new potion idea - MIXTURE


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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 31st May 2012, 23:05

new potion idea - MIXTURE

My idea to Crawl is to add the special type of potion, called "MIXTURE".

MIXTURE is a type of a potion (often find along killed orc priests), or, to be more precise - a mixture of three random potions. Drinking it gives three absolutely random effects, so you never know what will be inside (it may contain anything). It`s simply three random potions, mixed in one flask. So, when you find a MIXTURE, you risk that there will be three potions of degeneration (deadly stuff), or a strong potion + potion of confusion + potion of mutation (rather unpleseant combo). Or there might be two potions of heal wounds + one potion of berserk rage.. or any other, "good" or "bad" combination.
MIXTURES should generally appear with some priests (like Orcs) or wizard`s inventory.

Of course, probability of appearing any of the potions in a MIXTURE is just as the same as probability of appearing ordinary potions in the dungeon; gain dexterity potion appears more frequently than potion of agility; potion of poison appears more often than potion of strong poison, etc. But the MIXTURES itself should appear rather rarely on the dungeon (at least on the upper levels).

When you`ll identify MIXTURE (as one of the existing types of the potions), that doesn`t mean you know what`s inside: contents of MIXTURE is each and every time given randomly. You can, however, use a scroll of identify on a mixture to take a look what`s inside (or at least partially, to see one or two potions inside); Ashenzari help you with identifying that stuff. But, generally, if you have several MIXTURES in your backpack, you`d have to use the same amount of scrolls of identify, so identifying them would be a waste of these scrolls (this works somehow similarly to identifying cards). On the other side, drinking a MIXTURE without knowledge of the content is always somehow risky.

Idea of adding MIXTURES to DC: every time you use a potion in Dungeon Crawl, you do this to gain exact effect, unless you just identify them simply by drinking on the beginning of the game; the MIXTURE adds a factor or randomization to the game: it may seen, that three potions in one flask is "a lot", but it is compensated by its randomness, and, what`s related to that, it`s being useless in most situations when you`re desperately in need for exact potions (like heal wounds potion in the middle of the fight). And being generally risky...

Xom loves when you`re drinking MIXTURES (and sometimes gives you one to drink, or even swaps "ordinary" potions in your backpack into "mixed" ones).

As there are 29 possible potions in the game, there are 29^3=24389 possible combinations of each MIXTURE (although probability of getting gain dexterity + gain strenght + gain intelligence combo would be VERY small, as these potions normally appear very rarely in the game; you would sooner get poison + speed + mutation or some combo containing good and bad stuff).
Last edited by adamo901 on Thursday, 31st May 2012, 23:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Thursday, 31st May 2012, 23:25

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

There's already a risky potion that gives unidentified random good or bad effects. What does MIXTURE add to the game that's currently lacking?
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 31st May 2012, 23:38

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

There's already a risky potion that gives unidentified random good or bad effects.

DC wiki should be edited then:
http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?t ... of_potions

What does MIXTURE add to the game that's currently lacking?

A MIXTURE contains three randomly generated potions, which can be (partially or interety) identyfied by the prize of scroll of identify. Adds a huge factor of randomization.

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Post Thursday, 31st May 2012, 23:40

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

In fact the potion that nicolae was referring to is already on that list of potions!
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 31st May 2012, 23:45

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

wchich one?

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Post Thursday, 31st May 2012, 23:46

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

adamo901 wrote:A MIXTURE contains three randomly generated potions, which can be (partially or interety) identyfied by the prize of scroll of identify. Adds a huge factor of randomization.


Let me rephrase: why does the game need a MIXTURE potion which simply replicates the effects of drinking three existing potions? There are already random-effect consumables -- decks of cards, wands of random effect, and potions of mutation -- and only the wand replicates effects that can be entirely gotten elsewhere.

If there were a potion that generated a random tactical, short-term effect -- as opposed to mutation, which generates a random strategic, long-term effect -- it should at the very least have a list of effects you can't get from other potions.

adamo901 wrote:wchich one?


Mutation.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 31st May 2012, 23:47

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

I would never, ever quaff this potion, ever ever. What if it's Mut? The potential benefit of a Heal is not worth risking a Mut. Or curing a really good Mut like blinking.
(p.s. this is stupid some dev please make it not stupid) - minmay

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Post Thursday, 31st May 2012, 23:54

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

While somewhat amusing, it's just not practical. It's basically a sparkling fountain * 3 that you can carry around, and no one drinks those.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 31st May 2012, 23:58

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

Yes, but I thought of a random mix of three random potions, not just a potion of mutation, but every one possible, depending on it`s probability of appereance normally in the game. Potion of mutation might be one of them in the mix, but not necessarily: one could meet three potions of heal wounds, for example.
Quaffing this (random) mix would be risky, if somebody likes to risk and is aware of possible existence of bad stuff, or worship Xom, it`s his business.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 1st June 2012, 00:02

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

It's basically a sparkling fountain * 3 that you can carry around

But the idea is that it could be identified using scroll of identifying (or Ashenzari`s help), so there`s always a chance that there will be something usefull (or not) in the mix.
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Post Friday, 1st June 2012, 00:12

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

I wonder if what adam is trying to get at is adding a "unique" potion that, even if identified once, stays globally unidentified until all other potions are identified; sort of how I always expected scrolls of random effects to work (I never thought they should stack) in order to screw with the identification mini-game.
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Post Friday, 1st June 2012, 00:20

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

adamo901 wrote:Quaffing this (random) mix would be risky, if somebody likes to risk and is aware of possible existence of bad stuff, or worship Xom, it`s his business.


Why would anyone bother picking up a MIXTURE in the first place, when they'll find plenty of curing and heal wounds soon enough? Curing and heal wounds are already guaranteed to work, after all, and you don't have to waste an ID scroll checking every single heal wounds potion you want to slam down.

Randomness is useful because it helps the game stop being predictable, but randomness for the sake of randomness is more often than not just annoying. See Nethack, for instance: in Nethack, doors don't necessary open on the first try, and it might take several tries to get a door open. What does this add to the game? Pretty much nothing. True, every once in a great while, you might have a cinematically tense moment as you're trying to get away from a monster and the door just won't open, like you're in a horror movie and the slasher is coming for you. But 99% of the time, doors getting stuck just makes exploring levels a pain in the ass. Likewise with a Mixture potion - yes, true, on rare occasions there might be some poor bastard who's caught in a bad spot, and is down to their last potion, and they have to decide whether they want to chug the mystery mixture or try a risky escape. But 99% of the time, the player is just going to carry around known potions and not even get themselves into that situation.

Looking at the statistics, incidentally, over half the three-drink combinations include at least one of the absolutely bad potions (confusion, decay, degeneration, paralysis, slowing, poison, and strong poison), and that doesn't take into account situationally bad potions, like berserk rage, cure mutation, mutation, blood, and so on. This isn't exactly over 50% odds, since the potions don't have equal chances of being used, and it doesn't take into account getting confusion and then curing in the same quaff. But with those odds, is it worth the risk to get something that you can absolutely get from a safer source? For a lot of people, Xom isn't worth the risk, and Xom at least does things for you (or to you) that you can't get anywhere else.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 1st June 2012, 01:26

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

I wonder if what adam is trying to get at is adding a "unique" potion that, even if identified once, stays globally unidentified until all other potions are identified; sort of how I always expected scrolls of random effects to work (I never thought they should stack) in order to screw with the identification mini-game.


What I meant was adding another potion to the game: a potion, that would give you each and every time three random effects of every other potion. You get different (random) combinations of effects each time.
When you drink a mixture potion that doesn`t mean you know its content; you just generally identified it as a mixture, but still don`t know the content of every single one, because it is given randomly each time. You can, however, waste scrolls of identify to one at the time, but using scrolls of identify is not worth it. You generally have to drink it to see the results. Of course, there should be some warnings before, like "Really quaff a mixture? It could be anything inside!".

BTW, to prevent quaffing it (by the mistake) on the beginning of the game by the people who don`t want to experiment with that kind of stuff, it might be just simply described as a "mixture", so that one could avoid it like sparkling fountains, if he just don`t want to use it. It`s just an in-game addition, that wouldn`t interfere with anything (unless the probability of appearance of potions in the mixture comparing to the "usual" ones is not changed much).

Randomness is useful because it helps the game stop being predictable, but randomness for the sake of randomness is more often than not just annoying. See Nethack, for instance: in Nethack, doors don't necessary open on the first try, and it might take several tries to get a door open. What does this add to the game? Pretty much nothing.


Contrary to a door in Nethack, you might just ignore the mixtures if you don`t want to deal with them.
If you`re seeking for gold and don`t afraid the risk, you may quaff the mixture, knowing that it may contain a decay/mutation, but may also contain potion of experience along with some other good stuff. Nobody is forced to quaff these mixtures. This is just for the people, who likes to risk. Remember that quaffing potions of mutations is risky in several ways, too, and some people do it. Some does, some doesn`t. In some situations (not necessarily during the combat!), if I were out of "regular" potions, I would quaff it.

-----------------------------------

What I wanted to achieve by adding mixture was the kind of uncertainty in the mid or late game, when all - or almost all - types of potions are identified, so you almost always know, what you`re drinking. A mixture could again give you the chance to expect "potion surprizes"; of course, quaffing this during the combat would be really, really last anchorage, when you`re out of anything, (since you can get paralysis for example), but normally it could be used sort of like potions of mutation (might get randomly good or bad stuff).

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Post Friday, 1st June 2012, 01:58

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

adamo901 wrote:What I meant was adding another potion to the game: a potion, that would give you each and every time three random effects of every other potion. You get different (random) combinations of effects each time.

Yes, you've said that. We understand the idea you're suggesting - we just don't think it's very good.

This is just for the people, who likes to risk. Remember that quaffing potions of mutations is risky in several ways, too, and some people do it.

That's because there are beneficial effects that you can only get by getting mutated. Other than the gain strength/intelligence/dexterity mutations, there's no way to guarantee a specific good mutation. If you want those good mutations, you have to take a risk. Gambling with mutation potions isn't simply risk for the sake of being risky - it's risk for the sake of getting something good you can't get anywhere else. Your mixture idea isn't like that, because it only gives you effects that you can get from some other source much more easily.

It's like going to the casino and placing a bet on the chance you might win a soda from the vending machine. Why would anyone bother? The vending machines are right there and they give you a soda every time.

If I want to get a +10% HP mutation, or slow metabolism, or some other good mutation, I have to take a risk by quaffing a potion of mutation.

If I want to heal my wounds or restore my abilities, I wouldn't have to take a risk by quaffing a mixture potion, because I can just drink a potion of heal wounds or restore abilities with no risk at all.

This is why I keep saying that the only way a random effects potion would be any good is if the effects you get from it are special, and not simply copies of all the existing potions. Like, say, transmuting you into a random form, or a single-use random breath weapon.

What I wanted to achieve by adding mixture was the kind of uncertainty in the mid or late game, when all - or almost all - types of potions are identified, so you almost always know, what you`re drinking.


There's no need for everything to be uncertain during the entire game. The mid and late game have plenty of uncertainties to consider, but they're less focused on consumables and more on, say, what branches to do, or what artifacts will be found, or what uniques you'll run into.

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Post Friday, 1st June 2012, 02:09

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

No one would ever quaff such a potion once they figure out what a sucker's bet it is. Quaffing one in safe conditions would be overwhelmingly likely to be a meaningless waste of time, and almost every other result would leave you worse off than you started. Quaffing one in unsafe conditions would be borderline suicidal behavior.

Generally speaking, a feature needs to be useful in some situation. Mutation potions, at the very least, have a chance to eliminate a crippling mutation if you're struggling with slow movement or berserkitis or something. The proposed feature doesn't have any use except punishing newbies who don't understand how the potion works. Useful potions are most often emergency items that have no use outside of a narrowly-defined set of emergencies.
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Post Friday, 1st June 2012, 07:20

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

welcome adamo901
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Halls Hopper

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Post Sunday, 3rd June 2012, 15:06

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

Welcome Twelve!

...ok - so maybe it was better if the percentage of appearance of certain potions was rearranged?
Like, the "good" results were much more prevailing over the "bad" ones?
If you still think it`s not good idea - I won`t urge on that - case closed ;)

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Post Sunday, 3rd June 2012, 15:24

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

Given the assumption that a player who intended to use these things would do it in a safe place, at full health, and with potions of curing on-hand, the only potion effects that could possibly be relevant would be mutation, cure mutation, and experience. Most distributions of those three effects makes them too similar to regular mutation potions, which you stockpile in hopes of drinking off a particularly crippling mutation if you end up with slow movement or blurry vision or something.
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Post Sunday, 3rd June 2012, 17:59

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

this is a "bad" idea and i "don't" "like" it "."
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Post Sunday, 3rd June 2012, 20:11

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

Would be pretty cool as a player castable spell... Ghetto "crafting". Combine any 2 or 3 potions into 1. Not sure if it would be OP, but it would allow players to carry more potions... I'm sure I'm not the only one that dumps a lot of potions... Maybe you don't want to carry Might and Agility because you're at the point where improvements to stats don't make a huge difference... You could make !{Speed+Might+Agility} and quaff it in one quick turn prior to a fight... Or !{Speed+Lev+Heal Wounds} for escape. Or combine with Evaporate to make even more retardedly OP clouds !{Confuse+Miasma+Strong Poison} anyone?
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Post Sunday, 3rd June 2012, 21:32

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

bobross419 wrote:Would be pretty cool as a player castable spell... Ghetto "crafting". Combine any 2 or 3 potions into 1. Not sure if it would be OP, but it would allow players to carry more potions... I'm sure I'm not the only one that dumps a lot of potions... Maybe you don't want to carry Might and Agility because you're at the point where improvements to stats don't make a huge difference... You could make !{Speed+Might+Agility} and quaff it in one quick turn prior to a fight... Or !{Speed+Lev+Heal Wounds} for escape. Or combine with Evaporate to make even more retardedly OP clouds !{Confuse+Miasma+Strong Poison} anyone?

That's a lot like combining fruit to save space or putting charges from one wand on to another of the same type, which won't be done.
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Post Sunday, 3rd June 2012, 23:21

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

Wait what's wrong with combining fruit
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Post Monday, 4th June 2012, 00:39

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

minmay wrote:And what's wrong with just drinking three potions, again?


It takes 3x as long. Was just an idea that I was throwing out there. I'm sure it could be abusable, but thought about it in relation to the thread about poison spells. Quaffing !{HWx3} could be the difference between life and death and some nasty concoctions could be thought up for evaporation as well. Also, Mutation Roulette becomes even more fun!
KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room

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Post Monday, 4th June 2012, 01:26

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

It's worth noting that the old (awesome) gold god proposal has an ability much like this, though without the unexpected results; "Potion Petition" lets the worshiper gives the user a bunch of sets of potions, and lets them pick one.

The proposal as written is unquaffable, but that doesn't mean the idea is bad; just mix up the effect list until it's good. Crawl has a deficit of genuinely useful random effects; the wand can be good in certain circumstances but quickly becomes useless, and the scroll is (as far as I know) always useless (hence the name). I don't think it's quite compelling enough, though; potions and potion-like effects just aren't interesting enough unless you add something extra into the mix.

And stop whining about !Mut you babies.
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Post Monday, 4th June 2012, 01:35

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

One-Eyed Jack wrote:Wait what's wrong with combining fruit

Fruit is inviolate. :P

bobross419 wrote:
minmay wrote:And what's wrong with just drinking three potions, again?

It takes 3x as long. Was just an idea that I was throwing out there. I'm sure it could be abusable, but thought about it in relation to the thread about poison spells. Quaffing !{HWx3} could be the difference between life and death and some nasty concoctions could be thought up for evaporation as well. Also, Mutation Roulette becomes even more fun!

There's a reason we don't have blessed potions of greater heal wounds. You're not supposed to have easy access to that much free healing (Go invest in necro. Or Ely. Or Neme. Etc). And evaporate is already very good- hardly in need of a buff.

While alchemical mixing isn't on the won't do List, cooking and containers are. Wasting safe turns improving consumables isn't what we want, nor is giving people ways to conserve slots by mashing things together.

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Post Monday, 4th June 2012, 15:45

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

nrook wrote:the wand can be good in certain circumstances but quickly becomes useless

This is getting OT, but: /RE is a cheap way to heal post-endgame rot (in a safe place!). Why waste /HW charges when you don't have to?
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Post Monday, 4th June 2012, 17:53

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

It's also good for digging in a pinch.
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Post Wednesday, 6th June 2012, 16:24

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

- about potions mixed together by a player to quaff it in one turn -
There's a reason we don't have blessed potions of greater heal wounds. You're not supposed to have easy access to that much free healing (Go invest in necro. Or Ely. Or Neme. Etc). And evaporate is already very good- hardly in need of a buff.

It could be somehow compensated: for example by the spell difficulty, or by the high factor of a spell failure (like if you were trying to make an "escape mix" (Speed+Lev+Heal Wounds): either get your mix, either failed - you get for example (Speed+Lev+Rot) mix instead*, which means the loss of the potions (no risk, no fun!).

* - for example: you cast a mixture spell to mix three potions together: there`s a 33% chance for every of your potions in the mix that it will be swapped with something else, no matter if it`s good or bad (you get Rot instead of Heal Wounds, Poison instead of speed or Invicibility instead of Lev... etc.). Knowing that you failed, you don`t have to quaff it - you can just throw it away.
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Post Wednesday, 6th June 2012, 22:08

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

my god
Your warning level: [CLASSIFIED]

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Post Wednesday, 6th June 2012, 22:31

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

my idea, is to add smilies to crawl. u can use them when you type notes, so that you dont have to read the annotation just it says smile, or a frown. it will be alot esier for every one. what do u think.
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Post Wednesday, 6th June 2012, 22:37

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

adamo901 wrote:- about potions mixed together by a player to quaff it in one turn -
There's a reason we don't have blessed potions of greater heal wounds. You're not supposed to have easy access to that much free healing (Go invest in necro. Or Ely. Or Neme. Etc). And evaporate is already very good- hardly in need of a buff.

It could be somehow compensated: for example by the spell difficulty, or by the high factor of a spell failure (like if you were trying to make an "escape mix" (Speed+Lev+Heal Wounds): either get your mix, either failed - you get for example (Speed+Lev+Rot) mix instead*, which means the loss of the potions (no risk, no fun!).

* - for example: you cast a mixture spell to mix three potions together: there`s a 33% chance for every of your potions in the mix that it will be swapped with something else, no matter if it`s good or bad (you get Rot instead of Heal Wounds, Poison instead of speed or Invicibility instead of Lev... etc.). Knowing that you failed, you don`t have to quaff it - you can just throw it away.


That's an awful lot of work to fix up an idea no one else likes.
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Post Thursday, 7th June 2012, 00:18

Re: new potion idea - MIXTURE

Agree with nicolae... The combinations thing was just an idea that popped in there that I threw out there.
KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room

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