Vault descriptions

[VargrVeum]

Just a thought, and perhaps it's been discussed and dismissed already - but what if vaults came with a little flavour text?

One of my favourite parts of the game, those little glimpses into something beyond random generation - I know it doesn't improve gameplay but it might make the little vignettes a little more rounded?

"You stumble upon a fetid gnoll camp. Young halflings stare at you from inside a cage with terrified, baleful eyes."

and so on - kind of Zin's angels and yred's zombifying misama.

[JeffQyzt]

You can already somewhat accomplish that via more complex vault scripting (and some have.) It's up to the vault authors to implement that though, and not everyone appreciates the break in flow that a message generates.

Adding flavor text messages for *all* vaults, though, would clearly be over the top (perhaps you don't realize just how many dungeon features are implemented as vaults? Hint - lots and lots.)

[mad]

I'm trying to imagine mundane flavour text for some really "dull/commonplace" vaults...

"You walk into the hallway! You see it has pleasing statues near it."

"You see the entrance of the temple! The clear glass walls dare you to break through them."

[nicolae]

I'm trying to imagine mundane flavour text for some really "dull/commonplace" vaults...

"You walk into the hallway! You see it has pleasing statues near it."

"You see the entrance of the temple! The clear glass walls dare you to break through them."

"You see here a loaf of bread. It seems like it was placed here just for you..."

[Stormfox]

Boy, you all are really pushing for the DCSS: Text-Based Interactive Fiction fork, aren't you?

[claws]

There's a quiet hate amongst a few in ##crawl based on the perceived pointlessness of monster flavour re-names promoting spoilers, and more random descriptive messages for vaults would have the same issues. I don't personally hate the practice as a whole (though I've almost never used it short of self-evidently harmless works like demonic plants), but I'd rather let vault contents speak for themselves in most cases rather then mask random areas with prose. If further description is desired, then the default monster, item, and feature descriptions and quotes should be quite enough when combined with actually playing the game.

Consider: The hungry kobolds vault already has neutral halflings (almost never seen monsters already!) blocked off by iron grates, some scattered skeletons strewn across the floor, and a solitary flame surrounded by kobolds and plants. Isn't this already enough to imply some dudes are going to be eaten without special names and descriptions for the food and its gourmands? Does this really need a message line dedicated to declaring it?

[evilmike]

let vault contents speak for themselves

This is the way to go. Vaults usually shouldn't resort to renaming, special messages, etc.

There are small, unintrusive ways to add a bit of flavour - give the vault custom tiles, and maybe rename a feature (for example, several vaults use renamed statues). This kind of thing is the best way to give a vault a unique feel, and it doesn't "cost" anything (whereas, a renamed monster might confuse players).

Stuff that goes beyond this (such as renaming monsters, or printing special messages) can be ok in some cases, but it should be done sparingly. >99% of the vaults in crawl don't use any of this, and that's the way it's going to stay.

[twelwe]

lets add achievements to crawl

'you did this' enter level two
'okman' enter level three
'yeah twice' enter level ffour
'you're mom' kill jessica
'lets take one look' you go into the lair but you leave a turn later, is a joke achievement (these are great to do, erevyone like jokes achievemnt)
'hey sexy lady; kill psyche
'fick rout' kill redh man
'blue unit' another joke achievemnt, is a dev joke, you dont get it
'dwarves are gone' you create a minotaur, and this is what you see when you start, its the free achuevement, ant gets people to play this game

ok what do u think

[nicolae]

lets add achievements to crawl

'you did this' enter level two
'okman' enter level three
'yeah twice' enter level ffour
'you're mom' kill jessica
'lets take one look' you go into the lair but you leave a turn later, is a joke achievement (these are great to do, erevyone like jokes achievemnt)
'hey sexy lady; kill psyche
'fick rout' kill redh man
'blue unit' another joke achievemnt, is a dev joke, you dont get it
'dwarves are gone' you create a minotaur, and this is what you see when you start, its the free achuevement, ant gets people to play this game

ok what do u think

'make a good post' achievement (twelwe will never get this achievement BOOM *drops mic, walks off stage*

[sardonica]

Stuff that goes beyond this (such as renaming monsters, or printing special messages) can be ok in some cases, but it should be done sparingly. >99% of the vaults in crawl don't use any of this, and that's the way it's going to stay.

You say that it CAN be ok, but it SHOULD be done sparingly, and that WILL be the way it WILL stay.

Just curious if there's any reason or just because you say so?

[dpeg]

sardonica: claws gave some reasoning, evilmike singled out a line and explained in clear sentences the goal, including some further reasoning and examples. He is the developer who is doing vault work, including adding (read: testing and tweaking) player made vaults. Before evilmike, I was that developer and I can tell you, he is spot on.

It is one thing to ask why certain things are the way they are, but it's quite another to keep pushing. This is annoying and it has driven off developers from public discussions (not saying that evilmike is going to be offended by your post, but I am). There are many more players than developers and it is very strenuous to keep answering questions that have been answered already.

[onton]

"It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue." every time you descend

[onton]

To the topic: maybe implement signs? If people are willing to place them and more people are willing to read them - let them do it. If not, things just stay as they are with no extra work and message spam.

[palin]

Just curious if there's any reason or just because you say so?

SARCASTIC MODE ON

Because HE is doing the stuff and YOU aren't. If you don't like, you can always fork. It's open source, after all.

SARCASTIC MODE OFF

It seems to me a valid point too.

[VargrVeum]

I'm trying to imagine mundane flavour text for some really "dull/commonplace" vaults...

"You walk into the hallway! You see it has pleasing statues near it."

"You see the entrance of the temple! The clear glass walls dare you to break through them."

Hehe true - perhaps not for ALL vaults (although it should be obvious to most whether the vault implies a story or just adds a nice sense of structure to the dungeon.) Just a thought that occured - I quite like the feeling of sub-stories etc, but then again the vaults ought to speak from themselves as stated above.

[VargrVeum]

Consider: The hungry kobolds vault already has neutral halflings (almost never seen monsters already!) blocked off by iron grates, some scattered skeletons strewn across the floor, and a solitary flame surrounded by kobolds and plants. Isn't this already enough to imply some dudes are going to be eaten without special names and descriptions for the food and its gourmands? Does this really need a message line dedicated to declaring it?

Yup, was suggesting flavour to capitalise on an excellent feature of dungeon design - hence the descriptive text and not a overstated explanation.

"There are some hobbits here. they are going to get et."

[VargrVeum]

lets add achievements to crawl

'you did this' enter level two
'okman' enter level three
'yeah twice' enter level ffour
'you're mom' kill jessica
'lets take one look' you go into the lair but you leave a turn later, is a joke achievement (these are great to do, erevyone like jokes achievemnt)
'hey sexy lady; kill psyche
'fick rout' kill redh man
'blue unit' another joke achievemnt, is a dev joke, you dont get it
'dwarves are gone' you create a minotaur, and this is what you see when you start, its the free achuevement, ant gets people to play this game

ok what do u think

I know some people like the achievement system in games, but I don't know that it'd be suited to crawl

[roctavian]

I know some people like the achievement system in games, but I don't know that it'd be suited to crawl

*whoooosh*

[nicolae]

Consider: The hungry kobolds vault already has neutral halflings (almost never seen monsters already!) blocked off by iron grates, some scattered skeletons strewn across the floor, and a solitary flame surrounded by kobolds and plants. Isn't this already enough to imply some dudes are going to be eaten without special names and descriptions for the food and its gourmands? Does this really need a message line dedicated to declaring it?

Yup, was suggesting flavour to capitalise on an excellent feature of dungeon design - hence the descriptive text and not a overstated explanation.

"There are some hobbits here. they are going to get et."

But you don't need to put in a description to point out that the hobbits are going to get et. The scenario itself suggests it pretty well already with no specific words whatsoever.

[VargrVeum]

*whoooosh*

Thought feigned obtuseness might appeal to someone who appears to communicate entirely with sarcasm

[VargrVeum]

But you don't need to put in a description to point out that the hobbits are going to get et. The scenario itself suggests it pretty well already with no specific words whatsoever.

Precisely - there's no need for exposition, my suggestion was to add flavour as vaults are predefined and thus a known quantity. The vaults speak for themselves perfectly satisfactorily, and I wasn't suggesting some sort of ham-fisted means of explaining what's happening - just proposing adding a little something to further round out the implied narratives.

was entirely a personal opinion - i like words and find they help me get a feel for atmospherics.

[mumra]

To the topic: maybe implement signs? If people are willing to place them and more people are willing to read them - let them do it. If not, things just stay as they are with no extra work and message spam.

Emphasis mine - it's very difficult to implement something without doing any work ... some might say impossible!

Having said that I actually like the idea of "readable furniture" which is basically what this is; and it's not even too hard to do in LUA. It would give vault designers a consistent way to communicate information to the player without being over the top or getting in the way. Currently you can use door warnings or floor / LOS triggers, neither of which methods are always appropriate, and they can break the game flow a bit. Maybe you want to play a melee character who doesn't want to or can't actually read signs...

I had an idea a while back for a serial graveyard vault where all the graves had different epitaphs telling some backstories of various unfortunate adventurers; I started making it but was a bit stuck on the best way to script "reading" the graves in LUA. I wanted the player to have to go up close to read the graves, so I could ambush them with a zombie of whoever is described in the epitaph rising up from the grave. But since there's no comparable mechanism anywhere else in Crawl it seemed there was a risk it might not work properly on a lot of players.

Of course you still have to think pretty carefully about what the signs actually say and who wrote it, and whether one is even necessary; ... but as a suggestion with the hungry kobolds from claws' example they could have put up a sign something like "Free Treasure This Way ->" ... which tells a bit more story of how the halflings ended up in there, without ramming anything too obvious down your throat.

I know some people like the achievement system in games, but I don't know that it'd be suited to crawl

*whoooosh*

There was actually a deadly serious thread about achievements a while back. There seemed to be a whole bunch of people who thought this was an amazing idea, despite me pointing out that Crawl already has achievements, like: the first time you reach a particular branch, the first time you get a rune, the first time you beat the game. I don't need the game to validate my effort by giving me a virtual medal, I know how hard it's been! Not to mention the tourney banners which actually are an achievements system but really a bit more interesting because they're part of a meaningful competitive structure. So please let's stop any further talk of achievements right now before anyone else starts taking it seriously

[One-Eyed Jack]

In fact, maybe we should hold a tournament

[galehar]

just proposing adding a little something to further round out the implied narratives.

Well then do it. As it has already been stated, some vaults already have messages and we're not against the idea as long as it is used sparingly. If you think some vaults could use some messages, then submit some. If you don't care enough to do it yourself, I doubt anything would come out of this thread.

[VargrVeum]

just proposing adding a little something to further round out the implied narratives.

Well then do it. As it has already been stated, some vaults already have messages and we're not against the idea as long as it is used sparingly. If you think some vaults could use some messages, then submit some. If you don't care enough to do it yourself, I doubt anything would come out of this thread.

I enjoy seeing the suggestions and reasoning that goes on here, but the truth is you're entirely right - I don't care enough to do it myself (at least not enough to learn more about the coding and development process - I'd be more than happy to write flavour-wise, though i suspect simply saying this will provoke a shit-storm). It's a game, and a very enjoyable one; but beyond casual speculation it has very little impact on my life. My apologies if making what i thought was an innocent suggestion has in some way offended.

[Galefury]

In this case content is probably the biggest part of the work by far. So if you can write good messages for some vaults, someone else might take care of actually displaying them.

[galehar]

I enjoy seeing the suggestions and reasoning that goes on here, but the truth is you're entirely right - I don't care enough to do it myself (at least not enough to learn more about the coding and development process - I'd be more than happy to write flavour-wise, though i suspect simply saying this will provoke a shit-storm). It's a game, and a very enjoyable one; but beyond casual speculation it has very little impact on my life. My apologies if making what i thought was an innocent suggestion has in some way offended.

There is no need to learn about coding to contribute. Submitting flavour text is perfectly acceptable and even encouraged. Although you might want to at least learn the basics of the vault syntax to be able to read and understand existing vaults. Or maybe you could just create vaults in wizmode to visit them, but I'm not sure it would be more efficient.
Anyway, your suggestion was not offending at all, I was just saying that it's likely to be ignored if not backed up by actual content.

[Stormfox]

But you don't need to put in a description to point out that the hobbits are going to get et. The scenario itself suggests it pretty well already with no specific words whatsoever.

Letting the player fill in the gaps makes some of the situations even more descriptive. There's not a whole lot of room for alternative interpretations of the Lair vault with three bears and some potions of porridge. But the early vault with the minotaur corpses, beef jerky, and blood splattered everywhere...is that an actual butcher shop, the site of a mass murder, or something else? Joking about interactive fiction aside, the mind's picture-painting ability has near-infinite resolution, in a situation where a picture is worth a thousand words.

Since the game isn't plot-driven and the various vaults and other features don't have any direct connection to each other, there's no One True interpretation that needs to be present in order to advance the narrative.

[TehDruid]

Stormfox has hit the nail on the head, the thing is, flavour text is all fine and dandy, but tbh thinking about why certain vaults are the way they are leads different people to different flavours of the same thing, because one's imagination varies wildly from another's and I think that's better than spoon-fed information. The console provokes one's imagination even better, since you're given a bare-bone structure on which you can build images and sounds of the dungeon. I play tiles because I don't mind about that personally. I find them more pleasant to the eye, but for some people, the tile that depicts a certain unique for example, can be really far from what they might have imagined them to be.

Anyway, simplicity is good, in this case.

[dpeg]

I come from Nethack and I never liked how they print large walls of text (the startup babble about Marduk, or the quest blurb, neither of which has any gameplay significance).
In Crawl, it should be better, and I like how our story telling is much more subtle. Currently, there is some story telling going on with uniques (some have a backstory and may tell a bit about it with their speech), certain vaults and perhaps Slime/Jiyva, Abyss/Lugonu. There is potential for more, and I approve of that (and have ideas for more story telling).
For vaults, you can get something you want already: lua triggers for messages, or have a custom-made monster and use its description. I think that suffices, and it should be used sparingly.

[sardonica]

It is one thing to ask why certain things are the way they are, but it's quite another to keep pushing. This is annoying and it has driven off developers from public discussions (not saying that evilmike is going to be offended by your post, but I am). There are many more players than developers and it is very strenuous to keep answering questions that have been answered already.

I'm sorry, dpeg... I thought when a game had "game design discussion" in the forum, it was inviting "game design discussion" from people who were not developers.

I have submitted code that has been incorporated into crawl, but not under this name. So in fact, I am a developer.

You have probably submitted more. That is awesome.

What we are blasting here is ideas and not people. You are cool and I am cool and everyone else here is cool.

[dpeg]

sardonica: I got a bit thick-skinned about having to reply the ever same questions. I did not mean to insult you. Perhaps my previous reply in this thread explains a bit where I am coming from.

[VargrVeum]

I come from Nethack and I never liked how they print large walls of text (the startup babble about Marduk, or the quest blurb, neither of which has any gameplay significance).
In Crawl, it should be better, and I like how our story telling is much more subtle. Currently, there is some story telling going on with uniques (some have a backstory and may tell a bit about it with their speech), certain vaults and perhaps Slime/Jiyva, Abyss/Lugonu. There is potential for more, and I approve of that (and have ideas for more story telling).
For vaults, you can get something you want already: lua triggers for messages, or have a custom-made monster and use its description. I think that suffices, and it should be used sparingly.

Oh absolutely, and from my fairly brief time with nethack - the silly start up info which is almost entirely the same save some arbitrary change in deity name was a surprisingly large turn off.
All i meant for vault description was something pinned to an element which is set - not a description of the scene as the vault itself would suffice and over wordy descriptions would detract from the flow of the game (which is a major quality of the game). I always quite enjoy the little bit of text about the magic user with his bowels filling with flame etc