Darts of Dispersal~


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Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 7th December 2011, 23:03

Darts of Dispersal~

Best use for these? I somehow have 99!
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 01:45

Re: Darts of Dispersal~

They're not useful for doing damage, and as they have a 100% mulch rate they're not worth enchanting.

What they are good for is when something is standing right next to you, and you don't want it to. Useful in situations where you're either trying to keep something out of melee while you kill or disable it at range, or if you're running from something- especially if you need to get up the stairs without your pursuer coming with you. Also useful in corridors if the wrong thing is standing next to you (for instance, an orc warrior is blocking your access to the priest you really wanna kill before he smites you to death).

They're a good, cheap, irresistible (so long as you don't miss) escape option for all kinds of roles.

Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 02:39

Re: Darts of Dispersal~

You do have to at least deal 1 damage with them in order for them to blink things now, so they're a bit less completely-irresistible-against-anything-forever. Should still be pretty great if you're playing a Warper and started with a bunch of them.

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Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2011, 14:26

Re: Darts of Dispersal~

Ah, that answers all my questions. I had figured that they were used for dispersing (thanks minmay, I would never have known!) but they seemed to hardly ever actually work.

If you have to deal at least 1 damage with them it explains it, though, since sometimes they did hit but nothing happened.

What level skill in Throwing do you suppose I would need to hit reliably?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 22nd May 2012, 21:34

Re: Darts of Dispersal

I just added the following to the inconsistencies page of the dev wiki:

Movement via Ranged Dispersal Usage

Players hit by a dispersal-branded projectile launched from a monster appear to move via blink rules from the player perspective. They can blink out of sight of the launching monster.

Monsters hit by a dispersal-branded projectile launched from a player appear to move via blink rules from a combined monster / player perspective. That is, they never blink out of sight, and they sometimes blink to areas they couldn't possibly see.

- - -

I need help proving the validity of this. I created darts of dispersal in wizmode and am throwing them and it appears to be true. If so, then I think the effect against monsters actually reduces the utility of a dispersal missile.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 22nd May 2012, 22:07

Re: Darts of Dispersal~

out of sheer curiosity, having never really played with darts of dispersal:

1) can you target yourself with one?
2) can you or an enemy be blinked into lava/deep water?

There should totally be an option for vault makers to use dispersal-dart traps. it could make for a wickedly obnoxious Xom Altar vault.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Tuesday, 22nd May 2012, 22:41

Re: Darts of Dispersal~

IronJelly wrote:1) can you target yourself with one?

The effect is the same as firing a dart at yourself.

2) can you or an enemy be blinked into lava/deep water?

Blinks aren't supposed to be directly fatal, although rapidly expiring levitation can mess this up over water, I think.

There should totally be an option for vault makers to use dispersal-dart traps. it could make for a wickedly obnoxious Xom Altar vault.

I like. No idea how to code that in a vault though.

@XuaXua: Darts of dispersal don't move enemies out of LOS. They're a tool for rearranging a tactical layout and/or getting space between you and an enemy. Not a tool for preventing ranged attacks (well, unless you blink your attacker behind plants or other monsters and it can't smite or penetrate).

Monster use of dod is just to drive melee characters crazy. :p
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Tuesday, 22nd May 2012, 23:53

Re: Darts of Dispersal~

IronJelly wrote:There should totally be an option for vault makers to use dispersal-dart traps. it could make for a wickedly obnoxious Xom Altar vault.


The problem with dispersal dart traps is that if you disarm them, you'll get a huge stack of dispersal darts.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 23rd May 2012, 01:44

Re: Darts of Dispersal~

mageykun wrote:
@XuaXua: Darts of dispersal don't move enemies out of LOS. They're a tool for rearranging a tactical layout and/or getting space between you and an enemy. Not a tool for preventing ranged attacks (well, unless you blink your attacker behind plants or other monsters and it can't smite or penetrate).

Monster use of dod is just to drive melee characters crazy. :p


Thanks; granted, I was going for the confirmation of inconsistent behavior.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 23rd May 2012, 09:20

Re: Darts of Dispersal

XuaXua wrote:Players hit by a dispersal-branded projectile launched from a monster appear to move via blink rules from the player perspective. They can blink out of sight of the launching monster.

Monsters hit by a dispersal-branded projectile launched from a player appear to move via blink rules from a combined monster / player perspective. That is, they never blink out of sight, and they sometimes blink to areas they couldn't possibly see.

I confirm the behaviour, and it seems to be intentional. mageykun's explanation makes sense. So, you can classify it as yet another voluntary player/monster asymmetry.

mageykun wrote:
2) can you or an enemy be blinked into lava/deep water?

Blinks aren't supposed to be directly fatal, although rapidly expiring levitation can mess this up over water, I think.

No, blink will put you over deadly terrain only if permanently immune to it (merfolk, octopode, tengu, boots of levitation). You cannot blink over deep water with a temporary flying effect.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 25th May 2012, 22:04

Re: Darts of Dispersal

galehar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Players hit by a dispersal-branded projectile launched from a monster appear to move via blink rules from the player perspective. They can blink out of sight of the launching monster.

Monsters hit by a dispersal-branded projectile launched from a player appear to move via blink rules from a combined monster / player perspective. That is, they never blink out of sight, and they sometimes blink to areas they couldn't possibly see.

I confirm the behaviour, and it seems to be intentional. mageykun's explanation makes sense..


The explanation does make some form of sense, but it isn't apparent to unspoiled players.
An unspoiled player is hit by a dart of dispersal, he is potentially thrown backwards down his corridor, moving out of line-of-sight of the thrower.
Unspoiled player recognizes the effect as a local blink (meaning, can be moved anywhere within own line of sight).
Player acquires darts of dispersal and starts throwing them at targets.
Targets are only moved within player line of sight.

The current actions of dispersal missiles against targets appear counter to the desired outcome of the dart thrower (attacker).

Targets hit by player are moved based on "attacker line of sight". This is the current result of a player action.
Targets hit by monster are moved by "target line of sight". This is the current result of a monster action.

Based on current AI, the incentive of the majority of attacking monsters is not necessarily to screw with the player, but to reduce distance between himself and the player to incite melee (generally the most effective attack).
Under current rules, "target line of sight", a monster throwing dispersal might potentially move the player away from him, out of line of sight, which gives the player an escape advantage (and as a side-effect screws with the player).
If this was changed to "attacker line of sight", it would assuredly bring the player towards the attacker.

Under current rules, a player with darts of dispersal might use them on an adjacent monster to try to move them away from himself, but loses much potential range since destination is restricted to the player line of sight. This gives a reduced escape advantage vs. throwing darts using "target line of sight".
Under current rules, a player targeting a monster at range would only serve to bring that target closer to melee at it's restricted to "player line of sight", rather than move it away. This is only advantageous to attackers with short range offensive attacks; and not useful to attackers who which to disengage combat.

It's my opinion that both should be moved to "target line of sight" for consistency, or the discrepancy should be explained in the description for dispersal, if it isn't already (I haven't checked).
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Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 26th May 2012, 15:24

Re: Darts of Dispersal

XuaXua wrote:Targets hit by player are moved based on "attacker line of sight". This is the current result of a player action.
Targets hit by monster are moved by "target line of sight". This is the current result of a monster action.

It's worse than that. Any actor hit by dispersal can only be blinked in LOS of the player. Which means that if a monster use them on another monster at the other end of the map, they just won't work.
I agree that this should probably be changed to a normal blink for simplicity and consistency. It would be a buff to an already powerful brand though. Darts got nerfed a bit some time ago (need to deal damage to blink), so maybe it's ok.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 26th May 2012, 22:25

Re: Darts of Dispersal

galehar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Targets hit by player are moved based on "attacker line of sight". This is the current result of a player action.
Targets hit by monster are moved by "target line of sight". This is the current result of a monster action.

It's worse than that. Any actor hit by dispersal can only be blinked in LOS of the player. Which means that if a monster use them on another monster at the other end of the map, they just won't work.
I agree that this should probably be changed to a normal blink for simplicity and consistency. It would be a buff to an already powerful brand though. Darts got nerfed a bit some time ago (need to deal damage to blink), so maybe it's ok.


Transforming it into a standard blink "target line of sight" is a buff to those avoiding melee; the potential to send the target further away is increased. It is a slight penalty to those currently relying on the dispersal brand for melee purposes, as the "attacker line of sight" increases probability the target will be brought within melee distance.

Adding a slight penalty (an unbuff), targets (or just monsters) blinking from dispersal could make a noise on appearance (or just the sight of them appearing), which could alert monsters in vicinity (or l-o-s of the appearing monster). A monster sent out of l-o-s due to a dispersal could potentially come back with friends.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 27th May 2012, 02:35

Re: Darts of Dispersal~

Can you hit yourself with these darts?
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 27th May 2012, 04:29

Re: Darts of Dispersal~

No.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Sunday, 27th May 2012, 04:30

Re: Darts of Dispersal~

I really think you're over-thinking this. Yes, there's imperfect player/monster symmetry. But players, and the game, have a player centric mindset anyways. It's fairly intuitive that you blink relative to you, and force them to blink relative to you. Who stops to think about what the monster's LOS is?

But whatever. I'm not going to complain about an edge case buff.

glyphic wrote:Can you hit yourself with these darts?

I already answered that up the thread a bit. I'll be more specific this time: Yes, you can shoot yourself. But you won't blink. You'll just take the damage.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 27th May 2012, 04:44

Re: Darts of Dispersal~

mageykun wrote:I really think you're over-thinking this. Yes, there's imperfect player/monster symmetry. But players, and the game, have a player centric mindset anyways. It's fairly intuitive that you blink relative to you, and force them to blink relative to you. Who stops to think about what the monster's LOS is?

But whatever. I'm not going to complain about an edge case buff.


I don't stop and think about the monster's LOS. I expect a dart thrown at a dangerous entity at the edge of my vision to hopefully throw it even further away from me.

Using Player LOS, if the monster is at the edge of vision, the monster will always come closer.
Using Target LOS, if the monster is at the edge of vision, the chance is quite reduced that the monster will arrive adjacent to the thrower.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
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