Berder's melee octopode formula


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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 15:16

Berder's melee octopode formula

May be adjusted for background and whatever great gear you happen to find.
1. Use long blades
2. Long blades to 14, fighting and dodging to around 10, more fighting than dodging
3. All points in dex
4. If you happen to find a shield then wear it, and train shields to eliminate shield penalty.
5. Use proper luring tactics on everything, like you'd do any time you want to not die.
6. Pre lair, the following are extremely dangerous and should never be fought without buffs and backup plans. A lot of your early fighting power comes from constriction so be extra wary around enemies you can't constrict.
- Jellies
- Ice beasts *unless rC
- Ogres
- Invisible things like some orc mages (kills your ev defense)
- Other things that are obviously dangerous to any character, such as centaurs and orc warriors
7. Obviously, make extensive use of a blowgun if you find one. Also if you find a +Inv item then train evo to make use of it (40% fail or so).
8. Worship Dithmenos
9. In lair, use shadow step to plants in order to escape things. Do not fight hydras, mark exclusions if they're asleep. Be extra careful around the usual lair dangers (in ascending order of difficulty: spiny frogs, black mambas, komodo dragons, blink frog packs).
10. When long blades reaches 14, turn it off and train throwing 100% to 10 throwing. Pick up tomahawks and javelins. With about 10 throwing, tomahawks, and occasional shadow step to plants, you can handle lair hydras safely.
11. When lair starts becoming a dangerous pain, and certainly before lair:8, go back and do orc. Extra careful about orc sorcerer paralysis there
12. Unseen horrors are particularly deadly if you can't see them since invisibility kills ev. Teleport if you can't kill it immediately.
13. After you have 10 throwing, get more dodging and fighting. A small amount of invo to reduce fail rate on shadow step might be worth getting too.
14. If you've found any nice low level support spells like spectral weapon now is a good time to get them.
15. Always acquire jewelry. It will often/usually be something you'll wear or carry for the rest of the game, and sometimes be an artifact ring.
16. shoals/swamp before spider/snake. In spider, fear getting webbed or paralyzed. In snake, fear getting constricted. These attacks murder ev defenses.
17. Train mostly fighting / long blades / dodging / throwing for the rest of the game. But get statue form if possible. And a little stealth doesn't cost much.
18. 1h/2h endgame weapon is up to you, but I recommend 1h if you can find a good one, especially if you've put much skill into shields. Maybe scum elf2 (carefully!) for a weapon at this time.
19. Do elf3 after vaults:4 for the rings.
20. In depths and vaults, be aware that LRD from deep troll earth mages is particularly deadly since you have poor AC. Also fear anything that can paralyze you.
21. Carry a dagger for sleeping enemies, since you're so stealthy. But don't use shadow step too much; stay around max piety for the shadow mimic passive ability.
22. Third easiest rune is abyssal rune due to your stealth. Wear a ring of tele and run away from enemies.
23. Use great caution in zot5. Keep running back to the stairs and re-exploring the outside as you clear the lung, to make sure the path to the stairs remains clear.
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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 15:39

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

What's so good about Long Blades? M&F is the default for me, it allows to kill hydra, has great 1h/2h weapons, reaches min delay faster (20 for great mace, 24 for triple sword) and even allows to use different weapon (Demon Whip or Eveningstar) depending on your slaying (0.5 attack vs 0.7 attack).

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 15:48

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

An octopode can't kill hydras in melee anyway no matter what weapon they have, until they're too high an xl for it to matter. (unless they're invisible - and in that case a dagger works). Long blades also crosstrain with short blades for stabbing, and scale more strongly on dex than on str, which is an advantage since str is not very useful for octopodes. Triple swords are rare and you'd probably be better off with a demon blade and a shield.
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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 16:11

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

This guide talk about a lot of things, except the few most important ones.
How do you get a good weapon? Demon blades are practically nonexistent in the game before the Depths.
How do you survive melee with 1 AC?

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 16:14

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

What about recommending which class to start with to optimize this strategy? Starting classes come with different equipment, starting attributes, and skill investment.
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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 16:57

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Any non-zealot melee start is OK. Skald, fighter, assassin, wanderer, monk, gladiator, whatever. You could also play mage backgrounds like VM more-or-less this way.

Where do you get your 1 handed endgame weapon? Well, you find things lying around. Maybe a shop sells a nice artifact. The game seems to have a lot of unrandart swords, so maybe you find one of those. Maybe you cautiously check out the hall of blades in elf2 after lair and orc. Maybe you have to use a scimitar of electrocution for a while, and back it up with more throwing skill. If all else fails you can just pick up a great sword (which are common) and ditch your shield.

How do you survive with low AC? You have EV and luring tactics. You do have to develop a sense of when the situation is becoming dangerous and use extra buffs or escape.
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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 17:16

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Berder wrote:Where do you get your 1 handed endgame weapon?

I'm not talking about the endgame weapon (that is easy, Dephts will always have demon blades). I'm talking about the weapon in Lair and Orc.

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 17:54

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Tasonir's melee octopode guide:

1. Go Transmuter. Punch all the things.
1a. You can optionally use ice form if you want to have actual AC, but TRUE PRO PODES go into blade hands to one shot everything until they find statue form.
2. Use statue form, destroy everything.

Alternative, for people who don't want to try 20 times:

1. Start as EE, learn stone skin, stone arrow, LRD. Don't die 20 times and play it safe until you get statue form. Fun fact: sandblast, with wielded stones, is a viable attack up to and including lair. Not the best vs death yaks, but you can easily take down spiny frogs, water moccasins, etc with it. Remember, if you don't learn unarmed as soon as you find statue form then you make baby jesus cry. This is a melee guide.
Last edited by tasonir on Friday, 23rd January 2015, 17:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 17:54

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

I'd guess you'd get it the same place as any non-octopode. From the floor!

I have played a few OpFi, and they're suprisingly not horrible (well, not horrible is relative, you're still an OP after all). A shield, longsword, and constriction go a long way. Stealth is easy to get, and you get to be good with daggers for free, so stabbing is an option sometimes.

Why not slings instead of throwing Berder? They help immensely with early game survival, and they're shield compatible.

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 18:26

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

c
Magipi wrote:
Berder wrote:Where do you get your 1 handed endgame weapon?

I'm not talking about the endgame weapon (that is easy, Dephts will always have demon blades). I'm talking about the weapon in Lair and Orc.


Two things - first, depths isn't where you generally look for an endgame weapon. In most 3 rune games my endgame weapon is pretty much set by the time I'm starting lair branches. If I haven't found a nice weapon by that time, I'll just use all my enchant scrolls on the best of what's available, and keep using that for the rest of the game. Of course there are exceptions such as if I find a good randart weapon for lair branches - that would let me postpone the decision of where to use my enchant weapon scrolls.

Second, in lair and orc you don't really need a special weapon. Usually you will find a pretty good weapon by that time, but using a +0 long sword on a death yak is feasible, with care and/or buffs and/or softening them up with throwing or poisoned needles.

Why not slings instead of throwing Berder? They help immensely with early game survival, and they're shield compatible.

I haven't really tried slings with octopodes. Is that better than throwing? I got the impression that the only reason to use slings is if your sling aptitude is good and your throwing aptitude isn't so good. Or if you find an awesome artifact sling, of course.
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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 18:33

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Slings are a bit better than throwing at low levels of skill. They're good right from the second you pick one up and have some stones, especially if you have some bullets. Tossing 4 skill into slings and slinging monsters works surprisingly well. If you have 15 throwing vs 15 slings, there's little point to using slings then, unless you have a really good sling and some branded ammo. It gets much worse if you have throwing 25. In short - throwing's much better eventually - slings will get you to lair.

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 21:21

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Indeed, roughly (and this is just experience, not fact talking):
For a hunting sling:
with rocks skill 0-8 is better than throwing tomahawks, with bullets skill 0-12 is better than throwing tomahawks
with rocks skill 0-4 is better than throwing Javelins, with bullets skill 0-8 is better than throwing Javelins
For a greatslings:
with rocks skill 0-12 is better than throwing tomahawks, with bullets skill 0-18 is better than throwing tomahawks
with rocks skill 0-8 is better than throwing Javelins, with bullets skill 0-16 is better than throwing Javelins

So if you only want to invest a little, slings are slightly better than throwing (If you are going to invest heavily, ultimately throwing wins)

Also a demon whip is about as good as a demon blade (and neither is quite as good as a demon trident)
However a morningstar is slightly better (and slightly more common) than a scimitar, and both are far superior to a (non demon) trident (Which is about as good as a long sword or flail).
Eveningstars and doubleswords are sufficiently rare that they aren't worth considering (because by the time you have one, you are past the point at which it matters.)

Generally I'd go with M&F because I'm more likely to have a good morningstar to use in the lair, than I am to have a scimitar, however short blade cross training for stabs is useful (There are a large number of good daggers you're likely to find earlyish)

If your 'pode has found good enough rings and a good shield by lair, meleeing hydras (with a morningstar or notably a flaming scimitar) is possible (particularly if they have 5 heads or less to start with), you can constrict them, and they can be blocked by shields, however I would usually rather not do so, personally, because even where possible, they are going to do significant damage to you.

Typically my 'podes confuse/sleep/paralyze and stab hydras if I don't have wand or throwing power to kill them with, but ranged damage is preferable.

I've never come across a situation where the lair got "too hard" and I had to back out and go do part of orc instead, but maybe that's just me.
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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 21:51

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Siegurt wrote:I've never come across a situation where the lair got "too hard" and I had to back out and go do part of orc instead, but maybe that's just me.


I've had Rupert camping the stairs (which were all grouped together) and the like, but yeah, it is very rare that I need to back out of Lair to go do more dungeon and/or orc. (On the other hand, it isn't that uncommon for Orc 4 to be too much for my character, requiring me to come back later.)

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 22:11

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

You don't back out of lair and go do orc because orc doesn't really make you stronger; you go do more dungeon instead.

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 22:14

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Siegurt wrote:Also a demon whip is about as good as a demon blade (and neither is quite as good as a demon trident)


Really? I would take 11/5 (whip) over 12/6 (trident).

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 22:16

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Sandman25 wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Also a demon whip is about as good as a demon blade (and neither is quite as good as a demon trident)


Really? I would take 11/5 (whip) over 12/6 (trident).

Dtrident is 13/6 (DBlade is 12/6) At high levels the output is very very similar (With a small edge to the trident) plus the trident has reaching. It's a small difference, but noticable
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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 22:37

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

dtrident is 12/6, dblade is 13/6
but reaching makes up for the lost damage in pretty much any reasonable circumstance

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Post Friday, 23rd January 2015, 22:44

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

crate wrote:dtrident is 12/6, dblade is 13/6
but reaching makes up for the lost damage in pretty much any reasonable circumstance

Whoops, my bad my brain went on vacation for that post, please disregard any and all insanity it may have caused
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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 02:00

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

crate wrote:You don't back out of lair and go do orc because orc doesn't really make you stronger; you go do more dungeon instead.

Sure it does; not xp-wise, but loot-wise, orc is often where you can find a better weapon or better rings. Of course, do the dungeon to d12 as well.

The time to back out of lair is when/if you run into a level with too many wandering hydras, or packs of death yaks chasing you everywhere. Orc1-3 is much easier than lair at this point, and orc4 is often also easier if you have a blowgun for those orc warlords. Head back to lair if you run into stone giants etc.

Indeed, roughly (and this is just experience, not fact talking):
For a hunting sling:
with rocks skill 0-8 is better than throwing tomahawks, with bullets skill 0-12 is better than throwing tomahawks
with rocks skill 0-4 is better than throwing Javelins, with bullets skill 0-8 is better than throwing Javelins
For a greatslings:
with rocks skill 0-12 is better than throwing tomahawks, with bullets skill 0-18 is better than throwing tomahawks
with rocks skill 0-8 is better than throwing Javelins, with bullets skill 0-16 is better than throwing Javelins

Isn't that really going to depend on the enchantment level of your sling?
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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 06:55

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Berder wrote:
Indeed, roughly (and this is just experience, not fact talking):
For a hunting sling:
with rocks skill 0-8 is better than throwing tomahawks, with bullets skill 0-12 is better than throwing tomahawks
with rocks skill 0-4 is better than throwing Javelins, with bullets skill 0-8 is better than throwing Javelins
For a greatslings:
with rocks skill 0-12 is better than throwing tomahawks, with bullets skill 0-18 is better than throwing tomahawks
with rocks skill 0-8 is better than throwing Javelins, with bullets skill 0-16 is better than throwing Javelins

Isn't that really going to depend on the enchantment level of your sling?

Certainly (brand makes a large difference too), and that's just a vague rough approximation, a very good sling might outlast those numbers, a +0 vanilla one might not even be that good. The point I was making is that slings are often slightly better than throwing for a little while, then stop being so, so if you only want to invest just a little XP ever into your ranged attacks, slings are better than throwing, but if you're in it for the long haul, probably best to stick with throwing.

(Obviously this doesn't apply to Op, but it's also notable that body-armour users have their throwing slowed down by body armour penalties)
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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 07:03

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Siegurt wrote:Certainly (brand makes a large difference too), and that's just a vague rough approximation, a very good sling might outlast those numbers, a +0 vanilla one might not even be that good. The point I was making is that slings are often slightly better than throwing for a little while, then stop being so, so if you only want to invest just a little XP ever into your ranged attacks, slings are better than throwing, but if you're in it for the long haul, probably best to stick with throwing.

(Obviously this doesn't apply to Op, but it's also notable that body-armour users have their throwing slowed down by body armour penalties)

10 throwing is just barely enough to kill a typical hydra before it reaches you (depending on what stat rings you have on). That seems to be around the border where you say slings give way to throwing, so it would be a toss-up.

As for using throwing in the rest of the game - sometimes you have weaker melee and plenty of ammo, and do want a lot more throwing. Other times you get statform and barely need throwing at all for the rest of the game. So it varies.
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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 13:45

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Always acquire jewellery doesn't seem good to me because a wand of haste/HW will make you more powerful than pretty much any ring (and it's not like jewellery acquirement is particularly good).

Can't imagine a situation where I would take Dith on a weak melee char instead of Fedhas either. You talk about how scary ice beasts and hydras are - Fedhas at * can make them all go away. Also sunlight can be useful vs. unseen horrors, I guess, and rain is more useful when you can swim, too.

Then again I suck with squids.

Edit: also obviously D:2 Oka is better than D:9 Fedhas or Dith or whatever (I generally dislike guides that recommend you only one god and not a pool of gods).

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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 14:29

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Sar wrote:Always acquire jewellery doesn't seem good to me because a wand of haste/HW will make you more powerful than pretty much any ring (and it's not like jewellery acquirement is particularly good).

Acquire jewelry is bad for non-octopodes, but for octopodes it's the best because of the 8 ring slots that you have trouble filling, meaning that you can usually use whatever you get. A crucial resistance you were missing can definitely be as good or better than a wand of hasting. You rarely get artifact rings from acquirement, but if you do, that can be much better than a wand of hasting.

Can't imagine a situation where I would take Dith on a weak melee char except for Fedhas either. You talk about how scary ice beasts and hydras are - Fedhas at * can make them all go away. Also sunlight can be useful vs. unseen horrors, I guess, and rain is more useful when you can swim, too.

Then again I suck with squids.

Edit: also obviously D:2 Oka is better than D:9 Fedhas or Dith or whatever (I generally dislike guides that recommend you only one god and not a pool of gods).

The secret is, octopodes aren't actually that hard to get to lair. They have constriction, and as long as you know what enemies to avoid, their pre-lair defenses aren't much worse than any other character's and their offense is better. Where you need the most help is later on where other characters have armor and your ev isn't even that good compared to small races. Instead of armor, you get stealth and some passive bonuses from dith. I would recommend even a D:9 dithmenos. My octopode streak games (some melee, some magic) are all dith.

Okawaru? Maybe. Not sure. Go streak octopodes with non-dith and tell me if it worked. I can say that in my experience playing octopodes with both dith and non-dith, dith seemed easier. 9/10 of my Dithpode games with xl>20 were wins. 3/8 of my non-dith octopode games with xl>20 were wins.
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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 14:39

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

In my experience, acquire jewellery is bad because it will usually give you some plan amulet or ring you haven't seen yet and I would take a wand of hasting/HW over pretty much any blue amulet or ring imaginable (and 99% of white ones as well).

Fedhas absolutely destroys Lair, Orc and most of Dungeon as well, not just pre-Lair.

Most characters will have more than 1 AC before Lair and AC in early game is more important than EV (compare a character with 12/2 and 2/12 in your typical pre-Temple Dungeon, one of those has much better defences).

Berder wrote:Go streak octopodes with non-dith and tell me if it worked.

Okay, I can't do that, you win. I won't post ITT anymore.

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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 15:22

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

  Code:
<Sequell> 5 games for crate (op xl>20): 2x Okawaru (winning (OpNe), beam (OpTm)), Ashenzari (winning (OpWz)), Trog (winning (OpHu)), Vehumet (winning (OpAE))

and the one not-won was where I was pretty clearly just done with the game and decided to not play well in zot:5 because it was faster

  Code:
<Sequell> crate has 2 consecutive wins (OpAE, OpWz).

hey it worked!

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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 15:23

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Sar wrote:In my experience, acquire jewellery is bad because it will usually give you some plan amulet or ring you haven't seen yet and I would take a wand of hasting/HW over pretty much any blue amulet or ring imaginable (and 99% of white ones as well).

Consider a ring of invisibility - that's much better than a wand of hasting in lair branches. Or what if you have no rF - better to have a ring of fire resistance than haste, when fighting a fire giant whose unresisted fireballs can take away 1/2 your hp (3d26). Would you rather fight simulacra with rC+, or with no rC but with haste?

Did you know that octopodes have an 8x greater chance of acquiring a ring compared to an amulet?

Fedhas absolutely destroys Lair, Orc and most of Dungeon as well, not just pre-Lair.

But if you're taking an early fedhas, the only benefit compared to waiting for a late dithmenos would be pre-lair and early-lair. After that, you'd have enough Dithmenos piety to get him off the ground, and the late dithmenos would be better than the early fedhas from that point onwards.

Most characters will have more than 1 AC before Lair and AC in early game is more important than EV (compare a character with 12/2 and 2/12 in your typical pre-Temple Dungeon, one of those has much better defences).

Well, all I can say is that pre-lair is the easy part for my podes. It's hard to oversell constriction. Once an enemy is constricted, every single hit will land. I'm not saying it's necessarily easier than other races - but it's not super important to have a god to get you through it.

crate wrote:
  Code:
<Sequell> crate has 2 consecutive wins (OpAE, OpWz).

hey it worked!

Congrats! :D

But that's not enough to make me abandon my faith in the Lord of Darkness.
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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 15:26

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

But if you're taking an early fedhas, the only benefit compared to waiting for a late dithmenos would be pre-lair and early-lair.

yes, this is literally the reason you take fedhas
it's a pretty good reason

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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 21:26

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Berder wrote:Or what if you have no rF - better to have a ring of fire resistance than haste, when fighting a fire giant whose unresisted fireballs can take away 1/2 your hp (3d26). Would you rather fight simulacra with rC+, or with no rC but with haste?

Generally I would take haste in both cases. (Disclaimer: My best Op so far was an OpAK that took part in a constriction contest (old constriction) with an anaconda in Snake and lost.)
...SENeGEFEMDBeDDFiHOWzVpVMHuEE{HEMoDEHuDDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}
{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}
DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNe

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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 22:09

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Acquirement contest is not wand of HW/Haste vs jewelry, it's wand vs jewelry. I remember countless acquirements when I got another wand of lightning/fire/fireball/invisibility/enslavement instead of unknown HW/Haste. It's not that I prefer jewelry over wands though.

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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 22:33

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

But isn't there normally (probably depends on the number of unknown items) a bigger chance to get unknown haste wand than unknown rF+ ring from acquirement?
...SENeGEFEMDBeDDFiHOWzVpVMHuEE{HEMoDEHuDDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}
{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}
DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNe

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Post Saturday, 24th January 2015, 22:56

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Sprucery wrote:But isn't there normally (probably depends on the number of unknown items) a bigger chance to get unknown haste wand than unknown rF+ ring from acquirement?


Probably. Yet jewelry can give an amazing artefact and I don't know how to include it in the comparison. Jewelry has many nice items, not just 2/3. I don't consider HW that good late game by the way so it's only haste which is always useful.

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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 00:37

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

It looks like crate can win with just about anything.

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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 10:33

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Re the usefulness of acquire jewelry, my current character has used two scrolls of acquirement, and received the following two rings:
d - the ring of Fuysol (on tentacle) {rF+ rC+ MR- Int+3}
the ring "Ipeeg" (on tentacle) {rC+ MR+ Int+4 SInv}
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 20:46

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

I would not consider the first ring that good, really, though if you have other MR+ rings it is fine.

The second ring is good, but whether it is as good as a rod or a staff of conjuration or a good wand or a significant weapon upgrade or simply gold acquirement (if you got some shops with good stuff in them for once) will, of course, depend. I have used jewelry acquirement plenty of times and though I have received good rings or amulets this way, on balance I find it to be even more inconsistent than other acquirement options. Never the worst option, I'd say, but usually not the best. Better for Op than for other species, but still not necessarily better than other options.
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 21:18

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

and into wrote:The second ring is good, but whether it is as good as a rod or a staff of conjuration or a good wand or a significant weapon upgrade or simply gold acquirement (if you got some shops with good stuff in them for once) will, of course, depend.


Op-specific advantage: Consider that it might be used to free up one or more ring slots by stacking 2+ abilities of other rings already worn. Definitely ditch any basic ring of SINV.
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 21:53

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

and into wrote:I would not consider the first ring that good, really, though if you have other MR+ rings it is fine.

The first ring helped me through ice cave and against many elemental attacks for a while (this game I got a surplus of resistances). Removable when near enemies that can paralyze. The second ring ofc is pure gold. Given the choice between a ring with rF+ and rC+, and a wand of hasting, gimme the ring. Besides, this game I'm casting haste myself - you just need around 10-12 charms to cast it when you have no armor and octopode int. Less with wiz.

I gotta admit that a lot of luck was involved with these particular ?acq, but the results still usually satisfy.

On another note I'm trying out slings this game and liking the results. Unlike with throwing, I can just press tab instead of f <enter>. I'm just wrecking everything up to my current place (U:5) with my +8 artifact hunting sling of freezing, at 12 slings skill, with unlimited stone ammo. Of course, this depends on having a good sling.
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 22:18

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Well, unless I could caste haste already, I would take a wand of hasting over a ring with rF+, rC+, and Int +3, and a ring with those properties but also with MR- is worse obviously. (Assuming I did not already have a wand of hasting and sufficient ?recharging.)

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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 22:40

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Non-octopodes can get by without good resistances, because they have armor to reduce that elemental damage. For octopodes it's more important; to a certain extent they get resistances in place of armor.
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Post Tuesday, 27th January 2015, 09:35

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Another fine jewelry acquirement (First acq this game):

c - the ring of Stuvaty (on tentacle) {+Fly Dex+8 Stlth-}.
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Post Tuesday, 27th January 2015, 10:44

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

So are you trying to prove that jewellery acquirement sucks in comparison of most others?
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Tuesday, 27th January 2015, 10:59

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

+8 dex is pretty darn good!
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 20:52

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

What stat upgrade do you usually pick on your Octopodes? Do you go with Int to help with supplemental spell casting? Dex to help EV? Str to help melee damage/constriction?

Edit: Nvm, I see that you said to put all points in Dex. Would you mind explaining the reasoning? Is it for EV? Would you do the same for a caster OP, or would you do Int for those?
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 21:16

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Styro wrote:What stat upgrade do you usually pick on your Octopodes? Do you go with Int to help with supplemental spell casting? Dex to help EV? Str to help melee damage/constriction?

Edit: Nvm, I see that you said to put all points in Dex. Would you mind explaining the reasoning? Is it for EV? Would you do the same for a caster OP, or would you do Int for those?

Yes, it's dex for ev. For a blaster-caster Op, I would put points in int for better casting.
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 14:00

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

I've been using this formula to run my melee 'podes for some time now. Still to get a winner, but thought I'd point something out...

You can no longer shadowstep to plants in the Lair (Trunk), infact I cant find anything whatsoever that you can shadowstep to, that isnt a sleeping creature. Statues and plants just dont cast shadows anymore. This hurts the value of Dithmenos on this build for me. Free stealth is nice, it saves the XP for elsewhere, but no Op has problems getting stealth if they want it. The shadow mimic is also nice, helps buff up your damage output a bit and I do love it with slings, but is it enough to warrant this god every run?

Lately I've been grabbing a bit of early Stealth and trying a mix of other gods. I like Dith, but his shadowstep was a big part of it for me, I use it as an escape. In its current incarnation its only really good for a stabber who wants to be adjacent right this minute.
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 14:04

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

I suspect a defense-oriented god like Makhleb or even Chei might be easier than Dith for Op middle/late game.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 18:35

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

Mod note: deleted posts that were using this thread as an excuse to play out a personal conflict. Take it to PM, folks.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 18:58

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

celem wrote:I've been using this formula to run my melee 'podes for some time now. Still to get a winner, but thought I'd point something out...

You can no longer shadowstep to plants in the Lair (Trunk), infact I cant find anything whatsoever that you can shadowstep to, that isnt a sleeping creature. Statues and plants just dont cast shadows anymore. This hurts the value of Dithmenos on this build for me. Free stealth is nice, it saves the XP for elsewhere, but no Op has problems getting stealth if they want it. The shadow mimic is also nice, helps buff up your damage output a bit and I do love it with slings, but is it enough to warrant this god every run?

Lately I've been grabbing a bit of early Stealth and trying a mix of other gods. I like Dith, but his shadowstep was a big part of it for me, I use it as an escape. In its current incarnation its only really good for a stabber who wants to be adjacent right this minute.

You're absolutely right. It is a tragedy that shadowstep to plants was removed, ruining dith for non-stabbers and taking away one of the most interesting and powerful aspects of the god. With dith, plants were an important terrain feature as significant as a chokepoint instead of useless decoration. It's really a shame to see that destroyed.
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 13:33

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

crate wrote:You don't back out of lair and go do orc because orc doesn't really make you stronger; you go do more dungeon instead.

I've done Orc 1-3 even before Lair one time when I needed the $$$ for an endgame weapon that was in an early shop.
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 14:28

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

MainiacJoe wrote:
crate wrote:You don't back out of lair and go do orc because orc doesn't really make you stronger; you go do more dungeon instead.

I've done Orc 1-3 even before Lair one time when I needed the $$$ for an endgame weapon that was in an early shop.

Yes, and orc may have a jewelry shop or two which can make you a lot stronger.
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Post Friday, 22nd May 2015, 12:37

Re: Berder's melee octopode formula

I'd like to point out to anyone thinking about actually giving this guide a run that this setup is about twice as fun in .15 because of some mechanics changes, mostly long blade stabbing and shadow traps suck when you have 3 ac. Especially compared to trunk with the shadowstep hamstring.

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