Insectoid species (with code)

[Marbit]

This post proposes a new race. I already have the code for this species and I have tested it a bit (it is a lot of fun!).
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7862

The species was developed from a suggestion by mumra on another post I made:

Metamorphosis: this could actually be a more interesting "hook" for an insect race but rather than an active ability it would be something that happens at pre-set XLs. Somewhat like Draconians/Demonspawn except the changes are more extreme when they happen, forcing you to adapt to drastically different circumstances.

As said, this would be an insect like race. As it advances in level it changes its attributes and forces the player to adapt. You slowly go towards one of six castes:

1) high Str, low Int
2) high Str, low Dex
3) high Dex, low Int
4) high Dex, low Str
5) high Int, low Dex
6) high Int, low Str

Right now the player knows which is going to be the low stat at level 3 and the good stat at level 6.
The mutation follows this progression:

lvl__stat1__stat2
3____NA_____-2
6____+4_____-4
9____+5_____-5
12___+6_____-6
15___+7_____-7
18___+8_____-8
21___+9_____-9
24___+10____-10
27___+11____-11

As with all aspects of this species the effect of the caste needs to be tuned to exert enough pressure to make things interesting but not so much that it would ruin characters. Beyond the main dynamic this species is in blank and many features and dynamics can be added to it. Right now the species is identical to a base human except for the caste system and that it has antenae. I think that it is easier to balance and develop a simple species than a complex one. I can always add new features latter.

I'm looking for feedback, testers and help. Tiles are also appreciated (zombie, corpse, monster version).
I'm open for suggestions, nothing in the species is set in stone. If you like the species you are welcomed to take the my code, test it, develop a branch, add or change any feature you want and tell me the results. If people are interested in the species I will keep developing it.

Edit: mistake corrected

[KittenInMyCerealz]

I fail to see how this would bring anything interesting to the table. Jiyva already does stuff like this doesnt he?
With gain & loss being equal, you'd just need to spend your stat points to your -stat to prevent yourself from going to ~0.
Which in most cases means that you'd end up having 2-5 starting stats re-allocated, nothing more. With a added bonus of ruining starting class choice in some cases, making you start again. (casters getting -int +str/dex)

I'f you'd try to negate this by giving the race good stat growth it would be pretty much like demigod, but with a god...

[Marbit]

I fail to see how this would bring anything interesting table. Jiyva already does stuff like this doesnt he?
With gain & loss being equal, you'd just need to spend your stat points to your -stat to prevent yourself from going to ~0.
Which in most cases means that you'd end up having 2-5 starting stats re-allocated, nothing more. With a added bonus of ruining starting class choice in some cases, making you start again. (casters getting -int +str/dex)

I'f you'd try to negate this by giving the race good stat growth it would be pretty much like demigod, but with a god...

Jiyva do reshufle your stats but it is a late game god that comes with its perks and always reshufle your stats according to your skills, equipment and spells. Jyva usually optimizes your character but don't force you to adapt. There are several ways in which you can deal with the dangerously low stat which include adding points to it, choosing items that give you a bonus on that stat, keeping the stat at low levels while keeping a ring of sustain abilities, join Cheibriados or Jyva or deal with the dead stat.

[dck]

Um, you don't just deal with the dead stat, statdeath was removed but the penalties for it are still overwhelmingly bad. Terribly slowed acting with then penalties like 80% failure for reading scrolls kind of bad.
Also generally having str under 5 makes the game unplayable due to every scroll you pick up overloading you, dex that low takes your evasion that should be good as what basically is a human and turns it into absolute crap and int is the only one that doesn't really matter if you get the decay for because it just means more training for spells (a lot more, but still) and it doesn't immediately cripple your character or make him absolutely unbearable like -dex and -str do.

[duvessa]

give this to djinni imo

[Eronarn]

Cleaned up suggestions from IRC, having tried to design a race like this a few times:

I'd suggest trying to make the race be interesting (and maybe even fun!) without touching stats at all. Apart from the balance considerations, I'll just point out that there is no race for which stats are the primary reason they're interesting. High Dg stats are the closest contender, but they take a backseat to not being able to take a god (and having to rely much more on starting books, stores, and so on). To some extent, this also applies to aptitudes. It's good to come in with an idea of where you want to end up, but tweaking stats and apts can be done once the race is in trunk (or even after it's in master). It's very difficult to do that with unique or weird mechanics.

Based on what works well for existing Crawl races, my suggestion is to give each caste one core build-changing effect. Consider something that correlates with whether a character is a spellcaster, but is not a direct non-magic/magic split. For example, the antimagic caste grows an antimagic-branded bite, and it has the same effect on max MP that wielding the weapon does. However, they now regain MP when their aux procs, fast enough to beat out other mana recovery sources. Being a pure caster as the antimagic caste would be hard, but a caster that evolves into one could wear/wield magical power, aim for summons, go hybrid with charms, or take Vehumet as a god. The magic imbued caste gets a blink shield; if they're about to make an armor roll against a melee attack, they might translocate a few tiles away instead (with a cooldown). This is great for many spellcasters, but it's often going to be an annoying trait for melee characters. However, EV melee might actually like it, and others could adapt by wearing stasis, learning shield skill so fewer attacks proc it, switching to polearms or ranged weapons, or picking up enough Tloc to learn telecontrol.

[Marbit]

I'm not convinced that giving (non cosmetic) mutations to castes is a good idea. It is a bit difficult to define what each caste is suppoused to do and I preffer to leave that decision to the player.

Still, giving existing mutations to a caste is relatively easy (just use the first patch and modiffy player.cc). So, why not just try it?
Perhaps you have some concrete mutations for each caste in mind?
I'd be glad to test the Eronarn branch of the insectoid project : )

[Sjohara]

I'm not certain that stats in Dungeon Crawl are interesting enough to make this race fun to play. You have a 1/3 chance of magic being a pain to break into, a 1/3 chance of inventory management being tedious, and a 50/50 chance of favoring light or heavy armor. Is a +Str/-Int insectoid anything more than a Hill Orc or Minotaur with worse aptitudes and less flavor? Is a -Str +Int insectoid anything more than a Deep Elf with bad aptitudes but better health? Is a +Str -Dex or -Str +Dex insectiod meaningfully distinct from a human in heavy or light armor respectively?

There aren't really any races in Crawl that are just humans with redistributed stats, and there's probably a good reason for that. Draconians and Demonspawn are randomized races which give both benefits that are more unique and penalties that result in fewer no-brainer decisions. You could easily make insectoids more fun by giving interesting mutations to each caste, but then they might become too similar to Draconians or Demonspawn. As it stands, I feel like you're almost guaranteed to get a more interesting character by choosing background first and then hitting the random button for race selection than you are by playing an insectoid.

[XuaXua]

I'm not certain that stats in Dungeon Crawl are interesting enough

That right there. That's the key.

[Marbit]

...As it stands, I feel like you're almost guaranteed to get a more interesting character by choosing background first and then hitting the random button for race selection than you are by playing an insectoid.

The difference is that it is this race evolves.
It is quite uncommon to start playing as a human wizzard and end up playing as a pure fighter with the strength of a troll.
Choosing a troll wizard won't allow you to play as an adept caster at the early levels and then switch strategies gradually.

I'm not saying that a troll can't be succesful as a wizard. I'm saying that races in crawl are, to a certain degree, rigid. Insectoids are very flexible in this aspect and I think they fill an interesting niche.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

they aren't flexible in any way
they force you to play some way, depending on the +/- you get
if i start a wizard/elementalist i want to play as a caster. after all, that is why i picked the class. getting the retarded -int would lead to me starting over. since im left with
a) bad starting stats&skills for melee &
b) no more int for my character, meaning i cant continue a caster. (or i could but i'd be a quite horrible one)
If i want to play a "hmm dunno let's let the game decide for me", I either select random species/class OR go Human and choose what path i want to follow with the loot i get.

The idea is just plain retarded in it's current form. (+ stats aren't interesting)

[Marbit]

they aren't flexible in any way
they force you to play some way, depending on the +/- you get
if i start a wizard/elementalist i want to play as a caster. after all, that is why i picked the class. getting the retarded -int would lead to me starting over. since im left with
a) bad starting stats&skills for melee &
b) no more int for my character, meaning i cant continue a caster. (or i could but i'd be a quite horrible one)

There are species that don't change. We also have have draconians and demonspaws where you don't know what you are going to get.
In those species you may get mutations that don't fit or plainly obstruct your current strategy and force you to change. Many people seem to enjoy those species and I certainly don't think that those mutations are "retarded" or that merit rage-quitting.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

they aren't flexible in any way
they force you to play some way, depending on the +/- you get
if i start a wizard/elementalist i want to play as a caster. after all, that is why i picked the class. getting the retarded -int would lead to me starting over. since im left with
a) bad starting stats&skills for melee &
b) no more int for my character, meaning i cant continue a caster. (or i could but i'd be a quite horrible one)

There are species that don't change. We also have have draconians and demonspaws where you don't know what you are going to get.
In those species you may get mutations that don't fit or plainly obstruct your current strategy and force you to change. Many people seem to enjoy those species and I certainly don't think that those mutations are "retarded" or that merit rage-quitting.

those races only get Bonuses when they level. this race stays the same statwise aka gets no bonus.

[Marbit]

those races only get Bonuses when they level. this race stays the same statwise aka gets no bonus.

I'm sorry, I'm not getting your point.
Humans also don't get a bonus statwise or mutationwise. I don't see anything bad with either humans or insectoids.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

those races only get Bonuses when they level. this race stays the same statwise aka gets no bonus.

I'm sorry, I'm not getting your point.
Humans also don't get a bonus statwise or mutationwise. I don't see anything bad with either humans or insectoids.

The mutations on Dr/Ds are additional bonuses they get when they level up, and mostly all of them are good.
The "mutation" these insectoids get isn't a bonus. It doesn't give you anything. whereas real mutations do always give you something.
4/6 of the times you'd want to play a spellcaster would be horrible and you'd rather start over, 1/6 would be preferable(+int -str), and 1/6 would be mehh (-str +dex)

[and into]

I think Sjohara makes some good points, Marbit. +10 or +11 is big enough that it would definitely be a meaningful difference, it just might not be an interesting difference.

All the same, one small thing I'd recommend just to make the species playable is that you should make the malus to stats a little less extreme, either by being smaller in magnitude and/or having a certain cap at how low they can get. Having 3 str might make me "adapt" in certain ways, but it will also mostly just make me want to quit the game because who wants to be burdened by carrying a decent weapon and a few potions? Making it so that your insectoid caste stat penalty can't take you below, say, 6 "base" int/str/dex would be reasonable (not including +stats from items, mutations, etc.)

It is good that the change happens somewhat gradually, giving the player time to plan and develop the character in a different direction, however it might also lead to somewhat scummy behavior, like when you used to discover that Ds was monstrous when getting first mutation... So that's also something to consider.

So maybe skip the lvl 3 change. Something like this might be better:

6____+4_____-2
9____+6_____-3
12___+7_____-4
15___+8_____-5
18___+9_____-6
21___+10____-7
24___+11____-8
27___+12____-9

* Your malus from this effect cannot decrease base str/dex/int below 6*

If you can adapt to it quickly, getting +4 at level 6 and then a total of +6 at level 9 is a pretty good bonus, while -2 or -3 is not so bad. You should learn what caste you are becoming at level 6 before you make a selection for the stat point you get to allocate, so if you'd like you could put every stat point from 6 onward into your malus-stat and you'll ultimately only come out to either -1 or -0 in it by end of game. Even starting as wizard or whatever and getting negative int, you could adapt without too much difficulty and turn things to your advantage, ultimately. With these changes the species would be a lot more playable, but also (potentially) a good deal more powerful, not sure that's the direction you'd want to go in.

[Marbit]

The effect that you suggest for mutations sounds good. I'll implement it.
I think that keeping a minimum bellow which the caste mutation won't reduce it sounds good.
Perhaps something on the line of the levels of the mutation (good and bad) that are activated are those that would reduce you to a minimum of 6.
Damm It seems I still have a lot of coding to do.

[Galefury]

I think having a minimum does not sound good. It means you probably don't want to try to counteract that stat malus by using your levelup stat gains on it, because if you just let it go down it will stop at 6 and you can put all your stats into something else.

[Sjohara]

...As it stands, I feel like you're almost guaranteed to get a more interesting character by choosing background first and then hitting the random button for race selection than you are by playing an insectoid.

The difference is that it is this race evolves.
It is quite uncommon to start playing as a human wizzard and end up playing as a pure fighter with the strength of a troll.
Choosing a troll wizard won't allow you to play as an adept caster at the early levels and then switch strategies gradually.

I'm not saying that a troll can't be succesful as a wizard. I'm saying that races in crawl are, to a certain degree, rigid. Insectoids are very flexible in this aspect and I think they fill an interesting niche.

Insectoids are incredibly rigid. You just aren't told which rigid race you got until level 3/6. Playing an insectoid optimally under the currently-proposed mechanics mostly involves stalling until level 3, finding out which of armor, dodging, and spellcasting is going to be useless, and then not using that skill (because those are the only three that rely on stats in a truly significant way, as far as I know). And the vast majority of players won't have invested points in either armor or dodging by that point anyway. Investing hard in magic skills after you know for a fact that those points are going to end up wasted for pretty much the entire midgame is just plain inefficient.

Draconians and Demonspawn will nudge you in random directions depending on how they develop, but they very rarely completely invalidate past choices or completely shut out future choices. Insectoids shut out choices almost exclusively.

[Igxfl]

I don't think unlucky stat changes would shut you down as badly as you might expect. By level 3, or even 6, you've only spent a small amount of XP, and probably in skills that will be useful regardless. An Insectoid Wizard who gets +Str -Int will still be able to cast great utility spells, pick up good armour, and just kill with a weapon rather than branching into high-level Conj. An Insectoid Assassin who gets +Int -Dex can pick up some books or Vehumet, and become a blaster who started with curare and a nice dagger. An Insectoid Fighter with -Str or Berserker with +Int could be pretty bad, but it's okay to have a few bad combos. Every other race does.

[Sandman25]

I suspect it could be optimal to start as warrior and train Weapon/Fighting until the caste is clarified. I did something like that with DrWz who trained Conjurations only before XL 7.

[Sjohara]

I don't think unlucky stat changes would shut you down as badly as you might expect.

I'm not saying it kills the character, I'm just saying it shuts down your options. If you lose the wrong stat relative to your start, it's pretty much a no-brainer to abandon that strategy immediately. You aren't really adapting so much as throwing out your build and switching to the one that your new stats demand.

I suspect it could be optimal to start as warrior and train Weapon/Fighting until the caste is clarified. I did something like that with DrWz who trained Conjurations only before XL 7.

I'd say the opposite. Getting -Str +Int and having no spellbook puts you in a pretty lousy position with no advantages, but getting +Str -Int as a caster with a strong early game gives you time to transition out before your casting is completely in the toilet (you're almost universally worse off than you would have been if you'd had the opportunity to plan around your race to begin with though, which is the whole problem). I'd probably either start as a strong early-game caster or go for something like an Assassin with a good early kit that doesn't influence your mid-term strategy very much. Of course, I consider Fighter to be a completely worthless background in general.

[Sandman25]

I'd say the opposite. Getting -Str +Int and having no spellbook puts you in a pretty lousy position with no advantages

Why? You can continue to stay fighter while you are looking for books. It's very unlikely you will get Str below 8-9 especially if you choose Str on levelups.

[and into]

I think having a minimum does not sound good. It means you probably don't want to try to counteract that stat malus by using your levelup stat gains on it, because if you just let it go down it will stop at 6 and you can put all your stats into something else.

You'd still have to adjust, in that having 6 strength means hardly any extra damage and that anything heavier than ring mail is pretty badly penalized, 6 int is bad for spell casting, and 6 dex is bad for dodging. On the other hand, having at least 6 strength means no inventory management torture, and some (but not a ridiculous level) of having a stat reduced to zero. Maybe the minimum should be lower (3?) to be a bit harsher, but if there weren't a minimum level then you'd often be 100% *forced* to put most, if not all, stat ups into whatever is getting a malus. I think that's less interesting. Six might be too high for the minimum though, yeah.

I'd say the opposite. Getting -Str +Int and having no spellbook puts you in a pretty lousy position with no advantages

Why? You can continue to stay fighter while you are looking for books. It's very unlikely you will get Str below 8-9 especially if you choose Str on levelups.

+Int only helps spells, which require a spell book or Vehumet to learn, period. So getting +Int on a Fighter would be pretty terrible, because it means either dex or strength is going to take a dive, and the boost you are getting to compensate does nothing for you. You have a weapon and armor, which strength helps, and you are much more likely to find heavier armor before finding a useful spell book or getting gifted good stuff from Veh.

+Dex would be awesome on every character that doesn't find CPM or GDA early (so nearly all of them), because all you need to do to capitalize on that as an advantage is hit m and toggle on dodging (maybe stealth a bit too if you want).

[Sjohara]

I'd say the opposite. Getting -Str +Int and having no spellbook puts you in a pretty lousy position with no advantages

Why? You can continue to stay fighter while you are looking for books. It's very unlikely you will get Str below 8-9 especially if you choose Str on levelups.

"Fighter on D4 with no good consumables" is a very weak position to be in regardless of stats, and you can very easily not find a useful low-to-mid level book until mid-Lair. The Fighter's starting equipment is both worse at protecting you from serious threats than magic or good consumables and the easiest kit to replace with random garbage off the dungeon floor (except the shield, which is practically a liability at low skill and should be tossed as soon as you find a two-hander anyway). I find Gladiator, Assassin, and even Artificer to all be stronger starts than Fighter regardless of what you want to do with your skills because they all start with actual panic buttons. A Wand of Enslavement is many times more likely to save your life than a shield and an Artificer will have the same armor and weapon as a Fighter by D2 or 3.

That doesn't really have a whole lot to with Insectoids in particular, although their lack of strong early bonuses does make the situation worse.

+Dex would be awesome on every character that doesn't find CPM or GDA early (so nearly all of them), because all you need to do to capitalize on that as an advantage is hit m and toggle on dodging (maybe stealth a bit too if you want).

I don't think I agree. Extra Dexterity certainly can't hurt in the long run, but it's a pretty poor early-game bonus because EV is so inconsistent. I mean, if a human has a 50% chance of being killed in melee by an ogre, and a +Dex Insectoid only has a 25% chance of being killed due to superior evasion...well, you still run. You don't roll the dice on a 25% chance to die for no reason. And even then taking that experience you dumped into dodging and putting it into a weapon skill would probably boost your survival odds by a lot more.

That kind of plays into why Fighters are bad again. If you engage something dangerous, you want to have a near-100% chance of either winning or escaping. A Fighter's armor will never give you that against anything bigger than a snake because you'll always be subject to a string of unlucky rolls that leave you stranded in melee range with no good consumables identified yet. Strength or Dexterity bonuses are the same way. A slight appeasement of the vengeful melee RNG is worth very little if you don't have a fallback, and early-game players probably won't have fallbacks unless their race or background gave it to them.

[crate]

except the shield, which is practically a liability at low skill

well yes if you think this is true then fi is bad

(I have no comment on the species, I wouldn't play it but that doesn't say much since I don't play anything but humans any more pretty much.)

[sanka]

I think having a minimum does not sound good. It means you probably don't want to try to counteract that stat malus by using your levelup stat gains on it, because if you just let it go down it will stop at 6 and you can put all your stats into something else.

You can make the minimum increasing with the stat points you put into the stat. (Should be also true for random stat upgrades, since otherwise an upgrade in a bad stat may mean that you do not get any point.) Of course you may lower the treshold from 6, but I think 6 would be fine.

Also, I'm not really convinced that reducing the usefulness of counteracting is that bad, since this would make the speciality of the race more pronounced.

[Sandman25]

When I said "stay fighter" I meant "stay warrior". Str-2 penalty hardly does anything on D4, the penalty for having low Str is really small with low base weapon, it is less than -1 enchantment of weapon.

(average bonus: -3.8% for every point below 9)
(average bonus: +2.6% for every point above 11)
http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Weapon_damage

[WalkerBoh]

The issue as I see it is that stats are what is used to differentiate some non-gimmick species from humans already. Several of these castes are essentially already other species:

+Str/(-Int or -Dex) = Troll or Ogre
+Int/-Str = Deep Elf
+Dex/-Str = Kobold

+Int/-Dex and +Dex/-Int are the only unique two, and for good reason as they do not combine very favorably. The others are just a human slowly turning into another species with human apts. I'm not sure that's enough for a species.

I like the idea of a species metamorphosizing into something, but it seems like Ds and Dr are filling that role already.

[Marbit]

Well, I kind of enjoy the discussion
At least it shows that it is not cut clear which strategy to take when you start with a certain background and get some castes.
I still wonder if decreasing or increasing the bonus/mallus or the effects of stats would make the species more interesting.

[WalkerBoh]

Would it be more interesting if your caste isn't totally random? What if at xl3, the stat you choose to boost is automatically picked as either your high or neutral stat?

Another more rigid option is there is no natural stat growth. Instead every time you up a stat (every three levels) it counts for double and one other stat is randomly lowered by 2. So if you choose int you get +2 Int and then either Dex or Str go down 2.

These options might make this char a little less aggravating, while still being interesting.