Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!


Although the central place for this kind of discussion is on the CDO wiki, some may find it helpful to discuss potential requests and suggestions here first.

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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 18:56

Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

I suggest modifying the Warper class so that ogres (and trolls, if anyone ever tries it) gets large rocks instead of darts.

I just noticed that Og and Tr Hunters get large rocks. If that is the missile weapon they prefer, then that's what I think they should get as warpers.

Warper is potentially a good class for ogres - it takes advantage of their spellcasting ability to provide a way to preserve their vulnerable, non-armoured HP - but darts just seem a little weak, and my OgWr's all die early ignominious deaths.

Plus, I just think using Portal Projectile to drop boulders on things is a really hilarious idea.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 19:19

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

But making OgHu and TrHu attractive options is not an important design goal. Making species-appropriate adjustments to backgrounds is.

If that makes warpers more attractive than hunters for ogres, so be it.

For trolls, I don't think I would necessarily try to get into spellcasting, I'd still prefer hunters. Ogre Warpers though should be better than Ogre hunters as it relies on two skills in which they actually have good aptitudes: throwing and spellcasting. And gods forbid Ogres actually have an easy time with something...

I guess this would be pretty easy to try in wizard mode.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 19:23

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

I LOVE WIZARD MODE!

I just made 5 +9 large rocks of returning! Bwua hah hah!

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 20:04

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

I'm with minmay.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 21:43

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

minmay wrote:The only reason people play ogre and troll hunters right now is to get the large rocks. Give them to warpers and there's no longer enough incentive to play hunters. Even a single +0 large rock is too much.


Isn't that kind of like saying, if both hunters and marcane arksmen get bows, there's no point to hunters because everyone will go for the class that gets bows + spellcasting?

Because I believe that both do get bows, and yet if anything arcane marksmen get neglected.

Each background stands on its own. If a certain combination is unattractive, that just means that that is not as good a build for that species. This currently happens all over the place.

If an OgWr with large rocks would be overpowered, then that's an argument. But just saying that it would be better than a background that is not as good isn't really saying anything. You could just as easily argue that all the other backgrounds make wanderers unattractive, so all other backgrounds should be gotten rid of or nerfed.

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 22:00

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

By ordinary logic, ogre/troll hunters would get sling and stones. Because it was considered more fun and also more interesting, we opted for large rocks instead. If you demand equal opportunity, I'd rather downgrade them to stones than give OgAM and TrAM large rocks.

Hunter is the "pure" background for shooting things. Arcane Marksman is the magically inclined version. The former should obviously be better at something than the latter. (Compare melee and hybrid backgrounds.) As I see it, OgAM has the potential to prepare magic from the start, which is very good for ogres (flexibility). They have the potential to make good use of large rocks as soon as they find them. On the other hand, OgHu has good early survivalability, since their starting rocks make excellent problem solvers.

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 22:11

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

minmay wrote:[...]it's about one background always being better than the other. Just as there's basically no incentive to pick a hunter over an arcane marksman if you're a species that would get bows, there would be basically no incentive to pick a hunter over a warper if you're a species that would get large rocks.

Yes. The AM background somehow came upon us, and backgrounds are not really dangerous global design-wise, so we added it. If it proves to be a burden, we'll just drop it again (rather than hunter, I think).
However, there should be some chance to make both backgrounds meaningful, even assuming same starting launcher. (It would always be an option to make all AM's start with sling and stones.) For example, we have:
  • Starting HP.
  • Number and quality of ammunition.
  • Hunter could get a few ego ammunition items, as emergency item.
  • Quality of launcher.
  • Better starting gear (armour) for Hunter.
Perhaps you have more ideas?
I like how danr has a knack to hit interesting questions, even if the original proposal is out of the question. Thanks mate!
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Slime Squisher

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 22:15

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

Being able to more accurately smite large rocks from the get go would be pretty powerful against a lot of early game enemies, especially for pesky orc priests (Orc go SPLAT!! HA HA HA HAA!!). Whether it's overpowered or not, I don't know, but I think it's close.

{edit} Dang this ADD nonsense, it causes ninjitis. Maybe there is a drug for this, too?
Human kind cannot bear very much reality.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 22:25

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

Simply giving the hunters more/better ammo than the warper would do the trick wouldn't it? 5 +1 large rocks is a very far cry from a single +0 rock. And it's not like you're going to be apporting the damned things back to you any time soon. Large rocks could be made heavier as well to reinforce this, since it's pretty much a non issue for anything other than apportation, Ogres and Trolls having obscene carrying capacity anyways and nobody else having a use for rocks.

I don't think I'd pick OgWr over OgHu all the time if it had say, 2 or 3 plain large rocks. I'd probably say 2 since even 2 can last a very long while if you find some early weapon enchant scrolls. 5 +1 rocks is easily going to last you long enough to find some kind of spellbook on the other hand, and it's not like translocation is the bestest school ever for ogres or trolls.

And keep in mind, the difference between 5 and 1 rocks isn't just how long they last before they all break; that's also the difference between taking out 3 wizards/priests or taking out just one, or possibly even missing your throw or having it roll poor damage, and having to run away to retrieve the rock much later. And neither Ogres nor Trolls are exactly rolling in awesome caster stats early on, so it's probably going to be easier to train casting after you can splat some Yaks and ogres for real xp anyways, not while you're killing rats. There's a lot of reasons hunters will be more attractive than warpers for ogres and trolls.

Edit: After checknig in Wizard mode, they can even have penalties apparently. You could give them a single -9 rock if you thought rocks were so overpowering.

Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 22:49

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

minmay wrote:it's about one background always being better than the other. Just as there's basically no incentive to pick a hunter over an arcane marksman if you're a species that would get bows,


Well, unless one wants to pick up Trog for his ranged character and suddenly AMs aren't always better.

Stormlock wrote:Large rocks could be made heavier as well to reinforce this, since it's pretty much a non issue for anything other than apportation, Ogres and Trolls having obscene carrying capacity anyways and nobody else having a use for rocks.


Heavier large rocks = more running back and forth to replenish the ammo (and it's not like trolls and ogres can carry an obscene amount of them without getting burdened - by midgame it's just a few before it's "stashing stuff decision time") = annoying for very little gain.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 23:02

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

After playing with -9 large rocks, I can confidently say they aren't exactly overwhelmingly powerful. Or even useful at all. Took me 9 throws before I hit a megabat, and then it didn't even die. With 5 in casting and translocations, I couldn't apport one of them, and portal projectile still misses.

Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 23:27

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

minmay wrote:
zasvid wrote:Well, unless one wants to pick up Trog for his ranged character and suddenly AMs aren't always better.

Trog doesn't care that you have spells memorized, just that you don't memorize or cast more. The advantage a human hunter has over a human AM is one point of enchantment on their arrows, a leather armor instead of a robe, one more HP (and one less MP), and that's it.


...and also a substantially higher combat skill levels, whereas the arcane marksman would lose half of his skills if he were to choose Trog.
Last edited by zasvid on Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.

Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 22nd February 2011, 23:58

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

Hunters should definitely get trap & doors if player made traps will be ever implemented. It would be thematic and nice.

Also, I don't understand why hunters got dodging and fighting, they don't need to fight with their prey, they shoot it from afar... and why their stealth is so low? Wizards have higher stealth then hunters.. pfff... Hunter must be stealthy, or he is a hungry hunter... They should get at least 3 in stealth, take it from dodging\fighting or even ranged skill

and yes, more arrows\bolts\bullets, they should be able to concentrate on ranged combat without early game luck. Throwers don't have that problem, so they shouldn't get more rocks
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Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 04:12

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

I'd definitely support more and better arrows for hunters. Currently they burn through too quickly to actually allow them to be the primary combat school. When I play hunters it's halfings for a number of reasons but a big one being how easy it is to find ammo.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Wednesday, 23rd February 2011, 10:54

Re: Ogre Warper proposal: give 'em rocks!

Me and danr talked a while ago about ways to make AM really stand out. I liked a lot of those ideas, and I think they'd still be good, especially now that the idea of "AM always > hunters cause they're the same" has come about.

Also, danr: This thread should help you realize that, unfortunately, there's never going to be a 100% on-topic discussion. I know it's frustrating, but sometimes other things have to be discussed first before the idea can be accepted or rejected.

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