Demigods and their stats

[Brannock]

Currently they have those racial advantages: Bonus stats awarded every even level, 10% extra HP, 20% extra MP, and +4 MR per level. Compared to Humans, Demigods get 1 extra MR per level compared to humans, seven extra randomly-assigned stats gained via XL, and ten extra base stats at character creation -- along with extra health and mana. In exchange, they give up the ability to worship gods, and advance in levels and skills slowly.

Demigods are seen as bland by a significant portion of players. Prior proposals to "revamp" Dg often involve giving them divine abilities, followers, eating altars, or a Demonspawn-esque mutation system. None of those proposals were deemed acceptable. The consistent pattern I notice in all those proposals is that they all reject the basic premise of the current Demigod, try to find a design more suitable to the proposer's idea of what "Demigod" is supposed to be, and slap on a totally new mechanic to a race that already has an established design space. Frankly, I a. don't care what a species is named and b. I think the current design of Demigod is perfectly acceptable. Rename them "Golem" or something if it makes you happier, a construct is going to be way more physically formidable than humanoids, and they don't have the sentience to worship the Gods, or whatever justification you want to use. It's irrelevant to their role in the game.

More than any other race, Demigods are a race of total self-reliance. They don't worship the Gods, instead using their large stat bonuses to squeeze every last bit out of the tools discovered in the Dungeon. They can't fall back on Disaster Area or Greater Destruction or Divine Vigor or Cleansing Blast or Brothers in Arms: they have to work through their inventory full of wands, evocables, and consumables for emergency situations and spells/gear to cover the rest. I find this a fun change-up compared to typical play and I don't find Demigods to be bland. I do think they could be made more distinct though, especially from each other as most Demigods gravitate towards hybridization especially in the postgame.

But, what specifically already makes Demigods unique in Crawl? Huge stat bonuses and no divine worship. Make them more distinctive by building upon that.

• Full control over all XL-derived stat gain allocation instead of random distribution on XL%2 (13 increases) and controlled distribution at XL%3 (9 increases). Total of 22 targeted stat distributions. Allow Demigods to truly be masters of their own destiny: they can become exceptionally strong, intelligent, or agile by specializing in a single particular stat, or they can take advantage of their overall large stat bonuses and become balanced in all stats as they would under the old system. This would help further distinguish one particular Demigod character from another, especially when many Demigod characters tend towards hybridization.
• innate Sustain Abilities. The divine bodies of Demigods are resistant to decay and degeneration. Thanks to the relative lack of stat damage in the game, this probably has the most relevance for spellcasters, protecting them against penalties from Summon Horrible Things, crystal balls, Wucad Mu.

[Lasty]

I'm just happy this proposal isn't another "moar demonspawn! moar gods!"

[XuaXua]

I know it isn't noted in the proposal, but your description of "innate Sustain Abilities" implies "innate +rRot".

[PleasingFungus]

These would be good suggestions if Demigods needed buffs, but I'm not sure how they make demigods more interesting to those who don't currently like them, and I'm not sure that demigods need buffs, either.

e: they are very nice suggestions that fit nicely with Demigod's established niche; I'm just not sure that they fill a design need.

[XuaXua]

I'm not sure how they make demigods more interesting to those who don't currently like them.

I'd say the largest complaint about Demigods is that they aren't very customizable (what with not being able to follow a deity), and the full attribute-control would go some ways to alleviate that... that is, if attributes have been given enough mechanical significance.

That said, I can take-or-leave the +sustAb (and +rRot), but I can see the rationale for it.

[Brannock]

On average a Demigod should have a 4.33/4.33/4.33 stat gain split from their randomized distribution at XL 27. Allowing full control over their stat distribution would mean (potentially) a 13/0/0 distribution, for a gain of 8-9 stats in their favored ability. This comes at the cost of 4-5 stats in the other two abilities. So while a Demigod could potentially have sky-high Intelligence (greatly easing spellcasting) or Dexterity (greatly boosting EV) it still comes at a roughly equitable cost to their other two stats. A full intelligence or dexterity Demigod will be sitting at roughly 11 strength (before background modifiers) and will be unable to wear heavier armor without significant penalties, compared to a more balanced Demigod who can take full advantage of heavier armors while still capable of spellcasting and notable EV.

Not everyone will like Demigods, and that's okay. I personally love Draconians. Draconians have a very "meaty" feel to their flavor and mechanics thanks to their randomized colors that can subtly shift your gameplay choices while having a lot of "punch" on the transformation. Demigods are an interesting concept, but currently missing that "meaty" feel to playing them, something subtle that would really make playing them feel like a significant positive choice rather than simply a conduct restriction.

I suspect that being able to ensure that your stat bonuses get focused on Intelligence early on to cast spells from a powerful book, or onto Dexterity to boost your EV and SH, or onto Strength to more easily shoulder the burden of the heavy armour randart you discovered early on, would be a significant boost to the "feel" of the race. No matter what a Demigod finds early on in the Dungeon, he knows that he can shape his stats to make the best use of that powerful item. Should he not find anything significantly outside the power curve? He can stay balanced and ready to act as a jack of all trades.

re: innate Sustain Abilities, I've always found it odd that a race whose entire selling advantage is their significant stats is vulnerable to stat damage. "Play Demigod and have guaranteed awesome stats of your preference." I don't care so much about rRot but I can see XuaXua's thematic justification for it.

[Baldu3]

The effect of complete control of all stat allocations would mean for me on final stats: 15-20 in strength, 20-30 in intelligence, rest in agility. In other words, I estimate that stat allocations would not be much different then what they are right now except an average of 3-5 less strength split between the other 2 stats.

If demigods had rot resist and/or sustain abilities I wouldn't mind but I might not notice at all since those things almost never happen anyway for me since I don't like pan/hell/abyss so I only do those areas once every few months, for the part of the game I play I ignore those conditions until they stack enough to make a difference, then I control-f a solution, then I go back to ignoring them.

I guess I consider your proposed changes not really impactful but rather... flavorful!

[Hirsch I]

thing is: randomly allocated stats dont change your gameplay. the fact that you might get 1 point in str, or got this 1 point before, will not influence if you are willing to use that cool heavy armor you found early. but if you know you can allocate your remaining points in STR, this provides you a choice. I believe this is a good thing.

[Brannock]

Don't care one bit about what Dg are named.

There's a problem with the proposal. What is to be done about double prompts at XL 6/12/18/24? Asking the player twice what stat to boost is inelegant. Choose one stat, get +2 to it?

[ion_frigate]

What is to be done about double prompts at XL 6/12/18/24? Asking the player twice what stat to boost is inelegant. Choose one stat, get +2 to it?

One solution would just be to move around what levels they get stat boosts on. Or perhaps better, just give them stat boosts every level and slightly nerf their starting stats to compensate.

[XuaXua]

Or perhaps better, just give them stat boosts every level and slightly nerf their starting stats to compensate.

+1, would read again.

[Bloax]

dpeg's solution of giving double stat increases every time to reduce the amount of prompts is a good one
although then it would be 2x stat prompts every 2 levels to not screw Dg over a bit

[and into]

If you want to discuss possible demigod name rebranding, please do so here:

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13636

(If you don't like what I named the thread, start another thread in CYC to come up with a better name and I'll change it.)

From here on out please keep this thread about discussing the mechanics of Brannock's proposal for Demigod reform. Thank you!

[Brannock]

Or perhaps better, just give them stat boosts every level and slightly nerf their starting stats to compensate.

Take note that sacrificing base stats for XL stats is a hit to Demigod's early game, which is traditionally their strength: high base stats and high health values mean that Demigods are more likely to survive the early game (pre-Temple) than other races. For many goodplayers, surviving the early game makes winning the game vastly more likely.

[XuaXua]

I think the sheer volume of "thanks" (13 so far) on the OP reflects the desire of the player base for some functional change to demigod attribute distribution.

If anyone is outwardly concerned about having full control over the guidance of the 22 attribute point distributions (as I read it, it's 22 points), keep some of them random.

My proposal would be to force the first 8 attributes to be random, then allow the player to choose the final 14, representing growing capability to control destiny.

[Lasty]

I think the sheer volume of "thanks" (13 so far) on the OP reflects the desire of 13 people to have a change similar to the one in the OP.

If you want to argue for best course of action by popularity, it would at least be good form (though still by no means dispositive) to give a voting opportunity to those who would prefer no change.

[nicolae]

I think the sheer volume of "thanks" (13 so far) on the OP reflects the desire of 13 people to have a change similar to the one in the OP.

If you want to argue for best course of action by popularity, it would at least be good form (though still by no means dispositive) to give a voting opportunity to those who would prefer no change.

Yes: 13
No: (Number of Tavern posters) - 13

[Tiktacy]

I think the sheer volume of "thanks" (13 so far) on the OP reflects the desire of 13 people to have a change similar to the one in the OP.

If you want to argue for best course of action by popularity, it would at least be good form (though still by no means dispositive) to give a voting opportunity to those who would prefer no change.

I think the sheer volume of "thanks" (13 so far) on the OP reflects the desire of 13 people supporting the idea of a thread that explains why Demigods don't need a reform, and what it would ACTUALLY look like if it did.

Seriously, this OP deserves all of his thanks. I don't care nearly as much about suggestion to improve demigods as I do about his explanation of the real design goals for demigods.

[o_O]

I like the stat customization, DG's main ability is high stats so full customization makes sense for them. It also makes sense that they should hit really hard with either weapons or spells in the later game.

The innate sustain abilities sounds like an unnecessary buff for a species that is already reasonably strong, resistant to stat drain due to naturally high attributes and has access to all equipment slots.

[Quazifuji]

I'll just chime in and say that I basically never play demigods because gods are one of my favorite parts of character customization, but I think that full stat allocation control would make them more interesting and I'd consider giving them a whirl every once in a while if it happened. I'd still play them pretty rarely, but it might be more often than never. The novelty of being able to guide my stats depending on what kind of build I wanted, and having the option to go full dex and str if I wanted to just be a super tanky melee dude or have a bajillion intelligence as a caster, sounds much more entertaining to me than the current "all your stats are really good so you should try to take advantage of that" situation.

[johlstei]

Choosing all of your stat increases could also be a cool god power even if it wasn't given to demigods. It'd be kind of a shame because it fits their design niche so well but I think it's worth doing either way.

[Sandman25]

Choosing all of your stat increases could also be a cool god power even if it wasn't given to demigods. It'd be kind of a shame because it fits their design niche so well but I think it's worth doing either way.

Focus card and Jiyva can do something like that.

[Greyr]

Choosing all of your stat increases could also be a cool god power even if it wasn't given to demigods. It'd be kind of a shame because it fits their design niche so well but I think it's worth doing either way.

Focus card and Jiyva can do something like that.

Good luck finding a focus card

[Happylisk]

These would be good suggestions if Demigods needed buffs, but I'm not sure how they make demigods more interesting to those who don't currently like them, and I'm not sure that demigods need buffs, either.

e: they are very nice suggestions that fit nicely with Demigod's established niche; I'm just not sure that they fill a design need.

I think I see a need. Demigods, due to their stats, are the consummate hybrid. But there's a lot of ways you can be a hybrid. Maybe you want heavier armor and low level spells, maybe you want light armor and higher level spells, maybe you want to fight and throw, maybe you want to primarily cast with a robust melee when mp is low.

A demigod who finds an early stack of javelins might want to prioritize strength; find CPM, and you might want STR and Int but no dex; a demigod who finds an early book of changes might want to neglect int to maximize blade hands damage. A demigod who finds an early book of Fire, Earth, Ice, or Annihilations might want to pump int heavily early on. All of these are situations where access to high stats are a boon, provided you could direct the stats. But in the current implementation of demigod stat gain, your character could not as quickly adapt.

[Bloax]

I wouldn't mind playing a race where you can very specifically choose where to pump your huge stats into, in fact I'd play it much more than I would play a race that "forces you to adapt" by flinging stats all over the place.
Currently the most random race would be demonspawn, so an orderly counterpart in demigods would also fit very well. (and now critics will point out how this is beside the point and yadda yadda no pointing out fun little things allowed)

>supporting anything bloax supports

[damiac]

Sounds like it would makes Demigods a little less boring. At least then you can adapt your character to the dungeon better, which is a niche that doesn't really exist otherwise.

[Bloax]

Wow I sure am posting random things a lot.
But yeah, tiles build of trunk with 2x picked stat every 2 levels (including xl27) for Dg right here.

here's a patch

Edit: They seem pretty fun.

[Greyr]

Wow I sure am posting random things a lot.
But yeah, tiles build of trunk with 2x picked stat every 2 levels (including xl27) for Dg right here.

here's a patch

Edit: They seem pretty fun.

Whether or not this gets officially implemented, I will return to this whenever I'm in the mood to roll a Dg. Very fun.

[Bloax]

Well it's on mantits now too, so let's wait and see.

And yeah, the punchy statgain is quite nice.

[XuaXua]

The old way, it was 22 +1 stat increases (9 controlled). Total +attributes: 22
Now, is it 14 +2 stat increases (14 controlled)? Total +attributes: 28

[Bloax]

I accept it as a consequence in exchange for increased mobility, because with all those stats you have at your disposal you're not screwed over if you find some great items early enough that differ from the build you were going for. (Later on you're both restricted in stats and skills, but you'll probably do fine without switching to an entirely different thing at that point anyhow.)

[johlstei]

It's probably more likely to be accepted if you don't try to also change the balance of an already-strong race at the same time. Letting demigods choose their own stats is cool and fitting, buffing them beyond that because you were "in the neighborhood" is not.

[XuaXua]

I accept it as a consequence in exchange for increased mobility, because with all those stats you have at your disposal you're not screwed over if you find some great items early enough that differ from the build you were going for. (Later on you're both restricted in stats and skills, but you'll probably do fine without switching to an entirely different thing at that point anyhow.)

I think you misunderstand.

What you've created is not a consequence, it's a benefit. You've increased the number of +attributes to 28, which is stronger in general than the current version by 6. Plus, they're guided, which is even stronger.
Simply giving full guidance to the original +22 is a huge benefit in itself.

Note that I have not read your code to see if you've compensated by reducing starting attributes (edit: I have and it does not appear to be the case).
I also do need someone to confirm that the patch now makes it +28 guided attributes in +2 chunks, and that the original was +22 mostly unguided attributes in +1 chunks.

[Brannock]

Demigod won't see the full benefit of that +28 until they're at XL27, which is quite a feat to accomplish with a -2 XP aptitude. While it's undeniably a buff I'm unsure if it's as much of a buff as it seems.

Starting stats can easily be lowered to accommodate this, or tweaking them in some other way if the code to resolve the double allocation problem is too much of a problem for the current Dg stat gain loadout.

[johlstei]

Like why not make a version where it doesn't change and they get prompted to increase their skills exactly when they would have before? Sometimes they will get two in one level, sometimes they will get 3 in a row, so what?

[XuaXua]

Demigod won't see the full benefit of that +28 until they're at XL27

They'll see the guidance buff at XL 2.
They'll start seeing the +28 benefit starting at XL 23, when the total racial attribute increases exceed +22.

I'll leave it up to others to determine how much of a buff this is, game-play wise.

[Bloax]

so you would rather remember that you increase a stat by 1 at xl2, 1 at xl3, 1 at xl4, 2 at xl6, 1 at xl8, 1 at xl9, 1 at xl10, 2 at xl12, 1 at xl 14, 1 at xl15, 1 at xl16, 2 at xl18, 1 at xl20, 1 at xl21, 1 at x22, 2 at xl24, 1 at xl26 and 1 at xl27 instead of "you increase a stat by 2 every 2 levels" just for the sake of breaking the existing Dg balance except with 6 less stats?

they don't seem broken to me at the moment (they're certainly much weaker than mi/vs/gr)

[johlstei]

so you would rather remember that you increase a stat by 1 at xl2, 1 at xl3, 1 at xl4, 2 at xl6, 1 at xl8, 1 at xl9, 1 at xl10, 2 at xl12, 1 at xl 14, 1 at xl15, 1 at xl16, 2 at xl18, 1 at xl20, 1 at xl21, 1 at x22, 2 at xl24, 1 at xl26 and 1 at xl27 instead of "you increase a stat by 2 every 2 levels" just for the sake of breaking the existing Dg balance except with 6 less stats?

they don't seem broken to me at the moment (they're certainly much weaker than mi/vs/gr)

No, I'd rather increase my stats when the prompt asks me to and not memorize anything at all. My point is that changes should be proposed in isolation. There is already a large enough burden convincing anyone that a single change is worthwhile, tacking on the tavern equivalent of political pork to a proposal is a surefire way for it to go down in flames. It has nothing to do with the merits of your additional proposal.

Alright, got my 16th point in dex, I'm ready for shoals.

[XuaXua]

Alright, got my 16th point in dex, I'm ready for shoals.

That should be your post signature; I actually thought it was.

[duvessa]

they don't seem broken to me at the moment (they're certainly much weaker than mi/vs/gr)

i consider dg a stronger species than all 3 of those

[Greyr]

they don't seem broken to me at the moment (they're certainly much weaker than mi/vs/gr)

i consider dg a stronger species than all 3 of those

Win rates consider Dg a weaker species than all three

[duvessa]

win rates also consider chei better than makhleb

[Greyr]

That could just indicate that chei is more fun to play than mahkleb.

And that Dg are boring as hell.

[damiac]

they don't seem broken to me at the moment (they're certainly much weaker than mi/vs/gr)

i consider dg a stronger species than all 3 of those

I don't... at least not mi
You know mi/vs/gr can start with trog, right? That's a stronger D1 start than DG stats.

Aside from that, the DG stat advantage fades pretty fast as the other species gain skills, XP, and piety.

Still, while i wouldn't call a DG stronger than those races, they still are pretty good.

[Brannock]

Minotaur and Demigod fighter types are very comparable in both early game ease-of-play and late-game strength. Both have a 10% HP bonus. Minotaur have a rougher time hybridizing into buff spells compared to Demigod, but comparatively Minotaur don't have to deal with as severe of a XP penalties or the lack of a god. Demigod clearly are stronger casters than MInotaur. Vine Stalker and Gargoyle don't have remotely as easy of a time early on (thanks to severe HP maluses) but their various bonuses (and, again, access to a god) make up for it if you can survive early game.

That said, I am extremely indifferent towards the game's balance (both between player-Dungeon, and between races-other races). I leave that up to the dev team, and they've done a good job of handling it in the many years I've been playing this game. I simply want to see Demigod become more distinct and give them more of a reason to be picked in their own right, rather than the player choosing to follow a conduct. If it takes a mild nerf to their starting stats to make Guided Stats a possibility, then so be it.

[Brannock]

so you would rather remember that you increase a stat by 1 at xl2, 1 at xl3, 1 at xl4, 2 at xl6, 1 at xl8, 1 at xl9, 1 at xl10, 2 at xl12, 1 at xl 14, 1 at xl15, 1 at xl16, 2 at xl18, 1 at xl20, 1 at xl21, 1 at x22, 2 at xl24, 1 at xl26 and 1 at xl27 instead of "you increase a stat by 2 every 2 levels" just for the sake of breaking the existing Dg balance except with 6 less stats?

How does this sound: Dg currently have 11/12/11 base racial stats, and gain 22 total stats from XL advancement. This makes a total of 56 stats.

Reduce their base stats to 10/10/10 for a nice round number. At XL%3, they get a single prompt to choose a stat and gain three points in it. They can do this nine times, for 27 stats gained from XL advancement. This makes a total of 57 stats. (If you like, you can drop one of the base 10 to 9 to maintain perfect parity.)

No complication with double prompts or strange stat gain patterns.

"Your experience leads to an increase in your attributes!
Increase (S)trength, (I)ntellect, or (D)exterity?
You feel divinely {strong/clever/agile}!"

[Bloax]

There are no double prompts, only 2 stats per choice (which happen every 2 XL [optimally starting from XL3] instead of 3) instead of 1.

The flavour message is probably a Good Idea though.

[PleasingFungus]

Pushed some variant of the stat control. Undecided about sustab; might add that later, might not.

[Greyr]

Pushed some variant of the stat control. Undecided about sustab; might add that later, might not.

He said, descending from the clouds atop a golden chariot.

[tabstorm]

they don't seem broken to me at the moment (they're certainly much weaker than mi/vs/gr)

i consider dg a stronger species than all 3 of those

Whatever you are on, I need some of it. Mi is better for the entire game, and VS/Gr are only slightly worse before they get a god on like D:5. I imagine you rank species based on their strength on D:1-4 but other parts of the game do exist (though you may consider them so utterly trivial as to be unworthy of mention, other people might not agree...)

Regarding the OP I think it's pretty neat and would enjoy playing it