Wizards


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 06:50

Wizards

Ok so I update to latest trunk (I try to download em every few days or so) and I start a DEWi....and the game doesn't ask me for a choice of books. Ok. I open up my starting book and...

Blink
Call Imp
Repel Missiles
Slow
Conjure Flame
Mephitic Cloud

What the fuck am I looking at here? Call Imp? Slow? Who the fuck needs those?
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 07:10

Re: Wizards

I assume magic dart is still there are you just omitted to mention it? Because that's a pretty drastic change if it's gone.

Also, is that one book? Seems kinda huge to me, especially for a starting book. You shouldn't get too many goodies right out of the gate.

All three wiz books had slow, not sure why that bothers you. There's at least one summon spell in each, and summon imp kinda makes sense as an average, even if it wasn't there before. Repel missiles was in sum, conjure fire from fire, and I guess ice didn't make a contribution.

Looks like the ever debated pruning of magic backgrounds has finally started.

Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 07:21

Re: Wizards

Well of course it has Magic Dart, no point in mentioning it.

And I know Slow was in the old books too - it was just as useless back then. In most cases I either killed anything that would require a slow spell, or I ran away as soon as I saw it and didn't need it slowed down. My main problem with this book is that now wizards lack even a level 2 attack spell.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 07:40

Re: Wizards

level 2 attack spell: call imp
note that slow is level 2, too, now (so it's more useful)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 14:20

Re: Wizards

Looks pretty good to me. Wizard was the best conjurations background before, so it clearly didn't need another buff. Blink, Repel Missiles, and Mephitic Cloud are a really ridiculously desirable early-game trinity, and you can go Vehumet to get a big blast right about when you need it. Having a mid-tier blast spell is really one of the only reasons to even bother choosing one of the other conjurations-focused backgrounds.

Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 18:04

Re: Wizards

Guess I might as well use this thread as general Wizard advice. My DEWz is doing fine, managed to get to the temple, worship Vehumet and a bit before that found a Book of Power. I already learned Iskenderun's Mystic Blast, which other spells should I learn? I'm thinking of getting Poison Cloud when my poison/air magic is a bit higher, I can also learn Venom Bolt (is it worth it?). On that note, should I bother with iron shot and mass confusion later on?
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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 18:23

Re: Wizards

Poisonous Cloud is great for ages and ages, definitely pick it up (don't bother with Venom Bolt). Probably wait for Poison Arrow rather than Iron Shot, and don't bother with Mass Confusion (generally there's not much point investing in Hexes unless you're a stabber or want to abuse Tukima's Dance - although I guess Darkness could be cool).

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 00:26

Re: Wizards

Mystic Blast will be your staple popgun the moment you get it to hungerless, and it'll be something to pull out against particularly strong single monsters until that point. Rather than Venom Bolt, stick with Bolt of Cold or Bolt of Magma, depending on which version of Conjurations you got. Cold is better than Magma, but either one is going to be your staple crowd-killer for a good long time. Poisonous Cloud is extremely good, and unlike the other damaging cloud spells is relatively safe to use in close quarters as long as you have the appropriate resistance.

Coming up in the next books are Poison Arrow if you've invested in poison, Summon Small Mammals for assisting escape, and Abjuration for shutting down summoners. They're handy if you want them, but they aren't quite as important as getting the spells from the first two books. Much, much later on, you can add Fire Storm or Ice Storm too, but they're too hard to cast to bother with until the very end of the game.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 05:21

Re: Wizards

Throwing in my two cents from my recent DEWz (Ice/Air):

Mephitic Cloud saw a lot of use early on, but by the time I got the cost of Freezing Cloud down, it rarely saw use. Pretty sure the last fight it was used was against Nessos. So, with that in mind, I completely abandoned poison in favor of focusing my attention (roughly equally) on ice and air. My key damage spells throughout the midgame were Mystic Blast, Freezing Cloud, and Airstrike. The only fights I fled from with this setup were Mara and Frederick, both located on Swamp:5. Made a couple attempts at Fred, but decided to call it quits after getting a couple lucky teleports when fleeing. Mara, however, was conveniently asleep and I didn't dare try my hand against her with the godawful resists I had. This set even got me through a 6000 turn stay in the Abyss, so I'd say it's pretty damn effective (Although having a fully charged teleport wand certainly helped, heh).

Also had many of the utility spells memorized by this point: Haste, Repel + Deflect Missiles, Abjuration, Ozocubu's Armour, and an assortment of translocations.

It wasn't until after I got through the Abyss (<3 Zot traps) that I finally learned Ice Storm, making the rest of the game near trivial.

Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 05:46

Re: Wizards

KoboldLord wrote:Looks pretty good to me. Wizard was the best conjurations background before, so it clearly didn't need another buff. Blink, Repel Missiles, and Mephitic Cloud are a really ridiculously desirable early-game trinity, and you can go Vehumet to get a big blast right about when you need it. Having a mid-tier blast spell is really one of the only reasons to even bother choosing one of the other conjurations-focused backgrounds.


It definitely wasn't. Ice Elementalist is the best background by far; Freeze is the most powerful early game spell, Throw Frost holds value well into the Lair, Throw Icicle lasts incredibly well for the entire game and is superior to IMB (which in turn is now inferior to Stone Arrow), Ozocubu's Armour is an excellent way to branch into Charms, and Freezing Cloud makes Elf:1-5 look like a complete joke. Ice Elementalist > old Wizard.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 06:00

Re: Wizards

OneTrueFelid wrote:It definitely wasn't. Ice Elementalist is the best background by far; Freeze is the most powerful early game spell, Throw Frost holds value well into the Lair, Throw Icicle lasts incredibly well for the entire game and is superior to IMB (which in turn is now inferior to Stone Arrow), Ozocubu's Armour is an excellent way to branch into Charms, and Freezing Cloud makes Elf:1-5 look like a complete joke. Ice Elementalist > old Wizard.


Ice elementalists are obviously good, but they don't start with Blink and Mephitic Cloud.

Throw Frost and Ozocubu's Armor were also on the wizard list.

Freezing Cloud was irrelevant because you would almost always find it or something similar long before you could reliably cast something of that level anyway.

Throw Icicle may be the best resistance-piercing spell of that level, but Vehumet's bounty comes in shortly afterward, and it is close enough that the difference doesn't matter much.

Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 06:08

Re: Wizards

Blink is not necessary in the early game with proper play using Freeze and Throw Frost, which eliminates everything short of Grinder and Ice Beasts with ease. Mephitic Cloud is a fantastic early game spell but loses its punch in the middlegame due to the HD check. It's difficult to keep things like Death Yaks reliably confused before they move out of your cloud, while cannon fodder like Yaks/Komodo Dragons/Gila Monsters are easily handled by the above combination of Freeze/Throw Frost. Freezing Cloud is not irrelevant. It completely and utterly crushes the Hive and Elven Halls, even moreso than Poisonous Cloud. After that, it still retains value, but the main attraction is that it completely obviates most issues in the Elven Halls.

Throw Icicle is the best level four spell, period. It will still be a powerful tool up until the moment where you get the orb in your hands and the only thing that matters is fleeing the dungeon as quickly as possible. Vehumet is an okay god, sure, but I prefer him infinitely more on summoners, which in turn I prefer Kikubaaqudgha for. I'm not sure what you mean by "Vehumet's bounty" and "difference doesn't matter much", though. Could you explain that in more detail?

Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 14:53

Re: Wizards

OneTrueFelid wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by "Vehumet's bounty" and "difference doesn't matter much", though. Could you explain that in more detail?

Mystic Blast is close enough in damage to throw icicle so in most cases it doesn't matter, which one you use.

Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 15:04

Re: Wizards

3d20 (Throw Icicle) vs. 2d28 (Iskenderun's Mystic Blast) vs. 3d11 (Stone Arrow, 1 MP less!) is not exactly close. :P Throw Icicle will deal more damage than IMB against neutral targets, way more against weak targets, and about the same or a little less to resistant targets. That, and you start with Throw Icicle. It's not close.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 15:52

Re: Wizards

I'm using IMB and it blows a lot of stuff up pretty good. "About the same or a little less" to resistant targets is a bit of a stretch, no? They do "about the same" to neutral targets (28.5 vs 31.5).

Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 15:57

Re: Wizards

Maybe. I enjoyed a lot more success, particularly in the late game, with Throw Icicle than IMB, particularly because so little resists it there. The real question, though (since your class is just your starting package) is whether Wizard is a better start than Ice Elementalist. Ice Elementalist is just better. :(

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 16:22

Re: Wizards

OneTrueFelid wrote:Blink is not necessary in the early game with proper play using Freeze and Throw Frost, which eliminates everything short of Grinder and Ice Beasts with ease.


Blink is one of the most cost-effective spells in the game, for the entirety of the game. Without teleport control, it makes you virtually immune to melee against anything that isn't both faster and extremely durable, and with teleport control it nearly guarantees safe evacuation from every single threat in the game, at least outside of branch ends that block it.

OneTrueFelid wrote:Mephitic Cloud is a fantastic early game spell but loses its punch in the middlegame due to the HD check. It's difficult to keep things like Death Yaks reliably confused before they move out of your cloud, while cannon fodder like Yaks/Komodo Dragons/Gila Monsters are easily handled by the above combination of Freeze/Throw Frost.


Mephitic Cloud is well-known as one of the most overpowered early-game spells, and that HD check will not be its last nerf. The fact that it eventually becomes amnesia-fodder is irrelevant when proper use is very nearly an express ticket to Lair. The early game is the most difficult part of the game, and Mephitic Cloud trivializes it.

OneTrueFelid wrote:Freezing Cloud is not irrelevant. It completely and utterly crushes the Hive


That's not actually remotely impressive.

OneTrueFelid wrote:and Elven Halls, even moreso than Poisonous Cloud. After that, it still retains value, but the main attraction is that it completely obviates most issues in the Elven Halls.


You should have no trouble finding Freezing Cloud or something approximately as good for that purpose on some spellbook long before you enter the Elven Halls. Therefore, its presence in a starting spellbook is irrelevant.

OneTrueFelid wrote:Throw Icicle is the best level four spell, period. It will still be a powerful tool up until the moment where you get the orb in your hands and the only thing that matters is fleeing the dungeon as quickly as possible.


Good, certainly. Best level 4 direct damage spell? Probably. Sufficiently better than Mystic Blast that it's worth giving up Blink in the bargain as well? Utility spells are awesome, and usually there's absolutely nothing that can possibly replace them. Direct damage will be available regardless what choices you make.

OneTrueFelid wrote:Vehumet is an okay god, sure, but I prefer him infinitely more on summoners, which in turn I prefer Kikubaaqudgha for. I'm not sure what you mean by "Vehumet's bounty" and "difference doesn't matter much", though. Could you explain that in more detail?


Vehumet's spellbook gifts are strictly predictable, and they reliably start arriving at the same point in every game. This will be Lair 1 or 2 as long as you don't dawdle. With the utility spells in the wizard's starting spellbook, you should be set until Zot at the very least. The RNG cannot screw with you.

Vehumet also has one of the best sets of passives in the game. MP-for-kills is the best mp-recovery method in the game, and the range extension would allow your ice caster to one-shot enemy casters, hellfire-users, and some torment-users at the edge of your line-of-sight without giving them any opportunity to take an action, all with a single casting of a hungerless spell. The wizardry bonus also gives you accelerated access to the post-endgame infinity+1 spells.

Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 17:09

Re: Wizards

In that same vein of argument, Freeze and Throw Frost combined are an express ticket to the Lair and beyond. Blink is cost-effective, yes, but also common enough and not necessary to clear most of the game. You can't base your argument off of having CtrlTele, which is a rare ring or less-rare (but also less cost-effective in the early game!) spell. You don't need to avoid melee threats, because Freeze makes them all a joke early on.

Mephitic Cloud trivializing the Lair is not a good argument when Freeze/Throw Frost/Throw Icicle easily do so and the last retains its value throughout the entire game. Again, things that you truly want to confuse are annoying to hit with the check whereas Throw Icicle proactively handles the threat in a few casts. Things that you don't want to really confuse, like a swarm of Green Rats, drop without any difficulty to Freeze.

Freezing Cloud, on the other hand, is powerful enough to take out everything from Elf:1-5. Yes, Poisonous Cloud and Ozocubu's Refrigeration and other spells handle the Hive with ease, but starting with the ability to cash in on all that food is no joke. On top of that, eliminating Elf:1-5 puts a veritable trove of books, staves, and jewelry into your hands - enough to find Blink and other lategame staples!

I would argue that if its a reliable spellbook progression that you are aiming for, Kikubaaqudgha is a superior god for a non-Necromancer. Necromancy is easily one of the best schools in the game, and the addition of Dispel Undead, Regeneration, and (if desired) Vampiric Draining to your repertoire is a boon that can't be ignored. Resistance to Torment and Sublimation of Blood are also extremely desirable. Sublimation, Sif channeling, and Makhleb HP+MP for kills are all superior to Vehumet at recuperation of mana in a dire situation. The wizardry bonus does not really matter when you are utilizing most low level spells to great effect.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 17:11

Re: Wizards

Wizard is great... unless you have to explore the dungeon to it's 13th floor with only Throw Flame (because you just can't get any other offensive spells for some reason), then you might have a bit of a rough time. :D

Regardless of that, I say Wizard vs IE debate is kind of pointless.

Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 17:40

Re: Wizards

pratamawirya wrote:Wizard is great... unless you have to explore the dungeon to it's 13th floor with only Throw Flame (because you just can't get any other offensive spells for some reason), then you might have a bit of a rough time. :D

Regardless of that, I say Wizard vs IE debate is kind of pointless.

Ditto. You both have a point, but really, discussing AE vs EE or Wiz vs IE is, like...

Meh.

Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 19:21

Re: Wizards

Then again IMB has got a great accuracy, which probably makes up for it's lower power. Also, the difference between 3d20 and 2d28 is really not that high.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 19:33

Re: Wizards

Yeah, I don't see the point of the argument. Do you want to make the other person play a different background?

Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 20:58

Re: Wizards

I disagree with his assertion that Wizards (even old Wizard, which I rank highly amongst the ranks of casters) are the best conjuration-based class. I'm arguing the point because I (along with several other players, elliptic, xyblor, evilmike, casmith789, and more) believe that Ice Elementalist is the best start, period. Actually, IMB does not have absurdly high accuracy like many people believe. It's just about average, last time I talked to elliptic.

Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 24th February 2011, 05:04

Re: Wizards

I think this is a just a matter of preferred playstyle. With the holy trifecta of mephitic cloud, blink, and repel missiles, you can afford to make a whole lot of mistakes because you almost always have a reliable escape. Meanwhile with an ice elementalist, you've got the direct damage spells and ozo's. It's conducive to damage dealing, but let's just say that ozo's is neither blink nor repel missiles.

Me, I prefer wizards because all too often I find myself in a disadvantageous position of my own choosing. Playing a wizard with all those utility spells lets me soften the blow of those bad tactics. Meanwhile, ice elementalist might be "more powerful", but it's also suited to more competent play. You really can't afford to misjudge your situation when you play an ice elementalist.

Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 24th February 2011, 12:42

Re: Wizards

That, I'd agree with. Wizards are a fantastic class for utility and the ability to soften the blow of a mistake.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 24th February 2011, 13:32

Re: Wizards

OneTrueFelid wrote:In that same vein of argument, Freeze and Throw Frost combined are an express ticket to the Lair and beyond.


Wait, you're comparing Freeze + Throw Frost to Mephitic Cloud? You're really going with that?

Am I getting trolled here? Throw Icicle at least has the stopping power you need to get to Lair, and once you get it there should be smooth sailing ahead. But Freeze and Throw Frost, really?

OneTrueFelid wrote:Freezing Cloud, on the other hand, is powerful enough to take out everything from Elf:1-5. Yes, Poisonous Cloud and Ozocubu's Refrigeration and other spells handle the Hive with ease, but starting with the ability to cash in on all that food is no joke.


I do not care even the tiniest bit about your ability to own Hive super-hard. Hive is a ridiculously easy branch for when it appears, and I'm struggling simply to rationalize why you would use Hive in your argument, and the very fact that you seem to think I should care has the unfortunate effect of making me even more suspicious of any other comments you make. I routinely have pure casters train fighting in Hive, because it's still easy and the extra hp always helps.

OneTrueFelid wrote:I would argue that if its a reliable spellbook progression that you are aiming for, Kikubaaqudgha is a superior god for a non-Necromancer.


Too specialized. Necromancy is an odd patchwork of wildly different effects, but it has some massive holes. No way to wipe out groups of monsters at a time, for instance, and no way to deal with the progressively-more-common demons.

OneTrueFelid wrote:Sublimation, Sif channeling, and Makhleb HP+MP for kills are all superior to Vehumet at recuperation of mana in a dire situation.


I'd suggest you try taking a Vehumet caster into the post-endgame and see if you still think this opinion holds up. Casting Fire Storm and ending up with more mp than you started with is must more efficient for killing things than spending turns gaining mp instead of killing things.

OneTrueFelid wrote:The wizardry bonus does not really matter when you are utilizing most low level spells to great effect.


The Vehumet wizard I'm currently using has Fire Storm AND Tornado at excellent. Also hungerless. I have not yet reached Zot. They would not be castable at all without Vehumet, at least not without sacrificing Controlled Blink.

whelen wrote:I think this is a just a matter of preferred playstyle. With the holy trifecta of mephitic cloud, blink, and repel missiles, you can afford to make a whole lot of mistakes because you almost always have a reliable escape. Meanwhile with an ice elementalist, you've got the direct damage spells and ozo's. It's conducive to damage dealing, but let's just say that ozo's is neither blink nor repel missiles.

Me, I prefer wizards because all too often I find myself in a disadvantageous position of my own choosing. Playing a wizard with all those utility spells lets me soften the blow of those bad tactics. Meanwhile, ice elementalist might be "more powerful", but it's also suited to more competent play. You really can't afford to misjudge your situation when you play an ice elementalist.


No, I don't agree with your position. Once you get an ice elementalist going, you need to cast Throw Icicle at maximum range and then mash ` until it dies. Run away if you won't kill it before it reaches you. Playing a wizard is much more delicate because you're still using a low-level popgun until you can find the books.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 24th February 2011, 14:35

Re: Wizards

"Your opinion is wrong."
"No, your opinion is wrong."

This is a silly argument. Wizards are good and Ice Elementalists are good and the caster gods are good and can't we all just get along.

Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 24th February 2011, 14:45

Re: Wizards

I made my point and I stand by it. Or them, rather.

Yes, Freeze holds up to Mephitic Cloud in the early game. Why? Because it's a one mana spell that is reliably cast at Excellent before you even touch a god and that can never miss while dealing large amounts of damage that is rarely resisted at that level. Throw Frost is regularly capable of killing things like Blink/Spiny Frogs and Yaks that it's not worth it to waste the MP on with Throw Icicle.

Fine. Remove the Hive entirely. Just look at the Elven Halls. It's nice. It has loot. Freezing Cloud will get you that loot.

Haunt is a spell that is easily capable of winning you the game on its own. I have the logs to prove it. Would you mind posting your logs of your caster that has Fire Storm and Tornado at Excellent without ever touching Zot? How long did you have to run through Pan for it?

Also, elliptic has brought to my attention that Makhleb HP+MP on kills is the exact same in the code as Vehumet's, so I withdraw that statement. It's still pretty boss with things like Ozocubu's Refrigeration, though.

Previously mentioned Haunt logs:
Sludge Elf Assassin of Kikubaaqudgha, done for last year's Nemelex Award during the Crawl tournament. Classic Pain weapon/Hauntomancer type.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/NyaaK ... 235653.txt

Centaur Stalker of Kikubaaqudgha, the new crappy stalker in 0.8. That one's for you, casmith. :P Go Kiku indeed.
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/n ... 181154.txt

Mummy Warper of Kikubaaqudgha -> Yredelemnul scum -> Ashenzari. This one doesn't entirely count considering I scummed over fifteen Yredelemnul wraths, but I did kill the Royal Jelly with only Haunt. Fun times!
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/n ... 185958.txt

Yeah. Necromancy is bad at killing multiple things. Reaaaaaal bad.

o.o; I already agreed that it's probably a matter of playstyle and I'm being silly. He's just such a cocksure... stuff. D: Go get greatplayer already.

EDIT: Whoops. Talked it over with eith and agreed it's not worth it to argue with you. :( Silly debate over, I guess.

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 24th February 2011, 15:38

Re: Wizards

This is going into another level of silliness indeed.

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