Radical Ogre Proposal


Although the central place for this kind of discussion is on the CDO wiki, some may find it helpful to discuss potential requests and suggestions here first.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 115

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 23:21

Post Friday, 25th February 2011, 19:44

Radical Ogre Proposal

From the last thread on Ogres I noted a number of recurring themes:
1. People want a "tanky magic user" character in the vain of the old Ogre Mage class.
2. Ogres suck at tanking, removing one of their biggest assets (high HP)
3. Ogres are a crappy challenge class instead of I'M A BIG MEAN OGRE RAAAAR

I was reading some fantasy novels that portrayed Ogres as being terrifyingly strong creatures that could sustain horrific wounds and still fight on, as if they didn't feel pain.

Therefore, I'd like to make the following proposal--

Keep all the current apts, but give Ogres damage shaving.

Not as potent as the Deep Dwarf version (and it would be inherently less effective since you'd be stuck in robes and animal skins for a good chunk of the game anyway), but it would give Ogres a niche as the second potential "bulky caster" after Deep Dwarves and give the fighter variants a sense that the beast really is a pain resistant killing machine. It would certainly make Ogres worth a look as something other than just a "crappy version of a Troll".

For this message the author jackalKnight has received thanks:
roguelikedev
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 321

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:02

Post Friday, 25th February 2011, 19:54

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

I like ogres the way they are.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1533

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:52

Post Friday, 25th February 2011, 20:10

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

I don't get the sense that Ogres are going to be changed.

Maybe just the name is wrong. Maybe they should be "Ogre youngling" or just "Big pincushion". Then at least people would let go of the idea that they should be tough mofos.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Friday, 25th February 2011, 20:24

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

danr wrote:I don't get the sense that Ogres are going to be changed.

Maybe just the name is wrong. Maybe they should be "Ogre youngling" or just "Big pincushion". Then at least people would let go of the idea that they should be tough mofos.


Quite frankly, I'm not even sure what race with such characteristics like Crawl Ogres have now, could be named/made up. I'm already confident that right now we have not Ogre in it common sense. Not even nearly. I guess i'm gonna call them ogres instead from now on :)

So I tired of screaming on every corner about this. It's just pity that old-school players don't want to change anything, just because they got used to ogres the way they are.
Traditionalism is bad for progress. Just remember dark ages. If everyone would not change, discover, experiment and on and on - we would still be sitting in the caves, eating raw flesh. And as you know, raw flesh tastes unpleasant ;)

Snake Sneak

Posts: 115

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 23:21

Post Friday, 25th February 2011, 20:30

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

They did upgrade Gnomes into Deep Dwarves, so there is hope I guess. It's hilarious how weak Crawl Ogres are in comparison to, say Warhammer Ogres. Its like they're the ogre race's equivalent of the Washington Redskins.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 447

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 22:10

Post Friday, 25th February 2011, 20:40

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

could you please stop comparing crawl ogres to other ogres?

I personally want them mostly unchanged (just a bit of tweaking with fighting hp scaling but that applies to more than ogres, and maybe a bit more racial hp if they don't have enough after that) because I like them as a good challenge race, not just because I'm "used to [them] the way they are"
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1533

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:52

Post Friday, 25th February 2011, 20:49

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

I don't think you can prevent the comparison / confusion as long as they have the same name, or unless there is a big disclaimer in bold letters letting people know that Ogres in Crawl may not be what they are thinking.

Yes, they seem to be cherished as a challenge species. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's mostly just a case of false advertising. Sort of like if the Wanderer class were instead called the "Mercenary" or something.

I guess you could call it the "Ogre runt" - it was kicked out of its tribe because it was so frail compared to the others and now is making its own way in the world.

If you want a hardy spellcaster, I guess there's Nagas or Deep dwarves. If you just want a big powerful hulk, you'll have to be content with trolls, minotaurs, hill orcs and even mountain dwarves.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Friday, 25th February 2011, 21:47

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

danr wrote:If you just want a big powerful hulk, you'll have to be content with trolls, minotaurs, hill orcs and even mountain dwarves.


Yes. I very much want big powerful hulk (i know it's rhetorical question :roll: )
BUT!
Dwarves and orcs do not suffice to this term - they are born fighters but not nearly as big or hulky.
Minotaur is something intermediate. Though, game in terms of equipment sees them as big as any other humanoid race.
Trolls? Yes. They live up to this as much as anyone could in Crawl.
But I want to try a different playstyle of a hulk - without regen, but really tough in terms of HP. And I mean tough. Not be pushed over by kobolds on a D1.
If ogres are off-limits maybe new Giant race?
Just imagine - big, wielding two-handers in one arm - completely without armour and bashing most living things into dungeon floor without noticing most pokes and stabs as they hurt not as much for such a giant creature, as for human-sized ones.
Eh...dreams... :|

Snake Sneak

Posts: 115

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 23:21

Post Friday, 25th February 2011, 22:02

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Giants would have to have some real restrictions though to be viably different from Ogres/Trolls. Maybe have 200% EXP requirements (level at half the speed of humans/orcs) and the ability to randomly mature into Fire, Frost, or Titans?
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Friday, 25th February 2011, 22:17

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

jackalKnight wrote:Giants would have to have some real restrictions though to be viably different from Ogres/Trolls. Maybe have 200% EXP requirements (level at half the speed of humans/orcs) and the ability to randomly mature into Fire, Frost, or Titans?


Having decent HP for giant creature is quite different from ogres :)
200% XP maybe a little too harsh.
Maturing is a draconian gimmick. Besides, it would break flavor significantly - giants born the way they are.
Maybe keeping it simple (Hill giant only) would be best option.
Anyway, that's was just idea from top of my head - refining it could make it viable, but I don't see any chances of it's implementation. So I leave this at that - just dreaming.

For this message the author Curio has received thanks:
jackalKnight

Snake Sneak

Posts: 111

Joined: Tuesday, 18th January 2011, 17:51

Post Friday, 25th February 2011, 22:17

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

When I first started playing Crawl I naturally picked an Ogre because I wanted to smash things into pulps... I almost didn't come back.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 01:07

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Ogres should be multiweaponed mechanical killing machines, as Steve Jackson intended them to be:

Image
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1799

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 04:22

Location: Surabaya, Indonesia

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 03:01

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

We don't play Crawl to re-enact our fantasy imaginations (DnD, LOTR, etc). We play Crawl to... satisfy our masochism instincts. Or some other reasons which are similar to it. :D :D :D

Well, I myself would want the races and classes of Crawl to exactly mirror those of traditional fantasy culture... but let's just get realistic here. :)

Crawl's Ogres are fine the way they are. As a matter of fact, ogres tend to overlap with trolls in fantasy cultures. Ogres = big, bad, mean, take massive damage before they're down? That, to me, sounds like trolls in LOTR. :)

Spider Stomper

Posts: 233

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 20:58

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 05:19

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

seth wrote:When I first started playing Crawl I naturally picked an Ogre because I wanted to smash things into pulps... I almost didn't come back.


This argument holds more weight then anything else posted here. Meeting player expectations is important to any game. Unfortunately it will fall on deaf ears.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 09:18

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

"This argument holds more weight then anything else posted here. Meeting player expectations is important to any game. Unfortunately it will fall on deaf ears."

Yeah. Previous topic (Ogre Healthcare Department) overflowed with similar statements.
But that's does not matter - ogres seems to be a holy untouchable cow.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 09:25

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Jesus that's a great idea for a new race.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1533

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:52

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 10:08

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

What is - a holy untouchable cow?

Hmm....

A cow that wanders through the dungeon. Anything that touches it gets smitten by god wrath!

Yeah, that could work! The only thing is you have to find enough plants to eat.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1458

Joined: Sunday, 19th December 2010, 05:45

Location: New England

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 11:11

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

danr wrote:What is - a holy untouchable cow?

Hmm....

A cow that wanders through the dungeon. Anything that touches it gets smitten by god wrath!

Yeah, that could work! The only thing is you have to find enough plants to eat.


Holy Cow:

One armor slot- they can wear hats (but not helms, you got horns 2 or 3). No robes- The cow lacks the ability to get into one (it could, conceivably, drape a robe on it's back, but that counts as carrying, not wearing, and shall be treated as inventory, not equipment). Felid like item manipulation restrictions- maybe worse (hooves and a bovine chompers are much less designed for manipulation than cat's paws and jaws). Herbivore 3. Slow. Probably some amount of natural AC. Large sized.

Skill aptitudes: probably pretty bad, overall. NA for all weapons, armor, throwing, etc. Poor stealth, dodging (big and hooved). Possibly decent fighting / unarmed. Bad spellcasting. Excellent invocations- kinda the point of the race. Probably poor in most magic schools. Exceptions: maybe points in earth / air? These seem like the most natural elements to associated with a field dwelling creature- I mean the mind calls up a picture of a cows in a pasture under a blue sky pretty easy. I also like the idea of a race having pluses in opposing schools- either forces choice or compromise. Maybe... translocations too? Being in touch with spacial manipulation kinda makes sense for something touched by the gods. If that's not enough, maybe a +1 in summoning, affinity with other arcane creatures. Definitely should have bad apps in conjurations and enchantments.

Special racial gimmick: the holy protection. Anything that lays a hand on a holy cow (mele attack) is dealt divine retribution- a passive counteract similar to Yred's pain mirror. This means the holy cow is actually most efficient in terms of damage per turn if they're fighting out in the open, vulnerable to multiple attacks, rather than trapped in a hallway. This is also fits with the flavor of a field animal- you prefer open spaces (possibly expand this to penalties for fighting in enclosed spaces). This is not a win button though- we've got some trade offs. Divine retribution is payback- not protection. You still take the damage first. So in mele the challenge is to judge the situation correctly, and make sure you can handle the pain before diving in. The other challenge is dealing with ranged opponents- you're slow, and have poor magic apps, so ranged enemies become much deadlier.

So in essence? These guys make hydras trivial- and yaktaurs a nightmare.

Possible uses: HCWa seems natural- and tele to counter the slowness and escape crowds when your hp is gonna run out before your retribution. HCHe would also be good- healing to fuel your masochistic mode of attack longer, you don't lose eatable meat by pacifying, and you're free to sacrifice all the weapons you want. Makhelb works- hp from kills fueled by retribution- minions and blasts to take care of ranged things. ...actually, that sounds a little too effective. It might work better if the holy cow were blessed by the good gods- and thus incapable of worshiping an evil one (reverse of demonspawn).

Flavor background: a race descended from once humble bovine stock. While felids were created by exposure to and tinkering with the dark arts by witches, the ancestors holy cows were gradually uplifted by the powers of the gods of good from the herds of priests and holy men. As such, even though they might be considered a magic animal, they are much more in touch with the divine than the arcane. They have been blessed by the gods- and are protected by them. As the cows owe their providence and intellect to the Gods of good (even limited as a cows may be), they are forbidden from worshiping any evil god, lest they forfeit their protection and very minds. Holy cows make unlikely adventures- as they are mildly claustrophobic and prefer open spaces. They are however a race of strong convictions- convictions that can lead some individuals to unexpected places.

Edit: This started as a joke, but I think I sorta fell in love with the idea. Kudos to anyone who reads all that!

For this message the author mageykun has received thanks: 4
Dustbin, Grimm, Mychaelh, pratamawirya
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1799

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 04:22

Location: Surabaya, Indonesia

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 11:22

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

HOLY FCKING COW!!!
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 12:12

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

I'm amazed how a drop of word can evolve in something like mageykun described. Hilarious =)

Spider Stomper

Posts: 233

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 20:58

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 14:55

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Let me add a bit more. There need to be challenge races. Ogres should not be a challenge race. They are too well defined. People have expectations for them. If you want a challenge race invent something without so much baggage. Something like a holy cow or whatever, but don't take a well know myth and try to cram it into a box it does not fit into.

For this message the author acvar has received thanks: 2
psyshvl, Tiber

Snake Sneak

Posts: 115

Joined: Monday, 3rd January 2011, 23:21

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 15:34

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Difficulty rankings for races is a cool idea, but its still rather bizarre that a character that is basically a housecat is actually a much more usable character than the ogres are! I can understand power creep, but most of the newer classes (DDs, Felids, Vamps) seem to have at least some sort of fanbase claiming they're good at something.

For this message the author jackalKnight has received thanks: 2
Curio, vintermann
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 623

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 19:17

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 17:15

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Housecat is actually a much more usable character than the ogres are

This. Should be inscribed in-game description of ogres.
At least everyone will know what are the bargain.
And I will not rise O-question ever again. Just not gonna play them and leave that alone :roll:
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1799

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 04:22

Location: Surabaya, Indonesia

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 17:24

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Give Ogres more HP.

Armors reduce damage, but when we deal with something like Hellfire which ignores AC? That should be the time when Ogres really shine. :)
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1533

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:52

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 18:01

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

I'm still not done with the Holy Cow idea - one perk would be that Minotaurs are automatically friendly! A little too friendly...

For this message the author danr has received thanks:
pratamawirya

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 18:02

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

:lol:
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1533

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:52

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 18:18

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

"You hear a snort in the distance" would take on a whole new meaning...

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 18:22

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

The Holy Cow might have an alternative victory ending: make to the labyrinth, find the minotaur, and...raise a family!
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1799

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 04:22

Location: Surabaya, Indonesia

Post Saturday, 26th February 2011, 18:26

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

"The minotaur loves your scent."
"The minotaur pulls out something which freaks you out for a second."
"The minotaur dies happily." <-- when the cow kills it

Halls Hopper

Posts: 88

Joined: Wednesday, 16th February 2011, 06:33

Post Sunday, 27th February 2011, 16:58

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

I used to play Ogre a lot, even got a rune with one once. Then I found out that everything they do is done better by some other build. I guess I had some expectations after constantly having my mages squashed early-game by their NPC counterparts.

Ogre's Could be made better by improving their signature weapon: The giant spiked club. Sure it is already powerful, but if you can't take a hit you might as well counterbalance things with broken offense. Increase damage, decrease delay, and/or allow them to spawn with enchantments and brands.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 115

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 19:43

Location: Oulu, Finland

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 07:01

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Going against expectations (esp. new players') is a very good point. The "more HP from Fighting" idea sounds good to me (not sure if it fixes much tho). It's also touching how many people are so fond of the current Ogres. :)

--Eino
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1799

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 04:22

Location: Surabaya, Indonesia

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 08:15

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

evktalo wrote:Going against expectations (esp. new players') is a very good point.

It is... as long as the player finds it to be cool and fun. :)

Trying a race which is normally big, bad, and mean but finding it to be rather crappy instead... now that's not really cool. :)
User avatar

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 22

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 02:54

Location: Utah, United States of America

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 08:23

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

It's not even about Ogres potentially being contrary to expectations based on other mythologies, etc. The problem is that Ogres are contrary to the internal expectations of Crawl. When you play Crawl, Ogres are one of the very first monsters you can encounter that is extremely dangerous, often able to smash you in a single hit or two, and difficult to kill. Players get crushed by them a few times, and then realize that they can actually *play* as an Ogre? 'Hot dog, this'll be great! Sure, there will be disadvantages, but at least I can smash puny things..." and then they actually play an Ogre, and get clobbered by the second or third Kobold they meet.

My point is that the Ogre race plays *very* differently from how they are portrayed when you encounter them in the game as an enemy. "Ogre runt" as mentioned above would capture the idea a bit better, although that might still be an optimistic description.

If people want a challenge race, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't use a creature that is frequently encountered and feels very well defined, and then give it very different feeling characteristics when you actually play as one. It just feels wrong. When you play as an ogre, you shouldn't be thinking to yourself "Wow, I don't feel at all like the ogres I've seen in the game. I'm so easy to kill and vulnerable. What am I doing wrong?"

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 447

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 22:10

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 08:47

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

(ingame ogres are actually very squishy too, but inexperienced players probably feel otherwise)
(and if you want monster/player consistency, note that I'd love it too, but it would actually be more consistent with the rest of crawl to make/leave ogres inconsistent (the joke here is that crawl is full of player/monster inconsistency and isn't going to change))

Spider Stomper

Posts: 195

Joined: Thursday, 3rd February 2011, 13:14

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 10:35

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Those who want current ogres as a challenge race, have still not answered this which has been asked many times: Why do you need a dedicated challenge race? Why can't you just play a grey race/class combination?

The newer races, spriggans and undead are built around powerful advantages plus a crippling disadvantage. If you choose the wrong class/god with these, you will have more challenge - and far more interesting challenges - than Ogres.

Are Deep Dwarf Chaos Knights of Xom really too easy for you? Mummy berserkers? Centaur earth elementalists?
Crazy Yiuf mutters: "Good: bonuses. Bad: Boni. Ugly: Bonii!"

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 447

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 22:10

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 11:37

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

off the top of my head, ogres' unique strengths and weaknesses (good spellcasting but bad school apts, very poor defenses but high damage potential) and the ability to choose anything I want without the annoyances of other races
really there's just an appeal to a unique challenge; ogres fill this quite well, as do mummies. If you want the beefiest and bashiest and easiest you can go with trolls; the biggest problem is apparently everyone keeps getting hung up on the name (so rename ogres if you must).
I'd also like to ask you if you think mummies being generally challenging (no potions) is bad. If yes, why? If no, what's your gripe with ogres specifically, beyond superficial details like name?
Further on name, you could state that they're particularly squishy in their description (races have descriptions in the selection menu in console, at least, but you have to move the cursor over to see them; there's also the manual, but who reads that (aside from me)?).

Back on buffs, as I see it, it could go three ways:
1) reducing ogres' weaknesses (I strongly disagree here)
2) increasing ogres' strengths, like high hp and damage (I'm fine with this as long as they're still challenging (and don't just turn into slightly wimpier trolls with better spellcasting))
3) giving them wacky gimmicks (I'd really rather it not go this way, but it depends on the gimmick)

(on your specific examples, ddck and mube are too annoying for my tastes and ceee really isn't that bad)


I should also note that ogres are now only recommended for three professions (so arguments irrelevant to these are irrelevant to ogres' strengths/weakness (since crawl only cares about recommended combos being viable), and more specifically, to newbies getting all confused about ogres being bad):

berserker (kills things particularly quickly so it doesn't have to worry as much about defenses, and can go to troll/dragon armours easily, once it finds them; I hear it's pretty good but I haven't tried it myself)

wizard (disabling and surrounding things with summons is nice defensively)
I've won one of these; the early game was easy and by Zot I had enough exp to get a quite broad and powerful spell set (notably the level 6 charm Haste, level 7 translocation Controlled Blink (and of course phase shift), and level 7 Summon Hydra (though I could have gotten Shadow Creatures or Malign Gateway, which are better at trivializing Zot -- I also had 22 levels of Spellcasting, 10 of Hexes and 9 of Fighting (and a tiny bit of Staves), so feel free to put those wherever too))).
Admittedly I also used a broken Tukima's Dance (dancing giant spiked clubs), which is part of the reason why I didn't get those special spells for Zot. To make it interesting, I did zany stuff like early Snake:5 and Tomb (skipped Shoals), and from my past experiences with OgSu, I imagine it would be just fine without broken Tukima's (Summon Hydra, for instance, is really good, but the hydras are a bit squishier than giant spiked clubs) and especially without doing zany stuff.

hunter (large rocks kill things really quickly, making getting to the temple easy; like trhu but an ogre)

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2956

Joined: Sunday, 2nd January 2011, 02:06

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 12:15

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Modern folklore often depicts ogres as intimidating but cowardly bullies. Ogres are vicious and threatening, but somehow they always seem to get outsmarted, beaten up, or killed by normal children. Sure, if they have control your suffering will be horrible, but once you get the chance to turn the tables their sadism will turn to bluster and empty threats.

For this message the author KoboldLord has received thanks:
evktalo

Spider Stomper

Posts: 195

Joined: Thursday, 3rd February 2011, 13:14

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 12:39

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

MrMisterMonkey wrote:I'd also like to ask you if you think mummies being generally challenging (no potions) is bad. If yes, why? If no, what's your gripe with ogres specifically, beyond superficial details like name?


Mummies get a unique, powerful advantage in return for their challenges: no need for food. Yes, they are generally challenging, but they also can do things no other races can do (like spamming high-level spells the moment they can cast it reliably). I enjoy playing them on occasion. Lost one probably winnable one in the hells, going for extra runes.

Ogres get only weak advantages, in areas that other races effectively do much better at. Want to cast a wide variety of low level spells at little skill investement? Well, aside from that being a fairly narrow and situational advantage, many races do it better than ogres (which supposedly have it as a relative strength due to their spc apt). Want to be a "glass cannon" in melee, substituting damage-dealing for defensive skills? Well, there are several races that are more "cannon" in practice without being half as "glass". Whatever you want to do, there's some race that gives you a better deal than ogres.

How much do you play ogres, and how do you do it in a way that sets them apart? Tukima's on GSCs, OK, that's one thing, but it won't really make much difference over Tukima's on [the five best branded weapons you've found/Oka's given you]. Especially not now that Tukima's nerfed.
Crazy Yiuf mutters: "Good: bonuses. Bad: Boni. Ugly: Bonii!"
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 321

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:02

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 14:15

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

I won with an OgWn once and nearly won with an ogre online on my 1st try (1st Zot:5 death as well :P). I think ogres are fun, because they're an interesting challenge.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1768

Joined: Monday, 21st February 2011, 15:57

Location: South Carolina

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 16:44

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

What if we renamed player Ogres to Hobgoblins?

Nobody expects hobgoblins to be good at anything. They're just bigger ugly goblins.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6393

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 18:17

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 17:44

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

MrMisterMonkey wrote:3) giving them wacky gimmicks (I'd really rather it not go this way, but it depends on the gimmick)


Whatever else may happen with ogres, I propose in all seriousness they get a bonus when fighting elephants, doubled when using an ankus against them. Say, elephants cannot push an ogre, and if the ogre has an ankus, he can push elephants.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1533

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:52

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 17:57

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

jejorda2 wrote:What if we renamed player Ogres to Hobgoblins?

Nobody expects hobgoblins to be good at anything. They're just bigger ugly goblins.

That is possibly the best Ogre proposal I've ever seen.

1) It preserves it as the same "challenge class" that is cherished by all the macho players
2) It saves new players and minmaxers from the misleading ground of "Ogres should be bad-ass killing machines".

I personally don't care about Ogres - there are enough other good species to play that it's no loss to me. Seeing how often Ogre threads pop up on this forum, on the other hand, is a bit tiresome. I think that will continue to happen as long as new players keep coming to the forum and there is a mismatch between the species name and the popular conceptions of that species.

Blades Runner

Posts: 554

Joined: Tuesday, 25th January 2011, 14:24

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 18:10

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

There'd be an even greater lack of explanation about the spellcasting then.

OT: If you wanted a "clearly bad at everything" race, though, regular goblin would be a "good" choice.

Back on-topic: How about an inherent bonus (+dam and/or +acc) to maces/flails for Ogres, on par with Troll's inherent bonus to unarmed/claws? It would make them a bit more cannon-ish glass-cannons, and also more like the in-game Ogres demolishing you with their giant (spiked) clubs...
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1799

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 04:22

Location: Surabaya, Indonesia

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 18:13

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Wait... how big is a Hobgoblin? Big enough to be unable to wear armors?

I guess I can say that how the devs treat the playable Ogre race reflects how much they want the game to be popular. ;)
User avatar

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 150

Joined: Sunday, 23rd January 2011, 20:04

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 18:27

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

How about a Giant Gnome Race that basically replaces the current Ogre one for anybody insane enough to actually like playing them. Then the Devs can construct a new Ogre race that isn't terrible.
I don't care what it is but something needs to change.
Ogres are NOT an original creature made up by DC:SS so we should show them a little bit more respect.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 447

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 22:10

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 19:03

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

respecting what other people say about made-up stuff is kind of silly; the only reason I see for bothering with that is that apparently newbies get all confused when ogres are squishy

on specialty, here are a few aspects (off the top of my head):
  • can use giant spiked clubs -- competes with trolls, but trolls are a bit worse at them and
  • can use large rocks -- competes with trolls
  • can use large shields with low penalty -- competes with trolls
  • bizarre spell apts
  • can be really squishy without artificial conducts
so they end up being kind of like trolls but with better and less painful spellcasting instead of good unarmed damage or regeneration or any of that
so if you're looking for something they do better than everything else, how about some combination of casting spells and using a gsc or large rocks or large shield?

(I'd still prefer noting that ogres are squishy over renaming them, which messes up a bunch of stats and all)

I'd also like to bring a quote back up (from the ogre healthcare thread):
dpeg wrote:There is (and probably always was) a demand for challenge species. When Og and OM were merged (that was a proposal of mine), the idea was to create a challenging species with a unique twist. That twist is the great Spc aptitude counteracted by the abysmal magical aptitudes. I fully accept that this concept is not for everyone, but we got enough positive feedback about post merge Og that I think the species is okay for now.


(please stop going on about how a challenge species is bad and thanks in advance)

7hm

Snake Sneak

Posts: 109

Joined: Wednesday, 2nd February 2011, 03:20

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 19:06

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Renaming to Ogre Runt, as someone early in the thread posted, would also be a good solution. It pretty well explains the lack of defenses away, while even an Ogre Runt would be big enough to be unable to wear normal size armour.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3342

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 19:40

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

Sorry to spray water, but I don't think most of the proposals will materialise.
Yes, Ogre is a tough species, this is reflected by the shortage of recommended backgrounds.
Yes, new players come to fear monster ogres because of the high damage potential. However, a player Ogre will deal good damage with a giant (spiked) club, too.
Yes, a player Ogre's defences are lacking, but, coincidentally, so are the monster ogre's.
I am against renaming the species. While we don't strive for monster-player symmetry, having monster and player versions coexist is good (because it allows to build an image, or mythology if you will, from both ends.) For example, removal of Gnomes felt easier because there were no monster gnomes, player Deep Elves are somewhat protected by their monster versions, adding the Vampire species and Spriggan monsters added to this symmetry etc.
For those who complain about Ogres, did you think that old Og (before the Og/OM merge) was easier?
What remains is the possibility of species-related HP gain. This would surely boost Ogres.

For this message the author dpeg has received thanks:
MrMisterMonkey

Snake Sneak

Posts: 111

Joined: Tuesday, 18th January 2011, 17:51

Post Monday, 28th February 2011, 21:05

Re: Radical Ogre Proposal

I don't think it's necessary to change the Ogre class much, but for as much as people here talk about challenge races, the game doesn't. The fact that only 3 backgrounds are recommended for Ogres is a good start in getting that across for new players, but I don't think it's clear enough. One might assume that Ogres are bad at most backgrounds and excel at those three. Maybe challenge races should be grayed out on the select screen, even before you pick a background. Something obvious and to the point.

For this message the author seth has received thanks: 2
smock, zasvid
Next

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alaen, cacticus, MainiacJoe and 2 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.