around.

Maybe some of these abilites could scale in effect with a skill? Say, evocations. The higher your evocations, the better the AC bonus you get from having an enchant armor in your noggin.

Proposed enchant <foo> effects seem to powerful to me. Poster child for scaling, methinks.
Random usefulness should totally amuse Xom.
Noise could theoretically provide some bonus to casting (cases where usually bad items are useful are interesting).
tt fear would need balancing. You could probably get around this by attaching an mp or hunger cost (if we stick with the race having hunger). Or again, by scaling the effect so it takes an investment to get it powerful.
You want to avoid duplicating amulet effects, I think, otherwise it makes choices too easy. Especially if these guys start with mutation resistance (inorganic).
I really like the scroll of fog idea- it's interesting tactically, and gives a reason to shout.
Getting unarmed attacks branded holy all the time definitely sounds overpowered, and borders on a no brainer for the endgame.

Actually, it might be interesting to tie some or all of the chem effects to shout. We could balance the strong ones (holy, silence, slaying, etc) by making them temporary effects you have to trigger- by shouting the words written in your head. Obviously there would be a cooldown- we could use the existing breath mechanism. It provides a cost to using the abilities (giving away your position), makes the usually dangerous tt tactically useful in some situations, and ties to your flavor (big booming voices).

Aptitudes:

What size are these guys? In order to wear armor, they'd have to be medium I suppose. Interesting as most constructs are usually portrayed as huge- shimpy 1-1 statues are not what you expect. Besides, we do have a lot of races stuck in robes only territory already...

I'd think Golems should have some positive in invocations. They are powered by belief, aren't they? (at least, if all their power comes from the chem. If you leave the item processing engine in...).
Practically being devices themselves, golems should definitely have good evocations, so keep that.
I would think being made of clay, golems would have both strong connects to earth and transmutations (+2 or +3 at least). Some connection to fire as well (+1 or +2). Ice could go either way- either we say water and golems don't mix (my clay! it's melting!), or we remember that clay comes from riverbeds, and needs to have some wetness to work with it. Being artificial creatures themselves, they might show an affinity for summoning or creating others (+1 to necro / sum). Not sure flavor wise why they should get bonuses in conjurations, hexes, tloc.

Gods:

I would think that Zin should love these guys. Incapable of mutation, with a booming, tireless voice to preach to the masess? That's what Zin's about. I mean, sure, there's not much reason from the player perspective to go golem of Zin- you already have the more useful resistances He provides, and cure all mutations is pointless, but that's no reason to make the combo restricted.

You don't need to special case corpse eating gods just beacuse golems don't eat meat. The vegetarian and mummy races already get away with this.

Chie. As written, your golems could starve themselves for slowness and to do devastating slouches. Personally, I would just do away with eating entirely, and the gimmicky speed mechanic too, letting Chie and ponderousness work as normal.

Death:

If they're sentient, they should leave ghosts (do undead player characters not leave ghosts?). And if golems get to explode, player mummies should get death curses, just for laughs.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Friday, 29th April 2011, 15:52

Re: New Race: Golem

@mageykun
thanks for feedback.
if Go would be hungerless they going to be much like mummy, methinks. item eating can be cool if done right.
Maybe you are right about slowness mechanick - there is no need to overcomplicate it. Base speed can be below average and that is it.
I like better b) potion explanation.
I am going to disagree about scroll effects scaling with evo - this will make it no brainer to train. in my opinion, if some(all?) scrolls need gradient rise in power, it should be binded to char Xl.
Yeah, enchant scrolls should have more balanced bonuses - I just do not have right "feel"with number crunching for formulas.
Agreed that effects should not overlap with jewelery but i was out of ideas at a time.
They very tall by human standarts (2-2.3 meters) but even plate mail would fit on them. So there is no need to have another robe-only race.
I dont like elemental stereotype with Go. Humans made of meat but it does not make them better at necro or transmutation, so why apply this rules to Go?
Terracota is burnt clay so there should not be wet parts at all.
They do not leave a ghost because they do not have a "soul". Undead indeed do not leave ghosts.
Agree with just for laugh part. It would be fun for both mummy and golem
User avatar

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 811

Joined: Monday, 31st January 2011, 23:19

Post Friday, 29th April 2011, 15:59

Re: New Race: Golem

Is it so bad to have a hungerless character that's not undead?
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Friday, 29th April 2011, 16:03

Re: New Race: Golem

Its just duplicating and also I would really like to try playing with very different food clock type. Maybe it is just me
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1459

Joined: Sunday, 19th December 2010, 05:45

Location: New England

Post Friday, 29th April 2011, 16:28

Re: New Race: Golem

If we ditch the hunger slowing, I could go either way with having to eat items. I mean, personally, it's not what I would prefer, but it could be made to work. I suppose we may not have sufficient drawbacks to justify foodlessness. I mean, hungerless, rPois, rMut, rRot, armor, and racial ablilites? It is a lot to get with very little tradeoff (mummies on the other hand, lose potions, and are flammable and dispel-able). At the very least, these guys are gonna need a lot of poor aptitudes and slow leveling to compensate.

One idea I've had before: an artificial race with a limited power source, that's running down. No way to stop it. The only thing that buys you more time is to obtain powerful magical artifacts- like runes and the orbs (one time contact charge- no eating necessary). Although, that could very easily be more frustrating than item eating.

I suggested evocations since it was the only existing skill that might logically have anything to do with the chem powers. It's not a great fit I grant. Scaling with level could work too, though I like it when players have to make a conscious choice to distribute xp towards something to make it useful. Personally, I'd love it if there was a skill we could train to increase effectiveness of racial abilities and mutations. That would be perfect for this.

We don't need pluses in necro or sum, but I would definitely go with good to great earth and transmutations. Just seems natural. 2s in all the elements does seem a little too generous, actually.

Possible recommended job choices? I'd choose monk, priest, earth elementalist (natural for a statue), transmuter (staute form golem! Maybe even special case it somehow, like draconian dragon forms. Stoneskin seems annother must), artificer, berzerker?, healer?.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Monday, 21st February 2011, 15:57

Location: South Carolina

Post Friday, 29th April 2011, 16:40

Re: New Race: Golem

What if Golems gained satiation from inserting a new scroll, and not from absorbing enchanted items? Then hunger would give you pressure to change scrolls even when you like the effect of the current one. And there would be more of a reason to use the less powerful ones.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 44

Joined: Thursday, 7th April 2011, 12:24

Post Friday, 29th April 2011, 17:12

Re: New Race: Golem

IMHO, these should have DD-like damage reduction, and no normal healing at all - machines are much sturdier, but they can't repair themself, you need spare parts for that.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 25

Joined: Tuesday, 8th February 2011, 22:54

Post Friday, 29th April 2011, 17:35

Re: New Race: Golem

Cool concept Curio and similar to one I've been thinking about a lot recently. Consider the following brainstorms:

1. Eating stones instead of food(or items). Perhaps they have no food clock and don't regenerate but instead scarf down stones for 1:1 HP gain? Maybe eating a stone grants temporary regeneration to regain HP? In combination with DD-like damage reduction this could work.

2. Maybe instead of being a sentient golem the golem is remotely-controlled by a Wizard outside the dungeon (the player sitting at his PC). When the golem is reduced to 0 HP he doesn't die but instead becomes "uncontrolled" (this is how a golem becomes a "player ghost" (you see an uncontrolled golem formerly controlled by Curio)). You could still use the scroll mechanic.

3. Maybe the scroll is equipped in the head slot in lieu of a helmet?

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1611

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 21:54

Post Friday, 29th April 2011, 17:57

Re: New Race: Golem

This feels like it tries to roll too many fancy extra mechanics (consuming magic items for satiation, non-living resistances, scroll effects) into a single race, to me. Some of them do sound interesting but I'd rather see just one or two good mechanics that are well fleshed-out and thought about. I'd probably say that the scroll effects themselves are also just a bit of an over-complex idea - so if I had to suggest one mechanic to drop in order to focus on the others, it'd be that one. :P

A couple of random thoughts: I don't see Zin having a problem with non-living creatures. Yredelemnul, however, now explicitly hates artificial beings (as they're "neither truly alive nor subject to death or undeath") so definitely wouldn't accept their worship. And non-living monsters are immune to torment and negative energy, it seems like it'd be hard to handwave that away and have a golem race not be.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Friday, 29th April 2011, 20:09

Re: New Race: Golem

The concept is too convoluted and needs serious revision. I could fancy having a golem species in Crawl. My two cents: we could really need another slow species, and golems would be a nice fit. Obviously, their perk should be something completely different from stealth (plus innate ranged attack) of nagas.
Variable movement speed in a species is probably not so good: speed is just too good. We tried variable regeneration rate with vampires and I am myself not fully convinced that the system is as interesting as it should be. It'd be even harder to get right with speed. (Don't discuss vampires here, please. If you want to do so, open a new thread.)

Zzz

User avatar

Halls Hopper

Posts: 63

Joined: Tuesday, 8th February 2011, 19:02

Post Saturday, 14th May 2011, 17:16

Re: New Race: Golem

I thought I came up with an interesting idea here:

Very slow mana regeneration plus an innate ability to recharge self with magic points, like food.
How does 33% the normal regeneration speed, and 1 point of mana = 100 satiation sound? Ideas?
Of course this means in any safe area the golem can get to max satiation, so perhaps cap it at full, and/or shorten the distance between starving and full. And for added flavour change the hungry-full descriptions to empty - drained - (blank as is normal satiation) - energized.
No starvation death, but massive speed handicaps. Good for chei worshippers. Explained with: "Your magical core begins to absorb ambient energies." upon empty satiation.
Additionally, glow/noise at energized?
weakened spellpower at empty?
No resist torment/negative energy, having a life force of a magical sort?

The unusual stuff the race already has is good enough, so the whole scroll thing should be weak effects in my opinion, or maybe tossed out.
I really like the idea of a race that is good with armour and some spell skills. Odd combos are fun :D

Just throwing this out there: maybe their mana bar *is* their food clock, and it is just extra long, and regenerates slowly. Now that would make an interesting spellcaster. Perhaps any kind of action depletes the "batteries".
Tab tab tab tab x2
you die... ...wait what?
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Saturday, 14th May 2011, 21:09

Re: New Race: Golem

Zzz wrote:I thought I came up with an interesting idea here:

Very slow mana regeneration plus an innate ability to recharge self with magic points, like food.
How does 33% the normal regeneration speed, and 1 point of mana = 100 satiation sound? Ideas?
Of course this means in any safe area the golem can get to max satiation, so perhaps cap it at full, and/or shorten the distance between starving and full. And for added flavour change the hungry-full descriptions to empty - drained - (blank as is normal satiation) - energized.
No starvation death, but massive speed handicaps. Good for chei worshippers. Explained with: "Your magical core begins to absorb ambient energies." upon empty satiation.
Additionally, glow/noise at energized?
weakened spellpower at empty?
No resist torment/negative energy, having a life force of a magical sort?

The unusual stuff the race already has is good enough, so the whole scroll thing should be weak effects in my opinion, or maybe tossed out.
I really like the idea of a race that is good with armour and some spell skills. Odd combos are fun :D

Just throwing this out there: maybe their mana bar *is* their food clock, and it is just extra long, and regenerates slowly. Now that would make an interesting spellcaster. Perhaps any kind of action depletes the "batteries".

You duplicate some of my ideas, which I admit, not very good for implementation. Other your ideas counters my image of a golem. See, I have this concept of a specie that I think is more or less solid, and watering it down into amorphous substance by so many "maybe" not going to help much. From the out view of this thread we should consider toning down crazy ideas, not adding more silliness.


* Slowness tied to hunger is bad design. Golem just slower all the time. Perhaps as fast as naga.

* Scroll idea should be scrathed out. It is, maybe could be interesting but it's pain in the ass to code and balance. And after all it's too much of a gimmick for a one race - no other race have some similar widespread mechanic like this.

*Hungerless VS Item consumption. I for one, like Item consumption food clock. But as some mentioned, having hungerless not undead also could be interesting(and much easier to implement). Main problem that arises from it that Golem becomes very unbalanced - no need to eat + many-many good resistances. So it's either well balanced item eating or well balanced drawback to compensate all the bonuses.

* Agree with Marvin about Gods preferences. Zin probably won't be bothered by Golems, but Yred will be.

*Also, as was mentioned - torment, negative energy and pain immunity should be applied.

Which brings me back to drawing board with adding more drawbacks to Golem specie.
So I have two ways to counter:
1) Total inability to use magic (N/A in all schools and Spellcasting)
Pros: Handicaps Golem pretty seriously - maybe enough to counter all other pluses.
Cons: Makes Golem pretty narrow in background choices, considering that they are not very stealthy and nimble for ranged (this last part may be reconsidered - better aptitudes for crossbows, throwing).

2)No natural regeneration. HP gained from eating items (it works both with Hungerless or Item consumption variants)
Pros: Obviously, harder to regain HP. Will add micromanagement of item consumption just to stay alive.
Cons: Partially duplicates DD's gimmick, with an exception that HP can be regained other than Healing pots and wans and what-not.

P.S. Also, I'm going to edit first post some time later just to shape the general idea more up to date.

Zzz

User avatar

Halls Hopper

Posts: 63

Joined: Tuesday, 8th February 2011, 19:02

Post Sunday, 15th May 2011, 01:41

Re: New Race: Golem

@ Curio: Its a discussion page of course some ideas will overlap or contradict each other... When you say you have a very specific idea of what a golem will be, you mean others can't add to it? If the devs put it in game, it probably won't come out exactly as you imagined.
(Please note I am not trying to flame you, its sounds a little like you were annoyed with my suggestion)
Also, please tell what of my idea is crazy or silly. I thought that it was simpler than an items for food mechanic. Items for food *could* work, but I see that as very hard to balance.
Vampires have undead bonuses/penalties tied to hunger, so why can't we tie slowness to hunger? (although yes, vamps are rather confusing)

With mana for food, you make the decision between spellcasting/invocations or staying at normal speed; which seperates it from the mummy, since with slow mana regen you won't be spamming firestorms. The spell hunger would still apply so if you did, you'd be moving like a proper statue after long :D Channeling might need to be weakened for golems, like regeneration is with undead. Its not a completely revolutionary idea. (Now, felids are waaay out in left field)
You did say in another post you wanted a different kind of food clock; and with this you don't die like a spriggan who couldn't find the Hive. But I guess for a randart eater the Hall of Blades is their Hive.

*In my opinion* Handing out the resistances of the undead without the penalties is unbalancing.
I do like the scrolls-for-effects idea. But they shouldn't be too strong, is all.
Suppose for a moment there was no scrollheadedness and item eating:
Pros
undead resistances
good armor/melee apt
some good magic skills apt
passive AC / damage shaving
resist poison
resist electricity
magic resistance lvl 1
Cons
poor stealth/dodging/ranged apt
no glove/boot slots
possibly no potions
huge exp penalty 140-160
some gods barred

I re-read your post to make sure I didn't miss anything. It appears there are more pros than cons. I like the idea of no natural health regeneration, but that is Deep Dwarf territory isn't it? We could say the magic device can generate new clay, considering other oddities in the dungeon like electric golems made of... electricity? The laws of physics aren't necessary for a well balanced player race ;)
As for barring all magic, don't we have Trog for that?
I think the mutation immunity could be toned down to mutation resistance lvl 1 or 2.
So you grew horns? I guess they're clay horns. But still horns. Zin is the go-to guy for mutation immunity on a living character.
Barring a few gods isn't a bad idea for this race. No disagreement on that point.

Heres another new idea to add to the mix:
We could say the golem's clay was magically enchanted to mimic normal flesh, and have it be soft clay. (so no damage shaving) but leave the passive AC untouched.
Electric attacks interfere with your magical engine. (no Relec)
(not trying to be redundant) Your soul is infused with magic, but a soul all the same. (no undead resist)
140-160 exp penalty is a big drawback, and shouldn't just be an excuse to make wild new player races.
I suggest 130 exp penalty and the follwing aptitudes so long as they aren't unbalancing.
fighting +2
shbl -3
lbl -1
axes -1
m&f 0
plrms -1
staves -2
unarmed 0
bows -1
xbows 0
throwing -1
slings -2
armor +4
dodging -3
stealth -3 (Not a good apt, but hey; they don't sneeze at the worst possible moment being a golem :D) so not -5, maybe even -2
shields 0
stabbing -3
t&d 0
spellcasting 2 (I differ on flavour; their soul is inseparably fused to a magical force, and therefore they are decent mages)
conj -1
hexes 0
charms 0
summoning -1
necromancy -1
tloc -2
tmut +3
fire 0
ice 0
air -2
earth +2
poison 0
evocations +3
invocations 0
Lastly; for pure flavour or possible gameplay effects, I would like to "level up" to iron / steel / diamond / etc. That's a cool idea.
*playername* the *title*
DIAMOND GOLEM of *god* -- cool.
I would very much like to see golems come into the game, in whole or in part. If any of y'all feel one of my ideas is far fetched or unbalanced please, PLEASE explain!
You have reached level 21!
Your body hardens into DIAMONDS!
Pure awesome.
By the way that golem picture above is really awesome, too.
PS. I tried to be thorough with my ideas and constructive with my criticisms. Phew I feel like I wrote a book :|
Tab tab tab tab x2
you die... ...wait what?

Snake Sneak

Posts: 123

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 14:47

Post Sunday, 15th May 2011, 01:46

Re: New Race: Golem

How about giving the golem a different unique drawback.

Because the golem is a construct it can't heal in any way, but it has a natural magic force field that protects it from harm.

The character has a permanent Guardian shield (as the amulet), all healing effects heal magic instead of hps, so potions of healing heal magic, god abilities heal magic etc. Regeneration effects magic instead of hp. The race has high natural magic growth, starting with a bonus of 4 mp and getting to 50 at level 27 no matter what the characters spellcasting/evocations/invocations is, but 50 is the maximum amount of magic possible, not including rings .
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Sunday, 15th May 2011, 15:04

Re: New Race: Golem

ok. I will elaborate my dislike of some ideas.
Zzz wrote:Very slow mana regeneration plus an innate ability to recharge self with magic points, like food.How does 33% the normal regeneration speed, and 1 point of mana = 100 satiation sound? Ideas?Of course this means in any safe area the golem can get to max satiation, so perhaps cap it at full, and/or shorten the distance between starving and full. And for added flavour change the hungry-full descriptions to empty - drained - (blank as is normal satiation) - energized.

Too complex. In par with my scroll idea, which, I admit should be tossed out.

Zzz wrote:No starvation death, but massive speed handicaps. Good for chei worshippers. Explained with: "Your magical core begins to absorb ambient energies." upon empty satiation.

Counter arguments was stated by dpeg already and I agree with him - it's needles to overcomplicate such thing as movement speed.

Zzz wrote:No resist torment/negative energy, having a life force of a magical sort?

Actually, they do have torment/negative energy immunity because they artificial. At least in-game golems totally unaffected by such effects and this would be too much of a gap between player golem and monster golem.

Zzz wrote:The unusual stuff the race already has is good enough, so the whole scroll thing should be weak effects in my opinion, or maybe tossed out.I really like the idea of a race that is good with armour and some spell skills.

Must be tossed out unfortunately.
As for armored caster - it's still unlikely - heavy armor inhibits casting on a very large scale, so aptitudes won't help much.
Also, I'm still in favor of inability to use magic at all. See below.

Zzz wrote:Just throwing this out there: maybe their mana bar *is* their food clock, and it is just extra long, and regenerates slowly. Now that would make an interesting spellcaster. Perhaps any kind of action depletes the "batteries".

Pain the ass to balance this sort of thing - not much easier than item consumption.

Zzz wrote:With mana for food, you make the decision between spellcasting/invocations or staying at normal speed; which seperates it from the mummy, since with slow mana regen you won't be spamming firestorms.

You know what else will prevent hungerless spam-casting of firestorms? Inability to use magic. Because if golems would be hungerless - they will be played almost exclusively like tough casters.

Zzz wrote:You did say in another post you wanted a different kind of food clock

Yes, and only viable ideas I see right now out of many is Item consumption (my pick) and Hungerless (mageykun's idea). And right now I'm leaning more to hungerless idea. Much easier to implement, but also must be countered by inability to cast spells. Or else, once again - tough mummies!

Zzz wrote:Suppose for a moment there was no scrollheadedness and item eating:Pros/Cons

MR can be removed without any excuse. No potions is not a solution - halved is just right. Too much of a mummy copycat already. Some gods barred is not very convincing Con - Demonspawns feeling just fine without some goody Gods.

Zzz wrote:I like the idea of no natural health regeneration, but that is Deep Dwarf territory isn't it? We could say the magic device can generate new clay
So what? Bloodless vampires also don't have natural regeneration. In addition I proposed alternate and new way to regenerate lost HP - different from DD's.

Zzz wrote:As for barring all magic, don't we have Trog for that?

As for Deep Dwarf's passive magic mapping, don't we have Azhenzari for that?
As for Regeneration spell, don't we have Trog's hand for that?
As for high-tier summoning spells, don't we have Makhleb and TSO for that?
The list can go on and on...
Anyway, in Trog's case you can abandon him in mid-game and become a very proficient hybrid with some species.(SpBE I'm looking at you)
With Golem you do not have such luxury - it's only scrolls from now on.

Zzz wrote:I think the mutation immunity could be toned down to mutation resistance lvl 1 or 2. So you grew horns? I guess they're clay horns. But still horns.
"I guess they're clay horns"
Well, I will not even comment on that. Just going to say that rMut is in no way avoidable. The only way to counteract is to add some kind of negative effect when mutations applied to Golem. Not gonna throw ideas here - need consideration.

Zzz wrote:We could say the golem's clay was magically enchanted to mimic normal flesh, and have it be soft clay. (so no damage shaving) but leave the passive AC untouched.

It's burnt clay. I never intended golem to have both damage shaving and AC. I lean more to passive average AC boost and leave it at that.

Zzz wrote:Electric attacks interfere with your magical engine. (no Relec)

This one actually plausible way to avoid rElec immunity. Problem is, that clay is a bad conductor and electricity just will not get to power source through it. Also, in-game golems immune to it as far as i know and making player-golem not immune is quite a contradiction.

Zzz wrote:140-160 exp penalty is a big drawback, and shouldn't just be an excuse to make wild new player races.I suggest 130 exp penalty and the follwing aptitudes so long as they aren't unbalancing.

Actually, it isn't. Skills are more valuable. You can be lvl 23 in the end-game but with skills better than some 27's have due to massive draining suffering.
I'm not going to comment aptitudes right now, because even general concept not shaped properly right now. Only thing I might add that aptitudes should be very toned down, even for melee (troll and ogre maluses).

Zzz wrote:Lastly; for pure flavour or possible gameplay effects, I would like to "level up" to iron / steel / diamond / etc. That's a cool idea.

Well, sorry, but this one makes me twitchy and annoyed. If it have no gameplay usability it is quite redundant. Also, flavor-wise what is the reasoning behind this transformations? Any one that i can think of is very far-fetched to be sensible. In my very first post i already stated why I don't like this "material" golems. There is already one in the wiki I think. It's as unreasonable for golem like if human became made out of wood/clay/stone/iron/etc. as he leveled up.

Lastly, I'm sorry if I offended you in some way in previous/this post but I will explain why I reacted so harshly in the first place.
That is not because I think that "others can't add to my very specific idea of what a golem will be". The more modest ideas are out there - the more chances it could be implemented. I don't care if golem would be not exactly how I imagine it - close enough is good enough. But when there are so many silly, contradicting to what previously was proposed and very complex to grasp ideas out there, credibility of a proposal falls down drastically in eyes of devs that may consider its implementation.

Zzz

User avatar

Halls Hopper

Posts: 63

Joined: Tuesday, 8th February 2011, 19:02

Post Sunday, 15th May 2011, 20:08

Re: New Race: Golem

Very well argued. I think what the golem needs is play testing to feel out what is weak/complicated and what is overpowered.

There must a way to have a living hungerless race that isn't spell restricted ! I hate using the undead !

As for the magic thing, how about a lot of magic dampening for most schools save earth/trmut? They're a magically created life form thinga ma jig, I would be sad to see them barred from magic :( I mean, come on - Stone Form? Stoneskin? obvious synergy.

Also for the Pros and Cons *in my opinion* it should be not too distant from humans, like trolls or spriggans. I see it as a fairly normal humanoid with a new hunger mechanic and some resists, plus passive AC. Loses some gear slots, and you know the rest. The less flexible the race is, the less I play them. I would like to see them have a good bit of difficulty learning in most skills without a massive exp penalty. It just don't jive with me L O L On that note, shouldn't the exp penalty be more significant that skill aptitudes? Any race that has negative exp should have buffs that last them to the mid game, but the slow levels make the endgame harder am I right? And vice versa, Human - Kobold - Halfling - Hill Orc should be proportionately weaker in the early game, but the fast level gain makes the end easier? That's how I *think* it should work. Not that it is that way, should be, or ever will.

I want an armored spellcaster race ! This is tangential, but Armor skill should negate the spellcasting penalty of most armors. Say at level 27 you can cast normally out of -7 EV armors. Then it wouldn't be such a bummer when all my xp goes into armor when I rest; even when its turned off !
Shields skill reduces spell penatlies, so why not armor as well? Its not as if that would weaken dodging any. The only good reason to pump strength is for armor right now. Some of the HP from fighting skill should move to strength, being strong makes you durable - would make sense. Fighting wouldn't be such a no brainer then. The three stats are a condensation of the classic six: Strength, dexterity, intellect, charisma, wisdom, and constitution. Con would normally determine base HP, but It appears that the Strength stat is the condensed form of Con and Str. So it makes sense, to me anyways. Wis - Int - Cha are merged into Int for crawl. I think Dex was always its own stat. But I digress...

Also if any of this stuff was already suggested or thought of by someone else, (I'm certain it was) then sorry. :|

I love the idea that they are vulnerable to lrd/shatter/disintegration !

I don't think using the classic six would be too bad, but I'm betting the devs had a reason for three from the very beginning that I missed.

PS. I'm starting to enjoy this whole, "contributing to the game discussion" thing !
Tab tab tab tab x2
you die... ...wait what?

Zzz

User avatar

Halls Hopper

Posts: 63

Joined: Tuesday, 8th February 2011, 19:02

Post Sunday, 15th May 2011, 21:34

Re: New Race: Golem

Which is why I never noticed it ! I never ever train armor for any class on purpose, even mountain dwarfs. Magic is just so much better than being a tank in the game's currrent state. Say if golems were disallowed magic, it would improve the melee game with a nice strong race. Still that doesn't seem to really address the real problem: The massive usefulness gap between mages and warriors. There's that topic on starting spellbook nerfs, but rather than SIGNIFICANTLY weaken them, nerf them a wee bit and buff up armor, etc. a wee bit.

Is it me or does DCSS development follow a pattern of reverse power creep? lol
Tab tab tab tab x2
you die... ...wait what?
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Sunday, 15th May 2011, 21:43

Re: New Race: Golem

Zzz wrote:I think what the golem needs is play testing

Huh? How about we design it and code it first?

Zzz wrote:But I digress...

Way too much. This isn't the thread of random golem ideas. Curio did the effort of putting together a decent design for a new species, with a strong theme. Let's keep the comments on it.

Curio, I think this is shapping up, I'm starting to like it. I think no magic is a fitting theme for a golem. Being a non-living species, we shouldn't be shy of making it really different. Innate rP, rElec, rN+++, rMut and torment immunity is a pretty strong package, it needs a huge nerf and no magic is one. Monster clay golem also have rC+ and rF+. But if we want consistency, it might be better to remove it from the monster than giving it to the player golem. Would differentiate golems among themselves and make sense. Clay is more susceptible to extreme temperatures than iron or crystal.
Monster golems are also magic immune. If the race need a buff, it's also something we can consider.

I think eating magical items can work for nutrition. Maybe it can also replace potions: eating wands heal you and/or provide other buffs. With no access to spells and poor throwing and launcher aptitudes, wands are valuable for their ranged attacks. You have to choose between eating or zapping them. HP restored and buff duration depend on wand charges.

For the toughness, I'd say good HP (Ce) and some AC.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Halls Hopper

Posts: 64

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 11:51

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 07:31

Re: New Race: Golem

Comment on the idea specifically- I like it. It has a strong, thematic vision. It's not the vision I would have for a golem, but that's ok, it's not my idea (I'm more influenced by other golem concepts, where the idea of a golem can be changed by what goes into it, that it could grow by absorbing items). Your vision I can get on board with, but I would like if you could be clearer simply from a thematic standpoint what does leveling up mean to a golem? With living creatures we grow and mature over time and our bodies reflect that- how does a terra cotta warrior reflect that?

Some meta comments on the conversation- if a race idea doesn't introduce new mechanics it's commented as being boring. If a race idea does, it's commented as being convoluted. While I respect the amount of work it takes to introduce new mechanics to an established game (both for the developers and for new players), I think solid, well fleshed out ideas with clear vision lend gravitas to the game. Obviously, if Curio doesn't code it, it won't be entirely his vision, but I don't want to discourage him into being meager or uninspiring. Even if you think your idea would be hard to implement or seems grandiose, I'd rather have it un-watered down and hope that it's clarity and intrigue spark the interest of a developer to make something equally intriguing (even if it's not that precise thing). No idea is going to survive the transition from being written down to being coded and playtested entirely intact, so start big.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 09:07

Re: New Race: Golem

Hushed wrote:With living creatures we grow and mature over time and our bodies reflect that- how does a terra cotta warrior reflect that?

I wouldn't worry about that. Undead don't grow and mature either.

Hushed wrote:Some meta comments on the conversation- if a race idea doesn't introduce new mechanics it's commented as being boring. If a race idea does, it's commented as being convoluted.

Every single idea is going to be dismissed as boring by some people. It's the silliest argument anyway, since fun doesn't come from features on their own, but how they interact together to make the game. And it's also very subjective.
I have no problem with daring ideas and brand new mechanisms. They just need to be realistic. Not only from a coding point of view, but they also need to be understandable by the players. Try to imagine how you would document it in-game. If you can't, then maybe it's "too convoluted".
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Halls Hopper

Posts: 64

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 11:51

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 09:39

Re: New Race: Golem

Oh, I completely agree from the point of view of a developer, but my point is that very little of those compromises will involve this forum. Realistically, developers will look at the idea and, if it sparks a positive response, one will probably adopt it. There will be a discussion of implementation constraints, thematic constraints, etc. Then the actual work begins, it'll morph into something the coder groks and likes, compromises will happen based on miscommunication, playtesting and shiny new ideas. Probably none of that will play out in this thread, so the reality of those compromises and that further polishing shouldn't be a hamper to just the pure concept in Curio's head.

I mean, even what's being described as convoluted sounds thematic and interesting to me. If a coder figured out how to implement it, polished it up and someone wrote how to grok it clearly and concisely would it really be turned away for not being generic enough?

EDIT:I don't want to come across poorly about anyone's point of view here, I just wanted to be encouraging of the excitement and enthusiasm a cool idea can bring and not dampen by second guessing for possible future compromises. There's no way to accurately predict what the compromises will be.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 09:52

Re: New Race: Golem

galehar wrote:Curio, I think this is shapping up, I'm starting to like it. I think no magic is a fitting theme for a golem. Being a non-living species, we shouldn't be shy of making it really different. Innate rP, rElec, rN+++, rMut and torment immunity is a pretty strong package, it needs a huge nerf and no magic is one.

Nice to hear it. Magic prohibition makes unavailable too much of backgrounds though, and least we can do is make hunter background playable by buffing either throwing or crossbows(mechanical theme etc.). In case of throwing blowgun should be prohibited, because Golem throwing Javelines/rocks is acceptable, but golem blowing out needles is not - golems do not have organs to use blowgun properly.
galehar wrote:Monster clay golem also have rC+ and rF+. But if we want consistency, it might be better to remove it from the monster than giving it to the player golem. Would differentiate golems among themselves and make sense. Clay is more susceptible to extreme temperatures than iron or crystal.

Even though player golem is not exact variant of monster golem (burnt clay - terracota vs raw clay. thematic differentiation in par with hill orcs and cave orcs) they do share very similar properties and I agree on rC+ and rF+ - player shouldn't have at least those and monster will not be crippled too much by removing this resistances.
galehar wrote:Monster golems are also magic immune. If the race need a buff, it's also something we can consider.

Although it can be risen gradually as Golem levels up. Like Naga and Draconians receiving their AC by gaining XL, Golem can gain MR levels until it immune at 27 XL. Anyway it's the last thing among any other feats of golem that need to be buffed right now.
galehar wrote:I think eating magical items can work for nutrition.

I'm glad, that this idea can be implemented. This removes need in hungerless Golem which makes it more balanced.
galehar wrote:Maybe it can also replace potions: eating wands heal you and/or provide other buffs. With no access to spells and poor throwing and launcher aptitudes, wands are valuable for their ranged attacks. You have to choose between eating or zapping them. HP restored and buff duration depend on wand charges.

Personally, I'm against removing potions completely. Halved effect and restriction on some pots seems fair to me - otherwise it leans toward mummy on another aspect as well.
Wand idea have it's potential but players will end up carrying with them all wands they found, or make stashes every couple levels and run back and forth constantly.
I imagined item consumption more in this way(if we consider Golem having another drawback - no natural regeneration, which also feels thematic):
Nutrition gained only from enchanted items e.g. armor with +1 enchant or above, or weapon with at least +1 in either accuracy or damage and above.
The more enchanted item - the more nutrition Golem will get from it.
Ego and randart items give set amout of nutrition for every property on top of enchantment level.
From eating +12, +6 sabre of Purpose {pain, +Rage} Golem will get nutrition from each level of enchant + same bonus nutrition for both pain brand and +Rage. There is no need to overcomplicate and give different amount of nutrition for different item properties. Will it be SInv, *TELE, -TELE, reCurse or even +MUT each one will provide same amount of nutrition bonus. Naturally eating rF++ item will provide doubled bonus compared to rF+.
Same rules applied to jewelery. Even amulet of innacuracy will provide nutrition - it doesn't matter that it's properties not beneficial - it still have magic juice in it that makes it running. Considering that jewelery is more light weighted than armor and weapon, it would always be wiser to carry different kinds of jewelerry (especially randart)over cumbersome gear.
Books should not give nutrition.
Wands will give nutrition depending on it's charges left and value. Something like (nutrition gained = charges left * tier multiplier) Where tier multiplier is wand usefulness, so Magic dart will have 1, Wand of Cold 2-3, Wand of Healing, Speed or Invisibility around 6 or more.
Enchanted ammunition should give significantly less nutrition for each enchantment level and brands compared to normal weapon.
Nonrandarts can provide set huge amount of nutrition.
I'm not sure if it's worth it to apply negative effects to eating cursed items and items with summary negative enchant level.

Time needed to eat an item is calculated using it weight.
Small items up to 9 aum - 1 turn
Medium items from 10 to 19 aum - 2 turns
Large items from 20 up to 30 - 3 turns
Anything bigger should be prohibited for consumption. Even golem can't chew something big as he is.
(naturally, numbers are arbitrary at best)

Golem shouldn't have slow metabolism, I think, unless most items in dungeon will give a pretty small amount of nutrition.
On top of that, even though that Golems can eat anything at any time, they will never get more than satiated. So if you eat heavily enchanted randart when just Hungry - all excess nutrition will go to waste. You better snack on those +2 darts of frost next time.

Applies only if "no natural healing" drawback will be used:
Each item that gives nutrition also heals golem in this way or similar (HP gained = nutrition gained * (Max HP/5000))
In my formula 600 nutrition (choko for living creatures) will give 36 HP for Golem with 300 MaxHP and 6 for those with 50 MaxHP. 12% of total HP in both cases.
Amount of HP regained should be capped of course so that in case of unrandart consumption it will not heal Golem to full health.

galehar wrote:For the toughness, I'd say good HP (Ce) and some AC.

Completely agree.

minmay wrote:I don't like the idea of barring a species from using magic entirely, as it consigns them to just a few narrow builds.

And that's why i stated it as Cons for that idea. You have any alternate drawback to compensate resistances package? I'm gladly will hear it out.

Hushed wrote:but I would like if you could be clearer simply from a thematic standpoint what does leveling up mean to a golem? With living creatures we grow and mature over time and our bodies reflect that- how does a terra cotta warrior reflect that?

Why it should be reflected? Human characters do not grow significantly older over the time they get Orb of Zot. They just grow in power and experience. Same goes with Golems.

Hushed wrote:Obviously, if Curio doesn't code it, it won't be entirely his vision, but I don't want to discourage him into being meager or uninspiring.

You don't. I was inspiring with Scroll idea. But then realized that this is too much and tossed it out. No big loss there I guess.

Hushed wrote:just the pure concept in Curio's head.

I can easily shove my "pure concept" away if only it's details are replaced by something good, consistent and not contradictory to other features. I declined two my major standpoints on Golems already: slow movement scaling with hunger and scroll mechanic. Not counting many details. It's a work in progress so naturally there is going to be cuts.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 10:52

Re: New Race: Golem

Hushed wrote:Oh, I completely agree from the point of view of a developer, but my point is that very little of those compromises will involve this forum. Realistically, developers will look at the idea and, if it sparks a positive response, one will probably adopt it. There will be a discussion of implementation constraints, thematic constraints, etc. Then the actual work begins, it'll morph into something the coder groks and likes, compromises will happen based on miscommunication, playtesting and shiny new ideas. Probably none of that will play out in this thread, so the reality of those compromises and that further polishing shouldn't be a hamper to just the pure concept in Curio's head.

I strongly disagree. All our discussion mediums are public (dev wiki, mailing list and irc). If curio wants to be involved in the process, he can and he should be. Even if he doesn't code it, his idea needs someone to trust in it and carry it. And what's the point of neat ideas if you don't care about implementation, theme and balance? The point of this forum is to discuss ideas that we'd like to go in the game, not just dreaming about how an hypothetical perfect crawl could be.

Curio wrote:
galehar wrote:Maybe it can also replace potions: eating wands heal you and/or provide other buffs. With no access to spells and poor throwing and launcher aptitudes, wands are valuable for their ranged attacks. You have to choose between eating or zapping them. HP restored and buff duration depend on wand charges.

Personally, I'm against removing potions completely. Halved effect and restriction on some pots seems fair to me - otherwise it leans toward mummy on another aspect as well.
Wand idea have it's potential but players will end up carrying with them all wands they found, or make stashes every couple levels and run back and forth constantly.

How is it different than potion management? Wands are heavier, but golems are strong. I see it as a replacement for potions. If they eat magical items for nutrition, they can suck the magical energy (charges) out of wands for healing and buffs.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 11:13

Re: New Race: Golem

galehar wrote:How is it different than potion management? Wands are heavier, but golems are strong. I see it as a replacement for potions. If they eat magical items for nutrition, they can suck the magical energy (charges) out of wands for healing and buffs.


Frankly, it just seems a bit weird for me to grasp this. Also I'm not very sure how well it will be balanced. I mean, I have general concept of item consumption and gained nutrition - but I have no idea how wand mechanic can be implemented. Can you elaborate a bit more?

Each charge is like a potion or the whole wand is like one potion? Either way is the extreme on one scale - it's either too scarce of "potions" or too abundant.
I'm not even touching amount of work it needs to be done to make effect for every wand. I mean there is a wand of speed. But rather than eating it it's wiser just to use it. But what about levitation, experience, brilliance, agility, magic, might, resistance potions? There is no wand analog for those. And if, say, magic dart wand provided brilliance it would be very counter intuitive.

Also, how it's going to interact with "HP gained from nutrition"? Or you don't see this as a viable idea?
I suppose, you agree that golems should not have natural regeneration as another major drawback? I just don't want it to be another DD, hence alternate HP regain through eating.

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 11:58

Re: New Race: Golem

galehar wrote:How is it different than potion management? Wands are heavier, but golems are strong. I see it as a replacement for potions. If they eat magical items for nutrition, they can suck the magical energy (charges) out of wands for healing and buffs.

It's not different from potion management. And potions are already in the game, so why not use potions? People would have to learn and remember what each wand does when eaten by a golem, which is only one of many races. This is convoluted, and not like crawl at all. All species specialties so far are easy to grasp, the challenge is in learning how to best make use of them and get around the weaknesses. Various buffs from eating wands is not a good idea (in my opinion, of course).

Not being able to use magic limits available options and playing styles quite drastically already. So all consumables should be fully available if magic is forbidden. Additionally being able to eat wands is fine, but it should be kept very simple. One type of effect for all wands, with strength of the effect changing between weak and strong wands. If it's an elemental effect (eating a wand to temporarily brand your fists or provide a resistance for example) the element can depend on the wand too, but that's already pushing it. Please, keep it simple.

Of course there is a lot of danger that golems might be just like MDFi, but better. Generally I am not a big fan of not allowing magic. Magicless fighters are viable with the right aptitudes without any extra advantages (e.g. MDFi). So limiting a species to this playstyle, giving good armor and weapon aptitudes, and then providing extra advantages on top of the aptitudes is not optimal. Removing potions in return for the sweet resist package would differentiate golems from other non-casting non-Trog fighters. But I think limiting consumable options and replacing them with other consumable options is not a good way to do this. By the way, I don't have a better idea, I really am just complaining about this one. Unliving resists other than rP are mostly relevant late in the game, when not being able to use magic is harshest, and armor restrictions are a big problem starting midgame. So maybe this issue is not even that big.

Like I said, not a big fan of not allowing magic. This is just a restriction to a select few playstyles. It does not provide a disadvantage to playstyles that don't use magic, it just removes interesting options that having mostly bad magic aptitudes would allow.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 12:59

Re: New Race: Golem

Galefury wrote:Of course there is a lot of danger that golems might be just like MDFi, but better.

Even in a draft they already differ from dwarfs. Slow movement, item consumption. And dwarfs can learn at least a couple of utility spells in the mid/end-game unlike golems.

I'll add a few arguments for prohibiting magic as means of balance:
When combat moves will be added - playing golem would be just as fun as any other melee class.
And when long-lasting Evocation reform will be implemented, golems will become natural artificers (hm, is that an oxymoron?)

EDIT:
I will edit first post once again and will remove ideas/information that is not up to date. I'm sorry if this inconvenience those who answered to first post in any way.
Also, I will add new golem player dolls I made.

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 14:09

Re: New Race: Golem

Right, item consumption, slow movement and the armor restrictions would set them apart. Thanks for the reminder, it's easy to lose track of features in this thread. There's so much being discussed.

Like I said, prohibiting magic is not a major disadvantage to the builds you could actually play as a golem. Fighter, gladiator, artificer and religious backgrounds would be the only ones worth considering for recommendation with the current concept, all others would be unavailable or rather challenging due to aptitudes.

Due to bad dodging and good armor aptitude wearing heavy armor is the smart option (with your suggested aptitudes of +4 armor and -3 dodging, dodging would cost 3-4 times as much exp as armor). The main disadvantage of wearing heavy armor (hard to use magic) would also be gone. Monks in heavy armor generally don't work too well, as do light armor monks with -3 dodging. Berserkers cant berserk (berserker may be okay to recommend if there is no natural healing). Hunters would have bad aptitudes (although I saw the suggestion of giving them good throwing or crossbows), so they would be a rather challenging background. Assassin with bad stealth, dodging, and possibly no blowguns? Sounds hard. I'm not sure artificer is recommended for anyone, or worth recommending, but good evocations seems like a natural fit. Wanderer is never recommended afaik.

Healer may be nice without natural healing. Priest of Zin, hm, I don't know. Would Zin feed a golem? Also, with golems being already immune to mutations one of Zin's big perks would be useless. Death Knight would feel weird to me thematically, but seems okay. Not being able to haste your bone dragons is not cool, but whatever. Recommending Chaos Knight and Abyssal Knight would be a bit of a stretch IMO. Are they recommended for any species? I don't have access to crawl on this computer, so I cant check right now.

Most of the backgrounds that might be recommended benefit from magic if played with light armor. But that is strongly discouraged by the aptitudes you suggest. Also the backgrounds that are left all seem viable with heavy armor and no magic. Having mostly bad magic aptitudes instead of an outright ban would open up more backgrounds for the species and provide a lot of additional unusual options (kinda like MDFE), while not majorly benefiting the magicless playstyles that rely on religion and consumables to provide special effects. Also magic would be highly limited by the food mechanic.

About schools: baked terracotta implies some connection to earth and fire, and being magically animated could mean good hexes or charms (or even necromancy or summoning). Alternative: bad charms, because self-affecting magic interferes with the spells animating the golem. Also having bad spellcasting sounds fitting. Good aptitudes in some schools and evocations would also allow for fun with enhancer staves, which would be cool imo. Or hot/earthy in this case.

I repeat my point: with the right aptitudes playing without magic is viable and can be quite strong in a 3-rune game. Banning magic would force this playstyle on the golem race, eliminating interesting options, without being a major disadvantage for the playstyles that are still available. Strongly discouraging magic use by good armor and bad dodging apt, bad spellcasting, and bad apts in most schools would not change the magicless playstyle, but allow for additional interesting (and often quite challenging) options, letting more people have fun with the race. I'm thinking of unwon and general challenge play, and people who like making unusual playstyles work for them.

Aptitude tangent: giving golems good crossbow aptitude because those are mechanical devices would water down the flavor IMO, since the golem you propose is magically animated, not mechanically. This could be handwaved away by the golem's life force partially animating the crossbow, letting him use it like a part of its body. Good throwing would make sense with rocks (and possibly even large rocks), but small objects like darts that need to be precisely manipulated sound unfitting. Nevertheless in the interest of providing at least a little diversity golems should have one decent (0 or 1) ranged aptitude.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 14:21

Re: New Race: Golem

Galefury wrote:And potions are already in the game, so why not use potions?

Among the 29 potions in the game, 14 of them have absolutely no effect on golems. I'm counting decay (rRot) and degeneration (less obvious, but whatever). Make that 18 if golem is magic immune. Among the 11 left, 6 are situational, 2 are rare, and only 3 are used often. This is arbitrary, and you could argue about this classification. Please don't. My point is just that potions are less relevant for non-living species, and removing them doesn't change the balance that much, provided you give some form of healing.

Curio wrote:Each charge is like a potion or the whole wand is like one potion? Either way is the extreme on one scale - it's either too scarce of "potions" or too abundant.

We don't need to duplicate every single effect, we can just make up new ones. But as Galefury said, we have to keep it simple, so maybe mostly (only?) healing. I think no potions would strengthen the "non-living" theme. If a fully charged wand give as much HP as a !HW, it's certainly not too scarce. Wands are more common than !HW, but if they also have to use them to heal out of battle because they don't regen, it might be balanced. There's about 3 times as much potions as wands, and about 1 potion out of ten is HW. So you've got roughly 3 wands for 1 !HW.

Curio wrote:Also, how it's going to interact with "HP gained from nutrition"? Or you don't see this as a viable idea?
I suppose, you agree that golems should not have natural regeneration as another major drawback? I just don't want it to be another DD, hence alternate HP regain through eating.

No regeneration does seem fitting. We can differentiate from DD by using different sources of healing. Vampiric draining is already excluded but there's still Mahkleb. If they heal by eating items, maybe it's enough and they don't need a food clock on top of it. But the interface has to be really good or it would be horribly tedious. Most items just give a few HP so you use them to heal after battle. Only wands give enough HP to be usable during battle.

  Code:
No Effect
    Gain Strength
    Gain Dexterity
    Gain Intelligence
    Poison
    Porridge
    Water
    Strong Poison
    Berserk Rage
    Mutation
    Cure Mutation
    Blood
    Coagulated Blood
    Degeneration
    Decay

No effect if magic immune
    Slowing
    Paralysis
    Confusion
    Healing

Situational
    Brilliance
    Agility
    Levitation
    Invisibility
    Resistance
    Restore Abilities

Rare   
    Experience
    Magic

Good
    Heal Wounds
    Speed
    Might
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 14:46

Re: New Race: Golem

galehar wrote:Among the 29 potions in the game, 14 of them have absolutely no effect on golems. (...) My point is just that potions are less relevant for non-living species, and removing them doesn't change the balance that much, provided you give some form of healing.

Most of the potions without an effect on golems (thanks for making that list) have negative effects. This would greatly simplify the potion ID minigame (quaff everything, possibly try to ID !HW first), not make potions less relevant. This is a valid reason for disabling potions, but not a very good one IMO, and not at all what you said. Especially might, speed and resistance are extremely relevant, removing access to those would mean cutting down on options for escape or winning tight fights rather harshly. Loss of levitation without access to magic and loss of restore abilities without access to royal jellies are also not desirable IMO (although mummies do just fine with the second one).
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 16:19

Re: New Race: Golem

Galefury wrote:Right, item consumption, slow movement and the armor restrictions would set them apart. Thanks for the reminder, it's easy to lose track of features in this thread. There's so much being discussed.

That's why I edit first post. Should be more informative right now.
Galefury wrote:Healer may be nice without natural healing. Priest of Zin, hm, I don't know. Would Zin feed a golem? Also, with golems being already immune to mutations one of Zin's big perks would be useless.

I think Zin should feed him. He is a God after all and can satiate anyone who needs it. That perk is only usable once if I recall correctly? If so, it's not very of a loss.
Galefury wrote:Death Knight would feel weird to me thematically, but seems okay.

Actually they should be N/A. As someone stated before Yredemnul do not tolerate artificial things.
Galefury wrote:Recommending Chaos Knight and Abyssal Knight would be a bit of a stretch IMO. Are they recommended for any species?

Chaos Knight not recommended for anyone. Abyssal Knight - for 7 species. I think Xom would like new clay toy :)
Galefury wrote:Having mostly bad magic aptitudes instead of an outright ban would open up more backgrounds for the species and provide a lot of additional unusual options (kinda like MDFE), while not majorly benefiting the magicless playstyles that rely on religion and consumables to provide special effects.

I thought about it. Maybe giving abysmal aptitudes will be better instead. So that Warrior-Mage backgrounds would be playable with some effort, but all magical ones left only for true masochists.(aptitudes in Casting and schools around -4)
Galefury wrote:About schools: baked terracotta implies some connection to earth and fire...

It implies it in some D&D stereotypical sense maybe. Personally I try to avoid this connection. Think about it - humans made from flesh, but that's not making them more proficient in Transmutations or Necromancy. Why this silly rule must apply to Golem? In other words, not your body predefines what is your knowledge, but your mind.
Galefury wrote:I repeat my point: with the right aptitudes playing without magic is viable and can be quite strong in a 3-rune game. Banning magic would force this playstyle on the golem race, eliminating interesting options, without being a major disadvantage for the playstyles that are still available. Strongly discouraging magic use by good armor and bad dodging apt, bad spellcasting, and bad apts in most schools would not change the magicless playstyle, but allow for additional interesting (and often quite challenging) options, letting more people have fun with the race. I'm thinking of unwon and general challenge play, and people who like making unusual playstyles work for them.

I agree. It should be taken in consideration.

galehar wrote:We don't need to duplicate every single effect, we can just make up new ones. But as Galefury said, we have to keep it simple, so maybe mostly (only?) healing. I think no potions would strengthen the "non-living" theme. If a fully charged wand give as much HP as a !HW, it's certainly not too scarce. Wands are more common than !HW, but if they also have to use them to heal out of battle because they don't regen, it might be balanced. There's about 3 times as much potions as wands, and about 1 potion out of ten is HW. So you've got roughly 3 wands for 1 !HW.

Now, when you explained this I really beginning to like this idea. But as Galefury said it should be kept simple. I think only healing is the right choice. In this case it will be situations where Golem will be put in a dilemma: eat this wand to replenish 30%-50% HP or blast this foe in hope of destroying it. Eating a wand should be 1 turn action. I think, eating Healing wand instead of using it should be not beneficial.
One question though - Amount healed is proportional to charges left i suppose? If so, skilling up Evo at least to know how many charges left will be a good strategy.
galehar wrote:No regeneration does seem fitting. We can differentiate from DD by using different sources of healing. Vampiric draining is already excluded but there's still Mahkleb.

Healing by eating items is mandatory IMO. I don't want to play another race with no means of healing without pots/wand or specific God.
galehar wrote:But the interface has to be really good or it would be horribly tedious.

What do you mean by that? I thought as simple as "pressing "e" (your inventory shows up) you press corresponding letter for thing that you want to eat".
Add one more inscription for promting golem items and always promt when trying to eat equipped item.
galehar wrote:If they heal by eating items, maybe it's enough and they don't need a food clock on top of it.

Yeah, well, Galefury does have a point about total magic ban. If there's only very bad aptitudes applied instead of prohibit, food clock will be needed.
galehar wrote:Most items just give a few HP so you use them to heal after battle. Only wands give enough HP to be usable during battle.

That is the main reason Wands as healing tools can replace all potion consumption, which, I agree, not very thematic.

As I was proposing earlier, even if applied, magic immunity should not be from the start. At first only growing resistance until full immunity at 27XL.
Lack of healing and restore abilities potions makes Golem susceptible to same dangers as a mummy - confusion and stat drain death.
Lack of Levitation, Invisibility, Resistance while not so crucial also hinder a bit but can be emulated by other means or gained from items.
Experience, Speed and Might are acceptable loss due to balance.
We can count inability to consume potions as a drawback. Only problem I see here is that it overlaps with mummy theme.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 16:34

Re: New Race: Golem

Galefury wrote: Especially might, speed and resistance are extremely relevant, removing access to those would mean cutting down on options for escape or winning tight fights rather harshly. Loss of levitation without access to magic and loss of restore abilities without access to royal jellies are also not desirable IMO (although mummies do just fine with the second one).

Eh. ninja-ed :)
Might and speed loss is acceptable trade-off for other strong sides of a Golem IMO.
Resistances can be accumulated by items. Considering that most of them are innate you can concentrate on those you need the most (e.g. fire and ice).
As far as I know, there isn't any place where you can't progress game without Lev. Yes, you will miss some vaults until you find ring of Lev or randart but at the very least you can use scroll of blinking.
Restore abilities is tricky one. Ring of sustain ability will be very valuable for golem, because he have no other means of restoring lost stats other than time. In the other hand, 2 orange statues in LOS = Death.

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 16:55

Re: New Race: Golem

I don't think it's an acceptable trade-off for the strong sides. Golems are slow, and cant use magic (or are strongly discouraged from doing so), and don't regenerate naturally, so they already cant use many of the generic ways of getting out of a tight spot (running, pillar dancing and magic). Taking away some of the few remaining emergency options is bad IMO. Slowness and restricted potions do not mix well. Especially when you might have to eat your wands, which further cuts down on emergency options.

Edit: about this:
Curio wrote:
Galefury wrote:About schools: baked terracotta implies some connection to earth and fire...

It implies it in some D&D stereotypical sense maybe. Personally I try to avoid this connection. Think about it - humans made from flesh, but that's not making them more proficient in Transmutations or Necromancy. Why this silly rule must apply to Golem? In other words, not your body predefines what is your knowledge, but your mind.

Humans are not magical beings. What does a golem do when he walks around? He magically manipulates earth. What does a golem do when... you get the idea. I think a golem might know a thing or two about magically manipulating earth. Whether there is a fire connection depends on whether the terracotta is burned before or after animating the golem i guess. Probably before, it just seems more practical. But maybe the golem is only burned if it is meant for specific tasks (long term service, battle, anything that requires extra sturdiness), so it could be after animation in some cases. Anyway, having been subjected to intense heat and fire for a few hours might let you grasp fire magic more easily.

Further edit:
Healing from items has thematic issues: magical items refuel the magic engine, enemy attacks damage the clay shell. Whence the (instant) healing? The engine slowly repairing the shell at the cost of some energy seems more plausible. Fast metabolism and (normal speed) regeneration only when above satiated, slow metabolism and no regeneration when satiated or below, with instant healing only from wands seems more thematic. It's also a bit complicated and steps on vampires' toes, though, so whatever.

Edit 3: I just noticed the distinction between magical equipment and wands is just as inconsistent as instantly repairing the golem body by eating a magic sword, so scratch that.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 17:25

Re: New Race: Golem

Galefury wrote:Humans are not magical beings. What does a golem do when he walks around? He magically manipulates earth. What does a golem do when... you get the idea. I think a golem might know a thing or two about magically manipulating earth. Whether there is a fire connection depends on whether the terracotta is burned before or after animating the golem i guess. Probably before, it just seems more practical. But maybe the golem is only burned if it is meant for specific tasks (long term service, battle, anything that requires extra sturdiness), so it could be after animation in some cases. Anyway, having been subjected to intense heat and fire for a few hours might let you grasp fire magic more easily.

Ok. I have opinion different from yours but since it is affected by personal outview and not some ephemeral "facts about golems" I will not argue about that. Let's just leave it at that.

Galefury wrote:Healing from items has thematic issues: magical items refuel the magic engine, enemy attacks damage the clay shell. Whence the (instant) healing? The engine slowly repairing the shell at the cost of some energy seems more plausible. Fast metabolism and (normal speed) regeneration only when above satiated, slow metabolism and no regeneration when satiated or below, with instant healing only from wands seems more thematic. It's also a bit complicated and steps on vampires' toes, though, so whatever.

My imagination copes pretty well with fast healing. Huge burst of energy (wand cosumption) triggers instant rejuvenation of a shell - imagine reverse explosion of damaged golem part - pieces of clay that scattered around reconstruct back in it's unharmed state and all the cracks immediately seal.
This healing mechanic reminds me my hunger/slowness overcomplicated idea. I don't think it's necesarry.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 18:46

Re: New Race: Golem

Galefury wrote:Humans are not magical beings. What does a golem do when he walks around? He magically manipulates earth. What does a golem do when... you get the idea. I think a golem might know a thing or two about magically manipulating earth.

Most humans know nothing about biology, yet they walk around just fine. This argument doesn't stand.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...
User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 153

Joined: Sunday, 23rd January 2011, 20:04

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 19:58

Re: New Race: Golem

I liked the Golem idea up until the part where you have to eat items.
Part of what makes Crawl so great is that you don't really need to carry anything unless you need it.
But if one NEEDS to eat items then the player is going to run around picking up all the items he can find and thats no fun.
(I really don't like the idea of players being encouraged/forced to carry around useless items)

I think that the No magic at all balances out the no hunger factor, because hunger is mostly a problem when casting Big spells.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 20:30

Re: New Race: Golem

omndra wrote:I liked the Golem idea up until the part where you have to eat items.
Part of what makes Crawl so great is that you don't really need to carry anything unless you need it.
But if one NEEDS to eat items then the player is going to run around picking up all the items he can find and thats no fun.
(I really don't like the idea of players being encouraged/forced to carry around useless items)

Too bad that this idea not meets all of your expectations. Mine either.
Anyway, how is carrying your food is useless?

omndra wrote:I think that the No magic at all balances out the no hunger factor, because hunger is mostly a problem when casting Big spells.

Yeah, and now look here:
Image
This is how approximately background screen looks right now for Golem.
That is no good in any way and I think reverting "no magic" drawback to a much lesser extent, making most aptitudes of schools and spellcasting around record negative scores of -4/-5.
+Buffing dodging a little bit so that EV could be also viable choices. Harder than armor but viable.
+Make Throwing or Crossbows viable(making Hunter recomended). Didn't decided yet.
And supposedly screen should look like this:
Image
Legend:
Red - N/A
Orange - Grayed out choice. Only for true masochists.
Yellow - Grayed out choice
Green - Recommended choice
User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 153

Joined: Sunday, 23rd January 2011, 20:04

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 21:34

Re: New Race: Golem

This form of food forces players to pick up items that are normally useless.
In the DC:SS Philosophy section it states

"This explains why shops don't buy: otherwise players would hoover the dungeon for items to sell."

This Hungering Gimmick simply replaces the word sell with Eat.
Making the hungering mechanic even more tedious and complex is a step backwards and would completely negate the reasons behind one of Crawls main design points. (for this race)
Its not that i think that Golems would have a big problem with hunger, they probably would have the easiest time finding "food" throughout the game but thats not the point.
What it would end up doing is encouraging Players to run around and pick up Everything. Just like they would if shops bought Items.

It is an Interesting idea but i do not feel that it is right for this game.
However don't get me wrong i would love to play as a golem, I'd just think that it would be much more interesting if they weren't full of silly gimmicks.
I'd like to think of them (gameplay wise) as Mummies that sacrifice Spell casting for good attributes.
And they would end up being very unique as being the only race unable to use magic.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 21:49

Re: New Race: Golem

omndra wrote:This form of food forces players to pick up items that are normally useless.

Only enchanted items, not every single piece of floor trash. And we can just adapt the interface. Golems automatically detect if an item is enchanted, and it's autopicked-up, just like food for other races. We can also adapt the auto_eat_chunk option. Press e until all enchanted items are eaten or you're healed or satiated. Done well, it can be as easy to use as butchering.
It's just trading an item type for another, I don't think it will break the interface or the balance. This can't be compared to selling to shops.

omndra wrote:However don't get me wrong i would love to play as a golem, I'd just think that it would be much more interesting if they weren't full of silly gimmicks.

And I, for one think it would be much more interesting if golems have a few radically different features. It is a magically animated construct, not a tough human. It deserves a unique mechanism. Maybe it's too ambitious and we won't be able to balance it properly and have to fallback to a more traditional system. Or not. Let's try.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Zzz

User avatar

Halls Hopper

Posts: 63

Joined: Tuesday, 8th February 2011, 19:02

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 21:55

Re: New Race: Golem

The thing with the explosion when you die can kill player ghosts, thus affecting the game. Suicide golems as the new ghostbuster? Nahhhh...
Also do you think Jiyva worshipping golems should get piety when they eat? Why anyone would take the mutation god with a mutate immune race is anyone's guess but still. Would be nice to have a non-living race that can get mutations.
Tab tab tab tab x2
you die... ...wait what?
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 22:04

Re: New Race: Golem

omndra wrote:This form of food forces players to pick up items that are normally useless.

That is the whole point I suppose. Looking at mundane things from new perspective and finding new ways of interaction with them.

omndra wrote:"This explains why shops don't buy: otherwise players would hoover the dungeon for items to sell."
This Hungering Gimmick simply replaces the word sell with Eat.
Making the hungering mechanic even more tedious and complex is a step backwards and would completely negate the reasons behind one of Crawls main design points. (for this race)

Two words: Nemelex Xobeh

omndra wrote:Its not that i think that Golems would have a big problem with hunger, they probably would have the easiest time finding "food" throughout the game but thats not the point.
What it would end up doing is encouraging Players to run around and pick up Everything. Just like they would if shops bought Items.

When I first played Crawl i was running around, grabbing every "glowing" weapon, trying out and switching to new weapon type every few levels without any consideration to aptitudes and already learned skills. When I got wiser, I understood that there is no need to test every weapon - pick up one type and stick with it.
Same is here. Sooner or later, players will understand that there is no need to hoard most of "ego" items as they do not worth the effort. +1 enchant on orcish chainmail will not feed/heal you much so carrying it around is quite stupid.
After some time you will learn to distinguish "low-protein trash" from "highly carbonated randarts",

omndra wrote:I'd like to think of them (gameplay wise) as Mummies that sacrifice Spell casting for good attributes.

I don't. Halflings and Kobolds were very much alike and one of them was in the danger of removal. I don't see any reason in adding another race which differs from mummies by few aspects.

omndra wrote:And they would end up being very unique as being the only race unable to use magic.

You didn't pay attention to my background lists or just didn't care?

omndra wrote:It is an Interesting idea but i do not feel that it is right for this game.
However don't get me wrong i would love to play as a golem, I'd just think that it would be much more interesting if they weren't full of silly gimmicks.

Too late. I already got you wrong it seems. Anyway, too bad that few gimmicks that left, you deem silly.
So, if they weren't full of "silly gimmicks" why they would be much interesting?

You know, I didn't like when there was so many counter productive ideas - but at least people was trying to add something to my idea.
You, on the other hand, come here bashing my and other people's worthy ideas without decent reasoning and, which more annoying, without proposing something in return.
At least I don't shift very easily between ideas in my concept of a race, unlike your mere "new unique" monster which changes it's properties drastically every other comment. (Good bye Oblivion! Beware The Torauxn! Yay!)

galehar wrote:Or not. Let's try.

I like your aptitude. Up for a challenge :)

Zzz wrote:The thing with the explosion when you die can kill player ghosts, thus affecting the game. Suicide golems as the new ghostbuster? Nahhhh...

Wh...What are you talking about? Golems do not leave ghosts.
Zzz wrote:Also do you think Jiyva worshipping golems should get piety when they eat?

Why?! :shock:

Zzz

User avatar

Halls Hopper

Posts: 63

Joined: Tuesday, 8th February 2011, 19:02

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 22:17

Re: New Race: Golem

I was talking about enemy player ghosts.
Eating items all the time means less piety with Jiyva?
Tab tab tab tab x2
you die... ...wait what?
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 22:29

Re: New Race: Golem

Zzz wrote:I was talking about enemy player ghosts.

Ah, I get it now. Well it's very unlikely, and even though not very much of a loss - weak ghost will die (while there are legions of other ghosts) while strong ghosts will be only scratched. By the way I heard that same ghosts can appear only once. So if you saw and moved past or get killed by ghost - you will never see it again in any other games. I might be wrong.
Anyway, "suicide explosion" is more like a silly tint to the whole concept - more likely, I will remove it in next edit.

Zzz wrote:Eating items all the time means less piety with Jiyva?

Not all items and not all the time. And with speed in which level get swarmed by jellies it's more likely that it's not Jiyva will be left without sacrifices, it's your golem will be left without a dinner :)
User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 153

Joined: Sunday, 23rd January 2011, 20:04

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 23:16

Re: New Race: Golem

Curio wrote:You know, I didn't like when there was so many counter productive ideas - but at least people was trying to add something to my idea.
You, on the other hand, come here bashing my and other people's worthy ideas without decent reasoning and, which more annoying, without proposing something in return.
At least I don't shift very easily between ideas in my concept of a race, unlike your mere "new unique" monster which changes it's properties drastically every other comment. (Good bye Oblivion! Beware The Torauxn! Yay!)

Ouch... that kindof hurt.
I had written up counter points to all of the things you had said in response but I deleted all of it when i had read this as you probably do not care for my opinion.

You had read my previous statement incorrectly, or i was unsuccessful in putting my thoughts into words.
But I did not simply "Bash" your idea. I simply saw your Idea and thought that it looked overcomplicated and tried to provide a simple solution that would be easily available. (Eating Items vs No Foodclock and No spells)
(And therefore easier for your race to be implemented)

Yes my monster proposal does often change drastically but that is because someone has a good idea or brings up a good point that i had overlooked.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Monday, 16th May 2011, 23:21

Re: New Race: Golem

Curio wrote:
Zzz wrote:I was talking about enemy player ghosts.

Ah, I get it now. Well it's very unlikely, and even though not very much of a loss - weak ghost will die (while there are legions of other ghosts) while strong ghosts will be only scratched. By the way I heard that same ghosts can appear only once. So if you saw and moved past or get killed by ghost - you will never see it again in any other games. I might be wrong.
Anyway, "suicide explosion" is more like a silly tint to the whole concept - more likely, I will remove it in next edit.

Don't, it's fine. Ghosts come back if you die on their level (but will be less lonely ;) ). They don't if you kill them or leave them alone to go die elsewhere. Anyway, I don't see the problem with taking one with you from time to time. It doesn't have to deal huge damage.

Zzz wrote:Eating items all the time means less piety with Jiyva?

Golems being immune to mutations this is completely irrelevant.

Guys, stop nitpicking about little details this is still a very early design. And please, avoid personal attacks and calm down. This thread is steaming.

Curio, try to make a list of the most important features. Put the best ones first: the ones you care the most about and which you think really defines them.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Tuesday, 17th May 2011, 00:32

Re: New Race: Golem

galehar wrote:
Galefury wrote:Humans are not magical beings. What does a golem do when he walks around? He magically manipulates earth. What does a golem do when... you get the idea. I think a golem might know a thing or two about magically manipulating earth.

Most humans know nothing about biology, yet they walk around just fine. This argument doesn't stand.

Sorry for going on a tangent, but I just have to: I think a golem would have a much harder time learning biology than a human, not having first hand experience with it. Humans know how it feels to have muscles, sinews, blood and bones. They breathe, they have felt pain, a rush of adrenaline going through their body, they have had their bodily functions disturbed by being sick or injured. Or by drinking, smoking and possibly other drugs. A golem would have none of that experience, and would have no context for the things he's trying to learn. Context makes learning much much easier. Especially when you're in a dungeon with no biology books, fighting for your life and just learning from experience.

Why wouldn't it be the same for earth magic, or whatever it is that keeps a golem going? This is not in itself a reason to give them good earth apt and there are more important things to sort out, but I don't see how anyone can dispute that it would fit the theme.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Tuesday, 17th May 2011, 07:41

Re: New Race: Golem

omndra wrote:Ouch... that kindof hurt.

Just like your post did. I will not continue this argument.

@Galefury, please don't spread out into irrelevant semantics about concept. Your comments were helpful until now.

galehar wrote:Curio, try to make a list of the most important features. Put the best ones first: the ones you care the most about and which you think really defines them.

Ok. Here it is:

1)Slow movement
2)Above average HP and some AC boost
3)Resistances and Immunities package (for detail see first post)
4)LRD, Shatter and Disintegration vulnerability.
5)Restriction of boots and glowes but can wear all armours
6)Satiation gained by eating enchanted items.
7)No natural healing - HP gained by eating enchanted items.
8)Slow leveling. Exp multiplier around 140-160
9)Abysmal magic aptitudes and small maxMP gain at a level-up (which makes playable only hybrids)
10)Good Evocations, Invocations and Armor
11)Decent melee aptitudes, dodging and throwing.
12)Bad stealth, stabbing and all ranged except throwing.
13)Ban for using berserk and most living and undead forms
14)Prohibit in using bucklers and blowguns.
15)Can't start as Death Knight and join him altogether.
16)No potion consumption.
17)Consuming a wand restores lot of HP instantly, like HW-pot

I think I didn't forgot anything. It's left to revision aptitudes.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Tuesday, 17th May 2011, 07:57

Re: New Race: Golem

I like this list a lot! And I am confident this would make an interesting species to try out. The flavour is all there, the one bit missing (or I may just have missed it in the thread) is how to replace the hunger adjectives by more golem-adapted words.
Next

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.