Vaults Vanquisher
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Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Vaults Vanquisher
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Vestibule Violator
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Vaults Vanquisher
Posts: 476
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Vestibule Violator
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Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:52
minmay wrote:danr wrote:And if one is going to make staves available, monks are the most natural background for it.
Why do you keep saying this? You insist that monks should have staves, and in preference to other backgrounds getting staves, but you have yet to give a reason for it that isn't "monks have staves, duh." Sort of like starting hunters with caps - it makes sense, sure, but does it really do anything for gameplay?
(Hint: a good reason to try for the preference over fighters would be "monks don't have shields.")
Vestibule Violator
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Vestibule Violator
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Ziggurat Zagger
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minmay wrote:Warpers should lose their starting melee weapon entirely.
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Mines Malingerer
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minmay wrote:KoboldLord wrote:How do you propose warpers survive until they do find their first weapon, then? They have no offensive abilities in their starting spellbook, and darts mulch. Forcing them to reload until a weapon generates in their starting room is bad design.
They'll lose their weapon skill with their weapon, which means they get more XP for other skills. And we're talking about a background that starts with 20 +1 darts, 5 +0 darts of dispersal, a scroll of blinking, and capacity to cast Blink at XL2 - they're not exactly short on escape options.
I just started a wizard mode human warper, changed my 3 Long Blades to 3 Unarmed Combat, dropped my falchion on turn 1, and had at it. I beat D:1 effortlessly, without even using a weapon or darts.
However, I don't think they should get high unarmed combat skill either. So I started again, dropped my falchion on turn 1, didn't change any skills, and had at it. I further decided that I would only use D:1 trash items: unbranded clubs, unbranded daggers, unbranded knives, and starting equipment. First weapon I wielded was a cursed club. I cleared D:1 without incident, I only used two dispersal darts, and never used a single potion or scroll.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Vaults Vanquisher
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Mines Malingerer
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KoboldLord wrote:Tell you what. You two can get back to me on how successful you are clearing orc packs, ogres, and/or uniques on D3 after you waste your limited supply of consumable darts on routine D1 monsters, and have to bootstrap whatever weapon skill you settle on from scratch. If optimal play with 0-aptitude character can't get you reliably past the early game, there is a problem.
If guaranteed access to a particular utility spellbook is so good that you'd seriously consider taking a character that starts with no reusable offensive abilities to get it, then that spellbook should probably be expunged from the game entirely, because it's too good.
Dungeon Master
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Vaults Vanquisher
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Vaults Vanquisher
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Halls Hopper
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Halls Hopper
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minmay wrote:GermanJoey wrote:It seem to me that adding more starting weapons is treating the symptom of the problem, rather than directly addressing the actual problem.Y'all are getting worked up because you consider the choice in starting weapon very important for a character's long term strategy, right? Well, to a certain extent, that's true, its optimal play in terms that it requires the least XP expenditure to have a competent melee attack. However, to me, sticking with your starting weapon-class in ignorance of all others shouldn't be ideal - a roguelike is supposed to be about using whatever you find in the dungeon to help you survive and fight your way to the bottom. Ignoring anything that's not a war axe or broad axe just because you started with a hand axe and a buckler means ignoring something like 95% of the other weapons generated in the dungeon.
It's never been optimal to do that. If you start with a mace, find a double sword on D:5, and don't switch, you're not playing optimally. The motivation for giving fighters staves is simply that they should have the option to start with any weapon school; it's the same reason 0.8 fighters can start with long blades whereas previously only paladins could.
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