Spider's Nest

[skjarl]

So, I'm stomping through the Spider's Nest from yesterday's build and I've fought something that's invisible, poisons me to lethal levels (even with rPoison), is tougher than dammit, and drains all my stats. I can't see invisible yet, so can someone tell me the name of the vicious bastard that keeps cornholing me? Thanks.

[Abominae]

Ghost Moth.

[skjarl]

Ugh. I can't believe this is the first time I've fought one without see invis. What a nightmare.

[Sandman25]

There was a long thread about Ghost Moth, some players pretended all casters should be able to kill it in melee

[TheDefiniteArticle]

it's an invisible orc knight if you can't fight that you shouldn't be in spider anyway

10 weapon skill and any good weapon kills them lol

keep on iron shotting rats though

[and into]

"Pretend"? I seriously cannot recall any character I've played who started with a book and did lots of casting that wouldn't be able to take a ghost moth 1 vs. 1 in melee by about level 15 or 16. Some of them would have needed to use a consumable or two to make the fight completely safe, sure, but that's reasonable for one of the toughest monsters that appears in Spider, and is only likely to show up in the level 5 rune vault.

[skjarl]

As a Vine Stalker monk, the 3 I killed knocked my dick in the dirt before I took them down. I had to burn a lot of consumables on each one before I finally managed to grab the rune. I ran away before the others found me. They are definitely no joke.

[Hopeless]

As a Vine Stalker monk, the 3 I killed knocked my dick in the dirt before I took them down. I had to burn a lot of consumables on each one before I finally managed to grab the rune. I ran away before the others found me. They are definitely no joke.

It really helps to use sInv but I did have a game where my LOFi took a bunch apart one at a time whilst my horde did their job of blocking the rest which was probably more a testament to my great gear (sans sInv) than any skill of mine. I certainly also lost a few characters my first time into Spider since while they are usually in the vault on Spider 5 they aren't always just there and I had no idea what I was facing. I would say while they are no joke they aren't too hard if you know what you are facing. At worst you should have an escape plan that works.

[Sandman25]

I knew we can have another long thread after my comments, sorry about that.
You do realize that speed 12 monster with 18 + 18 + 12 can kill a character in robe in less than 3 turns, don't you?
My last character was doing fine in Vaults killing Stone Giants left and right until one lucky Stone Giant got 2 almost max damage rolls in a row and I almost died.
The same can happen with Ghost Moth, also its invisibility means it can join a fight when you have just killed Emperor Scorpion.

I have just done some fsims - created a DEVm, set it XL to 15 (training all skills), then added 10 levels in fighting AND M&F, gave +4 flail. So the character has 20 extra skill levels and still loses to Ghost Moth, too low accuracy.

  Code:

Attack: Deep Elf Venom Mage vs. ghost moth (4000 rounds) (2014/05/11/19:00:27)
Deep Elf Venom Mage: XL 15   Str 5   Int 22   Dex 15
Wielding: +4,+4 flail, Skill: Maces & Flails
ghost moth: HD 13   AC 8   EV 10

Maces & Fl | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      3.3 |     15 |      43% |   1.4 |   140  |  0.71 |      1.0
         1 |      3.5 |     15 |      46% |   1.6 |   135  |  0.74 |      1.2
         2 |      3.4 |     15 |      47% |   1.6 |   130  |  0.77 |      1.2
         3 |      3.4 |     17 |      46% |   1.6 |   125  |  0.80 |      1.2
         4 |      3.6 |     18 |      48% |   1.7 |   120  |  0.83 |      1.4
         5 |      3.5 |     15 |      48% |   1.7 |   115  |  0.87 |      1.5
         6 |      3.4 |     18 |      48% |   1.7 |   110  |  0.91 |      1.5
         7 |      3.6 |     17 |      49% |   1.8 |   105  |  0.95 |      1.7
         8 |      3.8 |     16 |      49% |   1.9 |   100  |  1.00 |      1.9
         9 |      3.9 |     18 |      50% |   2.0 |    95  |  1.05 |      2.1
        10 |      4.0 |     20 |      51% |   2.0 |    90  |  1.11 |      2.2
        11 |      4.1 |     17 |      51% |   2.1 |    85  |  1.18 |      2.5
        12 |      4.1 |     20 |      52% |   2.1 |    80  |  1.25 |      2.7
        13 |      4.1 |     18 |      53% |   2.2 |    75  |  1.33 |      2.9
        14 |      4.1 |     22 |      54% |   2.3 |    70  |  1.43 |      3.2
        15 |      4.3 |     22 |      54% |   2.3 |    70  |  1.43 |      3.3
        16 |      4.3 |     22 |      56% |   2.4 |    70  |  1.43 |      3.5
        17 |      4.6 |     20 |      56% |   2.6 |    70  |  1.43 |      3.7
        18 |      4.8 |     20 |      56% |   2.7 |    70  |  1.43 |      3.8
        19 |      4.7 |     22 |      58% |   2.8 |    70  |  1.43 |      3.9
        20 |      4.8 |     25 |      57% |   2.8 |    70  |  1.43 |      4.0
        21 |      4.9 |     21 |      56% |   2.8 |    70  |  1.43 |      3.9
        22 |      5.0 |     22 |      59% |   3.0 |    70  |  1.43 |      4.2
        23 |      4.9 |     27 |      59% |   2.9 |    70  |  1.43 |      4.2
        24 |      5.2 |     23 |      59% |   3.1 |    70  |  1.43 |      4.4
        25 |      5.0 |     24 |      57% |   2.9 |    70  |  1.43 |      4.1
        26 |      5.4 |     22 |      59% |   3.2 |    70  |  1.43 |      4.6
        27 |      5.4 |     25 |      60% |   3.2 |    70  |  1.43 |      4.6

[Abominae]

I would not use DE (a decidedly niche race) as an example for your argument. It would be much more convincing to use a species that actually attempts to function like most other species in Crawl.

[Sar]

a flail

[crate]

It's also not too hard to figure out where the ghost moth is even without sinv before it drains all of your MP, so unless you make a habit of running around with no MP (and additionally have no !magic or such) you can probably kill ghost moths with spells.

[Sandman25]

Yes, a flail so what? I have just run a fight - put sInv ring, created Ghost Moth, removed the ring and then attacked. The character died in 5 turns, I answered "N" on "die" prompt and equipped ring to see how many HP the monster lost. It lost nothing, still was at 100% HP

[Sandman25]

+5 Demon Whip of flaming is a good enough weapon for you?

That's how the character looked after killing it.

  Code:

HP  26/92        AC 11     Str  4 (5)  XL: 15   Next:  3%
MP   0/40        EV 20     Int 21 (22) God: No God 0 (0)
Gold 0           SH  0     Dex 12 (15) Spells:  1 memorised, 46 levels left

You closely miss something. Something barely misses you.
Something barely misses you. Something closely misses you.
You whack something! You burn something. Something hits you.
You feel clumsy.
Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something. You burn something.
You closely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you. x2
You feel clumsy.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You closely miss something.
You whack something! You burn something. Something misses you.
Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something but do no damage. Something closely misses you.
Something hits you!
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something but do no damage. Something barely misses you.
Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something. You burn something.
You whack something! You burn something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you! Something hits you.
You feel dopey.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You closely miss something. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something closely misses you.
You whack something! You burn something.
You hit something. You burn something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something closely misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You whack something! You burn something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel weakened.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something completely misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something misses you.
You barely miss something.
You whack something! You burn something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel clumsy.
Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you but does no damage.
You whack something! You burn something. Something barely misses you.
Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you but does no damage.
You whack something! You burn something.
Reactivating autopickup.
You feel a bit more experienced.



[dirtywick]

I would not use DE (a decidedly niche race) as an example for your argument. It would be much more convincing to use a species that actually attempts to function like most other species in Crawl.

I don't know they're pretty popular.

[Sar]

Whips of daemonic origin do satisfy me, yes. Now, try buffing?

[Sandman25]

Whips of daemonic origin do satisfy me, yes. Now, try buffing?

Quaffed Haste before the fight and died, lol. Ghost Moth is at about 50% HP.

What buffs should I activate?

  Code:

You feel you are being watched by something.
Deactivating autopickup; reactivate with Ctrl-A.
Something hits you but does no damage. x2
Something stings you.
You are poisoned.
Something poisons you!
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel yourself speed up.
You feel very sick.
Something barely misses you. Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You are very lightly contaminated with residual magic.
You closely miss something. You feel sick.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you! Something hits you. Something stings you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You are lethally poisoned!
Something poisons you!
You barely miss something.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel very sick.
You closely miss something.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel very sick.
Something hits you but does no damage. x2
Something barely misses you.
You miss something.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel very sick.
You hit something but do no damage.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel very sick.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something. You burn something.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel very sick.
You miss something.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel very sick.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something stings you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You closely miss something.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel very sick.
You whack something! You burn something.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel sick.
You whack something! You burn something!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel very sick.
Something hits you!
Die?
Thought so. Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Reactivating autopickup.
j - a ring of see invisible (left hand) {sInv, !d}
You feel sick.


[Sar]

Invis, I guess? Agility and might can be good too. In real fight, you don't really bump into moth until one of you dies - if things go badly you can retreat or heal up.

[crate]

Well invis is good since it also means you don't lose MP so no reason to bother with invis melee (you'd just use spells with this character type). Might or haste are relevant if you want to melee.

[Sandman25]

Well, I went from 92 to 54 HP while quaffing Haste and Might. Then I died with Ghost Moth at almost 100% HP (you can see "lightly wounded" in the dump).

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-a0-658-g449be1d (tiles) character file.

DEFE the Eclecticist (Deep Elf Venom Mage)          Turns: 1259, Time: 00:10:49

HP  90/92        AC 11     Str  9 (10) XL: 15   Next:  3%
MP   0/40        EV 22     Int 20 (22) God: No God 0 (0)
Gold 0           SH  0     Dex 14 (15) Spells:  1 memorised, 46 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis +     k - +5 demon whip (flame)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     a - +2 robe
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     e - +2 helmet
rElec  .         rRot     .     d - +2 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     f - +0 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Warding  .     (no boots)
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     (no amulet)
MR     +....                    (no ring)
                                j - ring of see invisible {sInv, !d}

@: mighty, very slightly contaminated, hasted, very quick, somewhat resistant to
hostile enchantments, very stealthy
A: no striking features
a: no special abilities


You are on level 1 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 1 of its levels.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 g - a +4,+4 flail
 k - a +5,+5 demon whip of flaming (weapon)
Armour
 a - a +2 robe (worn)
 d - a +2 cloak (worn)
 e - a +2 helmet (worn)
 f - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
Jewellery
 j - a ring of see invisible (left hand) {sInv, !d}
Potions
 h - 9 potions of restore abilities
 i - 9 potions of curing
 l - 10 potions of haste
 m - 11 potions of might
Books
 b - a Young Poisoner's Handbook   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Sting                             Conjuration/Poison           1
   Cure Poison                        Poison                       2
   Mephitic Cloud                     Conjuration/Poison/Air       3
   Olgreb's Toxic Radiance            Poison                       4
   Venom Bolt                         Conjuration/Poison           5


   Skills:
 - Level 10.0 Fighting
 - Level 10.0 Maces & Flails
 + Level 15.6 Dodging
 + Level 16.8 Stealth
 + Level 16.8 Spellcasting
 + Level 14.8 Poison Magic


You have 46 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
z - Sting                 Conj/Pois      25 (25)      1%          1    0


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (1/15)           

Altars:

Message History

Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
) - weapons     ( - missiles  [ - armour  / - wands    ?  - scrolls
= - jewellery   ! - potions   : - books   | - staves   \  - rods
} - miscellany  X - corpses   % - food    $ - gold     0  - the Orb
ESC - exit
What class of item? !
What type of item? might
Potion of might
Something appears at your feet!
m - 12 potions of might
You start resting.
You are feeling very hungry.
You start resting.
Your extra speed is starting to run out.
Eat which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You finish eating. That bread ration really hit the spot!
You start resting.
You feel yourself slow down.
You start resting.
HP restored.
Your magical contamination has completely faded away.
You start resting.
Magic restored.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
A ghost moth comes into view.
You remove your ring of see invisible {sInv, !d}.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Deactivating autopickup; reactivate with Ctrl-A.
Something hits you!
You feel clumsy.
Something hits you!
Something stings you but does no damage.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel yourself speed up.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you!
You feel weakened.
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something misses you.
You are very lightly contaminated with residual magic.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel very mighty all of a sudden.
Something hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You hit something. You burn something.
You barely miss something. Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel dopey.
Something barely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You completely miss something.
You hit something. You burn something. Something barely misses you.
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You miss something.
You hit something. You burn something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage. Something completely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You miss something.
You closely miss something. Something closely misses you.
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something completely misses you.
You barely miss something.
You barely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You barely miss something.
You barely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something completely misses you. Something stings you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You whack something! You burn something.
You barely miss something. Something hits you!
Die?
Thought so. Something closely misses you. Something stings you.
Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Reactivating autopickup.
j - a ring of see invisible (left hand) {sInv, !d}
Saving game... please wait.
Lua error: init.txt:651: unexpected symbol near '#'
Welcome back, DEFE the Deep Elf Venom Mage.
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.
Press: ? - help, v - describe, . - travel
Here: a ghost moth (lightly wounded, slightly transparent)
The floor.
Saving game... please wait.

    ##############
    #............#
    #.........##.#
    #.........##.#######
    #.........##........
    #...###...##.#######
    #..##.##..##.#
    #..#...#..##.#
    #..+.@.+..##.#
    #..#.y.#..##.#######
    #..##.##............
    #...###...##.#######
#####.........##.#######
#.......................
#.##....................
#.######.#####..........
#.#    #.#   #..........


You can see a ghost moth (invisible).

Vanquished Creatures
  A ghost moth (D:1)
  A ghost (D:1)
2 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | DEFE, the Deep Elf Venom Mage, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 5/5
     0 | D:1      | Entered wizard mode.
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 16 in Stealth
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 5/23
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 5/25
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 5/27
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 5/29
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 32/32 MP: 5/31
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/36 MP: 5/32
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/41 MP: 5/33
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 45/45 MP: 5/34
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/50 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 54/54 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 12. HP: 59/59 MP: 5/37
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 13. HP: 63/63 MP: 5/38
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 14. HP: 68/68 MP: 5/39
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 15. HP: 72/72 MP: 5/40
   113 | D:1      | Lost strength.
   113 | D:1      | Lost dexterity.
   113 | D:1      | Lost intelligence.
   121 | D:1      | HP: 2/92 [poisoned by a ghost moth]
   122 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             ... while paralysed
             
   124 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   124 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
   126 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   402 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:46 current:45
   598 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:26 current:45
   601 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:12 current:20
   603 | D:1      | HP: 3/92 [something (5)]
   604 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:8 current:3
   604 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
  1092 | D:1      | Slain by a ghost moth (16 damage)
             
  1257 | D:1      | Mangled by a ghost moth (15 damage)
             


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Flail             |       |       |       |       |116015 ||116015
       Demon whip        |       |       |       |       |112044 ||112044
  Use: Potion            |       |       |       |       |     9 ||     9
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1

Vault maps used:
D:1:      dpeg_arrival_shelter, minmay_misc_feat_secret_circle


[crate]

um quaffing potions when the moth is already next to you is an awful test lol

[skjarl]

As an XL18 strong melee I almost died several times fighting these guys. As a caster, I'm thinking I'll probably avoid Spider until XL23+ from now on. Those moths are just too monstrously powerful for squishies to handle at earlier levels. It's too easy to get all your mana drained and you can't handle the beating up close and personal. I'm with Sandman on this one. Nerf or replace those things.

[Sar]

I'm afraid to ask what do you mean by "strong melee" then.

[Sandman25]

Ok, here is quaffing Haste and Might before fighting. Do you think 48 HP is enough to fight another Ghost Moth?

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-a0-658-g449be1d (tiles) character file.

DEFE the Eclecticist (Deep Elf Venom Mage)          Turns: 1688, Time: 00:13:02

HP  48/92        AC 11     Str  9 (10) XL: 15   Next: 10%
MP   6/40        EV 23     Int 22      God: No God 0 (0)
Gold 0           SH  0     Dex 15      Spells:  1 memorised, 46 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     k - +5 demon whip (flame)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     a - +2 robe
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     e - +2 helmet
rElec  .         rRot     .     d - +2 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     f - +0 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Warding  .     (no boots)
Saprov . . .     Stasis   .     (no amulet)
MR     +....                    (no ring)
                                (no ring)

@: mighty, seriously poisoned, very slightly contaminated, hasted, very quick,
somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, very stealthy
A: no striking features
a: no special abilities


You are on level 1 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 1 of its levels.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 g - a +4,+4 flail
 k - a +5,+5 demon whip of flaming (weapon)
Armour
 a - a +2 robe (worn)
 d - a +2 cloak (worn)
 e - a +2 helmet (worn)
 f - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
Jewellery
 j - an uncursed ring of see invisible {sInv, !d}
Potions
 h - 8 potions of restore abilities
 i - 9 potions of curing
 l - 8 potions of haste
 m - 9 potions of might
Books
 b - a Young Poisoner's Handbook   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Sting                             Conjuration/Poison           1
   Cure Poison                        Poison                       2
   Mephitic Cloud                     Conjuration/Poison/Air       3
   Olgreb's Toxic Radiance            Poison                       4
   Venom Bolt                         Conjuration/Poison           5


   Skills:
 - Level 10.0 Fighting
 - Level 10.0 Maces & Flails
 + Level 15.6 Dodging
 + Level 16.8 Stealth
 + Level 16.9 Spellcasting
 + Level 14.9 Poison Magic


You have 46 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
z - Sting                 Conj/Pois      25 (25)      1%          1    0


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (1/15)           

Altars:

Message History

There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon, spattered with blood here.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel yourself speed up.
You are very lightly contaminated with residual magic.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel very mighty all of a sudden.
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
j - a ring of see invisible (left hand) {sInv, !d}
A ghost moth comes into view.
You remove your ring of see invisible {sInv, !d}.
What do you say?
 t - Shout!
Orders for allies: a - Attack new target.
                   r - Retreat!             s - Stop attacking.
                   w - Wait here.           f - Follow me.
 Anything else - Stay silent.
You shout for attention!
Something closely misses you. Something hits you but does no damage.
Deactivating autopickup; reactivate with Ctrl-A.
Something misses you.
You thrash something!! You burn something.
You miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something hits you but does no damage. Something hits you.
You feel weakened.
Something completely misses you.
Damage: -2%(-2hp)   hp: 98%(90hp)
You barely miss something.
You whack something! You burn something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
Something barely misses you. Something hits you. Something misses you.
Damage: -3%(-3hp)   hp: 95%(87hp)
You barely miss something.
You barely miss something.
You feel you are being watched by something.
* * * LOW MAGIC WARNING * * *
Something completely misses you. Something closely misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
You whack something! You burn something!
You miss something. Something hits you but does no damage.
Something hits you! Something stings you.
You are poisoned.
Something poisons you!
Huge Dmg: -24%(-22hp) hp: 71%(65hp)
You whack something! You burn something. You feel sick.
Damage: -2%(-2hp)   hp: 69%(63hp)
You closely miss something. You feel sick. Something barely misses you.
Something misses you.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -2%(-2hp)   hp: 67%(61hp)
You whack something! You burn something. You feel sick.
You thrash something!! You burn something. You feel sick.
Something hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Something hits you but does no damage.
Something stings you but does no damage.
Damage: -11%(-10hp)   hp: 56%(51hp)
You closely miss something. You feel sick.
Damage: -1%(-1hp)   hp: 55%(50hp)
You thrash something!! You burn something.
Reactivating autopickup.
You feel a bit more experienced. You feel sick.
Damage: -2%(-2hp)   hp: 53%(48hp)
Saving game... please wait.

    ##############
    #............#
    #.........##.#
    #.........##.#######
    #.........##........
    #...###...##.#######
    #..##.##..##.#
    #..#...#..##.#
    #..+.@.+..##.#
    #..#...#..##.#######
    #..##.##............
    #...###...##.#######
#####.........##.#######
#.......................
#.##....................
#.######.#####..........
#.#    #.#   #..........


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  3 ghost moths (D:1)
  A ghost (D:1)
4 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | DEFE, the Deep Elf Venom Mage, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 5/5
     0 | D:1      | Entered wizard mode.
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
     0 | D:1      | Reached skill level 16 in Stealth
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 5/23
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 5/25
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 5/27
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/28 MP: 5/29
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 32/32 MP: 5/31
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/36 MP: 5/32
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/41 MP: 5/33
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 45/45 MP: 5/34
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/50 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 54/54 MP: 5/36
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 12. HP: 59/59 MP: 5/37
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 13. HP: 63/63 MP: 5/38
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 14. HP: 68/68 MP: 5/39
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 15. HP: 72/72 MP: 5/40
   113 | D:1      | Lost strength.
   113 | D:1      | Lost dexterity.
   113 | D:1      | Lost intelligence.
   121 | D:1      | HP: 2/92 [poisoned by a ghost moth]
   122 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             ... while paralysed
             
   124 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   124 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
   126 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:80 current:12
   402 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:46 current:45
   598 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:26 current:45
   601 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:12 current:20
   603 | D:1      | HP: 3/92 [something (5)]
   604 | D:1      | =================== Autoexit: lost:8 current:3
   604 | D:1      | Succumbed to a ghost moth's poison
             
  1092 | D:1      | Slain by a ghost moth (16 damage)
             
  1257 | D:1      | Mangled by a ghost moth (15 damage)
             


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Flail             |       |       |       |       |116015 ||116015
       Demon whip        |       |       |       |       |112066 ||112066
  Use: Potion            |       |       |       |       |    14 ||    14
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1

Vault maps used:
D:1:      dpeg_arrival_shelter, minmay_misc_feat_secret_circle


[Hurkyl]

um quaffing potions when the moth is already next to you is an awful test lol

Because you are always three squares away from an invisible monster when you first notice it....

[crate]

um quaffing potions when the moth is already next to you is an awful test lol

Because you are always three squares away from an invisible monster when you first notice it....

you get a message when a ghost moth is in your los....

edit:

Ok, here is quaffing Haste and Might before fighting. Do you think 48 HP is enough to fight another Ghost Moth?

I have not fought two ghost moths at once in spider probably ever.

[duvessa]

Ok, here is quaffing Haste and Might before fighting. Do you think 48 HP is enough to fight another Ghost Moth?

why are you fighting two ghost moths at once with 11/23/0 and no spells

[and into]

These tests are silly, Sandman. Why would a venom mage have 16.8 stealth unless it found a cloak of darkness and took up stabbing? (Incidentally that would trivialize ghost moths since they can't see invis.) And why 16 spell casting? Pretty sure they'd have more than sting memorized, and would have found some other spell books. (Ghost moths drain your MP fast but it isn't instantaneous, you can often get a shot or two off at them.) And reasonably you'd have stuff like wands, maybe elemental evokers, maybe a rod, maybe some scrolls of summoning. Etc. Etc. Etc. All those can stack odds in your favor so that you can finish the buggers off in melee. Plus if something gets lucky and gets some good shots in, heal wounds exist, plus you generally have lots of escape consumables by the time you are doing spider 5, assuming you carefully explored the area in a reasonable manner and are attacking the rune vault last, as you should be.

Yes, specifically on a DE who had bad luck and couldn't get very good AC + EV (11/23 is really bad for this point in game) or defensive buffs, I would be careful about Ghost Moths in Spider, especially if I lacked SInv. I wouldn't just run up and start smacking one, even with might. I don't think see how that proves much of anything about "casters" and ghost moths though.

Plenty of people have cleared spider with casting-centric characters of various species, including DE. They've even managed to do so without SInv. Hell plenty of folks have done it without rPois and without SInv with a variety of characters. So maybe one shouldn't be sowing the (obviously incorrect and silly) notion that Ghost Moths are impossible to kill if you are DE without an incredibly good weapon?

[Sandman25]

It's usually me who doesn't understand jokes, it's nice to be on the opposite side this time
How are you going to fight Emperor Scorpions, Tarantellas, Wolf Spiders, Jumping Spiders etc. with 0 MP and 48 HP?
You can assume that I know how to clear Spider or at least escape, but please be honest to stop pretending that melee with Ghost Moth even with +5 Demon Whip of flaming and Haste/Might potions is a normal(recommended) experience for caster.
It's in the same league as walking 5 tiles to melee Mara - possible but stupidly dangerous.

[Sandman25]

and into,

I described how I created the character, this is how wizmode trained it. If your casters have more than 15 Dodging and 10 Fighting at XL 15, I am really impressed.

Edit. I am not trying to prove that Ghost Moths are impossible to kill. I am trying to prove that melee is not a good way to deal with Ghost Moth for primarily casters

[and into]

You can assume that I know how to clear Spider or at least escape, but please be honest to stop pretending that melee with Ghost Moth even with +5 Demon Whip of flaming and Haste/Might potions is a normal(recommended) experience for caster.
It's in the same league as walking 5 tiles to melee Mara - possible but stupidly dangerous.

Well I kind of took it for granted that when I said "melee a ghost moth" I didn't mean "throw out tactics and good sense and hold TAB." I was responding to the thoroughly incorrect implication that it is impossible or even exceedingly difficult for a "caster" to take out ghost moths. Again, assuming good tactics and strategy.

By the time you are doing spider, 92 is bad HP even for a DE. 11 AC 23 EV 0 SH is bad defenses by that point, too. On a DE around 14 to 16 dodging would be about right, but I often throw stat ups into dex on DE since they have more than enough intelligence. Beyond haste/might/agility, things like summon spells (easy to get one or two allies before all your MP is drained) or scrolls of summoning and evocations of various types can help a lot. (Getting summons to attack invis targets can be a pain, but usually isn't too difficult.) Between all those things it is not exceedingly dangerous for a well built character to take them out one-on-one.

How are you going to fight Emperor Scorpions, Tarantellas, Wolf Spiders, Jumping Spiders etc. with 0 MP and 48 HP?

Uh... When did I tell peeps to fight wolf spiders and emperor scorps with 48 HP? That would indeed be ill advised, you shouldn't dive Spider as a level 8 or 9 DE. And if you are going to do that don't walk around with 0 MP.

[crate]

so you know that thing you do when you see an enemy?
moving backward?
this is a really good thing to do vs ghost moths
it helpfully lets you fight them alone

[tasonir]

edit:

Ok, here is quaffing Haste and Might before fighting. Do you think 48 HP is enough to fight another Ghost Moth?

I have not fought two ghost moths at once in spider probably ever.

I fought two ghost moths, 2 or 3 emperor scorpions, and a red wasp all at once in spider:5 today. Lost all my mana, kept punching things. i did a slouch or two, but none of them took all that much damage, it was mostly punching things that won the fight. To be fair, I am trying to streak so I picked gargoyle (ie, absurd defenses), but ghost moths are basically no threat at all to melee characters. Once I killed the ghost moths I think I did use a magic potion so I could cast regeneration a few times. I guess this is also in reply to skjari, who said his melee was having trouble also.

Spider is often one of my first choices of lair branches - I tend to run it first when I get it. Snake/Swamp are my next preferred, and then I usually leave shoals until last. I really like spider's monster set, ghost moths aren't much of an issue since I tend to melee.

[tabstorm]

@Sandman25 I think everyone else is assuming a "properly" played DE caster something along the lines of:

1. Get enough skill to use your level 4 spell to get you through early game
2. Take dex on level ups and maybe str for carrying capacity, no int
3. Maybe train a bit more magic for a level 6 bolt or something at some point, but probably not at this point in the game
4. Focus on melee

[Sandman25]

@Sandman25 I think everyone else is assuming a "properly" played DE caster something along the lines of:

1. Get enough skill to use your level 4 spell to get you through early game
2. Take dex on level ups and maybe str for carrying capacity, no int
3. Maybe train a bit more magic for a level 6 bolt or something at some point, but probably not at this point in the game
4. Focus on melee

I see, everyone plays DE as hybrid. I prefer pure casters, I almost always take Int on level ups for DE caster (not Ne) and get level 6 spells really early:

  Code:

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |     7 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||     7
       Dagger            |       |       |     4 |     3 |     3 |       |       |       |       ||    10
       Staff             |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |     2 |       |       ||     5
       Lance             |       |       |       |       |       |    29 |    99 |   243 |   848 ||  1219
 Fire: Blowgun           |       |       |       |     9 |     9 |       |       |       |       ||    18
Throw: Dart              |    18 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||    18
       Dagger            |     6 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||     6
 Cast: Flame Tongue      |    48 |    63 |   197 |   237 |       |       |       |       |       ||   545
       Throw Flame       |    31 |    32 |   135 |   130 |   343 |    41 |    49 |    16 |       ||   777
       Conjure Flame     |       |     2 |    40 |    19 |    17 |     3 |     3 |     4 |       ||    88
       Sticky Flame      |       |       |    14 |    43 |    36 |    98 |    45 |    20 |       ||   256
       Iskenderun's Myst |       |       |     3 |     2 |       |       |       |       |       ||     5
       Fireball          |       |       |       |    91 |   205 |   163 |    57 |   108 |    16 ||   640
       Bolt of Magma     |       |       |       |    46 |   135 |     5 |       |       |       ||   186
       Repel Missiles    |       |       |       |       |   233 |   167 |   227 |   170 |   494 ||  1291
       Bolt of Fire      |       |       |       |       |   293 |   498 |   501 |   422 |  2648 ||  4362
       Poisonous Cloud   |       |       |       |       |    37 |   155 |   147 |    45 |     4 ||   388
       Iron Shot         |       |       |       |       |    37 |    39 |    58 |    74 |   941 ||  1149


http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Sandman25/m ... 024757.txt

[tabstorm]

I generally play DE casters in a similar fashion because it's more enjoyable, and I never seem to have these issues with mana management that everyone else talks about, but regardless, "pure" casters are considered suboptimal generally speaking, and also many players find interaction with enemies in ways that are not melee boring.

[Sandman25]

many players find interaction with enemies in ways that are not melee boring

Also some players play pure melee when they are tired and want to play something really simple (=mindless). I'd like to see a bot who can win with "boring" caster. Melee is trivial, you move either forward or backward

[tabstorm]

Hitting zd zd zd repeatedly for fireball can be considered just as boring, furthermore you don't need to even move and there are fewer positional considerations. I think it's the sort of thing that a bot would struggle with to some extent even if it's relatively easy for a player.

[Sandman25]

Hitting zd zd zd repeatedly for fireball can be considered just as boring, furthermore you don't need to even move and there are fewer positional considerations. I think it's the sort of thing that a bot would struggle with to some extent even if it's relatively easy for a player.

Most casters have more than one spell and use several kinds in a single fight. Good players use bolt spells in some non-obvious way trying to save MP and hurt as many monsters as possible. Also MP management, skill training (including one for MP management), decision when to channel mana in a fight, how to deal with monsters who are immune to specific element, melee character do not have anything like that. Also casters still should deal with all problems related to melee.

[and into]

Positioning matters most when you are doing melee, and positioning is one of the deepest tactical aspects of the game, compared to a dude with spells like fireball. This isn't to say positioning is not important for casters, but you can get away with worse positioning decisions on most ~casters~, most of the time. [/offtopic]

I'd totally get a bolt spell on a DE before level 15, assuming one is available. Why on earth would I be playing a DEFE if I'm not casting lots of spells and using those to kill lots of stuff? I do put a point or two into strength (5 strength is just annoying) and then the rest into dex, though, I just find that gives better overall survivability. I train conjurations only until it catches up to fire (~level 3), then train both equally. Pick up conjure flame at level 3, sticky flame at level 4, then throw flame at level 5. Once sticky flame is at acceptable success rate, train only dodging for quite a while. Then pick up fireball, then melee weapon of choice + fighting. (During this whole time dodging will generally be your highest trained skill.) Then pick up higher spells and/or utility or defense spells as they become available. I don't bother with inner flame.

Assuming you aren't speed running, you can (and should) be higher than level 15 when you do the final floor of a lair rune branch. I mean 14 or 15 levels of Dungeon + Lair + Orc + 4 to 8 levels of rune branches will usually put you at 17 or even 18 by the time you are actually tackling your first rune vault. Even on DE casters it is easy to have ~120+ HP and high 20s EV, with a buckler, and usually at least 16 AC (by not hoarding ?enchant armor). And I still manage to pick up lots of conjurations plus some utility and defense spells, maybe even branching into summoning or necromancy or whatever. Depends on god choice; Vehumet makes it easy, Ash makes it trivial to have three or four cakes and eat them too. On a DEFE I'd mostly kill stuff, and certainly important stuff, with spells. But I hit stuff when it makes sense to hit them. Even on a dude that is primarily a blaster, being somewhat capable at hitting stuff makes my character more powerful and also more enjoyable to play, so I don't gotta create a bunch of noise and regen mana to take out a few green rats or a giant frog or what have you.

[tabstorm]

Your position dosen't matter as much, but on a character with little to no melee skill you need to be able to assess how much MP you need for a given encounter and whether you can win it with how much you have, and then how to get out of said encounter, so the cosiderations are different and may/may not be as "deep" as melee positioning

[Sandman25]

Positioning matters most when you are doing melee, and positioning is one of the deepest tactical aspects of the game, compared to a dude with spells like fireball.

This is main reason why our experience differ IMHO. Fireball is not a trivial spell to use, it cannot be targeted at walls so player should create a situation when adjacent monster is hurt but the player is not. Freeze is closer to melee being a range 1 spell. Yes, positioning matters most for melee, but positioning for spells is more varied and tricky, I find that Fireball/Bolt positioning is more complicated than one of Freeze/melee.
What's so tricky in melee positioning except breaking LoF by hiding behind monsters while you cannot attack? Many spells have different range in orthogonal and diagonal directions, that's trickier IMHO.

[Abominae]

This is main reason why our experience differ IMHO. Fireball is not a trivial spell to use, it cannot be targeted at walls so player should create a situation when adjacent monster is hurt but the player is not. Freeze is closer to melee being a range 1 spell. Yes, positioning matters most for melee, but positioning for spells is more varied and tricky, I find that Fireball/Bolt positioning is more complicated than one of Freeze/melee.
What's so tricky in melee positioning except breaking LoF by hiding behind monsters while you cannot attack? Many spells have different range in orthogonal and diagonal directions, that's trickier IMHO.

I would argue the difference is not that melee positioning is more complicated; it is that melee positioning is incredibly more relevant and integral in comparison to ranged positioning. i.e., proper positioning with melee is way more important for not dying than it is for character who can attack at range.

[Sandman25]

I concur, extremely important and relatively trivial.

[Lasty]

This is an absurd thread. Sandman25 is arguing that their favored build for one of the least melee-capable classes, when built as a pure caster, can't beat a certain monster in melee, and they're choosing to use absurdly unrealistic examples to prove it, including bizarre features like:

* One of the lowest-hp races
* wielding a +4 flail
* trained below minimum delay
* while underleveled
* with awful defenses and hp
* without activating buffs or using allies or tools
* without casting any spells before all mana is drained
* and then going on to fight wolf spiders and emperor scorpions immediately after (successfully!) killing the ghost moth.

This is one of the most elaborately terrible strawmen I've ever seen. You may as well be hypothesizing that you're a mummy surrounded by orbs of fire and wearing a cursed amulet of stasis.

Sandman25, what you should be seeing here is that 1) you have troubles with ghost moths, 2) other people do not, and 3) other people have suggestions for how you can build a character and use tactics such that you don't just lose to ghost moths. This should lead you to listen to 3) so that you can join the ranks of 2) instead of stubbornly insisting that your builds and tactics are implicitly just fine and yet they can't deal with a monster that, while dangerous, others can deal with safely.

I love playing book backgrounds and I love casting spells. I often hybridize my melee-centric characters to use bolt or summoning spells. I think that effective use of the resources you have (weapons, armour, spellbooks, rods, wands, jewelry, EVERYTHING) is both fun and extremely effective. I acknowledge that ghost moths are dangerous, but I also generally kill every ghost moth that spawns in the games I play with every single character I play, and I don't think I've died to them since the month in which they were introduced. I've killed them with melee weapons, I've killed them with wands, I've killed them with god powers, and I've killed them with spells. Yes, that's right. Sticky flame is very good against them -- and so is iron shot, bolt of cold, etc. I've even killed them with extremely frail characters in melee, but because I'm not trying to win an argument, I make sure to choose a situation from which I can escape without additional monsters around, buff up enough, and use every tool in my arsenal. I also don't then rush off and fight a ton of nasty monsters without resting up first.

I've even killed multiple ghost moths and emperor scorpions together on characters whose main offense was magic because I can be a bit bullheaded and foolhardy. It's not that hard if you use your resources and positioning well.

You will get better results in threads like this if you spend the time that you are currently spending trying to convince people that you are right instead making sure that you are right.

[Sandman25]

when built as a pure caster

Sorry, I didn't read after that. +5 demon whip of flaming with 10 M&F, 10 Fighting and 15 Dodging. We have quite a different understanding of what "pure caster" means. Yes, I know 10 M&F is not min delay for Demon Whip.

[Lasty]

In that sentence I'm not referring to your wizmode build, which I detail afterwards. I'm referring to the overall argument you're trying to make, which is from the position:

I prefer pure casters

My criticisms of your strawman wizmode build are spelled out quite clearly below the line at which you chose to stop reading. Of course, I can't stop you from ignoring this post as well, or any other attempt to communicate with you, but that's really on you, not me.

[Magipi]

This is one of the most elaborately terrible strawmen I've ever seen.

Well, a bit later Sandman tried it with a +5 demon whip of flaming, and it still required haste AND might. This suggests that ghost moths might not be trivial.

I think the correct answer is something like this: "even if you have a good weapon and the skill to use it, be sure to buff yourself, because ghost moths are dangerous". Instead of that, however, came this: "I seriously cannot recall any character I've played who started with a book and did lots of casting that wouldn't be able to take a ghost moth 1 vs. 1 in melee by about level 15 or 16." And this came from And into, who is known from his wise advice. Something is pretty wrong here.

[Sandman25]

In that sentence I'm not referring to your wizmode build, which I detail afterwards. I'm referring to the overall argument you're trying to make, which is from the position:

I prefer pure casters

My criticisms of your strawman wizmode build are spelled out quite clearly below the line at which you chose to stop reading. Of course, I can't stop you from ignoring this post as well, or any other attempt to communicate with you, but that's really on you, not me.

This thread discussed many things. My wizmode tests had nothing to do with my preference to use pure casters, I don't see how it is relevant. Sorry for derailing the thread again.

Edit. I have just read your post to the end. Sorry, it's ridiculous. You missed several things, for instance: I am not the only player who has problems with Ghost Moth, it is possible to have problems in melee with Ghost Moth even as melee character (yes, I have such experience too), I am not suggesting to melee Ghost Moth (actually I am trying to prove that caster (pure or not) is NOT expected and should NOT melee invisible Ghost Moth by default).
Please be careful, when writing "have problems in melee with Ghost Moth" it doesn't mean that the character died or didn't use other tools before melee.

[Lasty]

With Haste and Might he took care of it handily, losing only 50% of their HP, even though they're still using an underleveled character with bad defenses and stats. They then moved the goalposts and asked if that seems good enough to fight a second one.

Oh, and in this imaginary fight he had no rPois, or ego armour of any kind, or even jewelry, used no potions, scrolls, or evocables, or spells. I missed some of that before.

You're right that the tone of this got worse, but I lay the blame on that squarely at Sandman25's feet. When you start actively making a conversation worse by trying to trick people with fake "examples" and goalpost-moving, the conversation really can't actually continue in a productive way.