Spines, Scales, and a Ring of Protection

[EntropicMage]

The wiki claims that the damage dealt against attackers by spines is reduced by AC. I had always assumed that this isn't a big deal if I am not wearing armor. But my Ds also just grew metallic scales and found a +6 ring of protection. Does this also reduce the spines effectiveness?

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14.0 (tiles) character file.

Viodak the Magician (Demonspawn Wizard)             Turns: 3120, Time: 00:16:12

HP  41/41        AC 11     Str  7      XL: 6   Next:  3%
MP  10/15        EV 13     Int 21      God:
Gold 90          SH  0     Dex 12      Spells:  5 memorised,  3 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     g - +1,+2 cutlass
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     a - +0 robe
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     b - +0 hat
rElec  .         rRot     .     h - +0 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     (no gloves)
rMut   .         Warding  .     (no boots)
Saprov . . .     Rnd*Tele +     (no amulet)
MR     .....                    v - cursed ring of teleportation
                                k - +6 ring of protection

@: not resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy
A: horns 1, thin metallic scales 1, spiny 1
a: Evoke Teleportation


You are on level 3 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 3 of its levels.

You have collected 90 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 g - a +1,+2 cutlass (weapon)
Missiles
 n - 7 curare-tipped needles
Armour
 a - a +0 robe (worn)
 b - a +0 hat (worn)
 h - a +0 cloak (worn)
 t - a glowing helmet
Magical devices
 o - a wand of enslavement {zapped: 1}
Comestibles
 d - 2 bread rations
 i - a meat ration
Scrolls
 e - 2 scrolls labeled ISHUTR ARAWANG
 f - 4 scrolls of identify
 j - 2 scrolls of immolation
 m - a scroll labeled KEIDAJ CLIMEARCH
 q - a scroll labeled PLUKKA STAZXOE
 r - 2 scrolls labeled EGRUOD YKLUCES
 w - 3 scrolls labeled BRERAC OCHIU
Jewellery
 k - a +6 ring of protection (left hand)
 v - a cursed ring of teleportation (right hand)
Potions
 l - an emulsified yellow potion
 p - a white potion
 s - a brown potion
Books
 c - a book of Minor Magic   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Magic Dart                        Conjuration                  1
   *Blink                             Translocation                2
   Call Imp                           Summoning                    2
   *Repel Missiles                    Charms/Air                   2
   Slow                               Hexes                        2
   *Conjure Flame                     Conjuration/Fire             3
   *Mephitic Cloud                    Conjuration/Poison/Air       3
 u - a book of Enchantments   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Cause Fear                         Hexes                        4
   Silence                            Hexes/Air                    5
   Tukima's Dance                     Hexes                        5
   Deflect Missiles                   Charms/Air                   6
   Haste                              Charms                       6
   Discord                            Hexes                        8


   Skills:
 + Level 1.1 Short Blades
 + Level 3.3 Dodging
 + Level 3.3 Stealth
 + Level 4.5 Spellcasting
 - Level 1.0 Conjurations
   Level 1.0 Summonings
 + Level 0.8 Translocations
 - Level 0.1 Fire Magic


You have 3 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           #...         10%         1    None
b - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          12%         2    None
c - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       #.....       17%         2    None
d - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      #.......     30%         3    ###....
e - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  #.......     34%         3    ###....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (3/15)           

Altars:


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You have a pair of small horns on your head.
You are partially covered in thin metallic scales (AC +2).
You are partially covered in sharp spines.


Message History

Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Magic Dart
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - gnoll
Aim: a gnoll, wielding a flail (heavily wounded)
The magic dart hits the gnoll.
The gnoll is severely wounded.
You hit the gnoll.
The gnoll is almost dead.
The gnoll hits you but does no damage.
You hit the gnoll but do no damage.
The gnoll is almost dead.
The gnoll hits you but does no damage.
You puncture the gnoll!
You kill the gnoll!
You have reached level 6!
Your experience leads to an increase in your attributes!
Increase (S)trength, (I)ntelligence, or (D)exterity?
You feel clever. Your demonic ancestry asserts itself...
Thin metallic scales grow over part of your body.
Saving game... please wait.

..##.######.#####...###.#.#
..##.#    #.#   #...#...#.##
.###.#    #.#   #...#......#
.###.######.#   #####......#
.........##.#       ###....#
.###.###.##.###      #....##
.# #.# #......#     ##.(..#
## #.# ####.#.#######.....##
## #.#    #.#.....(.#......#####
.# #.#   ##.#.).............##.#
.###.#   #.......@..........##.###
.g...# ###....####........<.##...#
.....###.....................<...#
.....##...#...##...###....####...#
####g..<..#...##...###....#  #####
   #......#.#.######....#.#
   #<....##.#.#    #....#.######
####...#.##.#.#    #...........#
.........##.#.#    ####........#
.###.##...#(#.#       #........#
.###.##...#.#.##      #.#...####


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  The ghost of Alaem the Magician, an average DEWz (D:3)
  A hound (D:3)
  2 gnolls (D:3)
  8 adders
  A worm (D:2)
  2 oozes
  An orc (D:3)
  6 giant cockroaches
  12 goblins
  6 hobgoblins
  15 kobolds
  A ball python (D:2)
  12 bats
  2 giant geckos
  6 giant newts
  6 rats
82 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A bat (D:3)
1 creature vanquished.

Grand Total: 83 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Viodak, the Demonspawn Wizard, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 13/13 MP: 4/4
   159 | D:1      | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in sharp spines. [demonic ancestry]
   159 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 19/19 MP: 4/6
   786 | D:2      | Gained mutation: You have a pair of small horns on your head. [demonic ancestry]
   786 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 22/24 MP: 6/8
  1295 | D:2      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
  1298 | D:2      | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
  1302 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
  1446 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Short Blades
  1703 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 22/30 MP: 10/10
  2373 | D:3      | Reached skill level 4 in Spellcasting
  2373 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 32/35 MP: 1/13
  2735 | D:3      | Noticed Alaem's ghost (average DEWz)
  2758 | D:3      | Killed Alaem's ghost
  3032 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
  3117 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in thin metallic scales (AC +2). [demonic ancestry]
  3117 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 41/41 MP: 9/15


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Dagger            |    62 |       ||    62
       Cutlass           |    24 |    61 ||    85
 Cast: Magic Dart        |    44 |    79 ||   123
       Conjure Flame     |       |     4 ||     4
Evoke: Wand              |       |     1 ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |     2 |       ||     2
 Stab: Sleeping          |     1 |     1 ||     2
       Confused          |       |     1 ||     1



[Sar]

If you have spines, its damage is reduced by encumbrance rating (not AC!) of the armour you wear, though I'm not sure about numbers.

[dck]

What the wiki is saying there is that the damage dealt by spines is reduced only by AC and you have no EV or SH check to avoid it altogether.
You know what's fun the fact meleeing things with spines as a cat is awful ever since this change went in (logic for it being "dodging spines doesn't make much sense").

[Siegurt]

Outgoing spine damage (from having the spines mutation and being attacked) is reduced by the encumbrance rating of the body armour you wear, rings, scales, etc do not effect it. It's also reduced by the AC of the creature attacking you.

Incoming spine damage (from attacking spiny things) is reduced by AC, but cannot be evaded or blocked with a shield (There's a set chance of taking that damage) I suppose if spiny things wore body armour their spine damage might be reduced by that (although I don't know if there's any code written for such a case) however, currently, no such things exist.

[dck]

Torturous Ds have spines and can wear armor.

[EntropicMage]

Interesting, thanks for the clarification.

I knew that the spines effectiveness was reduced by armor so I just assumed that the wiki article was referencing my AC and not the monsters.

My character just grew even more spines with my last mutation. This should be an interesting one to play.

[Siegurt]

Torturous Ds have spines and can wear armor.

Good point, I'd forgotten about them being added, I wonder if there's code in there now for "monsters with spines who are wearing body armour" probably not worth looking up

[tedric]

FYI, there was a thread about Spiny mutation a little while ago that might have some interesting info: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11436&p=159569&hilit=spines+damage#p159569

I ran some wizmode tests (in .13, I'm not sure if anything relevant has been changed since then) and the upshot was that as long as you stick to robes, the spines will do a small but noticeable amount of melee damage to some enemies. Once you upgrade to leather or heavier, spines are basically useless. Dodging skill reduces their effectiveness further (blows have to land for spine damage to trigger) but only a little bit.

Of course if you are wearing a robe and killing with spells/ranged then any monster for which you'd care about a small advantage in added melee damage is probably a monster you want to kill before it can melee you.

[and into]

Siegurt and co. clarified the mechanics, but I would not make armor decisions based on the spines mutation. The damage it deals is really not worth deviating from whatever your best set up would be, based on what is available to your character. (If that happens to be robes or steam dragon armor, great; if not, wear your best armor and don't worry about losing the spines damage.)



Since you posted a character dump:

I'd go ahead and memorize call imp, and I'd stop training spell casting. Getting conjure flame and mephitic cloud a bit more reliable (~15% is a good place to be) is a priority, and in the process try to get about 4 levels of conjurations or so. Then dodging. Then either melee, or more spells depending on what you want to do with the character, and what has dropped.

You have curare-tipped needles, that will be a major benefit when you find a blowgun. That wand of enslavement is also very helpful, don't forget you have it.

Read ID that stack of three scrolls to see if it is remove curse, so you can get that ring of teleportation off of your finger (it will randomly teleport you, this is bad). You should also use those scrolls of identify to figure out what your consumables are. Top identification priorities are usually scroll of teleportation, potion of curing, potion of heal wounds. (However lots of other scrolls and potions are very helpful, of course—if you know what they are.) In your case, however, scroll of remove curse is your top priority.

[Konedar]

Personally I wish spine mutation to be removed, it's by far the worst mutation a Ds can get (and the only one will make me dump a char if I get it soon).
It's weak (if you get 2-3 levels early will help in lair and that's all about it) and doesn't add any interesting mechanic...

[duvessa]

its true that spiny is useless in heavy armour, but this shouldn't really affect your decisions, because spiny is also useless in light armour