New Race: Borean Dwarfs

[Deep Dwarf Fighter]

The few surface-dwelling dwarfs that survived the slaughter of their race by the hands of the Hill Orcs fled to the far north. Ever struggling for survival in the northern wastes and snow-covered mountains, they became adept hunters and fishermen - they are called the Borean Dwarfs. The art of battle and fine craftsmanship was not lost to them however; in fact, the furnace of a settlement is considered sacred - a kindling flame in a field of eternal ice. Seeing that the gods had abandoned them, they turned to a shamanistic belief system instead. They lost their touch with earth magic, now rather calling upon the fire to keep them alive and harnessing the power of ice that constantly surrounds them. One day, these grim, ironclad warriors of the north will reclaim their homeland.

Aptitudes

Fighting: +1
Armour: +3
Stealth: -2
Shields: +1
Dodging: -1

Short Blades: -1
Long Blades: -2
Axes: +1
Maces and Flails: -1
Polearms: +1
Staves: -1
Unarmed Combat: +1

Throwing: +1
Bows: -1
Slings: 0
Crossbows: +1

Spellcasting: -2
Conjurations: -2
Hexes: +1
Charms: -2
Summonings: -2
Necromancy: 0
Translocations: -2
Transmutation: -1

Fire Magic: +3
Ice Magic: +2
Earth Magic: -3
Air Magic: -3
Poison Mgic: -3

Invocations: -2
Evocations: +3

Experience: -1

Level-up Bonuses

+1 strength every 4th level.
20% more HP than average.
Average MP.
+5 magic resistance per level.

Special Abilites

-Borean Dwarfs gain small bonuses when using dwarven equipment. Pretend you didn't read this.
-Hibernation: Borean Dwarfs can regenerate HP, but only when they cease all movement and enter a torpor-like state. This allows HP regen, but slows them down. The length of their slow down depends on char lvl and amount of HP restored. Once slowed they only begin warming up again when they are in the thick of it, killing enemies.
-Hatred: Borean Dwarfs gain a bonus to damage and accuracy when fighting against orcs. MAY BE REMOVED OR CHANGED
-Doubt: Double piety cost for calling upon divine powers.
-Super awersome ability (pending).

Credit not given to:

-Every single poster in this thread, including myself.

[Psiweapon]

I'm all for a comeback but I doubt the Warrior Spirit thing will fly. What the fuck do I know, though.

[Deep Dwarf Fighter]

I'm all for a comeback but I doubt the Warrior Spirit thing will fly. What the fuck do I know, though.

Of course, the cooldown would have to be very long, but if it's still too problematic of an ability, it can easily be replaced with something else. Suggestions are very much appreciated.

[Amnesiac]

I think xbows suit dwarves better. I like them, overall, even though I don't play warriors.

[Psiweapon]

I think xbows suit dwarves better. I like them, overall, even though I don't play warriors.

That too.

[pubby]

The 'doubt' ability is one that I like, but the others need to go. 'Hatred' is too specific, and 'Warrior spirit' is something that crawl shouldn't have.

Aptitude-wise, the only problems that sticks out are some of their spell schools. Here's what I suggest:

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Spellcasting: -2
Conjurations: -2 (IE and FE is too good with 0 conj apt)
Charms: -2 (dwarves are not merfolk)
Necromancy: 0
Air Magic: -3 (you left this off)


Anyway, aptitudes are not a big deal at this point. I think the more important thing is to have interesting abilities. 'Doubt' is a start, but you need more.

[cerebovssquire]

These aptitudes are incredibly good. You don't need Earth or Air if you have a strong element, you don't need another weapon class if you have polearms and axes to choose from, Armour and Fighting are great, they can get Haste really quickly and they can even do physical ranged well - the negative apts don't really mean much considering that. Add warrior spirit and great HP onto that and the species would definitely need a nerf. Damage bonus against orcs is actually pretty strong as well given that orc wizards in particular are one of the most dangerous enemies in early D.
A new species needs a niche and this species' niche seems to be being really good and also having slow piety gain. The first isn't very interesting and causes balance issues. Slow piety gain is relevant, of course, but some gods are already very good at * (e.g. fedhas, okawaru, trog) and this ceases to be important in many cases once you hit high piety, so I don't think the impact on gameplay would be big enough to justify a whole new race by itself.

[dpeg]

Best not to refer to dwarven equipment at all. (This is not your fault: as long as racial equipment exists, and you're talking about a species of such a type, you're obliged to take it into account. But the fact that you sensibly write "small bonus" makes it meaningless.)

(Disclaimer: I'll pretend there was no pretext to this proposal.)

On hatred against some kind of monster type: that'd set a precedent, and I'm not sure if it's a good one. Would monster orcs also fight better against the dwarves? It would be fun if this property would make it better (or more often better) to enter Orc early, but I'm not sure that's achievable. For that, we would need something else, like the racial power to buy an ego for a mundane armour item at an armour shop (each shop only used once). It's a wacky idea, but it's also very late here. The flavour would probably be okay.

Warrior Spirit: so it's feigning death. Since we already have the good gods, I am not convinced.

Doubt: I actually like this, because I'd like a species to assess gods differently. Merely slower piety gain would probably just translate to less fun, though. What about standard piety gain, but doubled piety costs for powers? (These are not equivalent.)

Regarding aptitudes in general, I wonder if we should've been bolder and make a coarser scale (with seven steps, for example).

[Amnesiac]

What's the big deal with one race being given that ability to survive one deadly blow. Yes we have good gods, but we also have summoning while there are divine summons like Mak's and Trog's.

[Leafsnail]

Warrior Spirit would probably be broken when combined with an instant escape option like Death's Door or Sanctuary.

[and into]

What's the big deal with one race being given that ability to survive one deadly blow. Yes we have good gods, but we also have summoning while there are divine summons like Mak's and Trog's.

Trog disallows magic and thus disallows most forms of reliable and reusable ally acquirement. (Whoa totally off topic idea: Maybe ?acquirement should have an "ally" option that would give you a permanent ally in the manner of mercenary card?) Anyway Trog is extremely powerful but also one of the best designed gods so who cares.

TSO gives unique allies that are particularly powerful in certain situations, and also buffs those allies based on how much undead/demons they destroy. That's a distinct mechanic.

With Makhleb I agree there is some redundancy, but the overlap there would be far better handled simply by removing the spells Summon Demon and Summon Greater Demon from the game, while keeping Makhleb as he is now. It isn't like the book of Summonings and the Grand Grimoire would become underpowered if you simply removed both of those seldom used and (in terms of level, as well as in terms of the other spells available in the very books they appear in!) underwhelming spells.

Like species choice, god choice is, ipso facto, an important and interesting decision, and so any abilities that are god-given or species-given become part of a decision-making process that is more crucial than experience allocation, anyway. That adds some degree of interest in itself, and is (in part) why having god-given and species-innate abilities overlap is worse than having some overlap between god-given abilities and skill-mediated abilities (though yes, ideally there wouldn't be too much overlap between the latter, either).

[duvessa]

Looks to me like you renamed mountain dwarves, swapped a couple pairs of aptitudes, and then slapped on the first gimmick you thought of (which happens to closely copy an existing feature) so you can say it's "unique".

Doubt: I actually like this, because I'd like a species to assess gods differently.

Slower piety gain is already a feature of the races that rest more, though.

[and into]

Doubt: I actually like this, because I'd like a species to assess gods differently.

Slower piety gain is already a feature of the races that rest more, though.

Yes, good point—but I think that's why dpeg recommended "double piety cost" as a more interesting innate characteristic for a species.

Slower piety gain could (IMO) be an interesting drawback as an item property for an unrandart, however.

[nicolae]

Doubt: I actually like this, because I'd like a species to assess gods differently.

Slower piety gain is already a feature of the races that rest more, though.

Yes, good point—but I think that's why dpeg recommended "double piety cost" as a more interesting innate characteristic for a species.

Slower piety gain could (IMO) be an interesting drawback as an item property for an unrandart, however.

Here's a possibly-stupid idea: a species who, for some reason, is unable to devote themselves fully to divinities and as such, their piety is capped at, say, 4 stars.

Edit: I wonder how a more general approach to this idea might work, a species with pretty good aptitudes but with skills capped at, say, 18 (2/3rds of 27). Some sort of ancient, strange species, unable to fully process or commit to modern-day skills or gods. Like some kind of cave person, frozen in ice for tens of millennia...

Edit 2: For an ice based species, perhaps they've evolved thick blood that keeps them warm but unless they keep their blood moving it thickens up and they suffer some kind of slowing. It would penalize frequent resting, in other words, though that might not be desirable.

[cerebovssquire]

Edit 2: For an ice based species, perhaps they've evolved thick blood that keeps them warm but unless they keep their blood moving it thickens up and they suffer some kind of slowing. It would penalize frequent resting, in other words, though that might not be desirable.

cholesterol dwarf

following their removal from the game, the frustrated mountain dwarves went to mcdonalds and ate a lot of junk food to forget their troubles. now they're back, they're angry, and they have an increased risk for diabetes and arteriosclerosis!

Edit: I wonder how a more general approach to this idea might work, a species with pretty good aptitudes but with skills capped at, say, 18 (2/3rds of 27). Some sort of ancient, strange species, unable to fully process or commit to modern-day skills or gods. Like some kind of cave person, frozen in ice for tens of millennia...

The piety cap is a lot more impactful than this since a ton of characters don't want skills over 18 in the first place. I think it has the tendency to remove choices rather than add them though, much like very biased aptitudes do with skills, because some gods just become bad (e.g. okawaru, yredelemnul) and don't factor into your decision anymore.

[nicolae]

cholesterol dwarf

following their removal from the game, the frustrated mountain dwarves went to mcdonalds and ate a lot of junk food to forget their troubles. now they're back, they're angry, and they have an increased risk for diabetes and arteriosclerosis!

perfect

The piety cap is a lot more impactful than this since a ton of characters don't want skills over 18 in the first place. I think it has the tendency to remove choices rather than add them though, much like very biased aptitudes do with skills, because some gods just become bad (e.g. okawaru, yredelemnul) and don't factor into your decision anymore.

Yeah, that's a good point. Now, what if we try the opposite idea, and have a species with a seventh piety star-- *dragged offstage by giant hook*

[dck]

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dck the Banest of Scribes (level 13, -20/137 HPs)
             Began as a Fatdorf Death Knight on Feb 16, 2014.
             Was a super-champion of Trog.

[XomNoticesYou]

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 Fatdorf

This makes me think of some kind of Dwarf Fortress style dorfs - TBH though most of the humorous abilities such a race would have exist elsewhere (though a species with inherent uncontrollable rage and that can sometimes forge a randart WOULD be funny!)

Also I guess they could Summon Cats and Name Summoned Cats, but that's a whole 'nother joke.

[Deep Dwarf Fighter]

Thanks for all the replies. From what I understand so far, I will:

-Change/nerf some aptitudes (for example from bow to xbow)
-Remove Warrior Spirit
-Do something more with Doubt as many people suggested
-Come up with a super awersome and never-seen-before ability or two

The first three can be done with the flick of a wrist, for the last one, however, I will need to meditate in a secluded Buddhist monastery for a few years in hopes of having an epiphany.
But do not falter, I am convinced that we can make this race work.

[phobetor]

What if all their piety costs are doubled, but as a benefit they can freely switch gods without wrath and maybe keep some piety?

[Deep Dwarf Fighter]

How about this for an ability, based on the 'cholesterol' dwarf:

Soul Fire: Casting spells draws upon the user's body warmth instead of hungering him. Casting too many spells without resting causes the user to suffer hypothermia with increasingly severe effects (from slowed to exhausted to DEAD. D-E-D, DEAD).
He can also use this ability to temporarily imbue a weapon with fire, gaining the flaming brand and +1 accuracy.

Hrm, maybe every action should use up body warmth in exchange for a slow metabolism, but then they'd be like reverse lava orcs thematically...

[cerebovssquire]

Hrm, maybe every action should use up body warmth in exchange for a slow metabolism, but then they'd be like reverse lava orcs thematically...

(it would also be really strange since doing stuff in the cold is what keeps you warm)

This mechanic applied to spells isn't that different from hunger. You can only cast a certain amount of times before you get hypothermia. That isn't very different to starving where you can only cast a certain number of times before you get Starving status. Dying instantly from hypothermia is never going to happen unless you are inattentive (which is a very frustrating death, a problem in itself), so it wouldn't ever come up in a normal game. In practice, that kind of effect is just like starving status with regards to preventing casting, and then you might as well stick with the food system. It could be more extreme or unaffected by the Spellcasting skill, but the mechanic annoys players even in its current, rather moderate form.

If hypothermia applies to resting like nicolae suggested that creates tension because you need to keep doing stuff or suffer consequences. Your proposal may, in effect, be just like the hunger system with a different name in most situations.

[Deep Dwarf Fighter]

Hrm, maybe every action should use up body warmth in exchange for a slow metabolism, but then they'd be like reverse lava orcs thematically...

(it would also be really strange since doing stuff in the cold is what keeps you warm)

This mechanic applied to spells isn't that different from hunger. You can only cast a certain amount of times before you get hypothermia. That isn't very different to starving where you can only cast a certain number of times before you get Starving status. Dying instantly from hypothermia is never going to happen unless you are inattentive (which is a very frustrating death, a problem in itself), so it wouldn't ever come up in a normal game. In practice, that kind of effect is just like starving status with regards to preventing casting, and then you might as well stick with the food system. It could be more extreme or unaffected by the Spellcasting skill, but the mechanic annoys players even in its current, rather moderate form.

If hypothermia applies to resting like nicolae suggested that creates tension because you need to keep doing stuff or suffer consequences. Your proposal may, in effect, be just like the hunger system with a different name in most situations.

Suggestions shamelessly stolen and implemented. I would give credit, but I can't because I'm Morshu.

[cerebovssquire]

If I interpret "standing idle" correctly - meaning that movement would prevent hypothermia - that's realistic, but in gameplay it would cause problematic behaviour. You wouldn't want players to be able to "rest" by walking back and forth around a room as that would be annoying and take a really long time. It should only be affected by actions like melee/ranged combat or consumable use. Spellcasting should factor into this in order to not make purely spellcasting borean dwarves impossible, but you can cast spells when no monsters are around in order to rest without getting hypothermia. Maybe damaging monsters could be the only thing to reduce hypothermia, but then you could keep a few slugs f in safe rooms to hit when you need to rest without getting cold.
I don't know how that issue would be solved (other than allowing the species to only regain HP when not doing anything, maybe?) but it's still important to note that this ability can easily be abused if not designed correctly, and certainly can be abused in its current proposed form.

[and into]

I don't know how that issue would be solved (other than allowing the species to only regain HP when not doing anything, which creates an inconsistency with other species)

Actually, that's what came to mind, though. Note that this would keep up and extend Crawl's idiosyncratic take on Dwarfs, which is that they have bizarre HP regen traits. Unlike their Deep Dwarf cousins, Borean Dwarves can regenerate HP, but only when they cease all movement and enter a torpor-like state. This allows HP regen, but slows them down (I don't think death should result from resting). The length of their slow down depends on char lvl and amount of HP restored. Once slowed they only begin warming up again when they are in the thick of it, killing enemies. (Just walking around or doing anything else grindy like that won't do it.)

With a mechanic like that, I think you could get away with giving them a powerful innate ability and good aptitudes.

[cerebovssquire]

But can you still keep trivial non-sentient enemies in a room to warm up ("in the thick of it, killing enemies")? If killing enemies warms you up, then the slowing down isn't preventable by tedious strategies but the warming up is abusable.

[and into]

But can you still keep trivial non-sentient enemies in a room to warm up ("in the thick of it, killing enemies")? If killing enemies warms you up, then the slowing down isn't preventable by tedioustrategies but the warming up is abusable.

Well I think making the B. Dwarf's recovery from slowness experience-mediated like Drain would be fine. Note that technically you can keep weak enemies in a room somewhere to grind back from drained status, but because in most cases enemies that are weak in comparison to you don't give notable experience, you'd be fine. Plus if you end up taking unneeded damage trying to recover from slowness, you are back where you started. It would be a question of tweaking the numbers, but in practice I bet you could make it functionally non-abusable.

[Deep Dwarf Fighter]

I don't know how that issue would be solved (other than allowing the species to only regain HP when not doing anything, which creates an inconsistency with other species)

Actually, that's what came to mind, though. Note that this would keep up and extend Crawl's idiosyncratic take on Dwarfs, which is that they have bizarre HP regen traits. Unlike their Deep Dwarf cousins, Borean Dwarves can regenerate HP, but only when they cease all movement and enter a torpor-like state. This allows HP regen, but slows them down (I don't think death should result from resting). The length of their slow down depends on char lvl and amount of HP restored. Once slowed they only begin warming up again when they are in the thick of it, killing enemies. (Just walking around or doing anything else grindy like that won't do it.)

With a mechanic like that, I think you could get away with giving them a powerful innate ability and good aptitudes.

The word hibernation came to my mind.

[Arkhan]

That would be cool except there's this new race that's slow at first and gets faster in combat called Lava Orcs.

...

Wait, is the orc in this case beating the dwarf AGAIN?

[WalkerBoh]

Quick! Rename them Lava Dwarves and cut them from the game!

[Deep Dwarf Fighter]

Quick! Rename them Lava Dwarves and cut them from the game!

Sarcasm thy name is WalkerBoh...

Edit: I didn't quite understand that 'buy a certain item ego'-ability that was suggested to replace Hatred.

Currently, the poor Borean Dwarfs have two non-trivial negative abilites and since Hatred will probably not make it, I will see if I can come up with a positive trait.

[nicolae]

If I interpret "standing idle" correctly - meaning that movement would prevent hypothermia - that's realistic, but in gameplay it would cause problematic behaviour. You wouldn't want players to be able to "rest" by walking back and forth around a room as that would be annoying and take a really long time.

Yeha, I realized a little while after I made the suggestion that this would just make players macro a "boreal dwarf rest" command that moves you back and forth for a hundred turns.

[Psiweapon]

Cold metabolism:

The guys actually come from hell-freezes-over cold mountaintops and their metabolism has become cold-based. When not fighting, they are slow, but they also have high regen rates and have some sort of ozocubu's armor. The catch is, after a while fighting, they start to overheat and melt: their regen rate goes down, as do their combat bonuses. They also speed up.

This should make players to try and approach battles carefully, so as long as they're short they have an advantage, but they end up losing them in an attrition battle. Bonus dwarf points if the weirdness can be linked to metabolism.

Does it make any sense?

Edit: alternatively, make the ice bonuses tied to HP and MP. If you expend or sustain damage to any of the two, your ice bonuses are lowered until they are regained. Conversely, as soon as they heal, you regain glacial potency; and if their maximum goes up (hello ring of power) the powers also scale up.

[nicolae]

The guys actually come from hell-freezes-over cold mountaintops and their metabolism has become cold-based. When not fighting, they are slow, but they also have high regen rates and have some sort of ozocubu's armor. The catch is, after a while fighting, they start to overheat and melt: their regen rate goes down, as do their combat bonuses. They also speed up.

This sounds a lot like Lava Orcs, which is another reason I ended up not super-enthusiastic about the "thick blood" suggestion I made: it makes a lot of swingy personal changes in response to tactical situations.

This should make players to try and approach battles carefully, so as long as they're short they have an advantage, but they end up losing them in an attrition battle.

Shouldn't players already be approaching battles carefully and avoiding long attrition battles? A downside is hardly effective if it only penalizes things you weren't supposed to be doing anyway.

One thought I had was that a species coming from the frozen north might have some kind of mystical connection *handwaves vaguely* to the Northern Lights, and are imbued with their essence, giving them some related benefit at the cost of being permanently Corona'd.

[Psiweapon]

The guys actually come from hell-freezes-over cold mountaintops and their metabolism has become cold-based. When not fighting, they are slow, but they also have high regen rates and have some sort of ozocubu's armor. The catch is, after a while fighting, they start to overheat and melt: their regen rate goes down, as do their combat bonuses. They also speed up.

This sounds a lot like Lava Orcs, which is another reason I ended up not super-enthusiastic about the "thick blood" suggestion I made: it makes a lot of swingy personal changes in response to tactical situations.

Of course. Posting here doesn't require any qualification yet (for posts to actually stay here, that's an entirely different matter! )

This should make players to try and approach battles carefully, so as long as they're short they have an advantage, but they end up losing them in an attrition battle.

Shouldn't players already be approaching battles carefully and avoiding long attrition battles? A downside is hardly effective if it only penalizes things you weren't supposed to be doing anyway.

True that!

One thought I had was that a species coming from the frozen north might have some kind of mystical connection *handwaves vaguely* to the Northern Lights, and are imbued with their essence, giving them some related benefit at the cost of being permanently Corona'd.

[spudwalt]

One thought I had was that a species coming from the frozen north might have some kind of mystical connection *handwaves vaguely* to the Northern Lights, and are imbued with their essence, giving them some related benefit at the cost of being permanently Corona'd.

Hmm, a race that's permanently glowing... That could be interesting. Maybe we could repurpose the Djinni contamination resistance? (They're less affected by magical contamination, since they're always glowing with magical energies.)

It would kinda drop their EV down the toilet, though. Plus, they wouldn't be able to go invisible (though that's probably not a huge problem).

[nicolae]

Hmm, a race that's permanently glowing... That could be interesting. Maybe we could repurpose the Djinni contamination resistance? (They're less affected by magical contamination, since they're always glowing with magical energies.)

Corona is distinct from magical glow, though.

[spudwalt]

Yeah, I know they're different, but my brain was just thinking of possible advantages to glowing. Contamination does cause a Corona-like effect, IIRC.

[nicolae]

Yeah, I know they're different, but my brain was just thinking of possible advantages to glowing. Contamination does cause a Corona-like effect, IIRC.

In the past I've suggested similar things, but the response to them all has pretty much been that getting bonuses from some negative status effect (rot, poison, magical glow, etc.) would probably just encourage bad play and degenerate behavior.

[khalil]

Yeah, I know they're different, but my brain was just thinking of possible advantages to glowing. Contamination does cause a Corona-like effect, IIRC.

In the past I've suggested similar things, but the response to them all has pretty much been that getting bonuses from some negative status effect (rot, poison, magical glow, etc.) would probably just encourage bad play and degenerate behavior.

In the case of some negitive status effects, it would probably depend on how dangerous the source is. Poison would be bad, cuz then you'd probably be kiting adders from d1 or something stupid.
In the case of some kind of fanciful status effect that comes from being punched by ceberov, I could see people avoiding it because of the inherent risk of getting fire stormed.
Unless they're playing dijin, but they're a cluster of bad design decisions. (Hellfire resistance? Really?)

[Viashino_wizard]

Something off the top of my head, but afaik Crawl doesn't have a species that gets stronger at low health, which seems like a cool and thematic design space for Viking Dwarfs to play around in. Like a slaying/spell power bonus that scales with your % of health missing, or something similar.

[Sar]

Demonspawn-unique mutation called "Augmentation" used to do that. It didn't work well because in Crawl, if you are on low HP you want to run. Now it provides these bonuses at high health instead.

[Viashino_wizard]

Hm, good point.

Some level of Slow Metabolism could work on these guys, since they hibernate and all (which would also help deal with the fact that, after hibernating, you have to explore moving slowly until you find some enemies). And possibly innate Potion conservation, rC+, rF+ and/or rPoison since they're hardy dudes who live in cold regions and have a racial connection to fire? I feel like the offset bonus for Hibernation and Doubt shouldn't be anything too complex since both of those are already new mechanics. We don't want them to have the Djinni problem.

In terms of how to get rid of the slow from hibernating, an alternative to experience gain is tension, the way Lava Orcs heat up. The higher your tension, the faster your slow wears off, with the duration not going down at all at 0 tension. It has the same general effect (fighting weak opponents has barely any effect, but fighting a Pan lord gets you fired up right away), but it lets you get rid of your slow during the fight with strong enemies instead of having to kill them first.