I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race


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Snake Sneak

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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 02:08

I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Of the races currently available in Crawl, the High Elf is the one most suited to hybrid caster-fighter builds. On the caster side, they are well-rounded, but on the fighter side, they are considerably slanted towards light, stealthy, and graceful combat.

There is no equivalent for tanky combat. This is an empty niche that needs filling.

Here is my idea:

Oni
Starting mutations:
Horns 1
Tough Skin 2

Aptitudes:

Fgt +1
SBl -3
LBl -1
M&F +3
Axs +1
Pla +1
Stv 0
UC +1

Arm +4
Ddg -3
Sth -2
Shd +2

Thr -3
Slg -1
Bws -3
Crb -3

Spc +1
Coj -2
Hex +2
Cha +2
Sum +1
Nec +2
Trl -2
Trm 0

Fir +1
Ice -2
Air 0
Ear +1
Poi +2

Inv -1
Evo -1

HP +2
MP +1
EXP -1

Halls Hopper

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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 02:21

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Hill Orc.

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Snake Sneak

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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 02:31

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Hill Orc does not have a single positive casting aptitude.
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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 02:34

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Just because it doesn't, does not mean you can't invest skill points into it.
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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 02:51

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Hill Orc's base defensive and fighting aptitudes are so high, you can just toss everything into spells and have it work reasonably well.

I was amazed when I first tried a HOFE.
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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 02:57

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Hill Orcs have 0 Conj, 0 Hex, 0 Sum, 0 Nec, +1 Fire, and 0 Earth. That's is pretty good combined with the fact that Hill Orcs are Hill Orcs.
Last edited by Sar on Sunday, 11th January 2015, 02:57, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 02:57

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

mechanicalmaniac wrote:Hill Orc does not have a single positive casting aptitude.


Fire magic.
take it easy

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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 03:02

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

mechanicalmaniac wrote:Hill Orc does not have a single positive casting aptitude.


Fire +1.

The worst thing about a HOFE (for example) is that right out of the gate, you have greater than 10% failure on flame tongue and (IIRC) only 2 MP. After the very early game (like D1 and half of D2 maybe) your ability to cast your core spells is only slightly worse than a high elf (fire +1, conj 0 vs. fire 0, conj. +1, but HE have better intelligence and—far less important—better spellcasting apt). On the other hand a HO has much better HP and can pick up weapon skill and fighting more easily, and your aptitudes and stats tend to push you more toward a focus on armor.

But more to the point, I think you are putting too much emphasis on (positive) aptitudes. For the most part, if a species has reasonable stats and hp/mp, and you take the average aptitudes for the main skills you are interested in developing for certain play style that you have in mind, and the number comes out to around -1 or better, and none of those main skills are at lower than -2, then you shouldn't have problems staying ahead of the curve.* Draconians, gargoyles, hill orcs, humans, demigods, merfolk, demonspawn, etc., all have at least a few book backgrounds that they are solid in, to start, and all of them can pick up weapons and take a hit well. Of those, some will tend to gravitate toward wearing heavier-than-leather armor, as well.

*Note: Some species like Trolls and Naga have other stuff going on that overwhelms consideration of aptitudes, so I didn't include them, but actually trolls (for instance) make for great "tanky casters" as well, even if, on paper, the aptitudes would not seem to support it.

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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 04:09

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

also ce dg na fo dd etc

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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 16:24

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

As it stands right now, the race is basically a very strong mace user with excellent aptitudes for some of the best utility schools (excepting Translocations) and high spellcasting to easily get a wide range of spells. Low conjurations means that it wouldn't actually be used typically as a 'tanky caster', but rather a typical fighter that also happens to have a really easy time casting very useful spells. I would expect to see some significant drawback(s) to balance all this, on the same order of magnitude as Formicid perma-stasis.

On a side note, if you want to play something more like a real 'tanky caster', try a Gargoyle Earth Elementalist. They get really high AC eventually and you don't even have to wear particularly heavy armour to get it. Plus gargoyles are just ridiculous.

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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 17:47

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Jarlyk wrote:...Plus gargoyles are just ridiculous.

:(

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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 19:14

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

rockygargoyle wrote:
Jarlyk wrote:...Plus gargoyles are just ridiculous.

:(

Ridiculous in a good way. :)

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Post Sunday, 11th January 2015, 21:52

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

For some reason I kept reading this title as 'I CAN FIST'. For some reason I just kept shrugging and going, ok.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 00:43

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

mechanicalmaniac wrote:Of the races currently available in Crawl, the High Elf is the one most suited to hybrid caster-fighter builds. On the caster side, they are well-rounded, but on the fighter side, they are considerably slanted towards light, stealthy, and graceful combat.

There is no equivalent for tanky combat. This is an empty niche that needs filling.

What difference does it make whether you hit things with a long blade or a mace - except for hydras, it barely makes a difference to gameplay. The only difference would be str vs dex weighting, which isn't a huge difference. And if you're going str, then your defenses are poor unless you have heavy armor. And if you have heavy armor then you can't cast many spells. So what I'm saying is, there's a reason hybrids often tend to use high-DEX weapons.

If you really want a high-str heavily armored mace-wielding hybrid race, it would need some mutation that reduces the effect of armor on casting success.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 02:00

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Berder wrote:If you really want a high-str heavily armored mace-wielding hybrid race, it would need some mutation that reduces the effect of armor on casting success.

STR does this. That's why demigods, Chei, and Hill Orcs are often proposed solutions. An opposite to the Naga and Centaur ill-fitting armour mutation would do it, too, but I feel like pointing things out in a snarky way right now.

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 04:21

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

jejorda2 wrote:
Berder wrote:If you really want a high-str heavily armored mace-wielding hybrid race, it would need some mutation that reduces the effect of armor on casting success.

STR does this. That's why demigods, Chei, and Hill Orcs are often proposed solutions. An opposite to the Naga and Centaur ill-fitting armour mutation would do it, too, but I feel like pointing things out in a snarky way right now.

Yes, it does... but it doesn't seem to do it very well, does it? Chei is a different story, but aside from Chei, if you want to wear heavy armor by lair or lair branches, you're going to have trouble casting many spells. Let me say, just being able to cast low-level utilities like blink, rmsl, regen, and spectral weapon does not really make you a hybrid, by my definition.

We can agree that a hybrid who is in light armor is obviously going to have an easier time casting things.
Last edited by Berder on Monday, 12th January 2015, 04:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 04:24

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Sounds like you aren't training your spell skills enough - getting level 6 spells even in plate is very doable. Most commonly haste, of course, but there's no reason you couldn't take others especially in medium armour (fire dragon armour, etc.).

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 04:31

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Can you get haste in plate? yes. Should you? It's dubious. Consider what else you could do with all that XP. And then maybe you find a wand of hasting and make that skill investment wasted.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 04:45

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

i want it all, everything
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 04:47

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Nothing else you can do with that exp is going to give your character a 50% power boost. If you find a wand of hasting, that reduces the benefit but haste's still far from wasted. The amount of fights in which haste will make a significant difference is a lot larger than the amount of haste charges available to you (probably a few dozen). And there are other excellent spells in the level 5/6 range, like shadow creatures or bolts, if you happen to have enough consumables. In many circumstances, using enough exp for level 2/3 charms and not going all the way to level 6 when you find haste does seem like inefficient exp use though, considering that there's a relatively significant investment required for even the lower-level spells if you're wearing plate.

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 05:13

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Well, I've gotten haste on only a few characters, so I'm not going to just say you're wrong. But I do want to talk about this one thing.
cerebovssquire wrote:Nothing else you can do with that exp is going to give your character a 50% power boost.

First let's talk about what haste does. On the one hand, it increases your per-aut damage output by 50%, and it's true, that's hard to top. But there's another way to look at it. Haste can be viewed defensively - haste leaves your per-turn damage output the same, but decreases the per-turn damage you receive by 33%, since your turns are shorter. And it's much easier to train skills that give you that amount of defense. For example, if you upgrade your AC by 10-15 points by wearing heavier armor and training more armor skill, that's likely to decrease incoming damage by around 33% (according to my tables of damage reduction from AC and EV). Or if you upgrade your AC by 5 points and train some more fighting and weapon skill, the combination of increased damaged output and reduced incoming damage and greater HP could easily be greater than what haste gives you.

And if you opt to get physical skills instead of haste, you can then use a potion of haste or wand of hasting, only when it's most needed, to become temporarily stronger than you would ever be if you had learned the spell haste.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 05:40

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Berder wrote:Well, I've gotten haste on only a few characters, so I'm not going to just say you're wrong. But I do want to talk about this one thing.
cerebovssquire wrote:Nothing else you can do with that exp is going to give your character a 50% power boost.

First let's talk about what haste does. On the one hand, it increases your per-aut damage output by 50%, and it's true, that's hard to top. But there's another way to look at it. Haste can be viewed defensively - haste leaves your per-turn damage output the same, but decreases the per-turn damage you receive by 33%, since your turns are shorter. And it's much easier to train skills that give you that amount of defense. For example, if you upgrade your AC by 10-15 points by wearing heavier armor and training more armor skill, that's likely to decrease incoming damage by around 33% (according to my tables of damage reduction from AC and EV). Or if you upgrade your AC by 5 points and train some more fighting and weapon skill, the combination of increased damaged output and reduced incoming damage and greater HP could easily be greater than what haste gives you.

And if you opt to get physical skills instead of haste, you can then use a potion of haste or wand of hasting, only when it's most needed, to become temporarily stronger than you would ever be if you had learned the spell haste.


While it's true that' it's relatively easy (depending on the race, and available equipement) to go from 10 to 15 AC, it's *much* harder to go from 40 AC to 60 AC, the amount of investment to get that addition 33% reduction gets harder and harder as the game progresses, haste takes roughly the same amount of investment as the game progresses, but provides the same benefit no matter what state you're in when you get it.

It's therefore obvious at some point, the two will cross in terms of a cost/benefit ratio, and it will ultimately be a better investment to try to get haste over getting more AC.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 05:41

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Those types of example are only correct when you view the entire game as being trapped down a well with a monster, the two of you just wailing on each other all day.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 06:49

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Siegurt wrote:
While it's true that' it's relatively easy (depending on the race, and available equipement) to go from 10 to 15 AC, it's *much* harder to go from 40 AC to 60 AC, the amount of investment to get that addition 33% reduction gets harder and harder as the game progresses, haste takes roughly the same amount of investment as the game progresses, but provides the same benefit no matter what state you're in when you get it.

It's therefore obvious at some point, the two will cross in terms of a cost/benefit ratio, and it will ultimately be a better investment to try to get haste over getting more AC.

What stage of the game are you talking about? If you're talking about going from 40 to 60 AC then that sounds like extended. If you're doing extended then maybe get haste. Armor is going to be less useful by that point due to hellfire/torment so the balance tips in favor of haste. But if that's when you learn haste, for most of the game you weren't a hybrid.

Another thing to consider is that you don't need to actually need a 50% increase in defense to match the haste spell. If instead of haste you only have a 25% increase in defense, then you can comfortably handle some situations that you would otherwise have needed haste for. And for the really dangerous situations, you still can use consumable haste and knock them out of the park.

Another thing to consider: If instead of haste you got a 10% increase in damage, 10% greater damage reduction factor from AC, 10% greater damage reduction factor from EV, and 10% more HP, then you can kick (1.1)^4 = 1.46 as much monster butt as before.

As far as running out of consumable haste is concerned: there might have been one time in zot5 when I had a weak character and got unlucky with recharge scrolls, but I'm not sure if I ever actually ran all the way out after finding the wand.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 07:29

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Berder wrote:Can you get haste in plate? yes. Should you? It's dubious. Consider what else you could do with all that XP. And then maybe you find a wand of hasting and make that skill investment wasted.

Well, it isn't.

  Code:
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15.2 (tiles) character file.

6030371 ZeroXYZ the Annihilator (level 27, 214/214 HPs)
             Began as a Deep Elf Wizard on Dec 17, 2014.
             Was the Champion of Cheibriados.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 15 runes on Dec 22, 2014!
             
             The game lasted 2days 16:21:15 (363712 turns).

ZeroXYZ the Annihilator (Deep Elf Wizard)      Turns: 363712, Time: 2, 16:21:15

HP 214/214       AC 58     Str 21      XL: 27
MP  59/59        EV 28     Int 67      God: Cheibriados [******]
Gold 20338       SH 38     Dex 29      Spells: 13 memorised,  0 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     B - +10 broad axe of the Eternal Void {freeze, rC++}
rCold  + + +     Clarity  +     J - +8 orange crystal plate armour {Archmagi, Int+3 Clar SustAb}
rNeg   + + +     rCorr    .     U - +18 shield of the gong {rElec rN+ MR+ EV-5}
rPois  .         rRot     .     p - +3 hat of Pondering {ponderous, MR+ MP+10 Int+5}
rElec  +         Spirit   .     O - +2 cloak "Qogras" {rN+ Slay+6}
SustAb +         Warding  +     z - +2 pair of gloves of Resilience {rC++ Slay+4}
rMut   .         Stasis   .     g - +0 pair of boots of Joy {Str+4 Slay+6}
Gourm  .                        V - macabre finger necklace {Ward rN+}
MR     +++++                    n - ring of the Mage {Wiz MR++ Int+3}
                                k - ring of Vitality {HP+15 Regen}
                                o - ring "Adykud" {MP+9 Dex+2 Int+4}

@: deflect missiles, very slow, almost entirely resistant to hostile
enchantments, very unstealthy
A: horns 1, talons 1, rough black scales 1, thin metallic scales 1, regeneration
1, weak 1, wild magic 1
a: Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time, Renounce Religion
0: Orb of Zot
}: 15/15 runes: barnacled, slimy, silver, golden, iron, obsidian, icy, bone,
abyssal, demonic, glowing, magical, fiery, dark, gossamer


You escaped.
You worshipped Cheibriados.
Cheibriados was exalted by your worship.
You were full.

You visited 18 branches of the dungeon, and saw 96 of its levels.
You visited Pandemonium 7 times, and saw 39 of its levels.
You visited the Abyss 6 times.
You completed 3 Ziggurats, and saw 81 of their levels.
You also visited: Labyrinth, Trove, Ossuary and Ice Cave.

You collected 29316 gold pieces.
You spent 8517 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 B - the +10 broad axe of the Eternal Void (weapon) {freeze, rC++}
   (You found it in an ice cave)   
   
   It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra
   injury to most foes and up to double damage against particularly susceptible
   opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures.
   
   It greatly protects you from cold.
Armour
 g - the +0 pair of boots of Joy (worn) {Str+4 Slay+6}
   (You found it on level 11 of a ziggurat)   
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+6).
 p - the +3 hat of Pondering (worn) {ponderous, MR+ MP+10 Int+5}
   (You found it on level 12 of a ziggurat)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+5).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It affects your magic capacity (+10).
 z - the +2 pair of gloves of Resilience (worn) {rC++ Slay+4}
   (You found it on level 18 of a ziggurat)   
   
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+4).
   It greatly protects you from cold.
 J - the +8 orange crystal plate armour (worn) {Archmagi, Int+3 Clar SustAb}
   (You found it on level 14 of a ziggurat)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It sustains your strength, intelligence and dexterity.
   It protects you against confusion.
 O - the +2 cloak "Qogras" (worn) {rN+ Slay+6}
   (You found it on level 27 of a ziggurat)   
   
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+6).
   It protects you from negative energy.
 U - the +18 shield of the gong (worn) {rElec rN+ MR+ EV-5}
   (You found it on level 25 of a ziggurat)   
   
   It affects your evasion (-5).
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
Magical devices
 d - a wand of teleportation (9)
 s - a wand of digging (21)
 D - a wand of disintegration (21)
 P - a wand of heal wounds (6)
Scrolls
 c - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 f - 2 scrolls of enchant weapon
 h - 71 scrolls of teleportation
 q - 21 scrolls of recharging
 t - 30 scrolls of fog
 u - 48 scrolls of remove curse
 v - 39 scrolls of identify
 y - 17 scrolls of fear
 I - 28 scrolls of immolation
 K - 21 scrolls of blinking
Jewellery
 i - the ring of Shadows {Umbra +Inv rN+ SInv}
   (You found it on level 1 of the Tomb of the Ancients)   
   
   [ring of invisibility]
   
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It lets you turn invisible.
 j - the ring "Lubreugo" {+Blink +Inv rF+ rC++ MR++}
   (You found it on level 13 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of protection from fire]
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It greatly protects you from cold.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It lets you turn invisible.
   It lets you blink.
 k - the ring of Vitality (left hand) {HP+15 Regen}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Vaults)   
   
   [ring of regeneration]
   
   It affects your health (+15).
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
 l - the ring of Greed {rC+ Regen}
   (You found it on level 26 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of regeneration]
   
   It protects you from cold.
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
 m - the ring "Xenep" {rN+ AC+5 Dex+4}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Tomb of the Ancients)   
   
   [ring of protection]
   
   It affects your AC (+5).
   It affects your dexterity (+4).
   It protects you from negative energy.
 n - the ring of the Mage (right hand) {Wiz MR++ Int+3}
   (You took it off an iron imp on level 7 of the Iron City of Dis)   
   
   [ring of wizardry]
   
   It improves your spell success rate.
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 o - the ring "Adykud" (on amulet) {MP+9 Dex+2 Int+4}
   (You found it on level 19 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of magical power]
   
   It affects your intelligence (+4).
   It affects your dexterity (+2).
   It affects your magic capacity (+9).
 V - the macabre finger necklace (around neck) {Ward rN+}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   [amulet of warding]
   
   It may prevent the melee attacks of summoned creatures.
   It protects you from negative energy.
 W - the amulet "Sken" {rMut Int+5}
   (You found it on level 25 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [amulet of resist mutation]
   
   It protects you from mutation.
   It affects your intelligence (+5).
 X - the amulet of Thaell {rCorr +Rage +Fly rC+ Slay-5}
   (You found it on level 9 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [amulet of resist corrosion]
   
   It protects you from acid and corrosion.
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (-5).
   It protects you from cold.
   It lets you fly.
   It lets you go berserk.
 Y - the amulet "Gimi Dea" {Stasis Dex+5 Int+3}
   (You found it on level 18 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [amulet of stasis]
   
   It prevents you from being teleported, slowed, hasted or paralysed.
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It affects your dexterity (+5).
Potions
 a - a potion of cancellation
 r - 3 potions of magic
 A - 11 potions of heal wounds
 E - 10 potions of agility
 F - 12 potions of restore abilities
 H - 22 potions of might
 N - 36 potions of curing
Magical staves
 Q - an uncursed staff of energy
Miscellaneous
 b - a crystal ball of energy
 e - a disc of storms
 G - a legendary deck of wonders {the Alchemist, drawn: 2}


   Skills:
 O Level 27 Fighting
   Level 20,0(25,1) Short Blades
   Level 24,4(26,2) Long Blades
 O Level 27 Axes
 - Level 22,0 Throwing
 O Level 27 Armour
 O Level 27 Dodging
 O Level 27 Stealth
 O Level 27 Shields
 O Level 27 Spellcasting
 O Level 27 Conjurations
 O Level 27 Charms
 * Level 26,5 Summonings
 O Level 27 Necromancy
 - Level 20,0 Translocations
 O Level 27 Transmutations
 O Level 27 Fire Magic
 O Level 27 Air Magic
 O Level 27 Earth Magic
   Level 4,0 Poison Magic
 - Level 17,0 Invocations
 O Level 27 Evocations


You couldn't memorise any spells.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Ring of Flames        Chrm/Fire      ##########   1%          7    None
b - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      ##########   2%          9    None
c - Tornado               Air            ##########   2%          9    None
d - Lehudib's Crystal Sp  Conj/Erth      ##########   1%          8    None
e - Song of Slaying       Chrm           ########     1%          2    None
f - Phase Shift           Tloc           ##########   1%          5    None
g - Controlled Blink      Tloc           N/A          1%          7    None
h - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ##########   1%          3    None
i - Sublimation of Blood  Necr           ##########   1%          2    None
j - Deflect Missiles      Chrm/Air       ##########   1%          6    None
k - Aura of Abjuration    Summ           ##########   1%          6    None
l - Necromutation         Trmt/Necr      ##########   1%          8    None
q - Death's Door          Chrm/Necr      ##########   1%          8    None
English is NOT my native language.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 08:50

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

I'm not sure what the point of posting a
  Code:
You completed 3 Ziggurats, and saw 81 of their levels.

zigscumming character is in that context but ok.

Haste is ridiculously useful but whether or not it's worth busting experience on learning the spell depends entirely on how few haste potions you have.

Siegurt wrote:While it's true that' it's relatively easy (depending on the race, and available equipement) to go from 10 to 15 AC, it's *much* harder to go from 40 AC to 60 AC, the amount of investment to get that addition 33% reduction gets harder and harder as the game progresses, haste takes roughly the same amount of investment as the game progresses, but provides the same benefit no matter what state you're in when you get it.

Getting a level 6 single-school spell up actually becomes cheaper and cheaper the further you go into the game, since the amount of experience (edit: available) increases and your primary skills become dramatically more expensive.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

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rockygargoyle, Sar

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 10:16

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

What stage of the game are you talking about? If you're talking about going from 40 to 60 AC then that sounds like extended.

I think you missed the point of this post. When examining things that are nondecreasing or nonincreasing (and especially if they are also continuous)--as is the case here with "investment to increase AC by 50%"*--it is useful and very easy to take a look at some endpoints to establish limits on how such a thing must behave. In this case, the point is not so much the actual numbers, but rather the fact that clearly the investment to increase AC by 50% increases as AC increases, whereas the investment to get haste is either constant or (as Bloax suggests) decreasing. It is therefore obvious because of the different behaviour that at some point it must be less investment to get haste than to increase your AC by 50%. The post makes no real claims about what that point is, other than loosely suggesting that it will happen in at least some games of crawl.

*I should note that this is a really bad example to use, since there are lots of other things going on that make "increase AC by 50%" a pretty useless thing to look at. Much better would be to examine "increase player damage output by 50%" or "increase player HP by 50%".

For what it's worth I do not believe that heavy armour casting is in a bad place in crawl right now, but I don't feel like trying to convince anyone else of that.

Also, by far the most powerful effect of haste is that you move more quickly, and no amount of skill XP can replace that effect. (Since it stacks with swiftness, you cannot even use that as an example.)

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Arrhythmia, duvessa, Lasty, rockygargoyle

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 14:10

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

The investment to get Haste castable on a character in plate armour usually is between 12 and 18-ish levels of charms, depending on circumstances (Str, Int, amount of +wiz available, etc). It takes even less to get Haste sufficiently castable that every !brilliance can be a !haste. The only time you can increase your AC by 50% by training skills for anything close to the same level of investment purely by training skills is by going from Ozo's Armour being uncastable to high spell power while wearing light armour. Of course, it's not a great comparison also because increasing your AC by 50% has a fairly different impact on your character compared with Haste.

Haste is a very strong effect not just because it makes playing like psuedo-fsim better, but because it makes everything you do faster. Trying to reduce its effect to one factor of a character is foolish given that it improves every facet of a character.

Moving away from Haste, getting something like Bolt of Cold castable in plate is entirely doable as well. Obviously, it's a significant investment (say, two schools at 16-ish), and all those skill levels mean that by the time you can cast it at all, you can cast it fairly well. The main drawbacks of this approach are 1) you probably don't have more than 20 Int, so your spellpower won't be gigantic, and 2) you can't branch out into related spells as easily as a light-armour character can. Nevertheless, having strongish, ranged bolt attacks on demand can be quite useful for some characters.

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rockygargoyle, Sar

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 20:06

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

*I should note that this is a really bad example to use, since there are lots of other things going on that make "increase AC by 50%" a pretty useless thing to look at. Much better would be to examine "increase player damage output by 50%" or "increase player HP by 50%".

Don't get stuck on "increasing AC by 50%" or increasing any other factor by 50%. That's ignoring two points I already made. First, like I said, you don't have to get that entire improvement from AC. You could get a little improvement from AC, a little from EV, a little from HP, and a little from damage, and they all multiply together to produce your combat effectiveness. And second, if you increase your combat effectiveness by only 25% instead of 50%, that's enough to compete with castable haste because it's "always-on" and it stacks with haste.

crate wrote:
What stage of the game are you talking about? If you're talking about going from 40 to 60 AC then that sounds like extended.

I think you missed the point of this post. When examining things that are nondecreasing or nonincreasing (and especially if they are also continuous)--as is the case here with "investment to increase AC by 50%"*--it is useful and very easy to take a look at some endpoints to establish limits on how such a thing must behave. In this case, the point is not so much the actual numbers, but rather the fact that clearly the investment to increase AC by 50% increases as AC increases, whereas the investment to get haste is either constant or (as Bloax suggests) decreasing. It is therefore obvious because of the different behaviour that at some point it must be less investment to get haste than to increase your AC by 50%. The post makes no real claims about what that point is, other than loosely suggesting that it will happen in at least some games of crawl.

Why are you saying this? You're just restating the exact same point he made. Maybe it was you who didn't understand me. Yes, "eventually" haste will become worthwhile. But the subject of the thread is "fighter mages," and just getting haste after 5 runes doesn't make you much of a fighter mage. Also note that increasing your defenses can involve upgrading to CPA, at which point haste is even harder to learn, so the investment to get haste is not always decreasing.

Also, by far the most powerful effect of haste is that you move more quickly, and no amount of skill XP can replace that effect. (Since it stacks with swiftness, you cannot even use that as an example.)


It's true that haste is important for walking speed. But how often do you actually need to use haste to run away with maximum speed, if you're a heavily armored tank, even if you are doing extended? Consumable haste should cover all those situations nicely.

Moving away from Haste, getting something like Bolt of Cold castable in plate is entirely doable as well. Obviously, it's a significant investment (say, two schools at 16-ish), and all those skill levels mean that by the time you can cast it at all, you can cast it fairly well. The main drawbacks of this approach are 1) you probably don't have more than 20 Int, so your spellpower won't be gigantic, and 2) you can't branch out into related spells as easily as a light-armour character can. Nevertheless, having strongish, ranged bolt attacks on demand can be quite useful for some characters.

You're better off with evocables or god abilities.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 20:30

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Berder wrote:getting haste after 5 runes

Around Vaults or so.

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 21:02

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Just because you can get it around vaults doesn't mean you should. The whole question is when is it good to get it versus simply increasing your physical skills. At vaults, there's probably still plenty of room for improvement in your physical skills.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 21:23

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Berder wrote:Just because you can get it around vaults doesn't mean you should. The whole question is when is it good to get it versus simply increasing your physical skills. At vaults, there's probably still plenty of room for improvement in your physical skills.


In many cases, you can and you absolutely should.

Taking an orc that is not worshiping Trog as an example, just before you start vaults, you can easily have a battleax at min-delay, and have around 18 armor, 18 fighting, and 15 dodging. Your stats might look something like 20 str, 8 int, 18 dex.

At that point, your core skills are very high, and will require a lot of experience to push higher. You can keep investing large amounts of experience to get a few extra points of AC and EV, along with a bit more HP and damage from fighting. Or you can start getting some spells online. For a lot of characters in such a situation, being able to cast spells will make your character much stronger. Of course it depends on what exactly your character has available, what gear you have, and so on, but like, even minotaurs (worse intelligence and much worse casting aptitudes compared to orcs) can and usually should get some spells online once their core skills are high.

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 21:24

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Just because you can get it around vaults doesn't mean you should. The whole question is when is it good to get it versus simply increasing your physical skills. At vaults, there's probably still plenty of room for improvement in your physical skills.


Which physical skills? With HO, DD, etc., you can expect to have min-delay on your weapon (assuming you picked a good aptitude for a two-hander or a one-hander), 15ish Fighting and 20ish Armour with your Haste in vaults, no problem. This means diminishing returns on these skills. Depending on your consumables, you might want to take dodging instead, but on races with relatively low dex and dodging aptitude like the aforementioned DD and HO haste generally seems better. On Mi I'm usually conflicted. And it's not like returns only start appearing after you get Haste, if you can access Repel Missiles, Swiftness, Regeneration etc. on the way to Haste. Think about how many AC/EV/HP points you would sacrifice for any of these spells and then think of that in terms of skills, considering that your fighting and armour will already be high.

It's true that haste is important for walking speed. But how often do you actually need to use haste to run away with maximum speed, if you're a heavily armored tank, even if you are doing extended? Consumable haste should cover all those situations nicely.


walking speed =/= running away. Your position is important as a heavily armoured tank, in fact moreso than a conjurer, summoner or ranged fighter, which are all quite effective regardless of their position. Not to mention that yeah, I do want to still run away quite frequently when I'm wearing plate armour. If we are talking about the vaults/depths stage of the game, reliably escaping dragons, giants, many uniques etc. is important even if you have 30-40 AC, a whole lot of monsters aren't rendered ineffective by that.

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Lasty, Sar

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 21:39

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Spoiler: show
The number of situations where moving faster is important is like an order of magnitude larger than the number of situations where the extra damage from attacking faster is important ... I would actually suggest that you are entirely backward in suggesting that you can use consumable haste for movement but the spell helps your damage; I would suggest instead that actually you usually get enough consumable haste for damaging things but having haste spell opens up tons of opportunities to position better. But this is wildly off-topic at this point.

Don't get stuck on "increasing AC by 50%" or increasing any other factor by 50%.

Why do you think I made it a footnote?


Why are you saying this? You're just restating the exact same point he made. Maybe it was you who didn't understand me. Yes, "eventually" haste will become worthwhile. But the subject of the thread is "fighter mages," and just getting haste after 5 runes doesn't make you much of a fighter mage.

Two things:
1) I never was personally arguing about whether haste in plate is reasonable to get in a 3-rune game or less. I do personally believe it is, but for my own reasons I specifically said I am not going to try to argue such:
For what it's worth I do not believe that heavy armour casting is in a bad place in crawl right now, but I don't feel like trying to convince anyone else of that.

The post I was quoting of course never really supported level 6 spells in plate being a good idea in a 3 rune game. I said that in my previous post.
2) You are asserting that if we assume that haste in plate is not a reasonable thing in a 3 rune game, then it is a problem. I think you should establish this first. It seems to me that the post I was quoting does not think that this is a problem. I personally believe that haste in plate is reasonable in a 3 rune game (it is very borderline for crate_crawl, which has something like 1/3 as much xp as a 3 rune game if I exclude v:5) but again will not elaborate on that.

FWIW I do think that swampDA/mottledDA is basically always better than plate if you are casting spells. I am not sure if I would say that is desirable. I would say that "free" encumbrance for spell success should have gone away when the evp->ER change happened (both for gameplay and for clarity reasons), and I think that would be a better situation than what we have right now.

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 21:45

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Oh, and as far as the original suggestion of a "tanky caster race", I very much doubt that will ever get added into crawl as a just-aptitude-defined race. See: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14357&p=198744#p198744

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 22:24

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Sure you can get a battleaxe to mindelay, but if you find an exec axe?

I ran a simple test in wizmode. Created a HOFi, dropped the shield, trained maces 40% armor 20% fighting 20% evocations 20%. Got plate, boots, helmet, gloves. Used 8 scrolls of enchant armour. Set level to 18, training skills, to get about the xp you might have entering vaults. Then I put on a +5 ring of str because wizmode doesn't train player-choice stats when you change your xl. Result: AC 30 EV 8, HP=168. Str 26, Int 8, Dex 10. Maces and flails 20.5, fighting 16.8, armour 15.5, evocations 15.2.

Now, training charms 100% and setting XL to 21 training skills, gives charms 17.6. Hit points increased to 190. With one ring of wizardry, haste is castable at 12% fail, which is acceptable. So, let's take that as a baseline.

Set level back to 18, not training skills. Set charms back to level 0.0. Trained armor 50%, fighting 50% to XL 21. result: 207 hp, AC 33. Fighting got set to 22.0, armour got set to 20.4.

According to this table of damage reduction:
  Code:
>>> crawl.ev_ac_table(1,65,1,1,10,1,0.39,crawl.orbguardian)
ac\ev 1     2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9     10   
1     1.05  1.07  1.09  1.11  1.13  1.15  1.18  1.20  1.22  1.25 
2     1.09  1.11  1.13  1.15  1.18  1.20  1.22  1.25  1.27  1.30 
3     1.11  1.13  1.15  1.18  1.20  1.22  1.24  1.27  1.29  1.32 
4     1.16  1.18  1.20  1.22  1.25  1.27  1.29  1.32  1.35  1.37 
5     1.18  1.20  1.22  1.25  1.27  1.29  1.32  1.34  1.37  1.40 
6     1.23  1.25  1.27  1.30  1.32  1.35  1.37  1.40  1.43  1.46 
7     1.25  1.27  1.30  1.32  1.35  1.37  1.40  1.43  1.46  1.49 
8     1.31  1.33  1.35  1.38  1.40  1.43  1.46  1.49  1.52  1.55 
9     1.33  1.35  1.38  1.40  1.43  1.46  1.49  1.52  1.55  1.58 
10    1.39  1.41  1.44  1.47  1.49  1.52  1.55  1.58  1.62  1.65 
11    1.42  1.44  1.47  1.49  1.52  1.55  1.58  1.61  1.65  1.68 
12    1.48  1.51  1.54  1.56  1.59  1.62  1.65  1.69  1.72  1.76 
13    1.51  1.54  1.56  1.59  1.62  1.65  1.69  1.72  1.76  1.79 
14    1.58  1.61  1.64  1.67  1.70  1.73  1.77  1.80  1.84  1.88 
15    1.61  1.64  1.67  1.70  1.73  1.77  1.80  1.84  1.88  1.91 
16    1.69  1.72  1.75  1.79  1.82  1.86  1.89  1.93  1.97  2.01 
17    1.73  1.76  1.79  1.82  1.86  1.89  1.93  1.97  2.01  2.05 
18    1.82  1.85  1.88  1.92  1.95  1.99  2.03  2.07  2.11  2.16 
19    1.85  1.89  1.92  1.96  1.99  2.03  2.07  2.11  2.15  2.20 
20    1.95  1.99  2.02  2.06  2.10  2.14  2.18  2.22  2.27  2.32 
21    1.99  2.03  2.07  2.10  2.14  2.18  2.23  2.27  2.32  2.36 
22    2.10  2.14  2.18  2.22  2.26  2.30  2.35  2.40  2.44  2.50 
23    2.15  2.19  2.23  2.27  2.31  2.35  2.40  2.45  2.50  2.55 
24    2.27  2.31  2.35  2.40  2.44  2.49  2.54  2.59  2.64  2.69 
25    2.32  2.36  2.40  2.45  2.49  2.54  2.59  2.64  2.70  2.75 
26    2.46  2.50  2.55  2.59  2.64  2.69  2.75  2.80  2.86  2.92 
27    2.51  2.56  2.60  2.65  2.70  2.75  2.81  2.86  2.92  2.98 
28    2.67  2.72  2.77  2.82  2.87  2.92  2.98  3.04  3.10  3.17 
29    2.73  2.78  2.83  2.88  2.93  2.99  3.05  3.11  3.17  3.24 
30    2.91  2.96  3.01  3.07  3.12  3.18  3.25  3.31  3.38  3.45 
31    2.97  3.02  3.08  3.14  3.20  3.26  3.32  3.39  3.45  3.53 
32    3.17  3.23  3.29  3.35  3.41  3.48  3.54  3.61  3.69  3.76 
33    3.25  3.30  3.36  3.43  3.49  3.56  3.63  3.70  3.77  3.85 
34    3.47  3.54  3.60  3.67  3.73  3.81  3.88  3.96  4.04  4.12 
35    3.55  3.62  3.68  3.75  3.82  3.90  3.97  4.05  4.13  4.22 
36    3.64  3.70  3.77  3.84  3.91  3.99  4.06  4.15  4.23  4.32 
37    3.72  3.79  3.86  3.93  4.00  4.08  4.16  4.24  4.33  4.42 
38    3.81  3.88  3.95  4.02  4.10  4.18  4.26  4.34  4.43  4.52 
39    3.90  3.97  4.04  4.12  4.20  4.28  4.36  4.45  4.54  4.63 
40    3.99  4.07  4.14  4.22  4.30  4.38  4.46  4.55  4.64  4.74 
41    4.09  4.16  4.24  4.31  4.40  4.48  4.57  4.66  4.75  4.85 
42    4.18  4.26  4.34  4.42  4.50  4.58  4.67  4.77  4.86  4.96 
43    4.28  4.36  4.43  4.52  4.60  4.69  4.78  4.88  4.98  5.08 
44    4.38  4.45  4.54  4.62  4.71  4.80  4.89  4.99  5.09  5.19 
45    4.47  4.55  4.64  4.72  4.81  4.90  5.00  5.10  5.20  5.31 
46    4.57  4.65  4.74  4.82  4.91  5.01  5.11  5.21  5.31  5.42 
47    4.67  4.75  4.84  4.93  5.02  5.12  5.22  5.32  5.43  5.54 
48    4.77  4.85  4.94  5.03  5.12  5.22  5.32  5.43  5.54  5.66 
49    4.86  4.95  5.04  5.13  5.23  5.33  5.43  5.54  5.65  5.77 
50    4.96  5.05  5.14  5.23  5.33  5.44  5.54  5.65  5.77  5.89 
51    5.06  5.15  5.24  5.34  5.44  5.54  5.65  5.76  5.88  6.00 
52    5.15  5.25  5.34  5.44  5.54  5.65  5.76  5.87  5.99  6.12 
53    5.25  5.35  5.44  5.54  5.65  5.75  5.87  5.98  6.11  6.23 
54    5.35  5.44  5.54  5.65  5.75  5.86  5.98  6.09  6.22  6.35 
55    5.45  5.54  5.64  5.75  5.86  5.97  6.08  6.21  6.33  6.46 
56    5.54  5.64  5.74  5.85  5.96  6.07  6.19  6.32  6.44  6.58 
57    5.64  5.74  5.85  5.95  6.07  6.18  6.30  6.43  6.56  6.69 
58    5.74  5.84  5.95  6.06  6.17  6.29  6.41  6.54  6.67  6.81 
59    5.84  5.94  6.05  6.16  6.27  6.39  6.52  6.65  6.78  6.92 
60    5.93  6.04  6.15  6.26  6.38  6.50  6.63  6.76  6.90  7.04 
61    6.03  6.14  6.25  6.36  6.48  6.61  6.74  6.87  7.01  7.16 
62    6.13  6.24  6.35  6.47  6.59  6.71  6.85  6.98  7.12  7.27 
63    6.22  6.34  6.45  6.57  6.69  6.82  6.95  7.09  7.24  7.39 
64    6.32  6.43  6.55  6.67  6.80  6.93  7.06  7.20  7.35  7.50 
65    6.42  6.53  6.65  6.77  6.90  7.03  7.17  7.31  7.46  7.62 


The damage reduction against an orb guardian went from 3.31 to 3.70. And the hit points went from 190 to 207. The total improvement to defense was (3.70 / 3.31) * (207 / 190) = 1.22. That's about half of the defensive benefit from haste - and it's always-on! Plus you have an extra non-wizardry ring slot for a resistance or something.
Last edited by Berder on Monday, 12th January 2015, 22:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 22:27

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

mikee wrote:Those types of example are only correct when you view the entire game as being trapped down a well with a monster, the two of you just wailing on each other all day.


And

crate wrote:Also, by far the most powerful effect of haste is that you move more quickly, and no amount of skill XP can replace that effect. (Since it stacks with swiftness, you cannot even use that as an example.)
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 22:30

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

fwiw I'm positive that training both spellcasting and charms in some ratio is more xp-efficient than training just charms even just for spell success, and it has other benefits also.

You can use @ to set player stats in wizmode.

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 22:33

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Berder wrote:stuff

tbh I have no idea what any of that means

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 22:40

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

crate wrote:fwiw I'm positive that training both spellcasting and charms in some ratio is more xp-efficient than training just charms even just for spell success, and it has other benefits also.

After reading this, I tried spellcasting 33% charms 66% and got a 14% fail rate with wizardry. Some small level of spellcasting must be better than pure charms, but it doesn't seem to make a big difference. Consider the hill orc -3 aptitude for spellcasting.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 22:43

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

I would have invested in int instead of str there. Half the defensive benefit that haste gives is miserable, by the way, that's a huge difference. "always on" is hardly an argument when you can simply cast haste in any dangerous situation anway, sure it makes a slight difference because you spend a turn casting haste but not nearly enough to compensate. The wizardry ring slot isn't going to compensate for the difference either. And of course, in addition, what nago quoted. And we aren't talking about haste vs armour/dodging, we are talking about haste + a whole lot of other excellent charms vs armour/dodging.
Last edited by cerebovssquire on Monday, 12th January 2015, 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 22:48

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Just for future reference, you can set your base stats (str, int, dex) in wizmode by hitting &@, bit simpler than creating jewelry to mimic stat ups.

There are some nits one could pick with your example (some spellcasting training rather than only charms would be more realistic and also more efficient, 26 strength is high even for plate IMO [edit: actually not, nvm] and you'd maybe get better mileage out of some of those points going into int, etc.), but I admit those are fairly minor points and it is fine as an example, so let's set them aside.

In the case you raise, and using your own framework, the choice is between a boost that is roughly equivalent to half of what we might call the "non-tactical" or "fsim" benefit that haste provides, all the time, versus being able to apply the full advantages of haste effectively (if not literally) whenever you want it. The latter seems much stronger, and this is ignoring the fact that those levels in charms also means being able to cast (perhaps with a bit of extra training in another skill) regeneration, repel missiles, spectral weapon, control teleport, etc.

That doesn't mean every character should learn haste, of course. Maybe you found a wand of haste and the game has been rich in ?recharging, but if a character with a well-supplied haste-wand happened to find a book of the warp and the spell blink, then you could make a strong argument for investing the experience to learn phase shift and control teleport and perhaps warp weapon (along with any other available low-level charms that become usable by getting control teleport online). Magic is very good, and there are lot of spells that are strong enough for melee-focused characters in heavy armor that it often makes sense to pick some of them up eventually, unless you are forbidden to by your god or you found armor of the dragon king relatively early and decided to base your character entirely around that, or something.

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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 23:15

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Sar wrote:tbh I have no idea what any of that means

It's what science looks like when you only have eyes for what you're trying to prove.
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Post Monday, 12th January 2015, 23:23

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

26 strength is high even for plate IMO and you'd maybe get better mileage out of some of those points going into int

very much doubt it

edit: after checking in wizmode, 28 str 6 int gives better success than 26 str 8 int at 15.5 armour!

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Post Tuesday, 13th January 2015, 00:45

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Berder wrote:And then maybe you find a wand of hasting...

And this is the crux of the argument against training lots of charms for haste. For all you haste (the spell) addicts, how often do you haste in a typical 3-rune game? I haste maybe 10 times total, half of those in Zot:5. Why sink xp into charms for haste if you get enough of the spell for free via potions/wand?

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Post Tuesday, 13th January 2015, 00:52

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

I like to cast haste more than 10 times.

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Post Tuesday, 13th January 2015, 01:19

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

SaidTheAlligatorKingToHisSon wrote:
Berder wrote:And then maybe you find a wand of hasting...

And this is the crux of the argument against training lots of charms for haste. For all you haste (the spell) addicts, how often do you haste in a typical 3-rune game? I haste maybe 10 times total, half of those in Zot:5. Why sink xp into charms for haste if you get enough of the spell for free via potions/wand?

Yeah, in a 3 rune game I generally have more than enough consumable haste. And don't forget evocable berserk - not as widely applicable as haste and a little dangerous, but in a controlled situation it remains better than haste without using any charges/potions.
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Post Tuesday, 13th January 2015, 01:46

the real problem with heavy armour casting

I should probably point out that this whole "haste in plate" discussion is pretty irrelevant to this topic's original point.

The idea behind suggesting a "tanky caster race" as it was called in the OP is that making armour apt better would favor plate armour casting. I posit that this is not, in fact, the truth.

A key thing to note in choosing armour for a character who casts spells is that you get 0.8 aevp of penalty (the number here doesn't matter too much, just that it's noticeably not 0) that does not affect spellcasting success at all. In practice, what this means is that ring mail, swampDA, and anything lighter than that basically doesn't affect spellcasting in a meaningful fashion.

For example: haste at 12 charms, 8 spellcasting, with hufi starting stats and no armour is 21% fail.
At 0 armour skill, when I put on swampDA, that increases to 24%. Pretty much unnoticeable.
If I wear plate armour instead, I get 100% fail chance.
If I raise armour skill to 15, haste in plate is still (!) at 100% fail; haste in swampDA is now at 21% fail (!). Storm dragon armour puts haste at 98% fail, fire dragon armour at 45% fail. 10 ER scale mail is 34% fail. Realistically the penalties on the heavier armours will be a bit smaller than this since I'm testing with 16 str, but I was more bringing up how easy it is to completely eliminate the spellcasting success penalty from swampDA.

It turns out armour skill is pretty good even if you go down to 5 or so base AC on your body armour; you're still at 9 total base AC after aux slots, after all. So even ring mail and steamDA come out fine here.

Raising armour aptitude does basically nothing to influence my decision about wearing swampDA vs plate armour, since the extra xp cost of haste in plate is very heavily pushed into raising charms and spellcasting, instead of into raising armour skill. After all, 15 armour skill is pretty good for swampDA or mottledDA or QDA and even good for ring mail or steamDA, and those armours all have no more than 7 encumbrance. While individually finding a good ring mail or the dragon armours is not common, finding at least one armour that fits into that category is not that rare. You should also note that it is precisely this encumbrance value that is the sweet spot; going up to FDA is a pretty big success rate hit and even scale mail is noticeable.

If the "free" encumbrance for spellcasting were removed, then you're forced into steamDA or a robe to not take spellcasting success hits, and now plate armour does start to look more attractive. Also, it helps clarity, because having the first ~7-8 ER not do anything for spellcasting is definitely not how you would assume the system works. (It is easy enough to figure out from playing, but...).

Really the problem is not that casting spells if you assume you're going to be wearing plate is a bad investment; it's more that the "wearing plate" part is pretty questionable if you're going to be casting spells after how big of a buff stuff in the swampDA encumbrance range got (with no real compensation to higher ER armours) after the evp->encumbrance change.

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Post Tuesday, 13th January 2015, 02:28

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Regardless of everything, a tanky caster is always going to have more trouble casting spells than an EV based hybrid, and as a result is going to have fewer and lower level spells than the EV based hybrid. If you want to equalize this, the tanky caster race would need a special mutation to reduce or eliminate (!) the fail rate of magic in heavy armor.

Gargoyles though, are the AC caster race. They can't cast well in heavy armor (like everyone else) but they don't need heavy armor to have high AC.
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Post Tuesday, 13th January 2015, 11:44

Re: I CAST FIST: Tanky Caster Race

Maybe it would be interesting to have a half-golem type race that has a different relationship with armour than most.

Most characters get significant penalties to spell casting in heavy armour, and need quite a lot of training to fix it - compared to that, the penalty to using weaponry is small.

Now say, you have a golem type race, who is able to channel spells through armour, resulting in a much smaller penalty to spellcasting but due to its hard-ish nature has a lot more trouble using weapons while in heavy armour. They could also be geared towards elemental magic and get racial bonuses from the one they are most skilled in (like a draconian with flavour depending on your skill set).

Just brainstorming here

EDIT: Most heavy armour casting proposals are basically about giving a huge armour aptitude, horrible ev aptitude, good magic apts and mediocre weaponry apts. This would not be as railroady, playing without heavier armour would be possible and maybe even optimal to a melee oriented build.

Basically, most races that can do both casting and melee, you are lying somewhere between lightly armoured caster/fighter and very highly armoured brawler. With this race this could be turned around maybe, the spectrum being lightly armoured caster/fighter and highly armoured caster?

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