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Re: Long Blades, M&F effect brainstorm
gnöll
gnōll
gnõll
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
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dpeg wrote:minmay: that's right. Unicode would actually allow that... we probably need just four or so indicators, and those could be done with accents and umlauts.
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dpeg wrote:crate: "forcing unicode on console players" -- how?
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XuaXua wrote:Therefore, Long Blades cause bleeding, which can be considered a "state" where HP is lost over time, akin to poisoning.
Maces and Flails can induce stunning, which can add a minor delay to the next attack from the target.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
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....
.@.K
....
..o.
_you see a kobold and a orc priest
....
..@%
....
..o.
_you charge towards the kobold. You smash the kobold!. The kobold is killed
....
...%
..@.
..o.
_you charge towards the orc priest. The orc priest evades your smash!
_the orc priest hits you with a dagger.
_you hit the orc priest. The orc priest is lightly damaged.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
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Lasty wrote:This idea came up before for long swords. One problem with it is that any monster chasing you with a mace would hit you every turn -- imagine a fight with an Ogre with a GSC goes wrong: if you run from it, it gets a free, extra-deadly attack with each step!
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2) Attacker that moves to reach adjacency to a target gains a simultaneous (dynamic) attack -the smash- which:
2.a) Ignores the AC of the target (pro)
2.b) Has a higher chance to be evaded (cons, but hey, it's an extra attack!)
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Lasty wrote:This idea came up before for long swords. One problem with it is that any monster chasing you with a mace would hit you every turn -- imagine a fight with an Ogre with a GSC goes wrong: if you run from it, it gets a free, extra-deadly attack with each step!
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
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pratamawirya wrote:EDIT: Even if the smash happens like the current proposal, it won't be that interesting for the player, since most monsters do not run away when they're injured (and a lot of the ones that do are faster than speed 10).
imagine a fight with an Ogre with a GSC goes wrong: if you run from it, it gets a free, extra-deadly attack with each step!
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
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BlackSheep wrote:While the directional attack does mitigate the danger from a mace-wielding monster, it also makes the ability much less intuitive for the player to use.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
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Roderic wrote:Not always, the square of adjacency in the same direction as the monster moves is a restriction (sorry if bad explained above):
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duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
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Roderic wrote:I agree that Crawl allows more directions than the intuitive eight, so that the proposal above is also fine to me, but I would like that the side positions make the attack less hard. This way the strategy of retreating from an ogre seen above is still optimal in open spaces. The idea was to not make monsters much more nastier than they are.
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ebarrett wrote:4. Staves get a rapidly increasing speed bonus when you land consecutive hits. This stacks with the occasional speed brand.
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ebarrett wrote:4. Staves get a rapidly increasing speed bonus when you land consecutive hits. This stacks with the occasional speed brand.
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BlackSheep wrote:I've read all of the other ideas on your list before, and would throw my support behind any of them. The one above is new to me, and intriguing. I've seen devs voice reservations about adding weapon abilities that are straight damage buffs, which this sounds like. It's still the best suggestion I've seen for staves, and would make pain/elec/distortion lajatangs amazing. (Not that lajatangs with those brands suck now...)
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dpeg wrote:minmay: that's right. Unicode would actually allow that... we probably need just four or so indicators, and those could be done with accents and umlauts.
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Happylisk wrote:I think Axes, short blades (once merged with stabbing), and staves are fine. The question is what to do with Maces and LB.
I think maces should be the vanilla weapons. They are the simplest in terms of real world mechanics - you bash stuff. There are legendary swordsmen. There aren't legendary bashers.
For LB, I propose the following effect: Parry. Parry functions as the inverse of cleave: a defensive bonus that only procs against multiple targets. In a one on one fight, there is no (or only a small) bonus. When adjacent to two or more enemies, the player receives an EV or block bonus against all enemies except the last enemy attacked by the player.
Thematically, this is to represent nimble sword play that keeps popcorn at bay while you focus on your main enemy. Strategically, like cleaving, while fighting in corridors is still superior, this passive bonus will give LB users a defensive edge when forced to fight multiple enemies in the open. UI wise, like cleave and stabbing there is no clunky imposition on melee combat. In terms of reciprocity, the player will not really notice this against LB wielding monsters unless heavily reliant on allies.
In sum, maces become the vanilla weapon, axes are more aggressive, LB more defensive.
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ebarrett wrote:1. M&F cause a short "stun" on big damage. That stun causes the monster to skip one turn of game time (or maybe some duration based on damage, with both a low and a high cap?). Whips/demon whips also have the same effect though with a different flavour (the monster "cowers" or "backs off" of whatever). You can't stunlock a monster, and a stunned monster isn't any more prone to stabbing.
ebarrett wrote:2. Long blades steal the minotaur retaliation gimmick, frequency capped by current delay. (And then minotaurs get the axe because now they're just bad hill orcs!)
ebarrett wrote:3. Short blades and stabbing get merged, non-sbl lose all stabbing bonuses apart from some freebie minimal extra damage multiplier that applies to every weapon (even short blades!) and isn't changed by anything and is rather lousy. I don't think anyone ever trained stabbing to use it with a trident anyway.
ebarrett wrote:4. Staves get a rapidly increasing speed bonus when you land consecutive hits. This stacks with the occasional speed brand.
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twelwe wrote:Just to repeat: I would like staves removed as melee weapons (attacking with an elemental staff would be a clumsy bash) and replaced with whips. Whips should be given constriction.
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nicolae wrote:minmay once suggested that the unrand Snakebite should get constriction, which I think is a cool idea, but to me it doesn't quite make sense for ordinary whips. Holding might work, though.
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Davion Fuxa wrote:[Unarmed Combat] is the only Weapon skill that can be combined with another Weapon skill
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