Rename Alligator Snapping Turtle

[XuaXua]

While I understand it's an alligator snapping turtle, I think that having the initial adjective the name of a completely different monster that appears in the game to be confusing and possibly dangerous, especially considering that snapping turtles (alligator or not) have a reaching attack and alligators do not.

I state this for the sake of zombies and skeletons of these creatures, which are not well-distinguished.

[XuaXua]

Also having just died from one which I thought was an alligator.

[Blade]

"Rename orc warlords because they're more dangerous than orc warriors and they could be confused."

...no. Just no. If you can't see the difference between two monsters and/or don't bother to check, the death is completely your fault. It's not a problem with the game.

[Deimos]

Alligator Snapping Turtle? Wow, that would get me too, considering we have both Alligators and Snapping Turtles. While I understand Blade's point, that's still an odd name choice considering its almost garunteed to get mixed up with one of the other two animals that share its name.

[mageykun]

So the argument is- it's cool that it's named for a real thing, but then again, has the potential for confusion.

Renaming is trivial though, and we've renamed a lot of things in recent versions, so why not?

Aggressive Snapping Turtle, Blue Nosed Snapping Turtle, Dire Snapping Turtle, Giant Snapping Turtle, Spiny Snapping Turtle, Spiked Snapping Turtle, Hundred Year Snapping Turtle, Deep Sea Snapping Turtle, Prehistoric Snapping Turtle, and so on and so on.

Interestingly, the bots entry seems incomplete! The description just drops off mid-sentence. Hrm. Does it do that in game?

[XuaXua]

If there was an ignore button, I'm certain Blade and I would have clicked it on each other by now.

I'm sure if the Usability Team made this comment, it'd be fine, but because it's me, you gotta p!ss all over it.

I didn't have to make the second post, but I felt that I'd admit to my mistake, having been tricked into ignoring the AST by dismissing it with a mere glance at the name. That, there, is the distinct difference between orc (three characters short) and alligator (9 characters long) as preceding adjectives; you're more likely to notice the second word with an orc. And considering the visual non-difference between the skeletal versions of the turtles and alligators (not really a problem, but understandable), it has the potential for confusion.

It's nearly the same problem that brought me to this board in the first place: the tile for death ooze could easily be mistaken for the tile for regular old gray ooze. And I resolved that one myself.

And mageykun is correct regarding the summary of the argument.

Suggestions on the alteration:
Don't use Giant as an adjective; already have enough things with that as both adjective and noun (Giant Ant, Stone Giant, etc.)
"Snapping Turtle" is, in itself, long enough. The AST's tile looks like a spiked version of the ST's tile.

I like Spiked Turtle or making it "fantastical" like Ankyloturtle (because it looks like an ankylosaurus with that spiked back) could work, but I think something a bit more deadly-sounding to emphasize the "step up" from already super-dangerous snapping turtle could work.

[Blade]

If there was an ignore button, I'm certain Blade and I would have clicked it on each other by now.

iirc if you click the "Add foe" button it will allow you to ignore my responses to your pointless posts.

Won't stop me making them, though.

(on-topic note: while a renaming may be reasonable, your given reasons were terrible)
(edit: oh, also, there's no way I would ever ignore you. Responding is much more fun)

[galehar]

So the argument is- it's cool that it's named for a real thing, but then again, has the potential for confusion.

argument against: it's the name of a real thing only in the US

[mindlar]

I remember the first time I ran into one and immediately thought "oh, scarier snapping turtle... kill it fast"

[njvack]

I'm with XuaXua on this one; I remember being confused by this. It's a snapping turtle and has nothing in common with alligators. Pretty much any adjective other than "Alligator" would be better.

Having faced actual an American Alligator Snapping Turtles in melee, I can vouch that the Crawl version completely unlike the real animal anyhow.

[roctavian]

+1 to rename it American Alligator Snapping Turtle.

In all seriousness, the Alligator Snapping Turtle and Snapping Turtle could be merged, as the difference between them isn't that interesting, gameplay- or flavor-wise. I feel like I run into the former (and die) more often, whereas the latter I only see dead in my message logs.

[KoboldLord]

Dragon turtle. And make it shoot streams of steam everywhere as a breath weapon, to make it hard for flying players to hang back and pummel it with ranged attacks.

[twelwe]

"Rename orc warlords because they're more dangerous than orc warriors and they could be confused."

...no. Just no. If you can't see the difference between two monsters and/or don't bother to check, the death is completely your fault. It's not a problem with the game.

I hope Kirke sigmund roka kills you first next trunk

[twelwe]

as for the matter at hand i say nerf them all into baby alligator snapping turtles and make one of the guys to tell a story about them being a ` young race ` in the descrpition

[XuaXua]

These monsters have different names, colours, tiles, and even locations. If, when you see a monster, all you do to distinguish it is read the first nine letters of its name, I'd say it's your fault if it doesn't work.

Oh look, the other one came out to play too.

I eyeball the monster; it's an alligator bone structure, looks like an alligator skeleton tile and says alliga..." immediately switches to "yeah, that's an alligator".

Alligator Snapping Turtles, let alone Alligator Snapping Turtle Skeletons are obscure enough in the game, that it's instinctive to dismiss it as an alligator skeleton.

[Jeremiah]

The first time I saw an alligator snapping turtle, I at first thought it was a bug and that the names of two monsters had somehow been merged together.

So I agree that it should be renamed. Similarly if there were monsters called "blink frog griffon" or "hydra fire drake" they would be confusing in the same way.

[claws]

Oh look, the other one came out to play too.

Antagonism should not define an argument.

"Alligator skeleton" is a very odd way to describe the large quadruped skeleton tile, and in comparing with the alligator tile and the alligator snapping turtle tile shows few obvious even form-based connections. The four zombie type tiles are shared across potentially large categories of shape (see the two simulacrum tiles), and console uses the same two glyphs to cover everything from rat skeletons to harpy skeletons and ogre skeletons to the lernaean hydra's skeleton. One should always be discriminatory with a given zombie's identity; this is what x-v, the monster list, and messages are all for, proper awareness of one's surroundings and what is happening.

It's also odd to argue that the potential confusion between "warlord" and "warrior" has anything to do with monsters as prefixes.

There is most likely a base for altering the name of one or both of alligator snapping turtles and snapping turtles, while even strictly sticking with a more distinct species of turtle for one or both. This, however, should not be based solely because individuals are not familiar with an uncommon monster and are not cautious in dealing with it. They have explicitly different purposes (one is a common shoals minor threat while the other is a rare, deep shoals, potentially major threat, with noticably differienated stats), and the indiscriminant zombie use is an issue more with zombies then with said snapping turtles.

[JeffQyzt]

argument against: it's the name of a real thing only in the US

Alligator snapping turtles do not cease to be real when they leave the boundaries of the US. That's like saying that quokkas are not real outside of Australia.

Having faced actual an American Alligator Snapping Turtles in melee, I can vouch that the Crawl version completely unlike the real animal anyhow.

As opposed to, say, the real and Crawl version of quokkas, geckos, or alligators? Besides, these aren't American Alligator Snapping Turtles. They're Dungeon Alligator Snapping Turtles. They've been corrupted by the power of Zot!

[njvack]

As opposed to, say, the real and Crawl version of quokkas, geckos, or alligators?

Well, yeah, actually. I always imagined that I could beat up a quokka with a big ol' stick, but might get bitten in the process. With only a few exceptions, I kind of use natural animals as a gauge for the real-world badass-ness of my character. "Ah, porcupines are nothing to worry about, but yaks are still pretty tough." I know, I know: Crawl is not an RPG

And, well, most of the natural creatures have generic-enough names that gigantism seems OK, flavor-wise.

I like KL's proposal of the Dragon Turtle -- I can't think of any other monsters that use steam primarily to block ranged attacks. If you wanted to take the flavor a step further (though perhaps in the wrong direction call it a "Steam Turtle" and actually make it nonliving.

[nicolae]

Alligator snapping turtles do not cease to be real when they leave the boundaries of the US. That's like saying that quokkas are not real outside of Australia.

They aren't, though. Once removed from the Australia Field, quokkas turn into woodchucks.

[Bim]

+1(hundred million) for renaming.

I don't know why names are always such an issue with crawl, but it always seems that some people want to keep things that are OBVIOUSLY a little bit confusing instead of just changing them to something which isn't confusing for anyone else. Ok, I really get the point that everyone should read more and so on, but if it confuses a few players, there is definitely some confusion that could be easily avoided to make a better game rather than defending it for no other reason than to 'stick to your guns' about it.

I agree that it should be fantastical in nature, especially as a difficult beast.

[XuaXua]

Skeletal Alligator
and
Skeletal Alligator Snapping Turtle

Casual glance with all the busy on the screen, it's easy to accidentally dismiss, and normally that'd be fine because even if it gets to you, you'd notice from the damage, except that the AST has a different attack: it reaches. If you've casually dismissed it as a Skeletal Alligator or even a Skeletal Alligator Too Long;Don't Read, innate reaching isn't something you're going to consider.

[Deimos]

I think Bim has it right. The fact this thread exists is kind of a nice indicator that it is, indeed, confusing to some players. There really shouldn't be any argument once you have a couple people agreeing that it is confusing. Any arguing after that is more along the line of you berating the way they play rather the topic/suggestion itself, and IIRC Game Design Discussion isn't the place to berate people's level of skill.

[galehar]

OK, less arguing and more constructive suggestions. Rename them to what? I don't like the name, but I think it would be hard to come up with something better.
Or change the monster. I kinda like KL's dragon turtle suggestion.

[XuaXua]

I think the following series would work:

1 - buff regular Snapping Turtle to somewhere between itself and the Alligator Snapping Turtle to compensate for losing the AST.
2 - replace Alligator Snapping Turtle with the steam-blowing Dragon Turtle (make it Dragon-vulnerable? Are Komodo Dragons Dragon-vulnerable?) and make it slightly more rare.

Having Dragon in front of "Turtle" is a good big red danger flag.

[Deimos]

Luckily I don't think that there is any monster in the game called "Dragon". I think they were replaced with Fire Dragons? With any kind of dragon you are likely to read the entire name.

Regardless, I do think Minmay has a point. Its a useless monster right now, put in a place that already has enough monster types.

[One-Eyed Jack]

Dragons are still dragons, it's just their skins that had their name changed

[Sojiro]

Dragon Turtle that breathes steam... I've heard of that before.
Oh yeah, I heard of it from AD&D.

Personally I really don't see the need to change the "alligator snapping turtle" name, which is pretty cool. Confusing "alligator" with a name three time as long is pretty difficult. On the other hand, there are people who are making that mistake. Apparently. So changing it would reduce the confusion for those who don't really bother to read (which is somewhat understandable when one plays fast).
If it remains what it is, it should still be named "snapping turtle" since that's why it gets the reaching attack. "Spiked Snapping Turtle" is pretty descriptive, and "Prehistoric" and "Ancient" are two adjectives that are cool and mark it as clearly more dangerous. Any of those three would work.

A Dragon Turtle would be neat, but there is no need for them to replace the AST we have now. There's room to make it a significantly different monster, and a cool one to boot. More diversity would be nice, I feel.

[Sojiro]

Luckily I don't think that there is any monster in the game called "Dragon". I think they were replaced with Fire Dragons? With any kind of dragon you are likely to read the entire name.

I hope you are making a joke here.

[Grimm]

Luckily I don't think that there is any monster in the game called "Dragon". I think they were replaced with Fire Dragons? With any kind of dragon you are likely to read the entire name.

I hope you are making a joke here.

No, vanilla dragons are called fire dragons now, at least in trunk. It's a legitimate point.

Another vote for the steam turtle. If "dragon" is a problem just use another term. How about "steam"? There's already a steam dragon. Another suggestion is "kettle" or "teakettle turtle" - it blows steam like a kettle, geddit? Or "teapot turtle".

[Grimm]

Maybe it was changed back since the last time I played. I recall fighting "fire dragons" and finding "fire dragon hide".

[Blade]

You recall incorrectly. They have always been and will almost certainly always be "dragons," but they now drop "fire dragon hide" because some people decided that having a dragon armour called "dragon armour" was more confusing than dragons dropping fire dragon armour.

[Grimm]

I stand semi-corrected.

[XuaXua]

.....

[twelwe]

A Baby Alligator Snapping Turtle Shaped Shifter comes into view

[TwilightPhoenix]

A Baby Alligator Snapping Turtle Shaped Shifter Corpse Mimic comes into view

Fixed.

[mageykun]

A Baby Alligator Snapping Turtle Shaped Shifter Corpse Mimic comes into view

Fixed.

Oh my goodness, we need corpse mimics now. It's too hilariously awesome not to.

[Deimos]

First we need floor mimics.

[defen]

We need mimics to leave behind corpses, too. Then we could have a plausible infinite progression of **** corpse mimic corpse mimic corpse mimic.... for the occupant of a single tile.

[Bim]

Can we also have a 50% darts/stones to be mimics? And can mimics also stop being mimics and then you pick them up and then they jump out of your inventory and attack you when the tension level gets high? pleaaaasssseeeeeee.

Anyway, back to the point at hand,
I don't think they need a massive change, and I don't think the problem is that people just stop reading after the first word. I think it's just that it's moderately confusing to have two monsters called a similar name (not adjectivally like 'swamp dragon') and that it's a pretty terrible name as it makes little sense to me. You wouldn't call a horse a 'zebra running horse' would you? I'm sure there is such a thing in the real world, but the real world is hardly a good place to take cues from.

Anyway, I really think an adjective like 'prehistoric' or 'dire' or 'dour' or whatever would be a good way of separating it with absolutely minimal fuss and then we could go back to the important things in life such as deciphering ranged combat and bemoaning the loss of Mountain dwarves.

[Jeremiah]

New monster in 0.12: komodo dragon dragon

[claws]

Skeletal Alligator
and
Skeletal Alligator Snapping Turtle

Slight thread necromancy, but to briefly continue a trend of intermittent irreverency: I'm disappointed nobody pointed out that crawl uses "alligator skeleton" and "alligator snapping turtle skeleton", which makes this argument that "alligator [blah blah blah] skeleton" is confusable with "alligator skeleton". Coherency!

[sardonica]

Seems more like a CY forum post at this point

[XuaXua]

Skeletal Alligator
and
Skeletal Alligator Snapping Turtle

Slight thread necromancy, but to briefly continue a trend of intermittent irreverency: I'm disappointed nobody pointed out that crawl uses "alligator skeleton" and "alligator snapping turtle skeleton", which makes this argument that "alligator [blah blah blah] skeleton" is confusable with "alligator skeleton". Coherency!

Thank you!

Actually, for coherency as you point out, it makes the argument that

"alligator s{too long don't read } skeleton" is confusable with
"alligator skeleton"
with identical tiles in the abyss with several dozen other monsters around, including a much more visually dangerous angel.

I knew something seemed off with my preceding skeletal argument.

So, thanks with sincerity!

[XuaXua]

Thread r-r-r-rise from the grave!

I do not feel it ridiculous to request separate tiles for standard skeletal/zombie beast (use existing) and a skeletal/zombie beast with reaching?

I strongly feel that, visually, these two things should have separate tiles.

[Roderic]

FYI, chelydra vs macroclemys genus

http://www.chelydra.org/common_alligator_snapping_turtle.html

Vanilla snapping turtle, spiked snapping turtle