Proposal: Draconian Revisions


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Post Wednesday, 22nd January 2014, 18:45

Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Proposal: (Take 3!)
Modify the draconians according to the following:
~ Purple - option 1 )add 'slowing' to the effects of the dispelling bolt. Each effect (e.g. slowing, dispel haste, dispel invisibility, etc.) of the bolt would be subject to MR.
- option 2) breath weapon creates clouds of anti-magic. clouds do damage based on the creatures affinity to magic and creatures act as though struck by an anti-magic weapon.

~ White - reduce breath weapon range by 1. Add an effect to the breath weapon to create a slippery floor with an impact like Leda's liquefaction. Creatures of heat or of sufficient weight will collapse this ice sheet.

~ Yellow - acid spit has chance of striking the target's eyes (if it has them) rendering them blind and distracted while they clear off their face. +1 earth magic, +1 poison magic.

~ Black - replace breath weapon with 'Enervating Shock'; this attack does not target but affects all monsters adjacent to player and may arc outward to adjacent monsters; path always travels outward. The enervating shock damages per static discharge and has a chance based on HD to slow (edit: or paralyze like sticking your finger in an electrical socket) natural monsters.

~ Red - No Change
~ Green - No Change
~ Mottled - No Change
~ Pale - No Change
~ Grey - No Change

Reasoning:
After playing quite a few draconians it became rather obvious that some of them simply lack a tactically interesting breath weapon. Red, Green, Mottled, Pale and in some sense even Grey, all have fun ways to impact the playing field. I don't think they need any modifications in breath, resistances, or aptitudes. The rest have a breath weapon that really is just to do damage. But rarely does this damage compare to one's other options. They are just not worth the keystrokes, it's far more ergonomic and simple to just press tab an extra time or two. To make the other colors more interesting I suggest that the breath weapons provide some tactically interesting benefit (i.e. not just damage).

Purple
The purple breath is incredibly underwhelming, combining low damage with a hunger cost and a situational ability that turns out to be rare. In general, if you really need to dispel the invisibility or haste on that creature then you are far better to flee. For research sake, I tried to dispel Rupert, but it missed so I teleported away. Anti-magic clouds are a currently unfilled option and could provide some benefit through the game.
Yellow
I played a yellow draconian through to victory and made a decided effort to spit acid at everything (280 spits!); it did some damage and by lair:8 I could take a water moccasin from no damage to lightly damaged. It was almost always better to do something else though. A blinding spit is flavourful and could be used to influence combat. However, even with an interesting breath weapon they should have some aptitude bonus to match the draconian theme and I propose a hybrid bonus of +1 earth and +1 poison.
White
Again I made a strong effort to use this breath weapon everytime that I could remember but given its already short range and low damage it was agony to test. A freezing effect would be very useful.
~Black - the breath weapon is simply pointless. I would maybe use it if it were not loud, but it is loud. It also misses a lot. It takes a bit of imagining to come up with a situation where this breath weapon is a good use of a turn.
Last edited by Tenaya on Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 17:45, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Wednesday, 22nd January 2014, 19:03

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Tenaya wrote:~ Purple - option 1 )add 'slowing' to the effects of the dispelling bolt. Each effect (e.g. slowing, dispel haste, dispel invisibility, etc.) of the bolt would be subject to MR.
- option 2) breath weapon creates clouds of anti-magic. clouds do damage based on the creatures affinity to magic and creatures act as though struck by an anti-magic weapon.


I've wondered if it might be more useful if the purple draconian breath dispelled as well as reducing MR, though that might make monster purple draconians more of a pain.

~ White - reduce breath weapon range by 1. Add an effect to the breath weapon to freeze water (making it temporarily solid and expelling water borne creatures) or create a slippery floor with an impact like Leda's liquefaction. Creatures of heat or of sufficient weight will collapse this ice sheet.


Ice bridges are on the Won't Be Implemented list.

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Post Wednesday, 22nd January 2014, 22:46

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

nicolae wrote:Ice bridges are on the Won't Be Implemented list.

I dont think this is the same thing. the OP proposal mimics an effect that already exists, Leda's Liquefaction.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd January 2014, 22:48

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Hirsch I wrote:
nicolae wrote:Ice bridges are on the Won't Be Implemented list.

I dont think this is the same thing. the OP proposal mimics an effect that already exists, Leda's Liquefaction.


Add an effect to the breath weapon to freeze water (making it temporarily solid and expelling water borne creatures)


I'm not sure what other effect was being suggested by "making it temporarily solid".

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Post Wednesday, 22nd January 2014, 23:02

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

nicolae wrote:
Hirsch I wrote:
nicolae wrote:Ice bridges are on the Won't Be Implemented list.

I dont think this is the same thing. the OP proposal mimics an effect that already exists, Leda's Liquefaction.


Add an effect to the breath weapon to freeze water (making it temporarily solid and expelling water borne creatures)


I'm not sure what other effect was being suggested by "making it temporarily solid".


The effect I had intended was to exclude swimmers from using the water and then creating a slippery surface on top. The side effect of creating a temporary solid surface and then leading to a drowning insta-death would be a problem. So I edited my proposal to exclude the solidifying effect of the cold on water.
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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 02:18

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

I agree with changing the purple. I've often wondered what the appeal was. It could use a little bit of an inflation.

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 02:27

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Purple is already one of the better colours really, the breath weapon is mostly useless but it does get the best resistance and its aptitude bonuses.

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 02:29

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Black drac breath is actually quite good. It is pretty close to a disc of storms with no evocation requirement (though obviously also less powerful than really-high-evo disc). Personally I find it the most fun drac breath.

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 05:12

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

I think that the best change would be to simply remove yellow draconians.

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 17:40

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Please note that this proposal is not solely based on any specific characteristic of the draconian sub-species. They all differ in breath weapon power, usefulness of aptitudes bonus, usefulness of resistance, and overall strength. What I am propose is to remedy what is lacking in each of them, i.e. purple has useless breath, yellow and white have no tactical differentiation from humans, and black has useless breath.

duvessa wrote:Purple is already one of the better colours really, the breath weapon is mostly useless but it does get the best resistance and its aptitude bonuses.

Yes, getting purple as the mature color is great. So, let's make the breath weapon useful and interesting, please.

sanka wrote:I think that the best change would be to simply remove yellow draconians.

Or we could make the breath weapon useful and interesting and give them an aptitude bonus to match their cousins.

crate wrote:Black drac breath is actually quite good. It is pretty close to a disc of storms with no evocation requirement (though obviously also less powerful than really-high-evo disc). Personally I find it the most fun drac breath.


That is good that you think it fun and good; I disagree because it rarely advances my desired outcome. It is, in my opinion, very different from a disc of storms because of the breath timer. A disc of storms can be repeatedly evoked to catch the mobs that it misses; the black breath gets a single shot, misses, and then as punishment for trying, wakes other monsters. I think my 'electrical socket' idea is interesting and useful.

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 17:53

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Doesn't white breath have knockback?

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 17:55

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

On flying enemies only.

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 17:56

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

dck wrote:On flying enemies only.
thats wrong, stop making this bullshit up

it knocks back flying players too

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 17:59

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Then making it knockback non-flying players/monsters seems like a pretty simple thing to make it more interesting, and a lot more transparent (I had absolutely no idea that there was a difference between flying and not flying).

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 18:02

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Note that this makes fighting ice dragons and white dr as a Te rather infuriating, so making every cold breath have kb for everyone doesn't sound like fun.
More importantly, does enemy white breath ignore ac like player's does?

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 18:06

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

dck wrote:Note that this makes fighting ice dragons and white dr as a Te rather infuriating, so making every cold breath have kb for everyone doesn't sound like fun.


I don't know ... I think it might add some nice tactical flavour to Zot if the ice dragons and white draconians had a knockback effect.
I like my 'freeze floor' effect more, but this might be a nice simple change.

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 18:07

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

For the white draconian, the Leda's liquefaction seems at odds with an ice dragon's flavor - what if the white draconian breath had the effect of freezing cloud with a smaller area of effect - a straight line blast of 1-4 tiles. If breath effects change with experience, the line of the cloud could get bigger over time.

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 18:11

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Good enemies can exist without gimmicks; although not great like storm dragons, ice dragons are already good enemies (leaving itemdest aside) and adding an extra effect to their breaths makes them rather busy and worse imo.

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 18:13

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

dialectric wrote:For the white draconian, the Leda's liquefaction seems at odds with an ice dragon's flavor - what if the white draconian breath had the effect of freezing cloud with a smaller area of effect - a straight line blast of 1-4 tiles. If breath effects change with experience, the line of the cloud could get bigger over time.


I thought of this but I thought it too similar to Red-flame cloud, Green-mephitic cloud, Pale-steam cloud, and (hopefully) Purple-anti-magic cloud, and (sort of) Mottled-flame cloud that sticks to the monster.
The flavor question is answered by it not being "Leda's Liquefaction", it is "Frozen Floor"(which just happens to act like Leda's Liqefaction).

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 18:49

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

dck wrote:Good enemies can exist without gimmicks; although not great like storm dragons, ice dragons are already good enemies (leaving itemdest aside) and adding an extra effect to their breaths makes them rather busy and worse imo.


But like playable ogres, formacids, etc, playable draconians need not have exactly the same abilities as enemy draconians.

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Post Thursday, 23rd January 2014, 20:29

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

dck wrote:More importantly, does enemy white breath ignore ac like player's does?
yes (i still don't understand why white drac breath ignores ac)
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Post Friday, 24th January 2014, 02:06

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

duvessa wrote:
dck wrote:More importantly, does enemy white breath ignore ac like player's does?
yes (i still don't understand why white drac breath ignores ac)


It is probably because it is temperature related and the AC is to defend against a force attack.
The one creating the concept or rule probably did not take the fact that it is clothing into account.

IMHO with a clothing concept, temperature-derived damage could be averted based on the number of slots consumed.
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Post Friday, 24th January 2014, 02:26

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

XuaXua wrote:
duvessa wrote:
dck wrote:More importantly, does enemy white breath ignore ac like player's does?
yes (i still don't understand why white drac breath ignores ac)


It is probably because it is temperature related
unlike bolt of cold?

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Post Friday, 24th January 2014, 04:10

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Black draconians are awesome, air magic is really a good one to have and rElec saves lives (your life especially), they fly to boot. Yes, their breath is very random but it's also very powerful, that's kind of the thing with air magic really. Giving them a better breath might just make them too good?

Purple and white too... their breath might look underwhelming (for different reasons) but then again good resist/aptitudes really make up for it.

The one that's really unimpressive is yellow, no apt bonuses, a *very* situational resist (only really good in slime and zot? you'll probably have an amulet by then and even if you don't workarounds are possible) and a breath that just doesn't make up for it, i think this is the only one that needs more love, even the acidic bite isn't all that awesome. i think they would be ok if they had just *any* kind of extra apt, how about a +1 unarmed? with the "kit" they have it would make sense.

The other one however i feel is a bit unloved lately would be grey: while it is one of those that are really good no matter what plan you had for them (well, unless it was getting tornado online asap) they just "feel" too similar to gargoyles lately imho and... somehow inferior, possibly because i only experienced pre-nerf gargoyles. a +1 to unarmed here might also be a good solution, it would make sense if a dragon species whitout a breath attack would develop a fiercer melee (or maybe a +1 fighting).
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Post Friday, 24th January 2014, 04:14

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

duvessa wrote:
XuaXua wrote:It is probably because it is temperature related


unlike bolt of cold?


Or bolt of fire? Or literally every single fire/ice spell that isn't freeze, Ozocubo's refridgeration, or sticky flame?
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Post Friday, 24th January 2014, 04:35

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

What if Yellow got a defensive acid attack? (like Jellies)
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Post Friday, 24th January 2014, 04:57

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

duvessa wrote:
XuaXua wrote:It is probably because it is temperature related
unlike bolt of cold?


Bolt of cold is a physical shard you can block with a shield. I'd envision the breath to be like an all-encompassing wind chill.
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Post Friday, 24th January 2014, 05:12

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

XuaXua wrote:
duvessa wrote:
XuaXua wrote:It is probably because it is temperature related
unlike bolt of cold?


Bolt of cold is a physical shard you can block with a shield. I'd envision the breath to be like an all-encompassing wind chill.


Aren't you thinking of Throw Icicle? Bolt of Cold pierces enemies, much unlike a blockable shard.

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Post Friday, 24th January 2014, 05:13

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

XuaXua wrote:
duvessa wrote:
XuaXua wrote:It is probably because it is temperature related
unlike bolt of cold?


Bolt of cold is a physical shard you can block with a shield. I'd envision the breath to be like an all-encompassing wind chill.


Bolt of cold cannot be blocked with a shield—that includes from frost giants. Neither can the "freezing blast" from ice dragons nor the "chilling blast" from white draconians be blocked.

Are you thinking of throw icicle? That's the only ice spell that is described as a physical shard (of ice). That can be blocked.

And even if it were the case that BoC could be blocked with a shield, it wouldn't mean that AC shouldn't apply to draconian breath.

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Post Friday, 24th January 2014, 19:51

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Siegurt wrote:What if Yellow got a defensive acid attack? (like Jellies)

That's a modest idea. You mean like 'spines' or 'minotaur retribution' or 'passive freeze'? While I appreciate those mutations, they present no tactical effect other than to incentivize taking damage. How about instead something that adds a tactical element to the breath weapon?

adozu wrote:Black draconians are awesome, air magic is really a good one to have and rElec saves lives (your life especially), they fly to boot. Yes, their breath is very random but it's also very powerful, that's kind of the thing with air magic really. Giving them a better breath might just make them too good?


Their breath weapon is random enough to be unusable. Again, except for the novelty of seeing the explosions, it is rarely the best use of a turn. Even as a last-ditch effort it fails to most other options. Their other bonuses are irrelevant because giving them a useful breath weapon would simply give them a useful breath weapon, which they were apparently intended to have anyway.

adozu wrote:Purple and white too... their breath might look underwhelming (for different reasons) but then again good resist/aptitudes really make up for it.


Their resists and aptitudes (white's are only situationally relevant and rarely relevant in the early game, I don't see how you can claim otherwise) are irrelevant to their underwhelming breath. The point is that their breath weapons have no tactical interest, and for damage I'd rather have some tomahawks.

adozu wrote:The one that's really unimpressive is yellow, no apt bonuses, a *very* situational resist (only really good in slime and zot? you'll probably have an amulet by then and even if you don't workarounds are possible) and a breath that just doesn't make up for it, i think this is the only one that needs more love, even the acidic bite isn't all that awesome. i think they would be ok if they had just *any* kind of extra apt, how about a +1 unarmed? with the "kit" they have it would make sense.


I agree that they are unimpressive, so how about giving them a breath weapon that provides some tactical opportunities. +1 unarmed would do nothing for them unless they were unarmed because UC only affects unarmed combat. I came up with +1 earth and +1 poison because acid seems earthy and toxic.

adozu wrote:The other one however i feel is a bit unloved lately would be grey: while it is one of those that are really good no matter what plan you had for them (well, unless it was getting tornado online asap) they just "feel" too similar to gargoyles lately imho and... somehow inferior, possibly because i only experienced pre-nerf gargoyles. a +1 to unarmed here might also be a good solution, it would make sense if a dragon species whitout a breath attack would develop a fiercer melee (or maybe a +1 fighting).


Grey draconians get no breath and do not need to breath. Sure, it can be disappointing, but it has a lot of advantages. I think you are incorrect about grey draconians having a balance issue so I do not see how they need an aptitude bonus. I do not think comparing gargoyles to the grey sub-species makes any sense.

But here is the bigger point: the draconian revisions of 0.8 (IIRC) did not (I'm sure) balance the colors by giving some of them useless breaths. All of the effort that went into the black breath did not expect for it to be almost always a bad idea. Similarly, purple and white do not have nearly useless breaths because of their other factors, and I think yellow just got left behind. Having boring breath does not make up for having good attributes or other good qualities.


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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 21:13

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Yeah, I'd agree that yellow draconians kinda need a buff. The acid spit as it is currently is kinda useless; it hits only 1 target, does low damage, and comes with a *chance* of reducing the enemy's AC. Some sort of aptitude bonus would also be nice (since literally every other color gets an aptitude bonus); poison seems fairly thematic for acid, but I dunno if that would step too much on green draconians' toes. The poison-and-something-else idea (a la pale draconians) that somebody put forth earlier would work, I think.

Apart from their breath weapon, I'm pretty okay with black draconians, but the breath weapon really does suck. It's just too random to rely on, and most of the times when you want to pull out your draconian's breath weapon is when you have something large and ugly coming to pound your face in and you want to kill it faster. Maybe it could be a bouncing bolt of lightning, something like a sorta-weaker Lightning Bolt? Or maybe it could be a spray of electricity a la Dazzling Spray (come to think of it, that might be a good idea for the yellow breath weapon, too). I just don't want to have the situation where "oh, look, you tried to breathe lightning on that hill giant but it all went in completely the opposite direction so you got clubbed to death".

I don't currently have many problems with purple draconians, but that antimagic cloud breath idea sounds pretty rad (though it *would* kinda suck in the Realm of Zot).
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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 21:26

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Player monster symmetry isn't a design goal afaik and enemy black/green Dr already have a different breath than player Dr, unless a change to make antimagic just -that- common is found to be desirable in zot I don't see any point in changing enemy purple Dr.
Also dispelling bolts are already pretty good and threatening so I don't think they need to work in a completely different way.

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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 19:15

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

spudwalt wrote:Yeah, I'd agree that yellow draconians kinda need a buff. The acid spit as it is currently is kinda useless; it hits only 1 target, does low damage, and comes with a *chance* of reducing the enemy's AC.

I will give the yellow draconian breath credit for this though: it has full (or nearly full, I just used it 280 times, but I already forgot whether it had full range or not ) range over LOS. So instead of the interface annoyance of white, as soon as you see a monster you can tap two keys and then proceed with combat. With white, it's tab-tab-a-f "damn, still not in range" - tab "never mind" tab-tab-tab.

spudwalt wrote:I don't currently have many problems with purple draconians, but that antimagic cloud breath idea sounds pretty rad (though it *would* kinda suck in the Realm of Zot).


I think it would be a fun challenge for Zot and increase the tactics of the monsters there. I think it would be better to have more differentiation between the monster draconians. It would really add some spice to Zot!

dck wrote:Player monster symmetry isn't a design goal afaik and enemy black/green Dr already have a different breath than player Dr,

I think this was changed in 0.8; before that they matched. Having poison cloud at XL=7 was very powerful. The player black draconian's lightning bolt was better than the current breath weapon.
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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 20:47

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Special anti-magic cloud; instead of damage, drains monster "MP" and somehow magically funnels it to the draconian.
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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 20:53

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

I agree with sanka that, if anything is to be done, removing yellow draconians would probably be the simplest thing. I say that mainly in light of the fact that corrosion via yellow draconians in Zot is annoying.

Some colors are less powerful but still, draconians are a very good species regardless of their hue. Even white draconians have a little something special going for them in that their rC negates cold-blooded slow effects. Yellow is the worst color for players in my opinion, but even yellow draconians are still a very good species overall so I don't think that's a big deal.

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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 22:39

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

and into wrote:I agree with sanka that, if anything is to be done, removing yellow draconians would probably be the simplest thing. I say that mainly in light of the fact that corrosion via yellow draconians in Zot is annoying.


I agree that would be simplest. I just don't see why quitting them permanently is a good solution. It seems like your premise is based on a separate point of contention: item destruction. I'm suggesting that just giving them a fun breath weapon will balance out the enjoyment of the species.

and into wrote: Even white draconians have a little something special going for them in that their rC negates cold-blooded slow effects.

You've actually played a draconian and thought to yourself, "I wish I was playing a white draconian right now?" I am surprised by that. The cold-blooded slow effect really doesn't come into play very much. Even in the early game, you just skip past ice beasts or deal with them at range. And when they do hit, the slow effect only lasts a few turns. YMMV, but I've found it irrelevant. I'm playing one right now and just walked back upstairs and killed my third ice beast in melee.

and into wrote:Some colors are less powerful but still, draconians are a very good species regardless of their hue. Yellow is the worst color for players in my opinion, but even yellow draconians are still a very good species overall so I don't think that's a big deal.


Hmm, we keep coming back to this point, and I understand that many feel that all of the colors of the species are strong. I'm not suggesting that they should all be equally powerful, or even powerful to the same degree with different flavor. I'm suggesting that they each have some flavor. Sure, a draconian can be played without a breath weapon and without the aptitude buff (that I argue should be consistent across the species). But, why? Why not have them all be interesting?

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 18:31

Redo Yellow Draconians

Tenaya wrote:I played a yellow draconian through to victory and made a decided effort to spit acid at everything {...} It was almost always better to do something else though.


adozu wrote:The one that's really unimpressive is yellow, no apt bonuses, a *very* situational resist {...} and a breath that just doesn't make up for it, i think this is the only one that needs more love


sanka wrote:I think that the best change would be to simply remove yellow draconians.


and into wrote:Yellow is the worst color for players in my opinion {...}


spudwalt wrote:Yeah, I'd agree that yellow draconians kinda need a buff.


Acid is transformative. Make Yellow the "transmuter-friendly" Draconian.

At worst: Spellcasting: 0, Transmutations +1 or +2, optionally Unarmed +1.
Consider that in most forms, their breath weapon becomes disabled.
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tasonir, TeshiAlair

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 18th March 2014, 21:12

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

I like the acid as transmuters idea, it does also fit well with their acidic bite ability, to encourage them to go melee. +1 ;)

Swamp Slogger

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Post Tuesday, 18th March 2014, 21:42

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

tasonir wrote:I like the acid as transmuters idea, it does also fit well with their acidic bite ability, to encourage them to go melee. +1 ;)


Just a comment: everyone realizes that auxiliary attacks are not affected by UC skill, correct?
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 18th March 2014, 21:45

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Spoiler: show
that is why Tasonir said "go melee" not "go UC".
Last edited by Hirsch I on Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 05:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 00:28

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Hirsch I wrote:that is why Tasonir said "go melee" not "go UC".


Okay, the phrasing just sounded suspect, so I wanted to make sure because having better UC and/or better TM would only assist with unarmed melee. Their acidic bite already provides an encouragement for them to go melee.
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Blades Runner

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 00:50

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Hirsch I wrote:that is why Tasonir said "go melee" not "go UC".


tasonir wrote:I like the acid as transmuters idea


This implies UC

(Not that transmuters need a reason to go UC. Transmuters should plan to go UC by default, on any species)
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 02:28

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Spoiler: show
this also implies melee. having a aux attack is good for anyone who is punching things.
Last edited by Hirsch I on Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 05:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Blades Runner

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 02:54

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Hirsch I wrote:this also implies melee. having a aux attack is good for anyone who is punching things.


UC always implies melee, but melee does not always imply UC

It's generally safe to assume that when someone mentions transmuters, they're talking about UC

So it's safe to assume that Tasonir was talking about UC, not melee in general
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 03:48

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Spoiler: show
Aux attacks are good for melee. UC is melee. ergo aux attacks are good for UC.
Last edited by Hirsch I on Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 05:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Blades Runner

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 04:06

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Yes, and that's what Tenaya was pointing out. Auxiliary attacks are good for melee in general, but Tasonir was implying that they somehow give transmuters an incentive to go melee (as if they didn't have one already), which would imply that auxiliary attacks are good for UC specifically.

But whatever, this is pretty off topic.

Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 04:47

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Just wanted to weigh in: my latest Dr:Tm run ended up being a yellow, and the acid spit is more effective than I remember. It's got full LOS range (something I don't think the other breath weapons have), and it actually softens up stuff like hill giants fairly well if you kite them so you can land a couple hits. Granted, that's still rather underwhelming compared to some of the other colors (red comes to mind), and since the acid spit is a single projectile, you can only ever hit one creature with it (assuming you don't miss completely). I'd say their breath weapon still deserves a buff, but at least it's not quite as horrible as I thought it was.

Yellows' aptitudes could definitely use a buff of some sort (+1 each in Transmutations and Poison seems fair).
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 05:11

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Spoiler: show
Laraso wrote:But whatever, this is pretty off topic.

I agree, and will put my posts on the matter is spoiler tags, to reduce background noise.
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dck

Vestibule Violator

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 07:51

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Acid spit was buffed recently.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 20th March 2014, 09:59

Re: Proposal: Draconian Revisions

Laraso wrote:Yes, and that's what Tenaya was pointing out. Auxiliary attacks are good for melee in general, but Tasonir was implying that they somehow give transmuters an incentive to go melee (as if they didn't have one already), which would imply that auxiliary attacks are good for UC specifically.

Well they are, in the sense that auxiliary attacks are really useful early on when your UC skill is still low and has crappy base damage (it's why Tm start with Beastly Appendage, after all). Of course that doesn't really apply to yellow draconian's acid bite since by level 14 you should have pretty good UC.
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