The Abyss: Inception

[brendan]

Inception has been merged into trunk and should be available on cszo and cdo.

What's changed?

• Five floors of the abyss, accessible via the abyssal stair. The rune appears between A:3 and A:5. Monsters spawn faster the deeper you go.
• A zoo of abyss monsters: wretched stars, starcursed masses, lurking horrors, ancient zymes, apocalypse crabs, spatial maelstroms and more!
• New layouts (more to come!)
• Slower morphing
• Performance improvements to be nicer to the servers.

Kindly file bugs on Mantis.
Be the first player to die to all of the new abyss mobs!

[Grimm]

This sounds dope as all hell.

Might have to switch the silver star's quote to the wretched star. It's a stanza from Joyce's "Bahnhofstrasse".

[ebarrett]

Inception abyss

Joyce

Relevant: http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=32

[cerebovssquire]

jesus christ don't remind me

[Jabberwocky]

Is there a hydrataur in the Abyssal Stairs?

[brendan]

hydrataur

The hydrataur defends the stairs to Abyss:27. Good luck.

[nicolae]

The offline trunk downloads don't have it yet... noooo, curse my hubris

[njvack]

This sounds awesome! I played trunk Abyss a few days ago; the new monster set is great -- I'm happy to see Abyss get its own monster set. Starcursed masses I like in particular. No problem unless you let them get out of hand, when they become a Problem.

Do portals out become more common in deeper levels, too?

This change seems like it might have fun implications for Lucy's Corruption, too?

[brendan]

Do portals out become more common in deeper levels, too?

At the moment, no. Abyss exits become very common after grabbing the rune.

This change seems like it might have fun implications for Lucy's Corruption, too?

Correct

[hathegkla]

abyssal stair

What's next? Doornado?

The rune appears between A:3 and A:5.

Clarification: Does this mean that I can head to any of A:3, 4, or 5 and wander until the rune pops up? Or does this mean the rune will pick only one of those floors to randomly spawn on?

[njvack]

Relevant: http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=32

A quick googling and that horrified expression is now mirrored in my own.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUGHgghhhh let the starcursed masses scream me to sleep now

[Grimm]

highhearted youth comes not again

[BountyHunterSAx]

I would like to recommend that A:1 be a little easier to escape from, since we now have an A:2-5, and death by being abyss'd early is one of my biggest frustrations with the game.

That said, I don't play trunk and have no idea what he new abyss is like, so real recommendations will not come from this corner.

-AHMAD

[yogaFLAME]

I would like to recommend that A:1 be a little easier to escape from, since we now have an A:2-5

How are those things related?

[BountyHunterSAx]

Simple. If you make the Abyss easier to escape, then that means it's easier for EVERYONE to escape. Including characters that intentionally entered it to go rune-hunting, and characters that got banished there far before their time through virtually no fault of their own when they were wholly unprepared for it.

So you've got to pick a point to balance the Abyss for and just hope you don't screw to many people over with it.



But now we have a choice! Abyss:1 is more escapable/survivable for accidental entrants who stumbled in their unhappily. We can nerf the difficulty of A:1 in terms of escape, monster generation frequency, power level, etc and punt that level of challenge to A:2. A:3-5 can be much much harder, as only the adventurers brave enough to dare attempt it will go there.
Conversely, you could nerf the rewards of Abyss:1, limiting it to food, the occasional potion of heal/heal wounds and scroll of remove curse/identify; but that's it. Rather than its current state where you can find anything there. So, again, incentivize A:2-5 for people who want to be there and make A:1 more survivable for those that got forced their by an early Erolcha.

-AHMAD

[Jabberwocky]

Though that early-banishing is generally from poor tactics, which is completely their fault.

[yogaFLAME]

It kind of depends on if A:1 is more/less dangerous than oldabyss, no? If less, then you've already got your wish.

[Kate]

A fundamental assumption of the changes were that A:1 should be no easier to escape than the old Abyss, and should certainly not have weaker monsters. Characters banished at low experience levels will now, however, have the option of diving and finding more exits (once that change is implemented, it's not in yet), with the trade-off of there also being more monsters.

Clarification: Does this mean that I can head to any of A:3, 4, or 5 and wander until the rune pops up? Or does this mean the rune will pick only one of those floors to randomly spawn on?

It can spawn on any of those levels (and is least common on A:3, and most common on A:5).

[nicolae]

A fundamental assumption of the changes were that A:1 should be no easier to escape than the old Abyss, and should certainly not have weaker monsters. Characters banished at low experience levels will now, however, have the option of diving and finding more exits (once that change is implemented, it's not in yet), with the trade-off of there also being more monsters.

I saw an early commit mentioning that the Abyss had 27 levels. Is this still a thing, to be re-added when diving has been implemented, or is it just going to be five levels?

[Kate]

Most likely just 5 or something close to it.

[nicolae]

Most likely just 5 or something close to it.

UGH crawl is ruined forever

[Jeremiah]

So how does this work; can you stair dance in the Abyss? And do stairs stay where they appear or will they be removed by morphing?

[nicolae]

So how does this work; can you stair dance in the Abyss? And do stairs stay where they appear or will they be removed by morphing?

"Abyssal stairs" are just portals to deeper in the Abyss -- there's no way back to the level you just left, as far as I can tell.

[Fungus]

I just made it through, found the rune on Abyss:5, got out. Took over an hour of real-time; perhaps it's just a combination of bad luck and Webtiles lag.

Overall I like it: less deep water/lava is very nice (I always hated that), more difficult at lower levels.

I would like to suggest, though, that the ancient zyme doesn't cause sickness when it's not aware of your presence. That was the worst thing, really... having a zyme at the edge of my LOS bring me to immediate "red" Sickness with nothing I could do about it. Things get nasty fast when you can't heal. I used up about 10 potions of curing... when I couldn't wait it out. Probably at least that many times that I retreated/teleported into a corner and held my breath.

Then again, perhaps it's my fault for not learning Necromutation first. That would have taken care of two of the "big" problems I faced (sickness+torment combo).

[Jeremiah]

If you leave the Abyss and later return, do you end up back on level 1 or the deepest level you have been to?

[brendan]

I would like to suggest, though, that the ancient zyme doesn't cause sickness when it's not aware of your presence. That was the worst thing, really... having a zyme at the edge of my LOS bring me to immediate "red" Sickness with nothing I could do about it.

I didn't implement this monster, but I don't believe this is desired behavior.

If you leave the Abyss and later return, do you end up back on level 1 or the deepest level you have been to?

You return to level 1.

UGH crawl is ruined forever

Thank you for your insightful feedback.

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

Spatial Maelstrom is going to be a ve-e-ery interesting challenge. Thank you very much!

[Psieye]

In the commit logs, there were a few other Abyss monsters that were implemented and then later cut (the "scroll of genocide" commit). Were they considered not interesting/unique enough or did something else demand their removal?

[Galefury]

A bit of both, IIRC.

Also, AFAIK Ancient Zymes sickening when unaware is intentional. Sickening you is not an attack, simply an effect of their presence. They are a manifestation of sickness and disease, and just being in their presence is bad. After all, in real life nobody has to intentionally infect you with a disease, diseases simply spread. Whether this is good or bad in crawl is a different issue, and of course it can be changed. That it is intentional doesn't mean it's set in stone.

[BlackSheep]

I haven't encountered a Zyme yet. How does the sickness wear off once it's dead? Do you have to wait for the typical duration to time out or does it go away shortly after the creature dies?

[njvack]

It's normal sickness, and times out normally even if you kill the zyme as far as I noticed. In Abyss, it feels like a much longer time than in Lair or Swamp, because you can't just mash 5.

If it's too harsh, an option would be to just have sickness wear off faster with a higher chance/aut of statrot.

[nicolae]

Thank you for your insightful feedback.

it's what i'm here for

real talk: I like the Inception Abyss so far. It needs a few more motifs like the river, to keep it from feeling same-y, but I think those are coming?

Edit: I do have a question about wretched stars: is it intentional that the transient mutations block cure mutation from curing permanent mutations?

[njvack]

UGH crawl is ruined forever

Thank you for your insightful feedback.

I think that was a joke?

[Fungus]

Right, the main problem with the Zyme is that even though I was a stealth character and could sometimes avoid them, I would get hit with Sickness which would be very difficult to work with as the tormenting mobs and others (tentacles, starcursed masses, etc) came fast and furious. But if it's supposed to be that difficult, I can certainly see that. I would recommend anyone diving for the abyssal rune to bring many potions of curing.

Other thoughts are: Now that I have the rune, departing Pan through the Abyss is EASY. There are gates everywhere in Abyss:1! I like that. On the other hand, it seemed like it took me a while to find a single gate at Abyss:5 once I had the rune. I think I read on IRC yesterday that it is supposed to be easier to depart the Abyss the lower you go and if you have the rune? The former wasn't working, and the latter... not sure if it was working that time on Abyss:5, but it's definitely working for me now.

[nicolae]

I think that was a joke?

this is slander i have never ONCE told a joke in my life

I do like the idea of the Abyss having a large amount of levels, and an Abyss with only five levels seems a tiny bit too similar to other branches which also have five levels, but this is just a personal aesthetics thing.

[ebarrett]

I think that was a joke?

this is slander i have never ONCE told a joke in my life

What about that spider god

[nicolae]

I think that was a joke?

this is slander i have never ONCE told a joke in my life

What about that spider god

and i was like "damn"

[Grimm]

Gentlemen, please. We have a perfectly adequate subforum for that kind of thing.

[galehar]

On the other hand, it seemed like it took me a while to find a single gate at Abyss:5 once I had the rune.

When you have the rune, gates generate more frequently. But when you grab it, the level around you is already generated. You have to walk to the edge of it to start generating new abyss area and benefit from the increased exit generation frequency. Or you can just teleport to have a brand new abyss level.
When this mechanism was introduced, you used to be teleported automatically when you grabbed the rune, but this was reverted (by me IIRC). We don't want to make it too easy to steal the rune from nasty vaults.

[brendan]

In the commit logs, there were a few other Abyss monsters that were implemented and then later cut (the "scroll of genocide" commit). Were they considered not interesting/unique enough or did something else demand their removal?

One was a unique with possibly annoying behavior. I think that the abyss should get uniques at some point.

The tilling worm was cut and replaced with the spatial maelstrom. They're essentially the same monster with different flavor.

[njvack]

When you have the rune, gates generate more frequently. But when you grab it, the level around you is already generated. You have to walk to the edge of it to start generating new abyss area and benefit from the increased exit generation frequency. Or you can just teleport to have a brand new abyss level.
When this mechanism was introduced, you used to be teleported automatically when you grabbed the rune, but this was reverted (by me IIRC). We don't want to make it too easy to steal the rune from nasty vaults.

You could just have it teleport the player "soon" -- that'd keep people from supermeganinjaing the rune but also not reward them for understanding abyss level gen mechanics.

[Pereza0]

Wow this is crazy cool.

Especially glad to hear about the new layouts and the slower morphing, I think it'll make it a lot more fun

[mumra]

I've finally been there and can report back: new Abyss is utterly terrifying. We're talking about an XL:27 mage who just firestormed TRJ to death, Abyss:1 still had me fleeing in terror at the first exit gate I found. Maybe it's in part not being familiar with the new monsters but still, it was great to be out of my comfort zone and facing genuinely new threats. Awesome sauce! The layout works really well too, just the right mix of chaos, order, and general weirdness.

[Moose]

I still wouldn't mind making the upper levels a tad more survivable while you're at it. You can still get one-turn banished, and hit with iron-shot for nearly 100 damage by a hell sentinel on the first level.

I'm all for the abyss being challenging, but It still seems like a death sentence to most of my characters, I was hoping the level thing would make the top a bit less miserable.

[brendan]

I'm all for the abyss being challenging, but It still seems like a death sentence to most of my characters, I was hoping the level thing would make the top a bit less miserable.

Unless we've grossly overshot the difficulty on Abyss:1, there aren't plans for making it any easier. Getting banished, particularly at low levels, is a raw deal. You should treat any encounter with a banisher as potentially fatal and exercise appropriate caution. The reduction in liquid volume should make the branch strictly more survivable for all characters apart from merfolk, orc priests, tengu.

If Hell Sentinels are your problem, the addition of new monsters should actually make your life easier. With the addition of eldritch monsters, the probability of encountering anything else has strictly decreased. There should be some more changes once mon-pick gets rewritten to remove chaff monsters (like imps) from the depths of the abyss.

[kaikaun]

If it were up to me, the Abyss would have many more levels, at least 27, preferably infinite like Pan. The deeper into the Abyss you go, the more likely the Abyssal rune will spawn, the less likely gates will spawn, the harder the monsters, and the better the loot according to some formula. With an infinite abyss, past a certain depth, you basically get guaranteed rune spawning within LOS upon coming down the stairs, along with awesomely ridiculous groups of monsters and equally awesome loot everywhere. Picking up the rune would be the only practical way to find a gate out at great depth.

Let the player choose how deep they want to go and how much challenge they want to accept in return for less time finding the rune. Let the max depth of Abyss reached in a game also be recorded. It would be a player challenge like Zig running, except endless. "I survived level 231 of the Abyss!" "Notice from devs: Past level 10,000 or so, every single square of the Abyss will almost certainly have a monster on it. You are not expected to survive."

[njvack]

If Hell Sentinels are your problem, the addition of new monsters should actually make your life easier. With the addition of eldritch monsters, the probability of encountering anything else has strictly decreased. There should be some more changes once mon-pick gets rewritten to remove chaff monsters (like imps) from the depths of the abyss.

Is the long-term plan to have a diverse enough set of eldritch creatures that the standard set of demons and undeads are mostly phased out as standard Abyss denizens? I kinda feel like Pan and Hell have already enough Hell Sentinels to satisfy anyone's appetite. I mean, if what they're hungry for is Hell Sentinel. Them's some good eatin', them sentinels.

Also! Maybe this is already a thing, but there should be some monster who can banish you down another level.

[KoboldLord]

If it were up to me, the Abyss would have many more levels, at least 27, preferably infinite like Pan. The deeper into the Abyss you go, the more likely the Abyssal rune will spawn, the less likely gates will spawn, the harder the monsters, and the better the loot according to some formula. With an infinite abyss, past a certain depth, you basically get guaranteed rune spawning within LOS upon coming down the stairs, along with awesomely ridiculous groups of monsters and equally awesome loot everywhere. Picking up the rune would be the only practical way to find a gate out at great depth.

Let the player choose how deep they want to go and how much challenge they want to accept in return for less time finding the rune. Let the max depth of Abyss reached in a game also be recorded. It would be a player challenge like Zig running, except endless. "I survived level 231 of the Abyss!" "Notice from devs: Past level 10,000 or so, every single square of the Abyss will almost certainly have a monster on it. You are not expected to survive."

And then a player uses Tornado to kill all those monsters that are on every square, using Makhleb to recover hp faster than they can be damaged and topping off mp whenever it ends up being necessary with a combination of self-Sublimation and a crystal ball. The game isn't actually properly balanced to handle the Ziggurats that already exist, much less the hypothetical infinite procedurally generated difficulty you're talking about, and it certainly wouldn't be an efficient allocation of hours spent coding.

[Psieye]

Also! Maybe this is already a thing, but there should be some monster who can banish you down another level.

Well, there was a commit for "if you get banished while in the Abyss, you get sent down a level". Not sure if there's a native monster that will banish you but God Wrath and That Guy You Banished Earlier are always there for your banishment needs.

[nordetsa]

I guess going to the abyss won't be a trivial but boring journey for lv 27 TSO melees.

So if lower abyss levels generate monsters faster, does it mean running away from scary things won't work well in lower parts?