Proposal: guarantee 10-20 ?/! at Crypt end

[Baldu]

After I finished my game today I checked out my morgue and noticed I hadn't gone to crypt. Again. Looking through my recent morgues I don't think I've gone in a few months, last time being when I switched to a happy god and wanted some piety. Sooooo, thinking about why i do other rune-less branches, the only answer I could find is loot. I do blade every couple games if I havent found my big weapon of choice, and I do elf pretty regularly if I'm on a dude I feel is a bit too weak for greater challenges. Not wanting to add too much loot, I'm thinking if crypt had a guaranteed 10-20 scrolls/potions every game I would do it pretty often when I'm out of ?blink ?tele ?fog ?ID !cure !heal !speed or hoping for ?acquire. Eventually it might be nice to segregate the loot pits by types (elf could have 10-20 books/staves, slime could have 10-20 jewels, vaults could have 20-30 armors/weapons/evokables, tomb could have ~5 unique artifacts and ~10 random artifacts) but for now adding a little incentive to do crypt more often might be a good thing.

So, small proposal, guarantee 10-20 scrolls/potions at the end of crypt.

[BountyHunterSAx]

I disagree - maybe my needs are different from yours? But I find that I often clear crypt in hope for enough EXP to go up a level (between 18 and 23ish range usually) in addition to the guaranteed loot at the end giving me one of the endgame spells/items i really want (necromutation, summon dragon, firestorm, ice storm, crystal ball, staff of channel, etc.). The fact that there is a guaranteed loot deposit (like in slime, tomb, and elf) is already enough of a draw. For me anyway.

-AHMAD

[Galefury]

Crypt has a bunch of easy exp, a bunch of floor loot, and some loot at the end. Clearing crypt as soon as you find it is generally recommended.

[Baldu]

Really? As far as I know the loot is completely random, I've rarely left crypt with something I cared about (compared to elf where I almost always find at least 1 keeper), and while the xp is pretty easy to get there, I don't find crawl to be short on xp, neither for 3-5 runes or full 15 rune games.

edit: maybe its just me then, while i used to do it every game, I just don't see any reason to do it anymore unless i want some good piety.

[BountyHunterSAx]

It's not that exp is hard to come by, but that Crypt is a 'safe' branch for me. With the sole exception of Crypt:5 ancient liches and poor-positioned silent-spectres there's seldom anything that can threaten me there if I've already gotten comfy in the Vaults. So it's a 'safe' place to go up a level or so. And yes, the loot is random; but there is loot there. And loot means books, and books means spells. Elf is random also, as far as I know, as is Slime. But there's a bunch of treasure and neat artifacts - - statistically something there is gonna work for you. Same with crypt for me.

-AHMAD

[KoboldLord]

I propose a slight adjustment to crypt: get rid of fucking crypt. nobody likes it.

I agree with this proposal. The end vaults can stay as a Crypt portal vault at the same depth as wizlabs, though, probably moving the Zonguldrok wizlab over to the Crypt portal list because it fits better with that theme. Many of the Crypt 5 vaults are quite good, and it would be unfortunate to lose them, but they'd be better if you couldn't put them off until they were utterly trivial every time. Some of the smaller ones (e.g. Eye to Eye with the Devil) would also benefit from not having huge expanses of empty level to run and hide in whenever something dangerous starts chasing you, while the larger ones are still cheapened by stair-dancing.

In place of the xp and random loot that the player would miss out on because of the lack of Crypt, I would put nothing. There's room to trim the xp budget a little more, and there's currently no level in the game with less potential for interesting situations than Crypt 1-4.

[BountyHunterSAx]

I...like crypt a lot. In particular, it forces me to deal with silent spectres which, like Mennas, can be devastating.

If you want to make it more unique/lethal then why not add two unique monsters to it? All of a sudden you've got the non-zero chance of spawning a dangerous unique at a bad time. And while crypt is a nice safe place to gather EXP/loot, it's far from trivial what with the skeletal warrior packs and the looming threat of the undiggable corridors.

Another bit of flavor that might work well for it would be to make it a "poorly-lit" zone, which means that your vision/LOS is shrunk down 2-3 squares. Making it all the more dangerous and likely that you walk into a dangerous spot or get entrapped with minimal blinking room.

-AHMAD

[byrel]

While I confess that Crypt is dull, I'd rather something be done about hat rather than simply eliminate it. Crypt has awesome flavor.

Currently, there are a few interesting situations that occur in crypt:
Khufu. Dangerous but killable.
Tomb entrance. Mummy priests are a serious challenge.
Other unique spawns (Margery and Mennas have both given me fits there.

So one possible way to add challenge is to add a handful of higher level mummies outside of Tomb vaults. A mummy priest or two is likely to liven up any level. This does infringe a bit on Tomb, but I'm not sure it's too big a deal. Or maybe add some spectral nasties (dragons? draconians?)

Another way is, as bountyhunter said, to add a few uniques. A unique skeletal warrior maybe? Or a unique necromancer (who's slightly harder than Josephine;))?

To me, crypt is second only to Tomb in terms of ambiance. I really feel the spookiness of silent specters and skeletal warriors there. A change to make it darker (again, per Ahmad's post) would probably help with this, but sounds tough to balance.

[KoboldLord]

Uniques being interesting is hardly a feature unique to Crypt. Mennas and Boris and Mara can spawn in any old level once you're deep enough, and their synergy with the local monsters is less interesting in Crypt than anywhere else. There's very little you can do with an endless and featureless tide of zombies and skeletal warriors.

The handful of normal monsters that are interesting in Crypt can just be moved to the main Dungeon. Silent spectres are going to be more interesting in the company of a single centaur warrior than they are in the army of bland and boring zombies and skeletal warriors they're currently found with.

New uniques could hypothetically make Crypt more interesting, but they'd add to the main Dungeon just as much. Probably with less work. That way, we get the good parts of having an interesting unique without the bad parts of having four levels of zombies and skeletal warriors.

Reduced LOS is actually an advantage for most builds. Monsters that are outside LOS are helpless because they can't take action against you until they find you, but if you know where they are you can still kill them.

[BountyHunterSAx]

Crypt-unique ideas (made very casually, so deal with it!):

Named Unique, "Margruur" (i suck at coming up with names, sue me)
Is undead, with usual undead resists.
Flavor: Iliyuw's lover died, and went to the crypt. Horrible necrotic experiments were done (?by Ilsuyiuw?) to try and raise him from the dead. The results were an undead with a preternaturally high intelligence (ability to spellcast). For you see, the reason the spell <kinda> worked was that it drew from the love/passion of Ilsiuw's love. Ilsyiuw had eyes only for him, and Margruur will claim your eyes for himself!

Mechanics: He's roughly as 'tough' as your standard skeletal warrior in terms of hp/ac/ev.
"EyesForHimAlone" - He has the unique ability to reduce your vision to only the squares between you and him (ie: the smallest square/rectangle that will contain you both). That isn't to say, mind you, that you're mesmerized. You are ALLOWED to try to walk into the blackness behind you, but obviously that's dangerous if you don't know what's in there, etc. And you're not going to break this enchantment by just stepping away from him. I'm on the fence about whether or not breaking LOS should break the effect (I think not). Certainly killing him can break it, and if you can manage to get far enough away (say 5-6 squares?) that could do it too.

"Reanimate" - he can attempt to reanimate the undead. If you're in lichform, this will knock you out of it. If you're a mummy/vampire/ghoul/lichform, you will take damage as though you'd been hit by a dispel undead.




Non-uniques:
Name, Haunted Tree / Haunted Headstone
Flavor: We've already got several cool dead-tree areas and tombstone/gravestone doodads. This appears just like those except haunted!

Mechanics: Think ravenous-mimic level dangerousness/hp/defenses. Except higher AC for the headstones.
* Unique facets: Haunted trees should have 1d3 reach as opposed to only adjacent tiles. This will create a MUCH more creepy atmosphere since you're treating each tree like it could be dangerous even though most of them are harmless.


Trap: EldritchHorror?
If you step on this trap, an unspeakably terrifying eldritch horror appears in a square around you. You are "frozen in fear, unable to speak". Actual effect is to cast a silent-aura in a radius of 1d3 tiles, along with a 'Fear" effect as with an eidolon. Orange-statue level hp/ac/defenses. I like the idea of it being a good time for your caster to bust out ye-olde disintegration wand evocable. An item that at this point in the game is already seeing progressively less and less use.

-AHMAD

[BountyHunterSAx]

@KoboldLord:

But this would get rid of a cool undead branch on the flismy excuse that "it's just undead; they're easy to kill." We could nix the slime-pit for the same reason if we wanted to. "People only go there when they're ready for it, it's just a bunch of repetitve slimes that you blow to death and then take the treasure." Well, yes; and that's not incorrect or anything, but getting rid of the slime-pits just for this? Or reducing it to a 'sometimes randomly-occurring portal with a heavy slime-content'? That doesn't really help. And obviously some people really dig the whole slime-pit feel (much as I really dig the sensation of being in the Crypt).

Apart from that, the three things I just proposed are decidedly crypt-themed. They wouldn't fit in the main dungeon nearly as well.

-AHMAD

[byrel]

Really, all Crypt needs is a set of challenging, thematic monsters to go with the popcorn already there.
A couple suggestions (with numbers that are indubitably unrealistic, but hopefully communicate the niche I'm think of.):
Draugr (plural draugar)
Source: Norse Mythology; Strong, cruel, decaying undead vikings with the ability to swim through rock. Also frequently shapeshifting in legend.

Speed: 10
HP: ~100
Damage: 40
Spells: Pain, Agony
Size: Large
Special: Swims through rock (like rock worm.) Leaves trail of miasma like rotting ghoul?

Think of him as Gastronok, but fast as a person, able to swim through walls, and with necromantic spells instead of spammals.

Jiangshi
Source: Chinese Mythology; Undead hopping draining corpses. A vampire parallel.

Speed: 10
HP: ~80
Damage: 40(vampiric)
Size: Normal
Special: none

Simply tough and vampiric. A very nasty melee vampire, or leech, basically.

The idea is to fill the role that Hell Sentinels, death yaks, and hydras fill; making a branch with popcorn of varying difficulties also have near-death experiences.

I particularly like the Draugar. In Crypt, with all the one-wide passages, they could be truly nasty.

[byrel]

"EyesForHimAlone" - He has the unique ability to reduce your vision to only the squares between you and him (ie: the smallest square/rectangle that will contain you both). That isn't to say, mind you, that you're mesmerized. You are ALLOWED to try to walk into the blackness behind you, but obviously that's dangerous if you don't know what's in there, etc. And you're not going to break this enchantment by just stepping away from him. I'm on the fence about whether or not breaking LOS should break the effect (I think not). Certainly killing him can break it, and if you can manage to get far enough away (say 5-6 squares?) that could do it too.

Ouch. winces. That would definitely be an encounter to take seriously. Another possibility would be to make this a squishier non-unique with this ability. I'm not sure which I'd like/hate more.

"Reanimate" - he can attempt to reanimate the undead. If you're in lichform, this will knock you out of it. If you're a mummy/vampire/ghoul/lichform, you will take damage as though you'd been hit by a dispel undead.

Clearly a unique-level ability. And properly nasty.

Non-uniques:
Name, Haunted Tree / Haunted Headstone
Flavor: We've already got several cool dead-tree areas and tombstone/gravestone doodads. This appears just like those except haunted!

Mechanics: Think ravenous-mimic level dangerousness/hp/defenses. Except higher AC for the headstones.
* Unique facets: Haunted trees should have 1d3 reach as opposed to only adjacent tiles. This will create a MUCH more creepy atmosphere since you're treating each tree like it could be dangerous even though most of them are harmless.

This could also be used in some Crypt ends to good effect.

I'm a bit less fond of the trap, as it's pretty much a nobrainer. It's like the crystal statues; if you've found disintegration, they're trivial. If not, they're impossible. Not the best, I don't think.

Edit: Oops; sorry for the double post.

[BountyHunterSAx]

The reason I liked the it as a trap is that you always have the option of just walking away from it - indeed, walking away from it is the simplest thing to do. Further, if you're a melee champ you just hit the damn thing with your weapon. It's not as though it's confusing you or preventing you from attacking in any way. But if you're a caster, then having it 'sprung' on you (ala a trap) works because you must back away from it first and then attack it, so while it generally would be about as harmless as your generic poison-cloud trap (for example), it has the potential of catching you at a really bad time. If you went into crypt without being prepared to work under the conditions of silence, then bad things can happen.


As to LOS being a buff; correct me if I'm wrong, but don't monsters outside your LOS hear noise from spellcasting/fighting/yelling and then come? In such a situation NOT knowing what's coming for you, where it's coming from, or how to escape/retreat from it properly would creep me out. And that's what Crypt is supposed to be - a creepy place swarming with undead.

-AHMAD

PS:Loving the Draugr idea.especially miasma trail!

[byrel]

I tend to rejoice when I get Nightstalker on any demonspawn. It makes it much easier to pull one monster and kill it, and all monsters will show up in range of practically all my conjurations (LCS ancient liches as soon as they hove into view.) The one style where I think it might be a big nerf is new-summoning, as LOS (and hence effective summons range) just got a lot smaller. I haven't tried, as I've been avoiding summons since I got my 15-runer with them. I almost rage-quit it a few times out of shear boredom.

It is true that noise carries outside LOS, but 'normal' activity is pretty quiet. Even a shout is only heard 12 squares away. Now if you're firestorming/shattering crypt, I agree it probably will hurt you more than help. But if you're firestorming crypt, you don't NEED help.

So for the trap the statue appears next to you? I assumed it appeared in LOS, making fear a lot more relevant. And making a melee character resist fear to reach you to pound. Otherwise, I don't really get how fear is going to be relevant; a melee character stands and pounds, a conjurer backs up and casts. Or really, they both probably reach for a /disintegration by this stage of the game, unless these traps are rather common. (I could see these being used on ancient liches by melee characters though...)

[Davion Fuxa]

Thinking about it what minmay said, why not just remove Vaults, The Hall of Blades, Crypt, and Tomb. All of these branches have some troublesome aspect about them outside of what KoboldLord posted for Crypt, and even with Vaults become reduced from 8 to 5 levels it isn't like Vaults troublesome aspects aren't still there (we just have to endure 3 less levels).

I'm not being sarcastic here either, the option of simply designing a whole new Branch with Sub-branches might be a better idea then trying to rework any of the current Post-Lair Branch - and it doesn't have to be a new Vaults either. Like making a Ruined City Branch, or perhaps an idea of a Living Quarters Branch; with Sub-branches for an Armory, Mass Burial Grounds, and the Ancient Vault. Or perhaps keep the Vault idea but add in Sub-branches like The Barracks, the Founder's Resting Place, and The Founder's Vault.

[nordetsa]

People hate Crypt so much? I find crypt a nice place to farm up TSO piety.

[byrel]

I find crypt a nice place to farm up TSO piety.

This is the problem. Crypt (particularly 1-4) currently is nothing more than a well-themed grinding expedition. Yes, you can farm Exp, TSO Piety, etc. And it perfectly fits the definition of one of the things crawl avoids: minimal risk, time-consuming, producing benefit = grinding.

That's why a lot of people don't like it. I think the theme should be salvaged, and simply have the challenge level increased to keep it from being the safe branch it is now.

[BountyHunterSAx]

@Davion Fuxa:

I..I'm sorry - minmay said "get rid of fucking crypt, nobody likes it." How is that at all connected to the sarcastic-sounding suggestions you're making? Are you saying nobody likes Vaults? That nobody likes tomb/hell/pan (all the post-lair branches)? Nobody likes the Abyss? I can tell you honestly that I like Vaults a lot. I really liked the 8-floor Vaults, and i liked the layout of the 5-floor variation (though I still wish there were more open spaces as now it's JUST those boxen-shapes). I like crypt, tomb, ... i can't see any compelling reason or argument that either you or minmay have put forward and but for the fact that you were both obviously esteemed board members I'd assume you were trolls with these kinds of posts.

Yes, there's issues with currently existing branches -- but that's because they EXIST! Hell, there's issues with pre-Lair branches also! But you don't see people in a hurry to axe all of those on the basis of "they aren't perfect". And that's about the closest to an argument I'm seeing in your post.

Anyway, sorry for the derail.

-AHMAD

[Davion Fuxa]

One thing the Temple, The Lair, The Lair's Sub-branches, the Orcish Mines, and the Elven Halls all have in common is that they all have a decent mix of Interesting Monster Variety, Thematic Value, and Complex Decision Making when you play in them. Note I wasn't referring to Hell, Abyss, or Pandemonium either, but they also have Interesting Monster Variety, Thematic Value, and Complex Decision Making involved when playing them to some extent.

Vaults, The Hall of Blades, Crypt, and Tomb all come off lacking in one or two of the above departments in some way, shape, or form; in varying degrees. For Vaults it lacks any difference in Monster Variety from the Main Dungeon (Vault Guards being the one exception), Thematic Value of any real sort, and Decision Making you bound to come up with in Vaults comes off just the same in the Main Dungeon. The Hall of Blades is pretty well a simple decision of going in to check for a Better Weapon or skipping - not exactly a very Complex Decision, Crypt is pretty well just something to travel through to Crypt:5 or the entrance to Tomb, and in Tomb if you fight every monster on the way to the loot and Golden Rune it comes off that almost every encounter is handled the same way - or you may just skip fighting the monsters and go the route of ninja-ing the rune.

Instead of trying to salvage these branches, maybe completely redesigning them from scratch in how they work might be a better idea. I mean The Hive was removed before, so maybe it is time to give up the ghost on these set of branches as well.

[KoboldLord]

For Vaults it lacks any difference in Monster Variety from the Main Dungeon (Vault Guards being the one exception), Thematic Value of any real sort, and Decision Making you bound to come up with in Vaults comes off just the same in the Main Dungeon.

Stop that. You're equivocating. Vaults having the same monster variety as the Dungeon is not the same thing as Crypt having a homogeneous mass of slow and non-threatening melee brutes. Removing zombies and skeletal warriors from generation in D would not make Crypt one particulate better, and it doesn't matter if V and D share a monster set as long as that monster set is interesting. Granted, perhaps the game can't support 20-some levels of that monster set, but it doesn't matter whether the levels that do exist with that set happen in D or V.

Vaults is a problem of too much of a good thing, while Crypt is simply a bad thing.

Even if there are too many deep D&V levels in the game, it makes more sense to reduce D from the sacred 27 than it does to eliminate V entirely. V now has a distinct level generation scheme that makes these same monsters work differently. The new V isn't perfect yet, but it's already looking pretty good.

The Hall of Blades is pretty well a simple decision of going in to check for a Better Weapon or skipping - not exactly a very Complex Decision,

Blade is more of a noob trap, actually. If you needed the weapons that dropped there, you wouldn't have survived to reach it, much less managed to clear it. If you're weak, draining and distortion weapons are likely to leave you worse off than you started, while if you're strong, you can certainly get a better return of xp and loot to turns and real-time if you go literally anywhere else in the game.

Blade could easily be dropped, because it's barely a legitimate part of the game in the first place.

Crypt is pretty well just something to travel through to Crypt:5 or the entrance to Tomb,

Crypt is much worse than that, because it also gives the player a ridiculous amount of xp for the risk involved. The monsters there are densely packed xp capsules, and if the player doesn't tediously hunt down every boring monster in there the character will be noticeably weaker for the parts of the game that are actually interesting. Optimal play is generally to go be bored for four large levels of slow nothing-but-melee. Without Crypt in the game, there'd be room in the xp budget for two or three interesting wizlabs in every game! Even with just the wizlabs and Crypt 5 vaults we already have, how could that not be better?

[byrel]

Crypt is much worse than that, because it also gives the player a ridiculous amount of xp for the risk involved. The monsters there are densely packed xp capsules, and if the player doesn't tediously hunt down every boring monster in there the character will be noticeably weaker for the parts of the game that are actually interesting. Optimal play is generally to go be bored for four large levels of slow nothing-but-melee. Without Crypt in the game, there'd be room in the xp budget for two or three interesting wizlabs in every game! Even with just the wizlabs and Crypt 5 vaults we already have, how could that not be better?

Perhaps it would be better than what we have now. But the Crypt is a very vivid experience, with a unique flavor. While I'm all for improving it, I think it could be done by introducing serious challenges to the Crypt, rather than simply abolishing it in favor of Wizlabs. I don't mind Wizlabs, but none of the one's I've been in (five or so) have caught my imagination like Crypt, except the cloud one. Why not preserve that excellent undead flavor by adding serious threats? And the problem isn't that it's practically all melee. Lair is practically all melee, and tough enough. The problem is it's unchallenging, uninteresting melee.

[Jeremiah]

Could you put more spellcasting monsters in Crypt that are immune to Silence, so that silent spectres would be more of a threat? Even giving some skeletal warriors crossbows would turn them into a ranged threat rather than purely melee, which could make them pretty dangerous in combination with a silent spectre.

[Lasty]

"EyesForHimAlone" - He has the unique ability to reduce your vision to only the squares between you and him (ie: the smallest square/rectangle that will contain you both). That isn't to say, mind you, that you're mesmerized. You are ALLOWED to try to walk into the blackness behind you, but obviously that's dangerous if you don't know what's in there, etc. And you're not going to break this enchantment by just stepping away from him. I'm on the fence about whether or not breaking LOS should break the effect (I think not). Certainly killing him can break it, and if you can manage to get far enough away (say 5-6 squares?) that could do it too.

One thing that comes up pretty often in this forum is the ability to have asymmetrical vision. Right now, "eyes for him alone" would mean that you usually don't have to worry about other monsters while this guy exists, because they can't act when you can't see them.

There is a lot of interesting design space around allowing monsters to act outside of player vision, but it would be a fairly major change. Are any devs currently thinking about this as an option?

As far as Crypt goes, how about some rule-breaking? In the rest of the game, standard undead are boring because they're slow, dumb and melee-only. What if the Crypt has different rules: all undead, even standard zombies/skeletons, can break the rules, including some but not all of the following:

* Undead can submerge in the ground.
* Undead move faster.
* Undead can move through walls.
* Undead intelligence is increased.
* Undead can't be destroyed -- they drop a corpse-like object that can't be eaten or mutilated ("the corpse heals as fast as you chop it!"), and after a certain amount of time it re-animates. It gives less/no experience if re-killed.
* Undead can't be seen until they are within 3 tiles, regardless of see invis.
* Undead have howling ability like starcursed masses.
* Undead know where you are at all times (they can sense life!).
* Undead can throw parts of themselves, dealing self-damage but also large player damage.
* Undead split when injured (You chop off the ogre zombie's arm. It moves with a life of its own!)
* Players don't heal in Crypt (or heal slowly).

[mumra]

* Undead can submerge in the ground.
* Undead move faster.
* Undead can move through walls.

I had an idea for a series of graveyard vaults featuring Lua-scripted zombies rising up out of the ground. It could be fun if this was more normal behaviour for undead (although submerging again would just be annoying).

There could be some sort of "grasping hands" trap or spell that held / slowed / constricted the player.

I don't too much like the idea of changing the mechanics of well-known monsters just within this branch; it's probably explainable but it's a strange and non-obvious jump of logic. However, generally changing the mechanics of undead throughout the game could make them generally more interesting. I think allowing certain ghosts and incorporeal entities to move through walls has merit. Maybe crypt could feature some special hardcore types of zombie that don't crop up elsewhere - the howling / fast moving ones etc.

[Jeremiah]

I've always wondered why Crawl doesn't have monsters that can move through walls (without destroying them.) For one thing, it would make fighting in corridors less attractive if they could hit you from within the wall but you could not damage them in return.

[Lasty]

* Undead can submerge in the ground.

I don't too much like the idea of changing the mechanics of well-known monsters just within this branch; it's probably explainable but it's a strange and non-obvious jump of logic.

For submerging undead, we could create a new type of floor tile, "grave dirt". All undead could submerge in it, and all floors in Crypt would be replaced with it. Vaults outside of Crypt could also use it.

[BlackSheep]

Submerge is not a popular mechanic. Basing an entire branch around it would be inadvisable.

[Lasty]

Submerge is not a popular mechanic. Basing an entire branch around it would be inadvisable.

It's not popular because of the land/water dichotomy. Players want to be on land and are penalized in water. Submerging monsters want to be in water and cannot go on land. Because of that, the water effectively becomes an irritating trap. Because grave dirt is equally as traversable by the undead and the player, it stops being a trap, and instead becomes a way for undead to make up for their fundamental weaknesses (lack of speed, lack of ranged attacks).

That said, the rules for submerging behavior might have to be tweaked a little for undead -- it would probably be undesirable for them to submerge instantly when the player leaves melee range. Perhaps they would submerge only when out of player LOS. Other improvements might be to only unsubmerge when there's at least one other undead within player LOS (or even only when they have the player flanked), and/or to make them undetectable when submerged (as opposed to "a disturbance" in the water).

In any case, I'm not wedded to the submerging idea, if it turns out to be bad.

[Davion Fuxa]

It sort of sounds like you want to make the Crypt like an area full of Trapdoor Spiders with the submerge tactic.

[Mankeli]

It's not popular because of the land/water dichotomy.

Unless submerging has been drastically altered from 0.10, this has very little to do with the annoyance of submerging monster (at least for me).

[mumra]

The annoying thing about submerging is that once a monster does it, it a) is no longer a threat and b) cannot be killed. Functionally this is identical to not existing; it's not an interesting behaviour.

However the idea that zombies could start out initially submerged, and rise up from the ground around the player as a sort of ambush, but without the ability to re-submerge, seems a little more promising to me.

[galehar]

However the idea that zombies could start out initially submerged, and rise up from the ground around the player as a sort of ambush, but without the ability to re-submerge, seems a little more promising to me.

That's exactly the behaviour of trapdoor spider, and it would fit zombies quite well, both in flavour and gameplay. However, it wouldn't be enough to make crypt interesting, and it would be quite annoying if overdone. To distinguish from trapdoor spiders, I'd make zombie bands which rise from the ground all at once. Ideally when they surround you, but it might be tricky to set up and trigger properly.

[KoboldLord]

To get that sort of effect, the best bet would probably be to loot the Hell Effects code. In Tartarus, the undead swarms always arrange themselves around you in exactly the way I think you're talking about, often at very inconvenient times. Placing the undead on the spot like that would be better than putting them in a predetermined location hoping the player wanders into the right spot. Either the player can use spoilers to find/avoid the undead, or the player has to step on every tile to get them all out of the way.

[Jeremiah]

Could you have a coffin or grave as a terrain feature, and when you open (step on) it, you could either find some loot, or the inhabitants animate and attack you, potentially surrounding you as above.

It wouldn't have to be just zombies, you could also have vampires and all kinds of ghostly undead. Obviously having it as a visible feature would allow the player to prepare by buffing/summoning etc before going to the coffin - but then if monsters might appear around you without warning, they will probably have any available buffs activated permanently.

[mumra]

However the idea that zombies could start out initially submerged, and rise up from the ground around the player as a sort of ambush, but without the ability to re-submerge, seems a little more promising to me.

That's exactly the behaviour of trapdoor spider, and it would fit zombies quite well, both in flavour and gameplay. However, it wouldn't be enough to make crypt interesting, and it would be quite annoying if overdone. To distinguish from trapdoor spiders, I'd make zombie bands which rise from the ground all at once. Ideally when they surround you, but it might be tricky to set up and trigger properly.

This is the sort of thing I was thinking. Perhaps once some trigger is hit, the zombie band will appear over the course of 3-4 turns rather than all instantaneously. This can easily be achieved with Lua vaults as an experiment to see how it works.

I had an idea for a series of graveyard vaults featuring Lua-scripted zombies rising up out of the ground.

Could you have a coffin or grave as a terrain feature, and when you open (step on) it, you could either find some loot, or the inhabitants animate and attack you, potentially surrounding you as above.

... Yes. Actually there is already a gravestone tile which is used for a few vaults. I think the effect should work on a proximity trigger rather than stepping on a specific tile though.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Zombies and skeletons in Crypt should be different from regular ones. Pretending to be bands of trap door spiders, zombies that pretend to be bands of jumping spiders, zombies that retain abilities they normally lose while undead (hydra head regeneration, dragon breath, etc.), sometimes reanimating, shrieking upon spotting the player, moving above normal speed (ye olde standard "sprinter" zombie), and, most importantly, ditching all the crappy reverse-OOD zombies. There's no reason why you should be waylaid by packs of rat, bat, and kobold zombies in Crypt. They were weak on D1, they're definitely weak in Crypt.

The earlier suggested "patches of darkness" could perhaps work with patches of umbra that Profane Servitors give off. Heck, maybe they can even spawn in Crypt sometimes?

There could also be bands of severed body parts that behave like a cross between slime creatures and hydras "can merge and unmerge, hitting them kills parts of the merged mob".

What about severed, animated hands that can pick up and throw Cursed Skulls at the player, treating them similar to a boulder beetle/orb of destruction while it's enroute? Except one that can still summon stuff and torment you WHILE it's en route. Unless they can also throw other stuff at the player, they probably should only spawn around Cursed Skulls.

What about vampires that do something other than turn invisible and then proceed to spam rats and bolts of draining?

[Davion Fuxa]

Zombies and skeletons in Crypt should be different from regular ones. Pretending to be bands of trap door spiders, zombies that pretend to be bands of jumping spiders, zombies that retain abilities they normally lose while undead (hydra head regeneration, dragon breath, etc.), sometimes reanimating, shrieking upon spotting the player, moving above normal speed (ye olde standard "sprinter" zombie), and, most importantly, ditching all the crappy reverse-OOD zombies. There's no reason why you should be waylaid by packs of rat, bat, and kobold zombies in Crypt. They were weak on D1, they're definitely weak in Crypt.

Let's not make the branch a complete spoof of Left 4 Dead, but having some of those features are okay and would work well. The Undead found in the Crypt should also more or less act like the Undead found out of the Crypt to avoid confusion for players - so Undead Hydra's should probably not regenerate heads. Outside of that, creating a few new Undead enemies is fine, as is having universal Crypt Abilities to make the Undead in the Crypt more challenging. As for suggestions to a couple of things:

Having all Undead zombies and skeletons move at the same speed that they did in life might be a good universal Crypt feature that shouldn't throw players off their game too much
Maybe raise the level of intelligence in the Crypt for Undead -'Ghoulish' for example, which lets them pick up, equip things, quaff potions, zap wands - albeit, with negative hit modifers except when unarmed
I'd think having Lich spawns as a common monster in the Crypt would certainly bring some powerful enemy spells to the place - at least on par with Swamp Dragon spawns in the Swamp
Maybe introduce Ghoul Mages as a sort of weak spellcaster mob for the Crypt, giving them a lighter spell portfolio then the Lich stuff you shouldn't scoff at either
Shrieking Undead might be a good fit for the introduction of the Banshee - and maybe make it large and in 'charge' - make it a spellcaster that is capable of zapping Bolt of Lightning

[EvilAshe]

To distinguish from trapdoor spiders, I'd make zombie bands which rise from the ground all at once. Ideally when they surround you, but it might be tricky to set up and trigger properly.

Could a high enough Trap skill let you spot the trigger? Give a real reason to raise it higher than ~10.

[njvack]

Could a high enough Trap skill let you spot the trigger? Give a real reason to raise it higher than ~10.

This would not, by a long shot, be that reason.

[dpeg]

I like the idea of hell-style zombie/skeleton encirclements. And it is true that lowly zombies should have no place in Crypt.

Other ideas in this thread are reasonable as well but the above two will help a lot, for rather little work, imo.

[Psieye]

I like the idea of hell-style zombie/skeleton encirclements. And it is true that lowly zombies should have no place in Crypt.

Other ideas in this thread are reasonable as well but the above two will help a lot, for rather little work, imo.

I agree this helps both the tactical experience and the flavour of Crypt, but I have the slight nagging feeling that it'd put more overlap with Tartarus. There would also be the issue of how the EXP budget would be affected by Crypt's new hell-style reinforcements. Would these 'ambush parties' all be durably summoned so they don't encourage players to camp in Crypt?

[dpeg]

psieye: You can simply repool the xp: in the hypothetical, most drastic version, non-end Crypt levels have no monsters pre-placed whatsoever and instead monsters are permanently summoned around you. If the xp pool is used up, no more summons.

[BountyHunterSAx]

For a crypt, invisible enemies (ie: ghosts anyone) are awfully rare. In fact, I can't think of any off the top of my head. Is the lycrorpropa (sp?) considered a demon or could it make an appearance here?

-AHMAD

[BlackSheep]

Lorocyproca... it's a demon.

Along the lines of ghosts, though, what about increasing the appearance of player ghosts in Crypt?

[Psieye]

psieye: You can simply repool the xp: in the hypothetical, most drastic version, non-end Crypt levels have no monsters pre-placed whatsoever and instead monsters are permanently summoned around you. If the xp pool is used up, no more summons.

Demand all corridors to be at least 2-wide in Crypt and this mechanic would make the place worthy. I'll admit, I was in favour of just axing Crypt until this ambush proposal came along.

For a crypt, invisible enemies (ie: ghosts anyone) are awfully rare. In fact, I can't think of any off the top of my head. Is the lycrorpropa (sp?) considered a demon or could it make an appearance here?

-AHMAD

Lorocyproca is a demon. As is the Reaper which would also be appropriate, except we'd be turning Crypt more and more into Tartarus.

Lorocyproca... it's a demon.

Along the lines of ghosts, though, what about increasing the appearance of player ghosts in Crypt?

Hmm, I prefer the whole "player ghosts will only show up where players died" instead of forcing them to randomly re-locate to Crypt. I don't think many people die in Crypt. But what if we did a pan-lord style thing to make 'pseudo player ghosts' instead?

[mumra]

psieye: You can simply repool the xp: in the hypothetical, most drastic version, non-end Crypt levels have no monsters pre-placed whatsoever and instead monsters are permanently summoned around you. If the xp pool is used up, no more summons.

Demand all corridors to be at least 2-wide in Crypt and this mechanic would make the place worthy. I'll admit, I was in favour of just axing Crypt until this ambush proposal came along.

I was planning some new layout code for Crypt that could actually enforce this.