I'm thinking of making a roguelike

[IronJelly]

As the title says, I'm going to attempt to make a roguelike game. I posted this in CYC because I must be crazy to be considering such an endeavor. I've been teaching myself Java since the beginning of the year, and I thought this would be a fun way to put together, and put into practice the various concepts I've learned, but never really used for anything. While it will likely be a one-man operation for most of it's life, and I'm not expecting to reach anywhere near the popularity of the various roguelikes I play, I could use any advice anyone has on how to get going.

I have been torn between a few concepts, and I think I settled on one. I'm going to make a roguelike based loosely on the game Shank. I sort of figure there are just enough weapons to be interesting, and I have ideas for how to implement them. Unlike the Shank games, I figure ammo will be a consumable resource, and you'll have to rely much more on the melee weapons, which will each have unique properties to make them different and interesting. In my basic story, Shank has to climb a radio tower of some number of levels to stop the big baddie at the top from broadcasting some secret of Shank's to the world which would make Shank's life a lot shorter. It needs details, but I thought at least it would make a basic story to get the hero into the game. My plan is for the final game to have shank start with only the shanks, and pick up the weapons in a random order as he progresses.

So, having no clue how to begin this, I read up on some of the 7drl stories, and I have a basic progression mapped out, I think. Each topic would be gone through in order, with me making sure each question is answered to a satisfactory degree. Bear in mind, that while I've been considering this for a while, I literally haven't started or even written one line of code for this project yet.

1) Start basic. Can I get a blank level on screen at the size I want? Can I get a player's "@" to display? Can I get it to move with certain keys? What should the basic controls be?
2) Messages. if the player can move to certain places, can I get a display to show the appropriate message? what events should trigger messages?
3) Other entities. Can I get something in place that would block the player's movement? Can I make it move? Can I make it move with regard to where the player is?
4) Walls. Can I make a level generate with them? Can I make a randomized map with them? Can I make them into boxes for rooms?
5) Stats. Can the player have HP? Can it be displayed? Can the enemies have HP? How can the player know how much the enemy has? Can the player reduce enemy HP, and vice-versa?
6) Weapons. How can they be used to modify how the player deals damage (I have a lot of ideas here)? Can the enemies use them too?
7) Scorekeeping and the Endgame. Which things should I keep track of? How and when should I display these? What happens when the player dies?
8) The Boss. Since this is going to have one, how will I handle it? Is it possible to win? to lose?

I have no idea if I missed anything, but that totally makes the whole project look reasonable. I'm a little intimidated by the scope that would need to go into even making a very basic roguelike simulation where the player can move and hit enemies, let alone do more, but I also think I have the potential to make something really cool from this.

I've been having some trouble with Java that I'm hoping to overcome through this project. As a web developer for almost 10 years now, I'm so used to inline script-style programming (it's NOT scripting), that I'm really having problems getting my brain to think in Object Oriented Programming concepts.

Of course the code won't be efficient, and will probably have many kludges and faults, but I'm genuinely excited to give this a try. So um... any advice? Even if you have no experience with something like this, I'll read what you have to say, and the Tavern will totally be the first place I post drafts as I go.

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

I think if you want to develop an independent game, you should ask this question where people who develop independent games can be found!
The TIGsource forum would be a nice place to start. Search for something on Seven Day Roguelike competitions, read through the newbie section, and ask your question. I believe your answers are already hidden somewhere there.

And: perhaps you might even want to grab sources of a few already existing roguelikes (including sevendayers) and study them from inside out. Many game developers started by making mods, hacks or even reverse-engineering something.

[XuaXua]

Might want to start with coding the game mechanics first and transform that into an accessible library.

[Moose]

I once began writing a roguelike, and good pretty far into the engine, and had a workable architecture.

Then I discovered crawl, and realized that this game (crawl) has pretty much distilled off everything that sucks about roguelikes, and has left behind a near-perfect game. That being said, I thought, "Why would I waste my time with another game, when I could devote my development effort toward the best game out there, and make it better?"

I've yet to contribute a line of code to Crawl, mainly because I don't know C++.

[IronJelly]

I once began writing a roguelike, and good pretty far into the engine, and had a workable architecture.

Then I discovered crawl, and realized that this game (crawl) has pretty much distilled off everything that sucks about roguelikes, and has left behind a near-perfect game. That being said, I thought, "Why would I waste my time with another game, when I could devote my development effort toward the best game out there, and make it better?"

I've yet to contribute a line of code to Crawl, mainly because I don't know C++.

I pretty much agree, but in this case, I was considering seeing how I did since before I really got into DCSS, and there's no reason NOT to see how well my studying has been going by trying it. If I fail, or things don't work, I can look into the pitfalls now and only improve over time. Sure, I will be going in knowing I can not rival DCSS, or even independent projects, at least at first. But this is along-term project and goal that is more about me learning my way around a real Java project than it is about making a game or making it fun or anything of the like.

From there, I might make a better one in the future, or maybe contribute to something, or just not touch it again, but know that I improved myself in the process.

I think if you want to develop an independent game, you should ask this question where people who develop independent games can be found!
The TIGsource forum would be a nice place to start. Search for something on Seven Day Rougelike competitions, read through the newbie section, and ask your question. I believe your answers are already hidden somewhere there.

And: perhaps you might even want to grab sources of a few already existing rougelikes (including sevendayers) and study them from inside out. Many game developers started by making mods, hacks or even reverse-engineering something.

And I didn't even think of actually opening up a 7drl and seeing what the maker of it did. that's a really good idea, and worth looking into before starting, I think. Thanks.

[spacewolf009]

If you haven't already, I've found a lot of articles at RogueBasin to be very useful. An extensive list of articles covering a wide range of roguelike topics can be found here:http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php/Articles

[Grimm]

You've already picked a theme but if you change your mind may I suggest a superhero roguelike, of which there is a distinct lack.

[IronJelly]

You've already picked a theme but if you change your mind may I suggest a superhero roguelike, of which there is a distinct lack.

I strongly considered just that, but as a HERO system player, I would lament the lack of options, or get so lost making options that the game wouldn't actually ever get made.

[Grimm]

That's exactly the system I had in mind. What a joy it would be to point-design your own super. Thing is, you could start simple, with just a few power choices, get the engine working, then maybe people would join in and help expand it.

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

Strong through Special Powers, Strong through Help of Somebody, Strong through Help of Yourself (Superman, Poison Ivy, Batman).

[Pteriforever]

I've tried making a roguelike. Twice, even. Once to prove I could make one and one to prove I could make a good one. I haven't done anything to it in over two months because I'm so lazy, and I have a nagging feeling that it'll fall apart if I add too much stuff to it.

It's hard, because they're just huge complex things.

[IronJelly]

That's exactly the system I had in mind. What a joy it would be to point-design your own super. Thing is, you could start simple, with just a few power choices, get the engine working, then maybe people would join in and help expand it.

That might be a lot of fun, truthfully.

Did you play the PC game Freedom Force? I was thinking I would base the superhero point system loosely on that game's character creation. I figure that all the powers are built like legos. you choose from lists for it's properties, and then a point cost is calculated.

for example, you can choose:
targeting: melee, ranged line, ranged cone, direct (what would be smite based targeting to us over here), self.
damage type: none, crush, pierce, fire, frost, electric, radiation
effect: none, heal, slow, haste, damage-over-time, freeze, increase stat, decrease stat, explode-on-death, drain MP, etc.)
damage strength (scale from 1 to 100%)
effect strength (scale from 1 to 100)
speed (scale from maybe 1 to 10)
cooldown (scale from 0 to maybe 500 turns)
chargeup (scale from 0 to 10 turns)
Mana/Energy Cost (scale from 0 to 100)

and a few other choice power effects. Each of those things has a cost multiplier involved, so the greater any selection is, the more points the power. But here's the catch - since it's leveling up and a roguelike, instead of HERO system style building your points UP for the power you want, you have a limit of points per level, and have to choose how to make your power fit those points. maybe your first level power is only 400 points, but by XL 20, you're picking up 2000 point powers (the numbers were pulled from my butt, i have no idea how I would scale it).

I have some strong ideas how I would handle certain concepts in such a system, and it would always be a tough choice between resistances and survivability or more damage. What I would do is make the game an undetermined number of "levels" consisting of various themed roguelike-floors, with a "villain" at the end, before you start a newly themed set. In this way, resistances couldn't really be anticipated beforehand, and you would be subject to luck of the draw.

I really, have like a 3500 word document at home with my various brain-droppings about how I would handle a HERO System Roguelike, if you happen to be interested in a few problems and solutions I thought of already. I figured for my first foray into this type of game programming, I would start smaller, see what works, what doesn't, what limitations the language I'm using has, and from there, if I move into the bigger project, I can borrow heavily from the first one, for the things that won't change, like level display and movement.

[Grimm]

My concept is somewhat different, laying more emphasis on the superhero than on the roguelike. I envision the game as being a sort of pocket world where your hero can build a base and travel around to different cities or even planets on various missions. As he levels up he can do things like acquire a sidekick, or perhaps a team. More concepts here viewtopic.php?p=34425#p34425

Your power design system is definitely interesting but how would it mesh with other types of powers, such as Batman-type martial artists, or plant powers, that sort of thing?

[IronJelly]

I have ideas for that too. Truthfully, this was my pipe-dream of what Champions Online should have been. Freedom Force online. or at least Customize-more-than-just-your-appearance-Online.

As for gadgetry, that's the point of HERO. And it worked just as well in Freedom Force's character editor. If I wanted to throw a Batarang, or a fireball, both started as ranged attacks, and had options piled on to make them what you wanted. Once you know it's a ranged attack, you decide things like: damage type, accuracy, damage scale, secondary effect, your launch/throw animation, what the projectile looks like, if it has an area-effect explosion or not, is it homing or not, and some other options, each adding or subtracting from the power's point cost. The same is true of melee attacks, a martial artists thousand-fists-of-fury attack starts off as a basic melee attack, the same as the ice hero's frozen-fist-punch, or the helpless citizen's weak punch. The idea was that two characters made of similar point should be roughly similar in capability in non-specialized situations. Of course, it never came to that, with players learning to min/max (that happens in any game) but it wasn't too far off the mark.

[Grimm]

I think this would be a fantastic game.

[IronJelly]

So this isn't dead yet, even if it's a long ways away.

I've been fooling around online with some tutorials and various Java roguelike libraries. One of them got me through a very very basic beginning, where there is an @ on screen controlled vua hjklyubn, and a random cave is generated. It's not much, and the ASCII display library this guy uses is ugly compared to DCSS, but i managed to impress myself with how much of what the tutorial discussed that I actually understood.

At the end of the month (when I have money, essentially), I think I'm going to get a URL for this project. That, or I'll look into putting something on Sourceforge. I'm unsure where this is going to go yet. So far, it's a lot more internal monologue saved carelessly as unpublished drafts on my website than it is any programming, but I have a good idea how I'm going to handle several situations that I thought before might be an issue, and I learned a lot this week about working with files, which means now the game will be able to have a save option.

By the way, thanks for the tigsource link. I've been reading a bit about generating (slightly) less random levels. Things like rooms and what not, similar to some of DCSS's levels.

[Grimm]

I can't code but if you need ideas for a supers game I am full of them.

[Confidence Interval]

Will I be able to play as Super Gran?

[IronJelly]

I can't code but if you need ideas for a supers game I am full of them.

Ideas are always good. I've been posting thoughts about this on my blog, but mostly as drafts for myself to read. This weekend, I'll organize my thoughts and publish them. Feedback, other ideas, it's all always welcome.

Will I be able to play as Super Gran?

Actually, that's precisely how I plan to decide on what power-features to add. I figure that once the game is playable, I'll ask for a few random existing characters to be named, then see if I can make a reasonable facsimile of them or not.

That reminds me of one of my Champions online characters. Granny Smashem was a little old schoolteacher who developed super-strength. She grabbed a paid of meat-tenderizers (maces) and proceeded to show the younger generation what a true hero of yesteryear was made of. Unfortunately, she died a violent death to some of the Westside gangs in Millennium City, and I stopped playing her for a while.

But I'm an altaholic in those games, and the awesome character creator only exacervated the problem. I had 20 character slots, and most of them were under level 15, because I only made them to try out a few powers and make a kick-ass costume. Probably my most popular was GURDY the huge, fat ineffective demon lord of hugs and puppies, who ran around in his underwear judging Costume Contests and demanding hugs from both genders of contestants.

[Grimm]

Will I be able to play as Super Gran?

I'm going to suggest Bananaman, the Legion of Substitute Heroes, and the immortal Ambush Bug.

Joking aside, I would favor a game that like Crawl would permit a wide variety of playstyles, from silly heroes to galaxy-beaters

exacervated the problem

This means "made the problem more deerlike" right?

[IronJelly]

Will I be able to play as Super Gran?

I'm going to suggest Bananaman, the Legion of Substitute Heroes, and the immortal Ambush Bug.

Joking aside, I would favor a game that like Crawl would permit a wide variety of playstyles, from silly heroes to galaxy-beaters

exacervated the problem

This means "made the problem more deerlike" right?

I made up a word that sounded good, and I'm sticking by it, despite there being no definition at dictionary.com. If it means deerlike, than so be it. I almost posted with 'excavated.'

[JeffQyzt]

...I almost posted with 'excavated.'

In the sense of 'digging oneself deeper', right?

[silentlamb]

My advice:
The less you talk about what you're going to do (or plan it) and the more actual doing it will increase your chances of creating something playable or even finishing a game. Why? Because when you talk, you're excited. You imagine thousands of situation you will encounter in your game. And it's fun (not in DF meaning). But then goes transforming these images into the lines of code, and after a while it stops being fun.

This is psychology and it's very brutal.

[Grimm]

Will I be able to play as Super Gran?

I just watched an episode of this. Not even Spike Milligan was able to save it.

[Confidence Interval]

Will I be able to play as Super Gran?

I just watched an episode of this. Not even Spike Milligan was able to save it.

I remember Iain Cuthbertson being good as Scunner Campbell, though admittedly this is based on a vague childhood memory.

[Grimm]

As a Scot you ought to be outraged at the totally racist portrayal of Scunner Campbell!!!

[Confidence Interval]

As a Scot you ought to be outraged at the totally racist portrayal of Scunner Campbell!!!

Yes, but Super Gran is also a Scot and she's a superhero, so it balances out. And I'm not sure it counts as racism when it's other Scottish people doing the stereotyping, just as it's not uncommon for members of ethnic groups to address each other using terms they would not find it acceptable for other people to use.

[Grimm]

Good points. It's like when Crawl players call each other "Sigmund's breakfast", or "my Sigga".

[Confidence Interval]

In Soviet Russia, *you* eat *Sigmund*!

[Grimm]

In Soviet Russia, racist caricature of Scot is offended by YOU!

[Confidence Interval]

I'm pretty much indifferentiable from Groundskeeper Willie.

[Grimm]

Is it true then that nothing can stop a greased Scotsman?

[Confidence Interval]

Ever tried to stop one?

[Grimm]

I've never even seen one.

[Confidence Interval]

I'd post the pictures but people would probably wish I hadn't.

[Grimm]

That's the proverbial wisdom of the Scots shining through.

[Confidence Interval]

Are you sure you're not thinking of the Irish? Or the Jews? Or the Mountain Dwarves?

[Grimm]

In Soviet Russia, Mountain Dwarf thinks of YOU!

[Confidence Interval]

In Soviet Russia (which no longer exists), Mountain Dwarves still exist!

[Grimm]

In Soviet Scotland, Soviet Russia still exists for YOU!

[Confidence Interval]

The post-2014 independent Scotland is run by local Soviets (in at least one version of reality).

[Grimm]

Scotland will be free to join the euro!

[Confidence Interval]

Sounds like the Darien Scheme all over again...

[Grimm]

My new history fact for the day. Fascinating. "The Darien company was backed by about a quarter of the money circulating in Scotland."

[Confidence Interval]

Scotland coulda been a contender, it coulda been somebody...

[Grimm]

Scotland could have been as great as the Duchy of Courland and Semigallia.

[Confidence Interval]

That is certainly my new history fact of the day.

[Grimm]

Just imagine if they'd been successful. You could be opposing proposed Crawl terminology on the basis of it being a "Courlandianism".

[Confidence Interval]

What's up with those Semigallians?! They think they're better than us just because of the size of their empire!

[Grimm]

You're not anti-Semigallic are you?