Makhleb CKs?

[Wolfechu]

So, looking at trunk, I see we have death knights, abyssal knights, and chaos knights for Xom. All fine and peachy, but are we losing Makhleb as a starting god choice?

(Yes, I know it's trunk, and they might just not have gone in yet. I'm just curious what the plan is there...)

[MrMisterMonkey]

they're gone
As I see it, there are too many starting gods and Makhleb wasn't defining enough to stay.
They cut TSO starts, too, but I doubt as many people will be upset about that.
(I agree on both accounts)

[vintermann]

They cut TSO starts, too, but I doubt as many people will be upset about that.

I am. Just because TSO is good for the late game and more challenging in the early game, doesn't mean we all have to play him like that. But since the Paladin's perk (falchion) has been given to anyone (and indeed is a no-brainer to choose for most builds), I suppose the ideal "knight" class wasn't distinguished enough anymore.

[MrMisterMonkey]

1) only fighters and gladiators get falchions now
2) TSO itself offers very little in the early game (and while a paladin may have thematic strength, it didn't really offer enough to distinguish itself), and basing a religious class primarily around something aside from the religion (falchion) is bad design

[mageykun]

They cut paladins? Aw, that's too bad. I kinda like them as a challenge class- since you're forced to start following restrictive conducts from d1. It's also flavorful!

In general though, decreasing the number of starting gods is probably a good thing. Right now I view TSO altars as useless- if I'd wanted him, Ida started with him. Same for the rest of the starters. Double useless for Beogh- why wait all the way till orc:4 to start getting piety? You already cut up your best source of free minions to get there! Possible exception for Trog- he's so useful, even characters that I don't initially intend to be 'zerkers may go his way.

[danr]

Neat. Checking out the latest version, here are the changes I see, based on starting Humans in these classes.

- Chaos Knights are now just for Xom. Makes sense, Xom pwns Chaos. They get a bit of a buff with +2 leather armour and an extra level of fighting (4). Stats are 12/12/12.
- Abyssal Knights are the Lugonu CK. They still get a +2 weapon as well. Stats are 12/12/12. They also get 2 levels in invocations.
- Death Knights are back. They worship Yredemnul. +2 weapon. Stats are 13/11/12. 3 levels in invocations.
- Priests (not sure if this is new) all start with Zin. 5 levels in invocations. Quarterstaff.

I think I agree with removing Makhleb as a starting god. He's so good for almost any build that he makes waiting until the temple worthwhile.

Interesting thought experiment though - I often chose CK more for the +2 weapon than anything else. What about a background that just didn't get a god at all but did get a +2 weapon? This is just the CK Makhleb nerfed by making them wait to find Makhleb.

Hm, this gives me a new idea, off to start a new topic!

[galehar]

- Priests (not sure if this is new) all start with Zin. 5 levels in invocations. Quarterstaff.

HO can still worship Beogh of course.

[szanth]

This post has made me finally download the newest Trunk version and ditch .7; I'd already had .8, but it was before the Okawaru/monk/priest changes. I likes it.

[Lugh]

Only problem, of course, is that the classic Deep Dwarf CK of Makhleb start is now gone. Oh well, I'll just have to zap myself with the wand until I find an altar.

[danr]

I've usually started my DDCKs as DDNes anyway, and taken on Makhleb at the altar. That way you get Vampiric draining plus Makhleb's healing.

Also, for the record, Trog's Hand also regenerates DDs HP.

Do HO priests get a choice of Zin or Beogh, or are they now automatically Beoghites?

[mad]

I tried to play one recently and they gave the choice, but Beogh was a recommended (highlighted) choice.

[pratamawirya]

Nice!